Projectile Hate

Projectile Hate

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Posted by: Unholy Pillager.3791

Unholy Pillager.3791

Is it just me, or is projectile hate getting seriously out of control? Even earlier in the game’s progression, melee range fighting was dominant. Much of this was due to the point control that is the focus of conquest, but not all of it. There were projectile reflecting/destroying/blocking skills and effects, but they weren’t overwhelmingly numerous or common.

However, that seems to be changing very rapidly. Even professions which didn’t previously have much (if any) projectile hate are getting considerable amounts of it in recent updates (necromancer) and with the expansion (ranger). Yes, you can use melee weaponry to still deal damage…but look at a special case: engineers. At least 80% of an engineer’s damage is completely negated by projectile hate. This will get better in HoT, but not too much better…the hammer is a utility and defensive weapon, not a damage one, and so most of an engineer’s damage is still going to be attached to grenade kit. I have similar concerns for staff elementalists, because they don’t have a melee range weapon swap available.

What can be done about it? Well, I think that the best option would be to make projectile destroying abilities not function when the target is within melee range. This would allow counterplay, rather than allowing a necromancer to be invulnerable 8 seconds out of 20 when fighting an engineer or staff elementalist.

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Posted by: Belial.9350

Belial.9350

It’s only fair considering how easy power ranger and necro are when it comes to landing damage.

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Posted by: Unholy Pillager.3791

Unholy Pillager.3791

It’s only fair considering how easy power ranger and necro are when it comes to landing damage.

My point was that in making counterplay to that, they are destroying engineers completely. Not only are grenades harder to land than melee attacks, they also have less defensive utility attached to them. On top of that, shutting them down is now faceroll easy. That is a balance problem, doubly so because engineers have no melee damage weapon to use as recourse.

Edit: besides, if a ranger is attacking you with their longbow in melee range and beats you, you were outplayed.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Necromancer received it because they were literally the only profession without projectile defense, which is important not only in PvP but also in quite a bit of PvE. They are still the only profession without projectile reflection, until Revenant comes out (they also lack Reflection, but do have good blocking options).

And staff eles are hardly incapable of hurting a Necro hiding in a CPC. Lava Font and Meteor Shower don’t care one bit about projectile hate, for example. A lot of ele staff skills don’t.

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Posted by: Unholy Pillager.3791

Unholy Pillager.3791

Necromancer received it because they were literally the only profession without projectile defense, which is important not only in PvP but also in quite a bit of PvE. They are still the only profession without projectile reflection, until Revenant comes out (they also lack Reflection, but do have good blocking options).

…Did you even read my suggestion? Because you didn’t address it.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Necromancer received it because they were literally the only profession without projectile defense, which is important not only in PvP but also in quite a bit of PvE. They are still the only profession without projectile reflection, until Revenant comes out (they also lack Reflection, but do have good blocking options).

…Did you even read my suggestion? Because you didn’t address it.

You’re right, I didn’t. And the answer is…not so much, no. Tool kit (Magnet!) and bomb kit don’t care, for example. Thumper/Flame Turret/Turret detonations don’t care. Flamethrower even can work out. Engineers have tools to deal with projectile hate, after all. It might behoove you to work some into your build if you keep running into the same issue.

Hint: Tool kit is very good regardless of the presence of projectile hate.

Also, in the case of Necro projectile destruction specifically, it also applies a long weakness on the Necro himself that nearly matches the field’s duration. Necros already don’t have much in the way of dodging, so you can capitalize on it.

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(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)

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Posted by: Stilgar.6437

Stilgar.6437

yeah, this could be a problem. its not so bad now and im playing pew pew ranger for the most part. some classes have it but uptime is low, there are ways around it. Just counterplay. It works the other way around too, fighting at distance with projectiles you avoid lots of melee defences like blind, KBs and such.

but im seeing tons of projectile hate coming with hot. Revenant has 50% uptime on hammer alone i think, druids gets that wall (that you can double with quickdraw), dd has it on autoattack etc. almost everyone is getting it. That could really be too much of a hard counter for many builds that just cant get away from using projectiles. We will see. I think some of it will have to be rebalanced like the hammer but too early to tell.

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Posted by: Unholy Pillager.3791

Unholy Pillager.3791

Necromancer received it because they were literally the only profession without projectile defense, which is important not only in PvP but also in quite a bit of PvE. They are still the only profession without projectile reflection, until Revenant comes out (they also lack Reflection, but do have good blocking options).

…Did you even read my suggestion? Because you didn’t address it.

You’re right, I didn’t. And the answer is…not so much, no. Tool kit (Magnet!) and bomb kit don’t care, for example. Thumper/Flame Turret/Turret detonations don’t care. Flamethrower even can work out. Engineers have tools to deal with projectile hate, after all. It might behoove you to work some into your build if you keep running into the same issue.

Hint: Tool kit is very good regardless of the presence of projectile hate.

Also, in the case of Necro projectile destruction specifically, it also applies a long weakness on the Necro himself that nearly matches the field’s duration. Necros already don’t have much in the way of dodging, so you can capitalize on it.

Turrets are terrible (except for healing turret, but I shouldn’t be forced to detonate that in the hope that the necro will stay next to it, just so I can actually deal some damage).

I do take toolkit: the magnet doesn’t always work due to terrain issues, the auto attack is mediocre, and the prybar is telegraphed.

I didn’t think that flamethrower would bypass that (after all, blunderbuss doesn’t, and it isn’t considered a projectile), but I haven’t tried it either. Bombs always seem inferior to grenades outside of specialized applications, and they’re easy to kite. I guess that the problem I’m seeing is that, while most professions have higher damage (or at least comparable damage) on the weapons that bypass projectile hate, engineers don’t.

At any rate, it does seem to me as if they want to make long ranged weapons useless for most of the game, and that’s pretty frustrating in and of itself.

Edit: Also, for necro: my brother didn’t mention a self-weakness when he was talking about how good they made the skill…he was just mentioning that it makes it really easy for him to 1v2 compared to before, especially if his opponents don’t know what they’re doing.

(edited by Unholy Pillager.3791)

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Posted by: BrickFurious.7169

BrickFurious.7169

Drarnor pretty much hit the nail on the head. Staff eles can deal with projectile hate fairly easily through lava font, meteor shower, basically any of the non-auto attack skills on staff. Engis really should slot some kind of melee option (tool kit, flamethrower, bomb kit) and if you really hate all of those, then wait for Scrapper so you can have a hammer. Tool kit auto attack hits like a truck on power engi, btw.

The projectile hate they’re creating is necessary for WvW, where melee weapons are currently struggling quite a bit.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Edit: Also, for necro: my brother didn’t mention a self-weakness when he was talking about how good they made the skill…he was just mentioning that it makes it really easy for him to 1v2 compared to before, especially if his opponents don’t know what they’re doing.

Probably because the Weakness on it isn’t new. The skill is much better now, for sure, but it does have drawbacks for the Necro. If he traits it to go down to a 20 second cooldown, he also Cripples himself.

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Posted by: Aomine.5012

Aomine.5012

If they add so many reflects and projectile blocks to all classes, how about adding a “reflection penetration” as mechanic as counter-play.

Seems like all the new specialization and class has immense access to long duration low CD reflects. It’s only fair that classes that rely on projectiles to get something like “reflection penetration”.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

If they add so many reflects and projectile blocks to all classes, how about adding a “reflection penetration” as mechanic as counter-play.

Seems like all the new specialization and class has immense access to long duration low CD reflects. It’s only fair that classes that rely on projectiles to get something like “reflection penetration”.

Although it’s not stated as such, unblockable attacks do ignore most projectile hate.

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Posted by: Aomine.5012

Aomine.5012

If they add so many reflects and projectile blocks to all classes, how about adding a “reflection penetration” as mechanic as counter-play.

Seems like all the new specialization and class has immense access to long duration low CD reflects. It’s only fair that classes that rely on projectiles to get something like “reflection penetration”.

Although it’s not stated as such, unblockable attacks do ignore most projectile hate.

I have yet to see any unblockable projectiles in this game.
Maybe they should start adding them.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

If they add so many reflects and projectile blocks to all classes, how about adding a “reflection penetration” as mechanic as counter-play.

Seems like all the new specialization and class has immense access to long duration low CD reflects. It’s only fair that classes that rely on projectiles to get something like “reflection penetration”.

Although it’s not stated as such, unblockable attacks do ignore most projectile hate.

I have yet to see any unblockable projectiles in this game.
Maybe they should start adding them.

Dark Path and Mirror Blade are the only ones that come to mind as being natively unblockable, but Warrior has Signet of Might to make anything they want unblockable. Revenant can also make anything unblockable via Devestation trait line or Shiro.

There’s not much, but it is there.

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

If they add so many reflects and projectile blocks to all classes, how about adding a “reflection penetration” as mechanic as counter-play.

Seems like all the new specialization and class has immense access to long duration low CD reflects. It’s only fair that classes that rely on projectiles to get something like “reflection penetration”.

Although it’s not stated as such, unblockable attacks do ignore most projectile hate.

I have yet to see any unblockable projectiles in this game.
Maybe they should start adding them.

Dark Path and Mirror Blade are the only ones that come to mind as being natively unblockable, but Warrior has Signet of Might to make anything they want unblockable. Revenant can also make anything unblockable via Devestation trait line or Shiro.

There’s not much, but it is there.

Also, shadowshot.

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Posted by: Aomine.5012

Aomine.5012

If they add so many reflects and projectile blocks to all classes, how about adding a “reflection penetration” as mechanic as counter-play.

Seems like all the new specialization and class has immense access to long duration low CD reflects. It’s only fair that classes that rely on projectiles to get something like “reflection penetration”.

Although it’s not stated as such, unblockable attacks do ignore most projectile hate.

I have yet to see any unblockable projectiles in this game.
Maybe they should start adding them.

Dark Path and Mirror Blade are the only ones that come to mind as being natively unblockable, but Warrior has Signet of Might to make anything they want unblockable. Revenant can also make anything unblockable via Devestation trait line or Shiro.

There’s not much, but it is there.

Funny thing is those classes who have unblockable projectiles are those who don’t even rely on projectiles lol…

Balance. (chuckle)

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Posted by: Unholy Pillager.3791

Unholy Pillager.3791

If they add so many reflects and projectile blocks to all classes, how about adding a “reflection penetration” as mechanic as counter-play.

Seems like all the new specialization and class has immense access to long duration low CD reflects. It’s only fair that classes that rely on projectiles to get something like “reflection penetration”.

Although it’s not stated as such, unblockable attacks do ignore most projectile hate.

I have yet to see any unblockable projectiles in this game.
Maybe they should start adding them.

Dark Path and Mirror Blade are the only ones that come to mind as being natively unblockable, but Warrior has Signet of Might to make anything they want unblockable. Revenant can also make anything unblockable via Devestation trait line or Shiro.

There’s not much, but it is there.

Also, shadowshot.

That’s just a blind, though, for the damage the dagger needs to hit (and that is not unblockable, as I recall).

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Also, shadowshot.

That’s just a blind, though, for the damage the dagger needs to hit (and that is not unblockable, as I recall).

It is a melee attack, though, which would ignore projectile hate anyway.

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Posted by: Unholy Pillager.3791

Unholy Pillager.3791

Also, shadowshot.

That’s just a blind, though, for the damage the dagger needs to hit (and that is not unblockable, as I recall).

It is a melee attack, though, which would ignore projectile hate anyway.

Yes, but the real concern is still those professions (or rather profession, since it is mostly engineer) that don’t have much in the way of melee damage or non-projectile ranged damage.