Guild Wars 2

ArrDee.2573:

This change is silly! Unlike other AI builds, turret builds make the user completely worthless! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! So mighty! Plus turret Engineers can’t swap weapons and are absolutely worthless off point! It only makes sense that turrets are beefier and stronger than other forms of AI!

I would’ve thought the obvious change would be to have turrets scale with your stats! An Engineer that values damage while sacrificing defense will in turn provide frail, high-powered turrets and vice versa! That way someone that builds to be a bunker can’t deal much damage and someone that builds to be a damage dealer can’t take many hits! But oh well! That logic is wasted on the cele meta which some classes build to be a bunker AND deal decent damage! #Anet!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

You mean… Turrets aren’t affected by your power/condi damage stat?

(Tests in-game)

Holy… Turret damage isn’t affected by power at all! (though turret-applied conditions still use your Condi damage stat) What the heck?

I’ve been running Soldier’s this whole time when playing as a turret engi when I should have been using Settler’s!?

My whole understanding of my main Profession has been shattered. Shattered!

I don’t understand how this is a flawed change. All it does is allow condition builds to kill turrets. Next you’ll be claiming turrets should be immune to standard damage too.

Sagat.3285:

Alexander.9810:

Lux.7169:

Alexander.9810:

@ Lux

Nobody has been upset because it’s unbeatable except some of the more ignorant players. They’re upset because it is obnoxious to fight against, promotes laziness, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

That’s arbitrary though.

And actually I don’t mind fighting it at all, I actually enjoy fighting it a lot more than d/d ele or cele engie because those fights are boring. There, you’ve been proved wrong since you said no one wants to deal with it anymore. More evidence is the quoted players who, at the time they posted it, did not seem to have any qualms about fighting turret engies.

So based on your logic, if most people detest the cele meta they should just nerf it to the extent that turret engies were nerfed? Great, let’s get rolling with that. That will have a meaningful impact on COMPETITIVE play and would not just be a hot join nerf.

Why should devs waste the few precious updates and balances we get on nerfing things for HOTJOIN when they could make meaningful balance changes for PvP.

Clearly anyone who wasn’t horrible just steam-rolled turret engies, so that’s not the issue. Teams apparently just obliterated them so that’s not the issue. Thus, the issue must be that new players were being discouraged by them in hot joins… Sucks for them, but how about fixing competitive PvP instead?

Okay, maybe I shouldn’t have said nobody. Maybe I walked into that one. You obviously don’t miss details lol. Yes there are people who find Turret Engi an amusing diversion from dueling the same meta builds over and over.

But you do realize that Anet is not making very much money from pro players right? They are making money from said new players that buy the game and gem store purchases. The competitive scene is a way for them to promote the game in a different way, but, like any promotion, costs money.

Balancing for competitive does need to improve, but if you’re allowing builds that newer, less experienced players are angry about continue to anger them that has more tangible consequences than the preferences of a tiny minority of your players.

#Moneyrulestheworld

Kind of this, that’s why active to hardcore players don’t prefer f2p, game might like content and is advertised as a fashion show also why sub games are usually not casual those players are not usually interested in costumes but gameplay. I disagree on 1 thing tough the problem is the casual player focus there is a difference between active,casual and hardcore. The casual doesn’t want to learn,the active is fine with learning if fun,the hardcore wants to claim, GW2 removed learning treadmills and left casual out of control and unsupervised that’s why they call easy content hard,same with classes, it’s related to NPE and GW2 design but slightly off-topic.

They should have casual only as brand new, they should have filtered them into actives while leveling instead of karma train and alike. It’s ironic how they tried to separate modes but each ended affecting others anyway. What do the newer players understand of tournaments,rotations and alike they just throw money at the screen for costumes.

Yeah I play FFXIV for a reason. SE is cranking content out faster than anyone can play it. There’s literally too much to do in that game lol. Raiding, crafting, playing the market, the ability to max all classes on one toon… it’s crazy.

That kind of thing doesn’t seem to be happening in any of the B2P, F2P games though. There’s a dependency on new players that is not as present as in WoW and FFXIV, which I think explains why there appear to be so many logistical problems with GW2 that simply don’t exist in FFXIV.

I mean there’s a threat with players who can make themselves permanently invisible. FFXIV fixed the balance issues almost immediately when their PvP’s most popular mode came out. Healers were OP b/c they had damage output that matched DPS b/c of a move that is important for PvE, but ridiculous in PvP. They changed it. They changed a lot of skills for PvP and kept them the same for PvE.

I don’t know why Arenanet doesn’t copy the fastest growing and most universally acclaimed MMO more lol.

@OP:

I’ve been saying for a long time that the issue across all engis is sustain. Of all your ideas, this one should have implemented:

Increase Healing Turret cooldown.

I’d also like to see a 5 second cooldown before the healing turret can be destroyed.

So wait…. Let me get this straight.

This isn’t just choosing between one or the other. It’s BOTH.
Your comparison was other classes AI, and yet, you are only giving them the downsides and not the upsides that come with such?

I’m not a fan of Turret Engies in PvP but honestly this is ridiculous.
The condition apply aspect alone is a HUGE nerf to Turret Engies alone and you want to add crits into the mix?

Other AI get boons, the ability to crit, hell of alot shorter cooldowns and also aren’t completely worthless without investing heavily into them solely just to make them USABLE, not to mention they are also mobile.

Unless the health of the turrets is significantly increased, this is a joke of a nerf in my opinion. Especially if it encompasses WvW and PvE where Turrets are already in a bad place.

Should there be counterplay to Turret Engies? Of course. But should be rewarded for skillful play.
If anything, select conditions should only apply to Turrets.
-Blind
-Chill
-Burning
-Slow (When implemented)

Blinding a turret, especially in some of its key moments of using attacks rewards skillful play. Especially having to decide between using such on the engie versus his turret. Few classes have access to such, especially in droves, but usually it makes a difference.

Chill on slowing down cooldowns should come into this case, especially since Chill is something with fairly low duration and few application.

Burning is one of the few damaging conditions I would accept. For a few reasons (besides making the most sense); much like chill, it has only a few applications and does moderate damage especially for those investing in it. Also much like chill, it tends to be fairly short.

Any other conditions added into such I feel are just way to over the top in completely shutting down any usefulness turrets have in a group or even for self defense as an Engie. Especially since the Engineer practically has absolutely no way to even cleanse his own turrets. Making it a complete reversal of a balance issue. The counterplay no longer has counterplay.

The above conditions I feel are the only additions that need to be made. They don’t need to be critically hit, nor do they need Torment/Bleed/Poison/Fear/Cripple/Immobilize added into the mix, just because they can.

Those are conditions a person should be applying to the Engineer anyways.
If one is going to go full boar on the condition and crit side as well, the boon and able to crit should be give as well. Fair is fair.

My only concern is for supply crate, i hope it doesn’t stay only for few seconds after an engi uses it, for a non turret builds.

It’s always an elite with 180cd and the alternatives are pretty bad.

FINALLY. Things are actually happening.

If possible could these changes be kept a spvp thing only? Or could turret health be significantly increased in wvw and pve.

Talonblaze.3175:

Chill on slowing down cooldowns should come into this case, especially since Chill is something with fairly low duration and few application.

If the turret actually had a skill of it’s own beyond it auto attack that might work, but as it currently (as far as I know) the additional skill is the use activated skill on the engineer itself which you could already chill. Seems a bit odd to picture that working as you seem to think it does.

Bran.7425:

Talonblaze.3175:

Chill on slowing down cooldowns should come into this case, especially since Chill is something with fairly low duration and few application.

If the turret actually had a skill of it’s own beyond it auto attack that might work, but as it currently (as far as I know) the additional skill is the use activated skill on the engineer itself which you could already chill. Seems a bit odd to picture that working as you seem to think it does.

Don’t see why it couldn’t be changed to work on the Turret utility skill. Not sure if Ranger pets have the same/similar issue on the F2 but if they are reworking them to take conditions, don’t see why that can’t be the case.

These changes are interesting. I rarely use turrets, but it’ll be interesting to see how this shifts on the supply crate alone.

I’m not sure if I saw this in the comments yet, but will this effect the Mortar Elite? I wasn’t exactly sure if it would be effected or not (I assume not)… It technically isn’t a turret, but has a lot of turret like qualities (Doesn’t crit, currently isn’t effected by condi damage , currently isn’t effected by crit damage, stationary, etc.). I know that the Mortar_ doesn’t have access to the turret specific traits. I personally rarely if ever use the Mortar( and pretty much every engi I know/ seen doesn’t use it) in the first place due to a whole list of reasons, but if these changes effect the Mortar, that thing is going to be a lot more fragile than it already is and more so not a bother to run with.

Will mob turrets bleed as well? Eg. CM’s army of net turrets

inb4 all the engis realize their supply drop is nerfed haha.

Well at first I was into it and now I’m not as much.

1. I too misread as turrets being able to crit. While this would be really dangerous for PvP, the effects on PvE could be quite positive.

If turrets could crit, not only would there be a viable non-hobosack build, but the game will have FINALLY received a potentially viable a gun class. (Pistol thieves and rifle warriors are often frowned upon, mesmer and engi hardly use their guns compared to their other functions.)

2. Making the turrets take condi damage in PvP, sure. I like this one. I couldn’t touch them with my necro. Making them take condi damage in PvE might be another nail in their coffin.

3. I’m on the fence about them receiving crit damage. I don’t have a hard time blowing them up on staff ele or zerker ranger. They are just going to get easier. Another potential nail in the coffin for PvE.

That’s my prediction/input.

I’m super happy, devs, that you came to us first about this though. Maybe we can get something worked out.

I’m not a fan of turrets but this is a really lazy solution.

You could make turrets stats scale with the engi’s amulet.
You could make it so that every turret can be present in a map (or within a certain radius) only once so that the 2nd rocket turret would destroy the first one (to prevent turret engis from stacking).
You could prevent the turrets from spawning on top of lampposts, on walls, in the air, etc….

Epi necro return confirmed boys! Just stack condis on turrets!

Please disable the ability to deploy turrets while in mid-air, as players abuse this bug to have floating turrets that cannot be cleaved on the ground.

Thejewishpeople.1367:

Epi necro return confirmed boys! Just stack condis on turrets!

To be fair, the obvious counter is to just not run a turret engi which is fine by me

As someone that really hates turrets engies I have to say that I think that this nerf seems really excessive. We didn’t want the turret build to be completely destroyed, we wanted it to be balanced.

Increasing the turrets cooldowns by 20%, decreasing their health slightly by 20% would have suffice. But making them take crit damage and condition damage is a 50%+ nerf. Most people crit for around 200% their normal damage, in most cases they will get destroyed instantly.

Even when it’s a balance change we’ve been asking for it doesn’t mean we want the build nerfed to the ground. You guys at Anet realize that you’ve just killed an entire build? Nobody will run turrets in a few weeks when people realize they are now useless.

Now what about the ranger 10k rapidfire from 1500 range? are you going to nerf that one day?

Making them take 200% the damage (or more with condis) they used to take isn’t something you can call balance, they just took the build out of the game. It’s sad, because Anet seems to carelessly be destroying build diversity.

It was past time to do something about turrets, but this ?! Sure gonna keep using my sigil of intelligence.

Some question:
-Are we going to apply buff on turret? that make sense they can take condition
-Make steel bleed Really Anet ?
-And what about condition duration? I’m playing the melandru rune, will it affect my turret condition duration?
-Honestly, if you want turret to be part of the game, make us able to heal/remove condition (or just remove condition ), every other pet in this game can, why not engies turret? They take 60s to be used again, that’s a lot.
-If i want to apply stability to my turret to avoid the fear on, can i ?
-Moving turrets? (this one was a joke)

I hope an answer, dont forget we asked for a nerf, not dealating gameplay.

-And What about Necros damages when they a downed?
-Mesmer ****** Moa ? Its Pvp no? not PvMoa

I BLOW HARD BETTER CRA-oh wait what

These turret changes sound fair, let’s see how it plays out.

Great news. Now I want to know when this will happen. Please don’t tell me “soon”, give me a date.

I don’t think the changes in the OP are good. Yes, it will hurt turret engi, but it doesn’t really address the other problems of turret engi:

• Turrets in places you can’t reach, especially from melee.
• Heavy CC from turrets dying. A nightmare for melee to fight.
  In addition, making baseline turrets easier to kill will make it pointless for any engineer to use them unless they’re a full turret spec’ed engi.

I would instead recommend any or all of the following:

• Reduce the reduction on Metal Plating. 30% reduction is the same as giving turrets over 40% additional HP. Altering this trait weakens turret engi without hampering un-traited turrets.
• Revert velocity increase to Rocket Turret. It’s near impossible to avoid the basic rocket fire, which hits pretty hard. Staying alert allows you to avoid some damage.
• Move Accelerant-Packed Turrets back to a master trait. This causes turret engineers to choose two of: CC and damage on turret death, increased turret damage and range, boons on turrets. Without the extra CC or damage, turret engis won’t be able to force players off points as easily.
• Fix turrets being deployed in mid-air.

Well since turrets can now be crit and hit with condis seems fair will you allow them to move around with us like all the other minions? you know only seems fair since they will die easier now I mean wheels have been invented in the game right? I would also suggest if this change is going to go through you guys should prob take a look at the traits for them survival wise and bring it up to par with other classes atm they are pretty lackluster

The proposed changes effectively make turrets die faster and conditionally deal less damage.

I’m going to operate under the assumption that there’s some semblance of wanting to turret build to still be usable.

There’s various crit procs that will probably make turrets die faster than the nerf intends. Due to this I’d also experiment with simply reducing turret health by 1/3 while maintaining crit immunity.

I’d also experiment internally with limiting what conditions can be applied to turrets. Perhaps just Burning, Blind, Weakness, Terror and chill.

Also please fix the floating turrets bug.

Proposed changes would kill off turret engi. Basically any meta build would now be able to deal with them. Those who are saying its not going far enough really haven’t grasped how much of a difference being able to crit, burn, bleed and blind turrets, it is going to make taking them out so easy. I dont have a problem with turret build becoming useless coz lets be honest they aren’t really healthy for the game.

My main issues are this change might be killing off any potential new engi meta builds for wvw and pve. As few have stated the turret reflect trait can be so helpful in wvw esp with the current range meta and turrets are already dying fast enough as it is there.

Also would this change effect engi supply crate? if so then its a nerf to basically all engi builds.

As an engi I am incredibly happy to see this change and imo it is not too hard of a nerf. I would propose looking at other engi elites as well as part of this patch, so we actually get more incentive to choose something else than supply crate.
And please, look @ mid air turrets. That is as annoying as the turrets themselves.

Xillllix.3485:

Making them take 200% the damage (or more with condis) they used to take isn’t something you can call balance, they just took the build out of the game. It’s sad, because Anet seems to carelessly be destroying build diversity.

Build diversity? It isn’t very diverse when 40% of the leaderboards is full of people playing easy mode Turret Engi to climb the ranks.

I don’t see anything bad in removing the practice of “run on point and spamm all turrets = profit”, maybe just maybe now players will think twice before spamming all turrets on a point, rushing in with that feeling of invincibility.

Play smart and you won’t get demolished that fast

Xillllix.3485:

Making them take 200% the damage (or more with condis) they used to take isn’t something you can call balance, they just took the build out of the game. It’s sad, because Anet seems to carelessly be destroying build diversity.

It was past time to do something about turrets, but this ?! Sure gonna keep using my sigil of intelligence.

Forcing you to take smart decisions is not really a way to destroy build diversity, up to now, a turret engi was able to run on a point and spamm all turrets with little worries , easy win against pugs…but now you simply can’t do that anymore and must actually think what you’re doing, which turrets to deploy first..and how

style.6173:

@OP:

I’ve been saying for a long time that the issue across all engis is sustain. Of all your ideas, this one should have implemented:

Increase Healing Turret cooldown.

I’d also like to see a 5 second cooldown before the healing turret can be destroyed.

Why current engi meta builds have very limited condition removal and lack of stab they are more susceptible to condi and cc when compared to other classes. Also if you do some math and compare engi healing to Cele ele staff or dd, shout/bow wars, Guardians, and Condi/regen ranger you with find they don’t really have to much sustain at all.

1. This does not fix the root issue.

2. This will MAYBE cause people to play this build less, even though it honestly isn’t any different thanks to the root issue still being a problem.

3. Turrets need a REWORK.

4. So its now encouraged to attack the turrets?

5. See attached :

vincecontix.1264:

style.6173:

@OP:

I’ve been saying for a long time that the issue across all engis is sustain. Of all your ideas, this one should have implemented:

Increase Healing Turret cooldown.

I’d also like to see a 5 second cooldown before the healing turret can be destroyed.

Why current engi meta builds have very limited condition removal and lack of stab they are more susceptible to condi and cc when compared to other classes. Also if you do some math and compare engi healing to Cele ele staff or dd, shout/bow wars, Guardians, and Condi/regen ranger you with find they don’t really have to much sustain at all.

And those builds invest heavily in healing respect to engi..what do you expect?
I run all the builds you mention and yes, they all takes traits and utilities to heal and remove conditions, why don’t you engies do the same?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Automated_Response

vincecontix.1264:

Why current engi meta builds have very limited condition removal and lack of stab they are more susceptible to condi and cc when compared to other classes. Also if you do some math and compare engi healing to Cele ele staff or dd, shout/bow wars, Guardians, and Condi/regen ranger you with find they don’t really have to much sustain at all.

Mesmers say hello. Their heals do not have built-in condition removal until traited. Engi’s healing turret removes 2 conditions and provides a water blast field.

2 changes I would propose is make turrets despawn after the engi leaves to a certain long range and make the trait Deployable Turrets use the same target limititations as shadowstepping and teleports have now.

Is Anet going to consider making wider changes to how various effects (such as critical hits, conditions and marks) affect non-creature enemies in general (such as turrets, walls and so on) or is this purely aimed at fixing turrets? I hope the former but I fear the latter.

GrandHaven.1052:

1. This does not fix the root issue.

2. This will MAYBE cause people to play this build less, even though it honestly isn’t any different thanks to the root issue still being a problem.

3. Turrets needs a REWORK.

4. So its now encouraged to attack the turrets?

5. See attached :

I saw your attachment…do you remember Warriors still exist?

Zietlogik.6208:

I saw your attachment…do you remember Warriors still exist?

My point exactly.
Adrenaline is not even a managed resource anymore, you use it or lose it.

Supreme.3164:

vincecontix.1264:

style.6173:

@OP:

I’ve been saying for a long time that the issue across all engis is sustain. Of all your ideas, this one should have implemented:

Increase Healing Turret cooldown.

I’d also like to see a 5 second cooldown before the healing turret can be destroyed.

Why current engi meta builds have very limited condition removal and lack of stab they are more susceptible to condi and cc when compared to other classes. Also if you do some math and compare engi healing to Cele ele staff or dd, shout/bow wars, Guardians, and Condi/regen ranger you with find they don’t really have to much sustain at all.

And those builds invest heavily in healing respect to engi..what do you expect?
I run all the builds you mention and yes, they all takes traits and utilities to heal and remove conditions, why don’t you engies do the same?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Automated_Response

Fair point though as it still stands engi current meta builds are still weaker to condis then other builds. Engi could bring more condition removal but than they wouldn’t be as good offensively just like other classes they would have to make a trade off between more offence or more survivability.

Also you could just bring a Necro to hard counter the engi. I would even say a condition ranger is a soft counter against current meta engi builds. Then you have dd, staff ele and shoutbow wars that can easily face off against an engi.

Supreme.3164:

I don’t see anything bad in removing the practice of “run on point and spamm all turrets = profit”, maybe just maybe now players will think twice before spamming all turrets on a point, rushing in with that feeling of invincibility.

Play smart and you won’t get demolished that fast

Give engineers the resources to do that and then we can talk about it. Engineer have a single main weapon, so they have to focus on utilities, whatever they are. If turrets get demolished that fast, people just won’t use turrets, that’s all this change will “fix”.

All i see in this section is a constant whining about any supposed advantage the engineer gets. But no one ever addresses that the engineer has a disadvantage from the get go. People just think nothing should make up for it. We have a toolbelt? Oh, sure. And what about it? Any class gets his mechanic, but they usually don’t pay anything for it. Only the engineer and elementalists do, and the latter get 3 weapon sets in return, as a default.
And then i come here and have to read about devs talking to make engineer utilities inline with others? Oh, please. Engineers aren’t inline with other professions to start with.

Engi is my main, but i never player full turret bunker(lie – i tried few times to see how OP is it, and i played it frequently in hotjoin 2 years ago, while been learning the class).

I would suggest a huge YES for condition beeing aplied to turrets, it’s an awesome idea and it will make it countarable.
On another point if u will apply both suggested changes you should think then of buffing healing skills (except healing turret ofc) and elite skills, because currently there are very very few builds outside of supply crate+healing turret.

Thanks alot for this thread though, as i become more frequently playing pvp, the turret engi seems too strong for amount of effort that putted in to play it.

FloStyle.8062:

-Make steel bleed Really Anet ?

For those worried about realism, machines can in-fact bleed…oil. Just like the metal can rust/corrode or soften due to heat (vulnerability). Machines can certainly bleed. Maybe you can be a little creative with others (although teaching a machine to fear…that is a tough one. We all know machines have no gods).

Hvaran.6327:

Currently there are very very few builds outside of supply crate+healing turret.

This is more because healing turret is the best heal in the game BY FAR. Nearly uninterruptible, water field, blast, highest hp/s of any heal, and a burst heal (so its strong against both incoming burst and sustained pressure). The other heals aren’t really bad (esp. Med Kit is pretty decent), but healing turret is so OP you can never justify taking anything else. Crate is on of the best elites in the game, possibly the strongest (although quite a few have been buffed recently so its not so obviously #1 anymore).

Josh Davis.6015:

DeWolfe.2174:

btw, who uses Turrets in WvW?

Static discharge builds.

To be fair, these proposed changes do very little to effect other builds that could have been ruined by some suggestions.

As a SD main build engi, I welcome the changes. My turrets themselves are only used as CC/healing burst.

I’d still like to see them auto destruct if the engi leaves them by a specified distance, like 1000-1500 or something

dis gon b gud.

Now forgive me if this has been suggested before (not going to read 5 pages). Make engis stationary when casting turrets to prevent mid-air turrets. Or have them self-destruct after 1500 range.

serenke.4806:

I’m not a fan of turrets but this is a really lazy solution.

You could make turrets stats scale with the engi’s amulet.
You could make it so that every turret can be present in a map (or within a certain radius) only once so that the 2nd rocket turret would destroy the first one (to prevent turret engis from stacking).
You could prevent the turrets from spawning on top of lampposts, on walls, in the air, etc….

I feel the changes are both reasonable as well as specifically ones requested in a great many post. I am unclear how giving a vast amount of posters, the solution they requested, is “lazy”.

In my opinion, conditions need to effect all objects with their damage, otherwise investment in the trait lines and the stays of condition damage itself are punished unfairly.

I also think that this change will be helpful in making solo queue more fun again. Mid air turrets should be fixed, though, too, as it is being exploited broadly. We’ve seen them even in ESL games…

Josh Davis.6015:

We’d love to hear your feedback on these changes. Feel free to respond below with your comments.

-Grouch

Dissapointed.

(And dont copy and paste the “u just ba turrrrent enji no ju have to git gud laike me” response until you have read my entire post.)

Because as others have already said, this would be fine as a monday morning hotfix after hearing about the first engineer running turrets after the hitbox patch. But after all this time? Everyone knows this is the smiters boon again, removing from play because its troublesome to fix. And yeah it is that big of a change. The thing about smiters boon is that despite being a quick “hotnerf” its still there, and this was considered bad manner in a game with 1000’s of skills to choose from, although at first im sure people where relieved that they didn’t have to run into this anymore and even cheered for the nerfbat. Hell, we even got a commemorative skill and a weapon.

Having the turrets destroyed within seconds even when not focused leaves them a empty slot on the skill bar. And utility slots are what evades, blind and stealth are to a thief for a engi. An engineer filling his bar with turrets is like a thief focusing on venoms, trait heavy, cumbersome and very, very niche, but of course it will have its peak performance somewhere. The single game mode we have is that place for peak performance for turrets, defending a point. If they can’t be implemented here, they might as well be gone. And here everyone goes “Horray thats exactly what we want!”. Yep, probably you do, as a knee jerk reaction to every engineer daily but please remember:

We where told the game would have fever slotable skills, but “all” of them would be useful because its easier to balance a handful per class than hundreds. So does that mean that they have been more active and creative with their balance? Now i will only speak from the engineers perspective because that is the class im most familiar with but this probably goes for all classes, the engineer though have been quite the gimmick, be it weapon swapping for might or being immune to condis while under 25% health or dedicating your build to Punting People off Point. The criteria to a good “nerf” or better, rework for me is that the nerftarget is still viable and can still be used seriously afterwards. For example:

Good nerf:
Reducing the range of the A.P.T. trait meant that it still worked as a defensive/offensive interruption at the cost of destroying a turret without making the process of decapping trivial with it. Same goes for the airblast nerf, just enough of a tell for fast players to react, but its still reliable.

Bad nerf:
This for example, or smiters boon. Or Automated response. Troublesome mechanics which where not reworked as they probably should have but simply tuned down from 11 to 0. This works as a temporary fix, but it needs to be followed up with a rework. Take automated response for example, what if it did something entirely different like: " When under the effect of X or more conditions you create a sphere at your position which will discharge after Y seconds, transfering conditions to enemies". It could be anything, but its easier to remove than redesign.

Bad rework:
Kit refinment, everyone was running this until suddenly noone did. It mainly got reworked due to grenade barrage, but when it finally was it had already been hit by long global icd, meaning the interesting new mechanics that came with it couldn’t work with the nature of switching between kits. E for effort though.

Good rework:
Well im unsure about this, nothing really springs to mind. Im not talking about pure buffs here but troublesome skills being reworked to bring something new, while still being reasonable.

The thing is that everyone is cheering and waving flags for a sinking ship, we have had so little tools to play with these years that simply removing a large percentage of them is tragic and should not be cheered for. If anything it should be mourned, not for the sake of turrets as they where but for turrets as they could have been.

And if anyone has read this far i do not play the rocket turret, rifle turret etc engi.

I got one build that uses thumper and flame turret for blasts, stealth, utility and versatility together with toolkit. Only turret traits i got is that of the reflecting shields and boon share (for the few moments i leave my thumper out to give partymembers protection).

the thing is that this is one build not THE build, i also play zerk when i feel like it and condi when i feel like it and i would hope that this remains the case, that balance is not considered okay because everyone got exactly one build, leaving us a MOBA with 8 (soon to be 9) heroes.

I will now post my earlier suggestion, or atleast effort: