Guild Wars 2

TURRETS ,TELL ME DO YOU BLEED ? YOU WILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Laraley.7695:

Manuhell.2759:

Laraley.7695:

I don’t really care, if turret engi is not viable anymore, then it’s good for the game. It should NOT be viable even.

That was what i was saying above, you know. You don’t even want them redesigned, just made useless, and just because you hate “turrets”. Even going as far as saying that’s good for the game. Hah.

No, I said I don’t care and I really don’t. Yes, it is good for the game if there are not builds like turret engi viable. You know why? Because as a player I appreciate good gameplay and fighting people who are skilled. Turret engis promote bad play, it takes literally no skill to play one, therefore creating an enviroment when being good at the game means nothing. Since this is pvp and ANet wants to go esports, builds like this should never exist. In ranked, unranked, tournament, anywhere.

naphack.9346:

If you hate diversity, how about: Remove all classes from the game, remove all traits from the game, remove all amulets from the game.
Have everyone play as a d/d ele with celestial and 0/2/0/6/6 build and cantrips. Then everyone will be happy, right?

Reducing build diversity is never healthy to a game and it’s never a “good” thing. Reducing tactical depth and the requirement to think, before you act, is even worse for a game. By systematically removing everything which strays from the “norm”, whatever this “norm” may actually be, is what kills games.

It’s not diversity, every engi plays turrets because it’s that much effective. Why should we remove all classes and amulets? Just removing turret engi is enough. The game needs diversity, yes but not in AI builds.

By playing turret engi you reduce tactical depth and the requirement to think.

You are already speaking hyperbole, yet still mix in factually false statements.
1) People don’t play turret engi, because they want to play engineer. People play turret engi, because they want to bunker and turrets are the most effective way of BUNKERING right now. People still play celestial rifle, condi, … Yesterday, I even encountered a decap engi.
2) Turret engi adds a lot of tactical decisions and depth to the game. It increases the significance of good rotations, because it punishes bad rotations. It also increases the significance of good defensive rotations, because the build is easily overwhelmed by the right composition in a 2v1.
3) Yes. The game needs more diversity. This would actually solve the turret engi problem by itself. Turret engi is only so effective right now, because half the field is shoutbows, celestial eles and meditation guards, which all have one thing in common: They are useless against turret engis and all 3 of those classes in theory have builds, which are more efficient at either bursting down turret engis or pressuring them on point for a dps to nail them. For the ele, just bringing a frost bow is enough to nail the turret engi in a 2v1 situation.
4) About the skill: Yes and no. If 2 guys, who just started playing, had a fight and one of them rolled a celestial ele, with the other rolling turret engi, he’d certainly win. Now, if they met again with more experience, it’d be a long, drawn out fight, only to be broken up by other player’s rotations. With both of them being very good players, the turret engi would always lose after a drawn out skirmish(because again cele isn’t good against turret engi).

Laraley.7695:

I do. Do you understand what ‘’I don’t care because I don’t think AI builds should be viable at all.’’means?

So basically you just want for an entire category to be useless just because it may involve some AI in some form, independently from anything else.
Can’t say i agree, unfortunately.
I would rather see them usable, as long as most of the importance is given to active play, or either replaced by something that is usable, instead of just having less choices.

they will become unsusefull in every game mode. I don’t play them but with a such change turrets will become unsuefull in pvp. they are just unusefull in wvw and in pve. Is not better to delete them and to give something else ? At least they should reduce turrets cd . I usually play condi engi so i should be happy of this but i find sad to have all those utilities and traits that will be unusefull … a waste of space …

Turrets are already useless in PvE, that’s why the proposed changes can not affect PvE. Any boss will one shot any type of minion.

The proposed changes only allows thieves to reign over turreters since they can now one shot turrets. This opens the turreteer for about a minute of “Look at me look at me! All my skills are on cd nad my rifle is all left!”.

Mesmers can burst the hell outta the engineer.
Guardians gotta be
guardians.
Rangers reach farther than the turrets.
The warrior’s bow burst skill fills the whole capture point and deals enough damage to screw the rurrets.
Powermancers just lich. One autoattack, second autoattack, third- oh wait the turreteer is already dead!
Elementalists ready their whips.
Triple Kit Meta engineer, just as Ranger, reaches farther than the turrets.

Turrets have higher than average CD when destroyed (salve healing turret that itself could use a nerf), and count as destroyed upon death. So you’re about a full minute useless after respawning.

Everyone can run from a turret engineer (turreteer from here on), given they arent blindly staring at the rocket turret, but the turreteer can not escape from any fight(unless other team members are involved and the turreteer is not focused). This is my gripe with the proposed changes. Easier to destroy destroy turrets in order to being as vulnerable or more since turret uptime is the only thing that keeps the turreteer alive.

So, some people argue that the turreteer doesnt require many key presses, but I disgress. Turrets are only effective the time they’re overcharged. The rest of the time they’re just there. Its the massive ammount of CC that allows the turreteer to outstand fights. So pretty much anybody with stability can counter the problem, specially if it is a certain magical Juggernaut warrior. Positioning of the turrets are the only real problem that could be conisdered as unfair when considering confrontations, but these unfair spots should be reduced to none without the corresponding tele-placing trait.

Now, back on the keypress topic, supercharge on turrets only lasts a few seconds, so turrets on top of having Cd, are not effectively active their full lifetime, so they are doing less than “other minions”. In both, destruction Cd and supercharge CD, teh turreteer only has access to 5 skills – the ones from whatever weapon it chose to use, pistol/shield. rifle, or pistol/pistol. The build effectively has less skills to choose from for a total less than the average perfomance. On the opposite, we have guardians using 3 skills and effectively downing everything in their path – while still having access to a variety of survival skills.

So, about engineer being too “OverPowered” in 1v1, I must disgress. Following the statement that thieves are the only ones actually un disadvantage, the turreteer cannot outlast unlimited combat time. Unlike guardians. Unlike mesmers which can escape at any time. This joins paths with the “anybody can run from a turreteer, but the turreteer cant run from anybody”.

Bunker builds slow down gamne progress. this means that matches become longer and slower, instead of a speedfestbasedonhowquickyoupresskeyswhichallowsyourteamtocampthe entirefieldbecausemesmerscanputthatportalwhileeveryonegetsfreeswiftness
andofcourseeveyroneismaxdamagesotheopposingteamchoosesbetweenlosetime
andwaitforeveryonetorespawnorslowlydieonebyoneat5v5matches.

Slowing the game’s pace does good to the game. Too chaotic to allow it to be too fast.

So how does a character that can not so easily be 1v1’d slow the pace of a game? Two members of an opposing team need to leave mid or far in order to terminate the bunker in close, forcing their other 3 teammates to “play smart” so the least advantage possible is lost, since sheer damage will not win a 3v4.

Everyone here crying about why this isn’t fair are just sad that their crutches are going down the toilet and that their w/l is going to go down the toilet until they learn to actually play a class that takes effort.

Although, I can respect the idea of having the turrets scale off of the engineers stats. I don’t want a soldier/sentinel amulet engine being able to line up a 5k burst in a single second while knocking me to hell and back and tanking almost as hard a shoutbow.

Watch this & laugh…. pvpers & get explained why engies… already 9k views.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk3gcbL6fW0

13k views in 16 hours :P

Dont dare any1 say that balance is not a crucial part in a PvP game … i will bite his ear in the x-pack …..
regadles of whom he is ….

(Well exept master Helseth :P)

How could tactical depth and requirement think possibly be reduced by even deleting Turret builds off the face of the earth?

There has never been a build that requires less tactical depth and thinking than Turret Engineer does. Any player that abandons it for a more complex strategy will increase the average tactical thought that goes on in an average conquest match.

You know it needs to be gutted in teamfights when you can sit 2 Turret Engineers in a teamfight and overcome near any team in that endeavour.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/647594592

Watch the last NA monthly, start at 18:20. Turret Engies literally faceroll around the point in teamfights, with dodge rolling and occasionally auto-attacking. Do you know how freaking close a vastly superior team came to getting 2-0’d by a clown car full of turrets?

Don’t forget under what circumstancess a straight up NERF is warranted.

The combat effectiveness of this starter build in question will fortunately be brought back in line with the user’s ability to apply mechanical skill & game knowledge.

I think that in a 1v1, Turret Engineers (even whose Turrets can be much more easily killed) it will be extremely potent.

Everyone’s under the assumption that Turret Engineer will completely disappear from PvP. The thing is, Turret Engineer will still be a formidable 1v1 build, way stronger than the mechanical input of the owner should deserve.

If a player has mastered the use of keybinds instead of clicking, and generally has mastered conquest rotations, a starter A.I. build such as this should not be optimal! The build isn’t for those players. It’s for new players who need an alternative to getting their faces wrecked. Post-patch, the Turret build will still completely devastate low MMR brackets, I have no doubt. It will still dominate the uninitiated, have better than average 1v1 matchups, but fall off much quicker in teamfights.

Just like Spirit Weapons users, and Minionmancers.

It’s perfect!

PS. I would be in favor of a solution with more effort being expended (allowing Turrets to scale instead of doing arbitrarily high damage.) However, ArenaNet has the technical limitation of ‘gadgets’, to deal with, and this change was stated by them to be impossible. Turrets cannot be made to scale.

rotten.9753:

I’m not a fan of turrets but if you want to rationalise those changes why won’t you make turrets affected by boons? Most minions are.

Well for starters, most minions can’t passively spam every boon with 30%-50% uptime in a 600 radius. Now if they were to make it so turrets themselves weren’t affected by their own boons from Experimental Turrets, then by all means I have no problem with it.

You’re basically saying it will work only versus people that have no idea of what they’re doing, independently of how good the user may be.
Guess we’ve different ideas of what “perfect” means.
Imho, a redesign would be perfect, and this change is just terrible and lazy.

Manuhell.2759:

You’re basically saying it will work only versus people that have no idea of what they’re doing, independently of how good the user may be.

No. You won’t find thief that can dispatch a Turret Engi in a 1v1 with moderate effort/time spent, even after this patch hits. No matter the gap between the players, Turrets will definitely do extremely well against players much better than you.

And anything is better than working versus anybody, independently of how good the user may be.

Heart of Thorns is coming. Turrets are completely cancerous NOW, and I think anyone that PvPs should seriously appreciate ArenaNet acting on the statistics of how Turret Engineers are vastly over-performing. I am grateful.

Aktium.9506:

Well for starters, most minions can’t passively spam every boon with 30%-50% uptime in a 600 radius. Now if they were to make it so turrets themselves weren’t affected by their own boons from Experimental Turrets, then by all means I have no problem with it.

For starters, most minions don’t come with all the disadvantages turrets have to start with, if we have to compare. And their user isn’t forced to use a single main weapon, and their mechanic isn’t sort-of locked when using their minions.
And of course, they may not have such a grandmaster trait.
But what you’re basically saying is “they’re free to receive boons, as long as in actual use, they won’t receive any”. Cause a turret engineer has no other practical means to apply boons, apart from regeneration from the healing turret.

Moot comparisons, as usual. Engineers have to get inline only when disadvantages are involved, but six gods forbid them from being inline on the advantages as well.

Now inside turrets there are mini asuras, so they can be take conditions, boons and receive critical damage and no longer are considered structures

Chaith.8256:

No. You won’t find thief that can dispatch a Turret Engi in a 1v1 with moderate effort/time spent, even after this patch hits. No matter the gap between the players, Turrets will definitely do extremely well against players much better than you.

Guess you don’t realize how glassy they will actually be once crits and conditions will be involved. You’ll see, assuming that someone will still use them. Not that you’ll even care, anyway.

Chaith.8256:

Heart of Thorns is coming. Turrets are completely cancerous NOW, and I think anyone that PvPs should seriously appreciate ArenaNet acting on the statistics of how Turret Engineers are vastly over-performing. I am grateful.

I’m not grateful, instead.
Cause i don’t think they’ll ever redesign them – not now, it seems, and neither after HoT. And neither i think that they actually care about doing that. Especially seeing how turrets spent the first year having any genre of bugs (something like 25 or 30 bugs at least, we even had a dedicated thread in the engineer section). They’ll never be changed from this state, and just end up unused.

Manuhell.2759:

stuff

Turrets are disadvantaged? Turrets are better than Ranger Spirits, Guardian Spirit Weapons and Necro Minions combined. Turrets being immobile is a good thing. It means they don’t end up admiring walls while doing nothing when you’re getting mauled horribly in a fight due to broken pathing.

I played Turret Engi all the way to Champ Genius. I know fully well how much better it is than other AI specs. And I never want to see the day when turrets are affected by their own Fury/Prot/Retal. And don’t act like Engineers are some kind of underdog class. Aside from WvW they’re at the top of viability in PvP and PvE.

NameChange.7892:

TURRETS ,TELL ME DO YOU BLEED ? YOU WILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

OT: The movie will still suck and be polarizing.

How about Turret’s on Dodge trait since they are going to be completely disposable now.

DeWolfe.2174:

NameChange.7892:

TURRETS ,TELL ME DO YOU BLEED ? YOU WILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

OT: The movie will still suck and be polarizing.

How about Turret’s on Dodge trait since they are going to be completely disposable now.

Your not gonna be completly disposable.. You still gonna dish out the same amount of OP damage from turrets.. Nothing changed on that.

But you gonna have to work harder to survive like the rest of US..

This class is R……e………tardo

The change to conditions and the crit make sense. The ideas on the turret stop working if engi is not in range, not so much. That’s the point of a stationary device is that they can’t move. If you do this then you would need to change all marks, traps and anything else that can be left behind. Besides if you change too much at one time then you don’t know the true effect of the change. I think the bigger issue is the turrets that are suspended in mid air. Turrets should not be so nerfed into the ground that they go back to be being not viable as a build.

Duka.5864:

How this change will effect Supply Crate,are you going to reduce cd to 90 or even 45 sec because it will not be elite as it is now!? I mean did you thought on engineers who dont play kittening turret kitten!!!

A reduced cooldown might make sense, but lets see how the change plays out a little.

i like these changes

It seems strange to compare turrets to other minions. All other minions in the game are mobile. Ranger pets, ranger spirits, necro minions, as well as all racial skills that summon minions. By making turrets immobile, AND susceptible to the same crit and condi damage puts them at a huge disadvantage. Will there be any added buff to help engis like reducing the cooldown on their recharge?

Just to add, conditions on turrets make absolutely no sense because they are inanimate objects. How does a turret bleed or get poisoned?

Aktium.9506:

Turrets are disadvantaged? Turrets are better than Ranger Spirits, Guardian Spirit Weapons and Necro Minions combined. Turrets being immobile is a good thing. It means they don’t end up admiring walls while doing nothing when you’re getting mauled horribly in a fight due to broken pathing.

They can’t move – yes, that’s also a disadvantage, since it means they have no way to retaliate when outranged either – can’t get boons, can’t heal normally, their cooldown starts after their death, can’t crit, and their hp and toughness aren’t even that high since they were balanced over the lack of conditions and not being able to be critted.
They do have a bunch of disavantages. They still have those. They’re just getting new ones. And turrets are better than the ones you mentioned only because those one got nerfed in the past, anyway (during a time where turrets had something like 30 separate bugs and thus were useless for completely different reasons – aside from new traits or changes to them, turrets didn’t actually get buffs as far as i remember).

Aktium.9506:

I played Turret Engi all the way to Champ Genius. I know fully well how much better it is than other AI specs.

Of course, they just happened to be nerfed to oblivion before turrets were even fixed (the 30 or so bugs mentioned above).

And I never want to see the day when turrets are affected by their own Fury/Prot/Retal. And don’t act like Engineers are some kind of underdog class. Aside from WvW they’re at the top of viability in PvP and PvE.

PvP, maybe. Cele works well with the amount of hybrid skills the engineer got, until they’ll nerf it, of course. And obviously being a control-oriented class in a conquest mode has its advantages.
PvE, there is basically a single build that’s actually considered good, and it requires to spam grenades most of the time just to spam vulnerability. Sorry if i’m not exactly happy about such a ~fun~ build to play. But that’s OT, either way.

y ok.. who cares? engies are still very strong overall..
Dont you think tho that pvp needs a nice refreshing in balance? Bring a shake to this boring meta

TheGrimm.5624:

The change to conditions and the crit make sense. The ideas on the turret stop working if engi is not in range, not so much. That’s the point of a stationary device is that they can’t move. If you do this then you would need to change all marks, traps and anything else that can be left behind. Besides if you change too much at one time then you don’t know the true effect of the change. I think the bigger issue is the turrets that are suspended in mid air. Turrets should not be so nerfed into the ground that they go back to be being not viable as a build.

I call BS.. you leave.. your turrets should self destruct.. point final.
Or else make pets/summons & illusion do the same. See how you feel about that.

I main an engineer and of course nerfs always sting a little bit.

That being said I think the main idea to nerf turrets is OK.

Lets remember that unlike pets turrets are not mobile; they should be a little tankier as they do not follow the engineer or opponent around.

I do think the conditions makes sense as condition builds can always use a leg up in the current meta. It also adds some strategy to the low-skill turret build in terms of where you put your turrets to avoid condi.

Not sure about crits as I can imagine that makes using 1 turret fairly worthless in the berserker meta where it would be immediately 1-hit out of play…?

It would be nice of supply crate wasn’t useless after the nerf. For a non-turret spec engineer, hitting your elite skill and having the turrets knocked out in mere seconds seems weak. You can’t control placement and they will all be close together and easy for some classes to just walk through. Can we buff supply crate with shorter recycle or some boons.

Chaith.8256:

How could tactical depth and requirement think possibly be reduced by even deleting Turret builds off the face of the earth?

There has never been a build that requires less tactical depth and thinking than Turret Engineer does. Any player that abandons it for a more complex strategy will increase the average tactical thought that goes on in an average conquest match.

You know it needs to be gutted in teamfights when you can sit 2 Turret Engineers in a teamfight and overcome near any team in that endeavour.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/647594592

Watch the last NA monthly, start at 18:20. Turret Engies literally faceroll around the point in teamfights, with dodge rolling and occasionally auto-attacking. Do you know how freaking close a vastly superior team came to getting 2-0’d by a clown car full of turrets?

Don’t forget under what circumstancess a straight up NERF is warranted.

The combat effectiveness of this starter build in question will fortunately be brought back in line with the user’s ability to apply mechanical skill & game knowledge.

I think that in a 1v1, Turret Engineers (even whose Turrets can be much more easily killed) it will be extremely potent.

Everyone’s under the assumption that Turret Engineer will completely disappear from PvP. The thing is, Turret Engineer will still be a formidable 1v1 build, way stronger than the mechanical input of the owner should deserve.

If a player has mastered the use of keybinds instead of clicking, and generally has mastered conquest rotations, a starter A.I. build such as this should not be optimal! The build isn’t for those players. It’s for new players who need an alternative to getting their faces wrecked. Post-patch, the Turret build will still completely devastate low MMR brackets, I have no doubt. It will still dominate the uninitiated, have better than average 1v1 matchups, but fall off much quicker in teamfights.

Just like Spirit Weapons users, and Minionmancers.

It’s perfect!

PS. I would be in favor of a solution with more effort being expended (allowing Turrets to scale instead of doing arbitrarily high damage.) However, ArenaNet has the technical limitation of ‘gadgets’, to deal with, and this change was stated by them to be impossible. Turrets cannot be made to scale.

You are wrong in some points. Turret engis are broken to some extent, but a large part of the problem also comes from the meta.
Rangers, Mesmers and Engineers can reliably defeat turreteers in a straight up 1v1, rangers can do so before any defensive rotations can arrive. However, rangers are getting severely gutted by shoutbows and mesmers got driven out of the meta by thieves.
In the current meta:
-Thieves are helpless against turrets, can’t even 2v1 in some compositions
-Meta warrior builds are only useful as a meat shield against turreteers, same goes for meditaiton guardians. They got pressure, but they can’t finish the job.
-D/D eles with celestial have the celestial problem. They want to have their cake and eat it and thus stumble against a severely specialized class. They don’t have the damage to reliably take out a turreteer. If they bring a frost bow, however, they can 2v1 him easily.
-Celestial Engi is the only build capable of smashing turreteers in the current meta.

The thing is, most classes don’t lose to turreteers by design, but rather by choice. The meta has been broken up by the release of the Sentinel Amulet, which caused a rapid influx of turreteers. However, people still want to cling to their estabilshed meta and refuse to accept change.
I give you that. Turreteer has a balance problem. However, the problem is not with the turrets OR the engineer, the problem is with the interaction between turrets and player stats.
The facts, the current meta supports turret builds just makes these problems seem way larger than they truly are.

Vieux P.1238:

I call BS.. you leave.. your turrets should self destruct.. point final.
Or else make pets/summons & illusion do the same. See how you feel about that.

Again with these moot comparisons – those can follow the user, turrets can’t.
And since the cooldown start after their death – unlike other minions – an engineer that has gone away can’t even just destroy them and resummon.
He’ll have to survive with whatever he has left for that time, and the toolbelt.
Classes are different, and work in different ways.

I do not know that I would do both nerfs at once. You might overdo it.

I would go with crits for now since bleeding and poison don’t make a lot of sense on turrets.

Vieux P.1238:

TheGrimm.5624:

The change to conditions and the crit make sense. The ideas on the turret stop working if engi is not in range, not so much. That’s the point of a stationary device is that they can’t move. If you do this then you would need to change all marks, traps and anything else that can be left behind. Besides if you change too much at one time then you don’t know the true effect of the change. I think the bigger issue is the turrets that are suspended in mid air. Turrets should not be so nerfed into the ground that they go back to be being not viable as a build.

I call BS.. you leave.. your turrets should self destruct.. point final.
Or else make pets/summons & illusion do the same. See how you feel about that.

Not sure where BS comes into play since that’s why they are called automated, but, so what you are looking for is to make turrets into something a player mans? A hardpoint that grants extra armor and power when wielded? I play all classes except guard. How do you feel about traps, clones, minions? To me a stationary object is the easiest to defeat since it predictable and can not chase you. I do call BS on the mid-air issue and that needs to be addressed, and the other changes will make some sense and we need to see how it affects things. But if you nerf turrets too far you will need to buff them in other ways to balance them. And a side note, I don’t play a full turret engi, but I do use elite supplies and a turret in my build at times depending the setup.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turret

Love the changes personally. Address the turrets not despawning when being left/being put in mid air too please. Only downside is this hits supply crate, but it’s kind of over the top in a point game mode as well so I don’t mind as much, I think mortar and elixir x need to be looked at and buffed to help compensate engis though.

ok so here are my 2 cents (as a long time engi player) to the topic:
I think that after almost 2 years of uselessness you should be really careful with nerfs to the turrets so crit and condi nerf might be a little bit too much and as others have said condi damage is rather immersion breaking. It might be a good idea to do the crit damage nerf first and see how it plays out.
Most people would like to see turrets that require a more active gameplay. This could be achieved by doing some of the following tweaks:
1.) Turrets should not be on a cooldown if picked up. I don’t see too many problems with it an it would definately increase their overall viability for different builds.
The healing turret could be changed so that the initial healing when placed down would be moved to the overcharge but the healing turret could also stay unchanged.
When a damaged turret is picked up it gets a passive kind of regeneration (for the healing turret for example which currently has a 15 sec cooldown if picked up that would mean that it needs 15 seconds to get back from almost 0 to full HP). If the damaged turret is used within that time it is not back up at full HP. If a turret is destroyed it takes the full cooldown for it to be recreated (Healing turret for example 20 seconds).

2.) The flame turret amd the thumper turret should be overchargable outside of combat. these changes combined with the changes mentioned above would make these turrets more viable for pve and wvw situations aswell as builds that usually don’t use turrets without making them OP.

Rainiris.1975:

Turret Engi is OP but Shoutbow warrior is ok.
Turret Engi is OP but Guardian is ok.
Turret Engi is OP but Burst Mesmer is ok.
Turret Engi is OP but Power Necro is ok.
Turret Engi is OP but 50s cd is ok.

Bias logic.

The difference being, turret engi is basically AI playing the game whereas the rest actually require some human element to not be useless and can be pushed off the cap point.

There’s a thought- make them affected by knockbacks and pushbacks too- no reason why they stay rooted to the spot the way they currently do.

Dahkeus.8243:

Considering that turrets already hit hard enough to solo squishies like thieves and mesmers, I don’t think that they need to have critical hits, even if that does sound nice in theory.

What? Um, if this happening, they need to get out of zerk gear. If turrets by themselves took that Mez or Thief down then they need to go play an Engi to understand how to beat a turret. I will assume you meant while something else was there. Or are we talking about people running into range of a nest of turrets and standing in firing range of all of them at one time? If Engi’s do get mobile turrets as they appear in HoT footage it will be interesting.

GrandHaven.1052:

Laraley.7695:

I just don’t get why AI builds need to be viable.

They really don’t.

Are you of the opinion that all builds should be zerker?
Because condi is cheese.
Because bunkers are not killable.
Etc.

Turret engi is a bunker, that can still do respectable damage even while cced.

I approve this change. MM necros say hi! And at least your turrets don’t bug out.

Baldrick.8967:

Rainiris.1975:

Turret Engi is OP but Shoutbow warrior is ok.
Turret Engi is OP but Guardian is ok.
Turret Engi is OP but Burst Mesmer is ok.
Turret Engi is OP but Power Necro is ok.
Turret Engi is OP but 50s cd is ok.

Bias logic.

The difference being, turret engi is basically AI playing the game whereas the rest actually require some human element to not be useless and can be pushed off the cap point.

There’s a thought- make them affected by knockbacks and pushbacks too- no reason why they stay rooted to the spot the way they currently do.

One point to consider on the knockback front, could see that being a nightmare to code and people might knockback turrets to places that they can’t be hit at but they can still hit you. Could be problematic.

Interesting if you could heal your turrets just by yourself. But the healing must be cut in half then and I guess this wouldn’t be broken because you could’ve attacked instead of healing your turrets specially when the crit-able and condi-able turret change happens.

TheGrimm.5624:

Vieux P.1238:

TheGrimm.5624:

The change to conditions and the crit make sense. The ideas on the turret stop working if engi is not in range, not so much. That’s the point of a stationary device is that they can’t move. If you do this then you would need to change all marks, traps and anything else that can be left behind. Besides if you change too much at one time then you don’t know the true effect of the change. I think the bigger issue is the turrets that are suspended in mid air. Turrets should not be so nerfed into the ground that they go back to be being not viable as a build.

I call BS.. you leave.. your turrets should self destruct.. point final.
Or else make pets/summons & illusion do the same. See how you feel about that.

Not sure where BS comes into play since that’s why they are called automated, but, so what you are looking for is to make turrets into something a player mans? A hardpoint that grants extra armor and power when wielded? I play all classes except guard. How do you feel about traps, clones, minions? To me a stationary object is the easiest to defeat since it predictable and can not chase you. I do call BS on the mid-air issue and that needs to be addressed, and the other changes will make some sense and we need to see how it affects things. But if you nerf turrets too far you will need to buff them in other ways to balance them. And a side note, I don’t play a full turret engi, but I do use elite supplies and a turret in my build at times depending the setup.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turret

I call BS cuz the rest is mobile & your crying your not.. So you should be rewarded special compensation. Well boohoo!!!!! . Not 1 other class that can actually go afk on a cap like Engy can. So stop bluberring & asking for more. Cuz this is not a nerf. It’s obviously normal that turrets should take damage from every thing else like the rest of us. AFK….pffff.. this class is stupid as is.

So who needs mobility when you can just stand there?

Ok, ill agree for your turrets to be like floating drones instead. In condition, they Pop like mesmers clones. You cant have mobility, tanky & & OP damage all at the same time.

Vieux P.1238:

TheGrimm.5624:

Vieux P.1238:

TheGrimm.5624:

The change to conditions and the crit make sense. The ideas on the turret stop working if engi is not in range, not so much. That’s the point of a stationary device is that they can’t move. If you do this then you would need to change all marks, traps and anything else that can be left behind. Besides if you change too much at one time then you don’t know the true effect of the change. I think the bigger issue is the turrets that are suspended in mid air. Turrets should not be so nerfed into the ground that they go back to be being not viable as a build.

I call BS.. you leave.. your turrets should self destruct.. point final.
Or else make pets/summons & illusion do the same. See how you feel about that.

Not sure where BS comes into play since that’s why they are called automated, but, so what you are looking for is to make turrets into something a player mans? A hardpoint that grants extra armor and power when wielded? I play all classes except guard. How do you feel about traps, clones, minions? To me a stationary object is the easiest to defeat since it predictable and can not chase you. I do call BS on the mid-air issue and that needs to be addressed, and the other changes will make some sense and we need to see how it affects things. But if you nerf turrets too far you will need to buff them in other ways to balance them. And a side note, I don’t play a full turret engi, but I do use elite supplies and a turret in my build at times depending the setup.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turret

I call BS cuz the rest is mobile & your crying your not.. So you should be rewarded special compensation. Well boohoo!!!!! . Not 1 other class that can actually go afk on a cap like Engy can. So stop bluberring & asking for more. Cuz this is not a nerf. It’s obviously normal that turrets should take damage from every thing else like the rest of us. AFK….pffff.. this class is stupid as is.

So who needs mobility when you can just stand there?

Ok, ill agree for your turrets to be like floating drones instead. In condition, they Pop like mesmers clones. You cant have mobility, tanky & & OP damage all at the same time.

Ah the rage is strong in this one. Do you just play a Mez? It seems turrets have killed you quite a bit based on your post history. I am not a dev so I could be wrong, but I thought the intent of the class in the medium line was to be the bunker style class and that was the role they intended. I also never said the engi was not mobile and I don’t play a bunker, I said turrets are stationary, which, they are. That means you can pick how/where/when you engage them. Of note I am also coming at this from a POV of PvP/WvW/PvE. I think you are addressing it more from a I can’t stand on the cap point and not get shot POV. So if an Engi just drops their turrets in the middle of nowhere you are fine? Or do you have to track down and exterminate with extreme prejudice those rascally turrets. Sorry your tone seems to have made me snarky I am usually not that person on the forums. I agree lets see how the condi’s and crit play out. But in my book too many changes at one time will not create a balanced ability.

Does this effect mortar?

Vieux P.1238:

I call BS cuz the rest is mobile & your crying your not.. So you should be rewarded special compensation. Well boohoo!!!!! . Not 1 other class that can actually go afk on a cap like Engy can. So stop bluberring & asking for more. Cuz this is not a nerf. It’s obviously normal that turrets should take damage from every thing else like the rest of us. AFK….pffff.. this class is stupid as is.

So who needs mobility when you can just stand there?

Ok, ill agree for your turrets to be like floating drones instead. In condition, they Pop like mesmers clones. You cant have mobility, tanky & & OP damage all at the same time.

Again the moot comparisons. Engineers are not mesmers. Turrets aren’t clones. They are different, they work in different ways, they have different advantages and disadvantages (albeit, i can’t see much advantages left on turret’s part now).

And engineers even are disadvantaged to start with, anyway. No second main weapon and nothing is given by default to compensate for it.

The issue is that a big part of the turret issue is the healing turret. It is too strong. That’s also what gives the other OP spec, rifle, cele, nade so much sustain.

All ANET is doing is nerfing one spec without fixing the other. Both need to be addressed. As I’ve said in other posts, they need to implement one of two ideas:

1. Remove the water field from healing turret AND buff some of the other engi healing skills. It would be nice to see people running around with something other than turret

or

2. Add a cooldown between when an engi drops the healing turret and when they can use cleansing burst. Give it a few seconds so that people have a chance to destroy the turret. Right now it is insta cast so there is no counterplay.

Manuhell.2759:

they have no way to retaliate when outranged

Let me get back to you on how well sitting at 1500 range killing turrets works in Conquest. Not to mention that aside from Ranger and Staff Ele the rest of the classes can’t outrange traited turrets even if they wanted.

Manuhell.2759:

can’t heal normally

Turrets heal for about 370 every 3rd second. Thats better healing than you’re gonna see on other minions.

Manuhell.2759:

their cooldown starts after their death

You mean just like every other minion? Well how about that.

Manuhell.2759:

can’t crit

Yeah, the sick 4% crit chance other minions have really is something to be envious off.

Manuhell.2759:

And turrets are better than the ones you mentioned only because those one got nerfed in the past

The only Necro minion to be nerfed was Flesh Golem which was indirectly affected by the Fiery Greatsword nerf. Guardian Spirit Weapons were terrible even when they were invincible as well. Ranger Spirits deserved every single nerf they got. The protection uptime and burning they put out was not ok. Pre-nerf Spirit of Nature with that 480 aoe heal per sec was just stupid.

Manuhell.2759:

turrets didn’t actually get buffs as far as i remember.

Pretty sure they increased rate of fire across the board on all turrets last year.

Manuhell.2759:

PvE, there is basically a single build that’s actually considered good, and it requires to spam grenades most of the time just to spam vulnerability. Sorry if i’m not exactly happy about such a ~fun~ build to play. But that’s OT, either way.

Because other meta PvE builds are so fun to play? Man, I’m just giggling with joy every time I play Fractal Hammer Guard or PS Warr.

OMG i love you anet thanks for this change, this will helps a lot to balanced pvp.

I like these changes, but I agree with others in that I think if they are vulnerable to conditions they should be able to make use of boons. At the moment I think this will be too big a nerf on their survival and they may end up being hardly used.

We will have to see how it plays out. Hopefully if the nerf bat hits too hard they will look at it again and at least allow boons to effect turrets too. I’m willing to see how the change effects things first though, before asking for more changes, but I have my concerns.

Aktium.9506:

Manuhell.2759:

PvE, there is basically a single build that’s actually considered good, and it requires to spam grenades most of the time just to spam vulnerability. Sorry if i’m not exactly happy about such a ~fun~ build to play. But that’s OT, either way.

Because other meta PvE builds are so fun to play? Man, I’m just giggling with joy every time I play Fractal Hammer Guard or PS Warr.

The biggest difference between Guard/Warrior and Engineer though, is that Guards and warriors have about 3 or so different builds that are all considered good and usable in almost any area of the game. Engineer however has 2 good builds, the turrets and grenades. Even when traited out for condi damage and juggernaut trait, the flamethrower is weak. With this update one good burst skill from an ele will destroy an turret in the area. That just leaves grenade build left for engi and if you’re not good at constantly clicking every skill because there is no auto attack, or if you just aren’t good at ground targetting quickly, then I guess that’s it…

NeXeD.3042:

GrandHaven.1052:

Laraley.7695:

I just don’t get why AI builds need to be viable.

They really don’t.

Are you of the opinion that all builds should be zerker?
Because condi is cheese.
Because bunkers are not killable.
Etc.

Turret engi is a bunker, that can still do respectable damage even while cced.

I approve this change. MM necros say hi! And at least your turrets don’t bug out.

this was the prob, they could bunk AND crush people. if people bunk, they bunk, they dps, they dps, and if u want to hybrid, go for it, but you shouldn’t be able to do both so well and easily, some give and some take, not have cake and eat it too

Aktium.9506:

Manuhell.2759:

they have no way to retaliate when outranged

Let me get back to you on how well sitting at 1500 range killing turrets works in Conquest. Not to mention that aside from Ranger and Staff Ele the rest of the classes can’t outrange traited turrets even if they wanted.

Playing the fence here, I think that’s part of the issue here is that there are a number of differing factors. Floating/unreachable turrets is a whole different issue. Not sure how much this addresses that. Likewise some people are talking about fully traited 100% turret builds and some people are referring to having elite supplies or a turret in their skills. Before making further changes, lets see how the one they want to make affects things. Its already something that will be hard to measure as is. Forums are the place people go to say, I died, remove rock, but scissors is just fine. Good hunting to you!

Turrets shouldn’t be affected in PvE. We need skill splits. I don’t want little circles on the ground and channeling supply in Stronghold to dictate what a class can do in PvE. It’s asinine.

Eight Samurai.6840:

Aktium.9506:

Manuhell.2759:

PvE, there is basically a single build that’s actually considered good, and it requires to spam grenades most of the time just to spam vulnerability. Sorry if i’m not exactly happy about such a ~fun~ build to play. But that’s OT, either way.

Because other meta PvE builds are so fun to play? Man, I’m just giggling with joy every time I play Fractal Hammer Guard or PS Warr.

The biggest difference between Guard/Warrior and Engineer though, is that Guards and warriors have about 3 or so different builds that are all considered good and usable in almost any area of the game. Engineer however has 2 good builds, the turrets and grenades. Even when traited out for condi damage and juggernaut trait, the flamethrower is weak. With this update one good burst skill from an ele will destroy an turret in the area. That just leaves grenade build left for engi and if you’re not good at constantly clicking every skill because there is no auto attack, or if you just aren’t good at ground targetting quickly, then I guess that’s it…

Not sure I agree here, Engi is a jack of all trades and there are a large number of differing builds. I will agree not all fit all roles so it depends on which role you are targetting.