Guild Wars 2

Behold. After a lot of rage inducing matches, I come bearing proof that your placement in Ranked PvP is based on RNG matchmaking, rather than skill. In the course of 100 games, I gained roughly +300 MMR to reach Gold. I’m not strong enough to carry teams myself, so I had to rely on lady-luck to bless me with a competent party a majority of the matches I played. My win/loss ratio was ~60/40.

Now I know people will say “Well Helseth tanked his alt and made it to Legendary”. There’s a fallacy to his attempt, because he’s one of the top 10 players in the game. Of course he’s going to carry because his skill level far exceeds that of your typical Bronze or Silver plebs. Helseth did not prove Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that ESL players can beat it. The rest of the players in PvP will not be able to carry single handedly to make up for poor teammates.

Now realize that while lady luck can giveth, she can also taketh away. A player could very much lose enough matches to drop from Gold to Bronze in 100 games too. That doesn’t automatically mean his true skill level is Bronze. That most likely means that his poor teammates dragged him down, and his gameplay wasn’t able to compensate for their shortcomings. Having said that, until Anet can get away from MMR based on team play, no one will really know what their true levels are.

There is also one big fallacy your argument is making, You completely eliminate the fact of getting better.

ESL level is way different yes, but human capability can also reach at that level. I do not play as much anymore due to IRL stuff but trust me, countless games and duels, watching videos, making your own team, joining AGs (Even if you LOSE) will make you a better player than most.

I can remember Caspian losing most 1v1s with Chaos A or Rylock but now look where he is.

StickerHappy.8052:

There is also one big fallacy your argument is making, You completely eliminate the fact of getting better.

ESL level is way different yes, but human capability can also reach at that level. I do not play as much anymore due to IRL stuff but trust me, countless games and duels, watching videos, making your own team, joining AGs (Even if you LOSE) will make you a better player than most.

I can remember Caspian losing most 1v1s with Chaos A or Rylock but now look where he is.

Incorrect. My gameplay is the same was it was when I dropped to the cusp of Bronze. I play an Engi, and I mash my skills whenever they’re off cooldown. I did not get better. I got better teammates.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

StickerHappy.8052:

There is also one big fallacy your argument is making, You completely eliminate the fact of getting better.

ESL level is way different yes, but human capability can also reach at that level. I do not play as much anymore due to IRL stuff but trust me, countless games and duels, watching videos, making your own team, joining AGs (Even if you LOSE) will make you a better player than most.

I can remember Caspian losing most 1v1s with Chaos A or Rylock but now look where he is.

Incorrect. My gameplay is the same was it was when I dropped to the cusp of Bronze. I play an Engi, and I mash my skills whenever they’re off cooldown. I did not get better. I got better teammates.

You will not drop to bronze (except for decay) if you are really skilled. We have gone through this multiple times in all seasons. If you are really good enough, you will not be in bronze (atleast)

Mashing your skills off cooldown? <———————- This is your problem right here.

StickerHappy.8052:

You will not drop to bronze (except for decay) if you are really skilled. We have gone through this multiple times in all seasons. If you are really good enough, you will not be in bronze (atleast)

Mashing your skills off cooldown? <———————- This is your problem right here.

I was 1 loss away from Bronze, and now I just reached Gold. If MMR is based on skill, then I wouldn’t have been pushed to ~1050, and I shouldn’t be at 1350 if my problem is mashing buttons.

Hmm says he plays engie but I all I saw last night was a Thief always on the ground every two seconds. And the fact he was in gold last night not at the cusp of Bronze…

Smooth Penguin.5294:

StickerHappy.8052:

You will not drop to bronze (except for decay) if you are really skilled. We have gone through this multiple times in all seasons. If you are really good enough, you will not be in bronze (atleast)

Mashing your skills off cooldown? <———————- This is your problem right here.

I was 1 loss away from Bronze, and now I just reached Gold. If MMR is based on skill, then I wouldn’t have been pushed to ~1050, and I shouldn’t be at 1350 if my problem is mashing buttons.

You do know at this point of time gold is trash right?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm says he plays engie but I all I saw last night was a Thief always on the ground every two seconds. And the fact he was in gold last night not at the cusp of Bronze…

I think you got the wrong player in mind mate.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

StickerHappy.8052:

There is also one big fallacy your argument is making, You completely eliminate the fact of getting better.

ESL level is way different yes, but human capability can also reach at that level. I do not play as much anymore due to IRL stuff but trust me, countless games and duels, watching videos, making your own team, joining AGs (Even if you LOSE) will make you a better player than most.

I can remember Caspian losing most 1v1s with Chaos A or Rylock but now look where he is.

Incorrect. My gameplay is the same was it was when I dropped to the cusp of Bronze. I play an Engi, and I mash my skills whenever they’re off cooldown. I did not get better. I got better teammates.

I dunno, seems you’re on par with most of gold…

Smooth Penguin.5294:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm says he plays engie but I all I saw last night was a Thief always on the ground every two seconds. And the fact he was in gold last night not at the cusp of Bronze…

I think you got the wrong player in mind mate.

Also judging from your screenie, if you have 6k top stats, you are only around 2.5k games to 3.5k games total played in pvp. Pretty sure there is still a lot of room for improvement.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm says he plays engie but I all I saw last night was a Thief always on the ground every two seconds. And the fact he was in gold last night not at the cusp of Bronze…

I think you got the wrong player in mind mate.

Nope, you were on your Thief Penguin, Account Name Smooth Penguin.5294. Last match I played with you on the map was Battle of Kyhlo.
Sorry it was Thursday night so the 19th

apharma.3741:

I dunno, seems you’re on par with most of gold…

If that’s the case, then why does Anet even have Ranked PvP? It’s disheartening that Gold tier is meaningless.

StickerHappy.8052:

Also judging from your screenie, if you have 6k top stats, you are only around 2.5k games to 3.5k games total played in pvp. Pretty sure there is still a lot of room for improvement.

Most of that is from Hotjoin daily farm maps I think. When I play something with AOE heals, I pop it on top Skyhammer, so I get bonus stats from heals.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sorry it was Thursday night so the 19th

Yeah, that’s when I swapped to D/D to test out some Condi builds. Lost 2 in a row. But I wasn’t Gold, I was T3 Silver.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Helseth did not prove Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that ESL players can beat it.

Helseth did not prove that Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that Elo Hell can be beaten.

K.

Fay.2357:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Helseth did not prove Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that ESL players can beat it.

Helseth did not prove that Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that Elo Hell can be beaten.

K.

I have to say, the logical leaps and disconnects some of these players make is Legendary Tier. Too bad that level of skill doesn’t carry in-game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

apharma.3741:

I dunno, seems you’re on par with most of gold…

If that’s the case, then why does Anet even have Ranked PvP? It’s disheartening that Gold tier is meaningless.

StickerHappy.8052:

Also judging from your screenie, if you have 6k top stats, you are only around 2.5k games to 3.5k games total played in pvp. Pretty sure there is still a lot of room for improvement.

Most of that is from Hotjoin daily farm maps I think. When I play something with AOE heals, I pop it on top Skyhammer, so I get bonus stats from heals.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sorry it was Thursday night so the 19th

Yeah, that’s when I swapped to D/D to test out some Condi builds. Lost 2 in a row. But I wasn’t Gold, I was T3 Silver.

So you mean to say you have less total games played right?

There are no random() calls in the matchmaking algorithm.

Sykper.6583:

Fay.2357:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Helseth did not prove Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that ESL players can beat it.

Helseth did not prove that Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that Elo Hell can be beaten.

K.

I have to say, the logical leaps and disconnects some of these players make is Legendary Tier. Too bad that level of skill doesn’t carry in-game.

I think you guys threw out your insults too quick but then again I may be wrong when I say you misconstrued what was said.

Helseth didn’t prove that Elo hell can be beaten (for every day players), he proved that he can beat it (at an ESL level of play). I think that’s what was said. Not what you guys said. I could be wrong though.

sephiroth.4217:

Sykper.6583:

Fay.2357:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Helseth did not prove Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that ESL players can beat it.

Helseth did not prove that Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that Elo Hell can be beaten.

K.

I have to say, the logical leaps and disconnects some of these players make is Legendary Tier. Too bad that level of skill doesn’t carry in-game.

I think you guys threw out your insults too quick but then again I may be wrong when I say you misconstrued what was said.

Helseth didn’t prove that Elo hell can be beaten (for every day players), he proved that he can beat it (at an ESL level of play). I think that’s what was said. Not what you guys said. I could be wrong though.

Again, I consider myself an everyday player before, (almost 7k games now) and clearly this ELO hell can be beaten with casual players such as myself, especially if you duo Q.

StickerHappy.8052:

sephiroth.4217:

Sykper.6583:

Fay.2357:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Helseth did not prove Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that ESL players can beat it.

Helseth did not prove that Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that Elo Hell can be beaten.

K.

I have to say, the logical leaps and disconnects some of these players make is Legendary Tier. Too bad that level of skill doesn’t carry in-game.

I think you guys threw out your insults too quick but then again I may be wrong when I say you misconstrued what was said.

Helseth didn’t prove that Elo hell can be beaten (for every day players), he proved that he can beat it (at an ESL level of play). I think that’s what was said. Not what you guys said. I could be wrong though.

Again, I consider myself an everyday player before, (almost 7k games now) and clearly this ELO hell can be beaten with casual players such as myself, especially if you duo Q.

I’ve personally addressed the duo-queue with a separate discussion/thread of mine, but beyond that I sincerely mean what I said. Despite the rare and noticed MM issues that the devs are working on for Season 6, which are a very low % of games, MM right now is affixing the appropriate rating and it is very accurate.

I do not know the extent of which players will accept that they might not be as good as they think they are, compared to what evidence needs to come out suggesting it to be the case. But, from what I have gathered about Matchmaking in general this season after an appropriate amount of games, I can definitely say the ratings are fairly accurate. I don’t gloat from a standpoint of a Legendary player, I am not that good, but as someone who made a stupid mistake one day losing a lot of rating and thus spent time getting that rating back to get back to my proper rating.

Ultimately, I am sick and tired of these players not realizing the reality of their position, making attempts to improve, and eventually coming forth with this knowledge. Despite the low population, Matchmaking in normal instances is making fair matches that you are responsible for. No one wins every match.

Sykper.6583:

StickerHappy.8052:

sephiroth.4217:

Sykper.6583:

Fay.2357:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Helseth did not prove Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that ESL players can beat it.

Helseth did not prove that Elo Hell can be beaten. He proved that Elo Hell can be beaten.

K.

I have to say, the logical leaps and disconnects some of these players make is Legendary Tier. Too bad that level of skill doesn’t carry in-game.

I think you guys threw out your insults too quick but then again I may be wrong when I say you misconstrued what was said.

Helseth didn’t prove that Elo hell can be beaten (for every day players), he proved that he can beat it (at an ESL level of play). I think that’s what was said. Not what you guys said. I could be wrong though.

Again, I consider myself an everyday player before, (almost 7k games now) and clearly this ELO hell can be beaten with casual players such as myself, especially if you duo Q.

I’ve personally addressed the duo-queue with a separate discussion/thread of mine, but beyond that I sincerely mean what I said. Despite the rare and noticed MM issues that the devs are working on for Season 6, which are a very low % of games, MM right now is affixing the appropriate rating and it is very accurate.

I do not know the extent of which players will accept that they might not be as good as they think they are, compared to what evidence needs to come out suggesting it to be the case. But, from what I have gathered about Matchmaking in general this season after an appropriate amount of games, I can definitely say the ratings are fairly accurate. I don’t gloat from a standpoint of a Legendary player, I am not that good, but as someone who made a stupid mistake one day losing a lot of rating and thus spent time getting that rating back to get back to my proper rating.

Ultimately, I am sick and tired of these players not realizing the reality of their position, making attempts to improve, and eventually coming forth with this knowledge. Despite the low population, Matchmaking in normal instances is making fair matches that you are responsible for. No one wins every match.

Imo, the only exception to your claim and mines is the Placement matches, AFKs/DCs/Throws. But essentially these are the only factors that will prevent you from advancing.

Well, Class stacking is a problem too.

Sykper.6583:

I do not know the extent of which players will accept that they might not be as good as they think they are, compared to what evidence needs to come out suggesting it to be the case. But, from what I have gathered about Matchmaking in general this season after an appropriate amount of games, I can definitely say the ratings are fairly accurate.

I’ve been called a Bronze pleb, and now I’m a Gold pleb. While I personally see myself in the high Silver range, the fact remains that I did not carry my team in 3 out of every 5 games I played. RNG blessed me. Had the RNG matchmaking gone the other way, I would have dropped into deep Bronze.

Skill plays a major part only in certain situations. If your skill level is far beyond that of your tier, then you can make the difference in a match, as Helseth’s kitty alt proved. Otherwise, you’re at the mercy of your teammates skills, or lack there of.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sykper.6583:

I do not know the extent of which players will accept that they might not be as good as they think they are, compared to what evidence needs to come out suggesting it to be the case. But, from what I have gathered about Matchmaking in general this season after an appropriate amount of games, I can definitely say the ratings are fairly accurate.

I’ve been called a Bronze pleb, and now I’m a Gold pleb. While I personally see myself in the high Silver range, the fact remains that I did not carry my team in 3 out of every 5 games I played. RNG blessed me. Had the RNG matchmaking gone the other way, I would have dropped into deep Bronze.

Skill plays a major part only in certain situations. If your skill level is far beyond that of your tier, then you can make the difference in a match, as Helseth’s kitty alt proved. Otherwise, you’re at the mercy of your teammates skills, or lack there of.

Well you see “RNG Blessed me” is very misleading. Have you ever though that you might have played better (did the right things, rotated better) on the games you won? (Not discrediting you for having better teammates) Again, without proper documentation through videos, this will be very hard to prove.

StickerHappy.8052:

Well you see “RNG Blessed me” is very misleading. Have you ever though that you might have played better (did the right things, rotated better) on the games you won? (Not discrediting you for having better teammates) Again, without proper documentation through videos, this will be very hard to prove.

I play good in nearly all my matches. I can count on my hand how many times I’ve screwed up and didn’t pull my own weight. That’s why I know it’s my teammates.

Sins.4782:

There are no random() calls in the matchmaking algorithm.

The random variable(s) is(are) the player(s), team composition, map, and time.

StickerHappy.8052:

You will not drop to bronze (except for decay) if you are really skilled. We have gone through this multiple times in all seasons. If you are really good enough, you will not be in bronze (atleast)

Mashing your skills off cooldown? <———————- This is your problem right here.

Yes, it’s possible. I posted it in Helseth’s thread already. I’m gold 3 on my main and dropped into bronze on my 2nd account and I can’t get out any more.

Stats:
account 1 (gold 2-3)
253 games, 139 wins
account 2 (bronze 3)
222 games, 100 wins

With account 2 I started in gold 3 after 8:2 in placement and started with a 10 or 11 loss streak – I didn’t play good, but also had teams throwing matches, disconnecting players and lost games were i fought 1v3 while my team still lost one or both of our bases or couldnt take one.
After around 80 games with around 30% win rate I was stuck at bronze. My win rate got better, I got some win streaks where I was able to carry teams or where my teams were just good and players could win 1v1 at least. Still I can’t get my 2nd account out of bronze. I win 2-3 games and get around 30-35 points, lose 1-2 games for 24-28 and basically start anew. At this rate it will take me another 200 games to get into silver 3 or even gold.

So there is a huge difference between my first and my second account. I play the same class and build on both accounts and do some games on a third (about 40 games now) that got into silver recently.

So why is my skill on account 1 and 3 higher and I totally suck on account 2?
The only difference between my accounts is the history of old seasons.

account 1 was ruby or diamond and I almost didn’t play but had a 50+% win rate
account 2 was ruby forever and I lost a huge amount of games in season 3 (many loss streaks), didn’t play in season 4
Account 3 is new and has no pvp history

So, the only reason I see for getting really bad matchups on account 2 is the match history from previous seasons.

shagwell.1349:

StickerHappy.8052:

You will not drop to bronze (except for decay) if you are really skilled. We have gone through this multiple times in all seasons. If you are really good enough, you will not be in bronze (atleast)

Mashing your skills off cooldown? <———————- This is your problem right here.

Yes, it’s possible. I posted it in Helseth’s thread already. I’m gold 3 on my main and dropped into bronze on my 2nd account and I can’t get out any more.

Stats:
account 1 (gold 2-3)
253 games, 139 wins
account 2 (bronze 3)
222 games, 100 wins

With account 2 I started in gold 3 after 8:2 in placement and started with a 10 or 11 loss streak – I didn’t play good, but also had teams throwing matches, disconnecting players and lost games were i fought 1v3 while my team still lost one or both of our bases or couldnt take one.
After around 80 games with around 30% win rate I was stuck at bronze. My win rate got better, I got some win streaks where I was able to carry teams or where my teams were just good and players could win 1v1 at least. Still I can’t get my 2nd account out of bronze. I win 2-3 games and get around 30-35 points, lose 1-2 games for 24-28 and basically start anew. At this rate it will take me another 200 games to get into silver 3 or even gold.

So there is a huge difference between my first and my second account. I play the same class and build on both accounts and do some games on a third (about 40 games now) that got into silver recently.

So why is my skill on account 1 and 3 higher and I totally suck on account 2?
The only difference between my accounts is the history of old seasons.

account 1 was ruby or diamond and I almost didn’t play but had a 50+% win rate
account 2 was ruby forever and I lost a huge amount of games in season 3 (many loss streaks), didn’t play in season 4
Account 3 is new and has no pvp history

So, the only reason I see for getting really bad matchups on account 2 is the match history from previous seasons.

You answered that yourself.. With proper skill, I would not even fathom to think that how do you guys need 250+ games to be stuck in gold or bronze. I have no idea how this happens. With this amount of games and proper skill, this sheer number would at least be in plat.

Also, I am afraid to say that IMO, Placements really did matter a lot to be honest. What was your standing on Placements on Account 1? And… were the matches complete blowouts? (aside from the throws). If these were close matches, I would say MM is still working well.

7:3 on account 1.

So, what you are saying is that the sheer number of games makes players legendary not their skill?
Sorry, I’m a mediocre gold player and my winrate is where it should be at around 50%.

Still that doesn’t answer the question. Why is one account worse then the two others. I will surely make it into gold with account 3 if I put some effort into it and it will take a lot games less.
Something in the matchmaking does not function properly and that’s what I would call an “mmr hell”.

My stats from yesterday on the “kittened up – account”.
10 games played, 6 wins, 4 losses.
6 wins with a total of 72 points
4 losses with a total of – 48 points

So, i basically made 24 in 10 games by getting 10-14 points per game (on my other accounts the lowest score was 12 points for a win and I sometimes got 20)

Matches I lose mostly look like this:

shagwell.1349:

7:3 on account 1.

So, what you are saying is that the sheer number of games makes players legendary not their skill?
Sorry, I’m a mediocre gold player and my winrate is where it should be at around 50%.

Still that doesn’t answer the question. Why is one account worse then the two others. I will surely make it into gold with account 3 if I put some effort into it and it will take a lot games less.
Something in the matchmaking does not function properly and that’s what I would call an “mmr hell”.

My stats from yesterday on the “kittened up – account”.
10 games played, 6 wins, 4 losses.
6 wins with a total of 72 points
4 losses with a total of – 48 points

So, i basically made 24 in 10 games by getting 10-14 points per game (on my other accounts the lowest score was 12 points for a win and I sometimes got 20)

Matches I lose mostly look like this:

Ah okay gotcha.

What I mean by the number of games is —- Yes skill matters, but if you are really “plat material” you would not need 250+ games for the MM to correct itself and place you where you rightfully place. Do we both agree on this?

Next, I might be wrong but this has been discussed here on the forums, I think people lose more than they win sometimes, and that we have no idea how the MM calculates specifically since we do not see individual MMR. Maybe you are unlucky (just by coincidence) that the games you won are vs Lower rated players while the games you lost are also vs lower rated players (lower than you) so you lose a lot more.

Finally, you did mention that Account 2 had a lot of people DCs, throwing matches right? If those did not happen, your account 2 would be in gold or close to gold which then only gives you a slight difference from the number of games played account 1 vs account 2. Plus, you did lose a lot of Placement matches (they mattered a lot more than we knew) making you start with a handicap with terrible players (I Did too) so skewing the losses you had.

I would imagine if you did 7-3 on your placements, thus giving you a higher base MMR (meaning you would place around t2-t3 silver or atleast t3 bronze) and atleast get better matches, I would still believe your account 2 would be atleast the same spot as your Account 1.

Yeah, that’s the main problem. We don’t know how the mmr really works and “how are teams created”.
And I guess that may lead – under some circumstances – to terrible matchups and losing streaks.
My guess is that this problem is somehow related to the number of games, the matchmaking trying to create “fair” games and the lack of players in a certain mmr range.

shagwell.1349:

Yeah, that’s the main problem. We don’t know how the mmr really works and “how are teams created”.
And I guess that may lead – under some circumstances – to terrible matchups and losing streaks.
My guess is that this problem is somehow related to the number of games, the matchmaking trying to create “fair” games and the lack of players in a certain mmr range.

The devs posted the sudo code for it. Not sure what you don’t know.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Smooth Penguin, maybe you are a gold-tier player in terms of overall skill. The real question becomes whether if you’ll be able to hit platinum or not.

shagwell.1349:

Yes, it’s possible. I posted it in Helseth’s thread already. I’m gold 3 on my main and dropped into bronze on my 2nd account and I can’t get out any more.

I haven’t experienced it as egregiously as this, but I will say it is much harder to move up divisions compared to how it was toward the beginning of the season. After my placements I finished in gold 3. It wasn’t really hard to push up into platinum, capping out somewhere around 1800. I felt that’s probably about the highest I’d get. I’m blind as kitten and I was mechanically very rusty when I returned to the game. My build was also completely wrong for a while, so I went through some ups and downs—but I’ve spent the vast majority of the season in platinum.

Unfortunately I fell out of platinum about a week or so ago after a string of REALLY bad games and poor performance on my part. Like an idiot I thought mashing solo-queue on my engineer would just naturally fix the problem. Instead what I learned from that experience is that solo-queuing on engineer, especially during off-peak hours, is a hilariously efficient way to tank your rating, having at one point fallen to gold 2.

I’m still reaping the stupidity of that moment, doing what I can to climb out of gold and back into platinum, but the rate in which I am progressing is far slower than the rate it took at the beginning of the season, and it isn’t just because MMR fluctuation is more controlled at this point.

Just to make it clear: I never really believed in “Elo hell.” I’ve always thought player skill naturally fluctuated over time (in ways better and worse), and it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to win 60%+ of their games to pass through divisions. But what I’ve experienced in these two weeks in gold comes about as close to what I’d imagine “Elo hell” to be, and I am now a firm believer that it to some capacity exists.

Gold 3 is in this weird position where you’re high enough to get queued versus literally top 10 players but you’re low enough to where you’re thrown into games with keyboard turners. I’ll have a few games where everyone knows what they’re doing and things go smoothly, sometimes winning but sometimes losing—only to have a complete blowout match where I’m 1v2ing a necro and revenant at far (neither of which I have much business winning a 1v1 against when well-played as a scrapper), or spending the entire game picking my teammates up from the floor.

There’s very little match-to-match consistency, which makes games feel incredibly easy at times but incredibly difficult at others. This problem is only further exacerbated by the low population due to the season ending soon and most fair-weathers having gotten their ascended armor already. You end up seeing a lot of the same names and faces match after match, and when it’s the keyboard turners on your own team it feels absolutely hopeless and frustrating.

The only way I’ve really managed to get through gold was by literally blocking problem players and staggering my queue times to avoid them. I’m now probably about five wins out of platinum, and while it’s nice to steadily see my win/loss rating even out, I can’t say that I’m honestly playing any better or worse than I was at 1800 despite being 200 rating lower.

The matches just feel off.

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but I am hoping it will do something to the discussion.

I got my Legendary backpack a week ago, managed to get to gold1. I stopped playing and played again yesterday and I had a decay so I was playing in bronce.

I dunno how matchmaking works when you have decay but before this I had a 50/50 or even more a 60/50 winrate. Yesterday first match was a blowout, my team lost with 120/500 and everyone in my team yelled at eachother instead of playing. The next 4 (I think it was) matches after I have a winning streak, I would have won another two matches in that streak if it wasnt for leavers. Now I am on mid Gold2.

Also I must add that when I started this season, after my 10 matches I was dropped on Gold2 I lost a lot of matches (Becouse of bad teammates in my opinion) I fell down to silver1. After that I started winning more again and well then last week I ended up on Gold1. Most games I play are blowout matches iether for my team or the other team, but I should not blame MM for that becouse when it’s starts going bad for your team there are always someone who goes AFK.

Does MM work? Is this how it is supposed to be?

Abelisk.4527:

Smooth Penguin, maybe you are a gold-tier player in terms of overall skill. The real question becomes whether if you’ll be able to hit platinum or not.

If I manage to keep a 60/40 win ratio through another 100 games, I’m sure to hit Plat tier. But that depends on the types of players matchmaking teams me with. People are saying Gold tier is bad like Silver, so I have no hopes of avoiding bad players.

As the season is nearing end I am also starting to think that matches are RNG more than anything else. In my opinion proof for that are total blowouts which happen more and more (and I don’t mean AFKs and DCs). If MMR is working correctly, then matches like 500:100 should never happen (excluding AFKs and DCs) and lately they happen A LOT.

Your teammates and team composition matters A LOT, so all those talks how “if you are good you will carry” are complete BS. That is exactly where RNG thingy shows its face.

MM system uses your rating in order to create matches with players of similar rating, assuming that if it makes teams as close average rating as possible, game is considered to be “fair”. However, team composition and map also matter a lot. Lately more and more I am getting matches with 3 and even 4 of the same class in my team. I see that happening to enemy teams as well. This just shows that all that system does is looking MMR, but by doing so it makes horrible team compositions (for example 3 necros and 2 guardians).
If this happens, then either no one changes class or they go to some other class which they play not so well (or even worse they see this as opportunity to practice their thief they made 2h ago). Also, don’t forget that legendary backpack achievements require you to play several different classes, which means that many of those chasing achievements will play often 3rd or 4th class, just to complete those.

I know this happens because player base is not as large as it should be, but all this contributes to this “RNG” factor.

I’m having the opposite experience. I started the season in mid Silver and loss streaked into bronze in the course of a couple of bad days. Games were awful for a while with score differences of 200+ common.

As the season winds down, I’m finally getting good games that play out to the end.

I suspect that population issues may be part of the problem in higher divisions, the matchmaker reaches further and further to make up a team.

In tier 3 platinum a lose streak not even that big can mean dropping to gold which happened to me. Somehow my skill-level dropped in one day from 1900 to 1650. Since your rating = pure skill ONLY now, (some people see it that way, even anet probably) it probably means that i just started randomly from one day to another play bad. Thats very likely. Yep. The delusional people opened my eyes its all clear now.
When i get first time PvPer in my team with 500AP vs top 10 and lose that game, its because im bad and should be punished for it.

No but seriously now, matchmaking in this game will never ever be good simply because of the lack of players. Ratings difference in matches can go up to 700 rating which is totally absurd. Anet sacrificed the already bad matchmaking to even worse in favour of shorter queues. Because of the same reason class stacking will never be fixed. That means you will be forced to play other professions if u want to have atleast 50% winrate. Me, as a thief main, get to play thief in 1 out of 10 matches if i dont want to end up with 3 thieves in team.

skylink.4972:

it probably means that i just started randomly from one day to another play bad. Thats very likely. Yep. The delusional people opened my eyes its all clear now.
When i get first time PvPer in my team with 500AP vs top 10 and lose that game, its because im bad and should be punished for it.

This was my point exactly. There are too many situations and things that you have no control of, that affect outcome of matches, but still you are being punished because you are not top tier player that can duel 1 v3 or 1 v 4 to overcome this.

And since I am not the only one who is having games in streaks, I agree it is BS that one day I was playing so well to win 10 matches and then suddenly I forgot to play next day and I was complete trash and only because of that I lost 10 matches.

And the biggest issue is that things are getting worse and worse as the season nears end. Just last night I had situation where 1 was AFK for several minutes from my team. Then when we said we will report him he logged out and logged in to fake DC and by the time he started playing it was like 200 point difference and then he spent rest of the match complaining why we reported him. So yeah, it was me that sucked in that match and deserved to lost ranking. I know someone will say “oh, but it’s just 1 match”, but I don’t play 50 matches every day. I have work and other stuff to do, so I don’t have that much chance to recover if I get 1 or 2 bad situations like this one. So does that mean that since I can’t play as much as other people I am not skilled because every match like this one has much bigger impact on my rating than on someone else’s?

skylink.4972:

Me, as a thief main, get to play thief in 1 out of 10 matches if i dont want to end up with 3 thieves in team.

And this is another point that I was making how bad composition for one team completely throws match in favor of another team, simply because they can play their mains and you are forced to play 2nd, 3rd or 4th class (because it depends to what you must switch). Even if we assume that MM is trying to make balanced matches and the most equal teams as possible regarding rating, every little thing can decide match and being forced to play something else is exactly disadvantage that is enough for other team to win.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

StickerHappy.8052:

Well you see “RNG Blessed me” is very misleading. Have you ever though that you might have played better (did the right things, rotated better) on the games you won? (Not discrediting you for having better teammates) Again, without proper documentation through videos, this will be very hard to prove.

I play good in nearly all my matches.

Nope, gonna stop you right there. The moment where you assume you played good in a loss is the moment you won’t improve any longer. Even Helseth on stream will reflect at the end of a game on where he messed up especially during a loss.

Nobody plays perfectly every game, there’s something somewhere that you can improve upon. And when you find the personal issues and fix them, you become a better player, you raise your chances of winning more games, and get into higher and higher ratings.

It’s much easier to improve if you start laying out where you messed up every game. I am willing to bet you’ve made more mistakes than you realize, something as simple as a mistaken rotation you thought was a good idea which seemed like it turned the game around might have been your teammates carrying you instead.

The only way you can carry in this game is to play a fast class like Mesmer or Thief and be of a skill level where you literally never lose a 1v1 or 2v2. Thats like .005% of the population. The vast majority of the people in the top 250 are not that skill level. Helseth proved nothing with his little stunt. Its like Lebron James beating college level players and making a big deal of it. There are like 20 players his skill level i n the world at most and he plays mesmer a class made to thrive in map control in mostly solo queue leagues.

IMO, for solo queuers only, I recommend Mesmer, Warrior and Engineer. I find these professions have a bit more impact and are fairly flexible on any team comp.

If you duo queue, play decent combos which is literally any mix (even Rev) and do your thing.

I have also questioned the rating system.

For a period of time i was in the top 150-250 of the leader board.

I have never dropped below gold 3 but i have had very frustrating moments staying in plat.

Now thats me personally, i do like the friends list rating. Ive seen players i knew who are elite players. Players who ranked in the top 50 who are now both out of the 250. (ill be honest its only 2 players i know)

But all season they were in the top 150 and then boom, in the last week 3-4 losses in a row and they are now out of it. Its a odd thing to comprehend.

This is getting surreal.

In order to prove that MMR is based on randomness, you would need to provide enough information to show that over a long period of time, there was no discernible pattern. You posted just your W/L record.

To suggest that winning and losing is based entirely on one’s teammates borders on the insane. Each person on your team has four teammates, not just you. Every one of you contributes in some way to the final result.

There will be variance between one’s current rating and one’s “true talent.” At any given moment, your exact rating may or may not reflect your exact skill relative to others. It could be the system’s error; it could be a change in you, since “true talent” is just an idea and not a material thing. However, over time, your rating will trend toward alignment with your ability relative to others in the pool. For the majority of participants, once the system can successfully match them with individuals of similar skill, records will trend toward .500.

All this complaint suggests is that the system is working properly. If you are sitting at 1350 with a 60% win rate, we can expect one of two things: Either you’ve streaked above your level and will correct back down, with your record stabilizing toward .500; OR you have yet to ascend to your level and will continue to climb until you reach it, with your record then stabilizing toward .500.

Given sufficient time, most of the population will see this take place. The reason the top players stay well above .500 is because there are not enough players at that level to consistently create balanced matchups, so the system must match them against weaker players in order to fill out games.

The reason a lot of the rest of us stay above .500 is because the season is short enough and participation sporadic enough that the system is not able to perfectly guage all participants, so a person will ride a hot streak above its level and get beaten back down, or ride a cold streak below its level and surge back up. The more games people play, the more accurate ratings will become.

There is a small element of luck and team assignment affecting small samples, but it is by no means the basis of MMR.

kdaddy.5431:

I have also questioned the rating system.

For a period of time i was in the top 150-250 of the leader board.

I have never dropped below gold 3 but i have had very frustrating moments staying in plat.

Now thats me personally, i do like the friends list rating. Ive seen players i knew who are elite players. Players who ranked in the top 50 who are now both out of the 250. (ill be honest its only 2 players i know)

But all season they were in the top 150 and then boom, in the last week 3-4 losses in a row and they are now out of it. Its a odd thing to comprehend.

It’s not that odd. Some people can’t play a lot of games in a day compared to others. That’s all there is to it. If you play a lot of games with a duo that is still very good, you will still keep or move up from your spot.

I for one is on bronze t1 now lol. I haven’t played in a long time.

About your plat moments, you will be frustrated of course because the season has been going on for a while now hence the population on upper tiers will be diluted (both baddies and average players below your skill level)

Best part is that I climbed out of bronze yesterday with my bad account and lost two matches. -11 and -15 (both with over 200 points difference) where I hold far or home vs. two and 3-4 of my team come to help me, because they can’t even win another fight on the map.

I don’t know how this matchmaking works, but it is really kittenty.

lol have Helseth play a non meta overpowered HoT Spec. If anyone has a video of that link it.. id like to see. Good player isn’t someone who is carried by a build. just a fyi fact to add in. I know GW2 has brainwashed most people that it is the case.. but no it isn’t so overrated hearing his name all the time. reason this pvp is in the state it is… terrible balance (matchmaking doesn’t help but balance is the major issue) It is about time the game was reverted to pre Jun 2015 build to fix the mess we got now.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-June-23-2015

^ This update right here destroyed this game and ever since then it just got worse with balance.

kdaddy.5431:

I have also questioned the rating system.

For a period of time i was in the top 150-250 of the leader board.

I have never dropped below gold 3 but i have had very frustrating moments staying in plat.

Now thats me personally, i do like the friends list rating. Ive seen players i knew who are elite players. Players who ranked in the top 50 who are now both out of the 250. (ill be honest its only 2 players i know)

But all season they were in the top 150 and then boom, in the last week 3-4 losses in a row and they are now out of it. Its a odd thing to comprehend.

The rating system would work fine if matchmaking worked properly.

https://puu.sh/twVao/d733a12da5.jpg

That’s just one example of many where the teams are way too far apart in terms of skill which leads to frustrating games and/or 1 sided stomps.

I just solo queued a game tonight and came up vs a duo q streamer, needless to say we lost drastically and I lost 20 for that. I looked afterwards and my entire team was pretty much gold. I was expected to carry that vs 3-4 plat players at least, no way.

Right now if you’re an average PvPer (aka most of us in Plat 1-2), you should just duo q because solo is a totally RNG gamble fiesta where you can fight top level duos and lose a bunch of rating despite being heavily not in your favor.

News flash: If you aren’t good enough to carry anymore, you are where you belong.

The Game Slayer.7632:

News flash: If you aren’t good enough to carry anymore, you are where you belong.

Exactly!

If you can’t carry 80% of the team, you are where you belong.

Or is this not sarcasm? I can’t tell anymore with these comments…

LinhZeri.6412:

lol have Helseth play a non meta overpowered HoT Spec. If anyone has a video of that link it.. id like to see. Good player isn’t someone who is carried by a build. just a fyi fact to add in. I know GW2 has brainwashed most people that it is the case.. but no it isn’t so overrated hearing his name all the time. reason this pvp is in the state it is… terrible balance (matchmaking doesn’t help but balance is the major issue) .

At least someone who understand.