Guild Wars 2

Manuhell.2759:

Peutrifectus.4830:

Er.. Kits…. Lots of kits…

…that are optional, not given by default, and require utility slots to be used. Even if it was so, engineer would end up paying a price – lack of a second weapon – and then paying additional prices – in utility slots – to make up for it.

Still, a full turret, gadget or elixir build has no second main weapon, but has no kit either.
Thus either the design is flawed, or the answer is wrong and something else has to make up for it. Retry.

Yeah, they’re optional… And we have 4…
That’s right F O U R f1 skills….

They’re optional, yes. You’re just not taking that option. Your choice

1 word.. Burn turret Burn!
oh, thats 3 word

Aktium.9506:

Let me get back to you on how well sitting at 1500 range killing turrets works in Conquest. Not to mention that aside from Ranger and Staff Ele the rest of the classes can’t outrange traited turrets even if they wanted.

The alternative – that is already done by some classes, anyway (also,you missed engineers themselves there, with traited grenades) is that turrets just stay there and get mauled without doing anything.
Anyway, overcoming that limitation requires a grandmaster trait. And it can be done only with some turrets, anyway.

Aktium.9506:

Turrets heal for about 370 every 3rd second. Thats better healing than you’re gonna see on other minions.

It requires yet another trait (master). Natively, you just can’t. Unless you spend a slot on a tool kit (and then you end up with two turrets and an untraited kit).

Aktium.9506:

You mean just like every other minion? Well how about that.

I was kinda sure it wasn’t true for all the minions/AI pets of sort , but i could be wrong about that. I do admit my memory isn’t great, unfortunately.

Aktium.9506:

Yeah, the sick 4% crit chance other minions have really is something to be envious off.

Overcharged rifle turret could benefit from that, the rate of fire is kinda nice after all. And a rocket occasionally critting would be nice as well. Anyway, it doesn’t even have to be the same value. You know, different classes and all.

Aktium.9506:

Pretty sure they increased rate of fire across the board on all turrets last year.

Again, i’ll have to trust my memory about that (so better check it later) but as far as i remember, they only fixed them (net turret was also nerfed, though).

Aktium.9506:

Because other meta PvE builds are so fun to play? Man, I’m just giggling with joy every time I play Fractal Hammer Guard or PS Warr.

At least it doesn’t require you to spam 1 for a good amount of time. As grenades have no proper autoattack, but you still have to deal that vulnerability after all. Truly a carpal tunnel syndrome build, ugh.

As I said before, this make turrets disposable. The Turret build and it’s traits are dead. Now it’s either Cele Engi or no Engi at all. Even my Bomb build that I’ve been running with Turrets is dead. Thumper is only 12k hp and it’ll get nuked down in seconds. The only thing that could be useful would be to trait for “Accelerant-Packed Turrets” and drop turrets just to proc the trait. Which certainly isn’t good enough of a trait to be of used.

This is a fix for PvP.

Fix this ONLY for PvP.

Honest question, do area cleanses (combos, shouts, aoe skills) target players over npcs first? I play engi mostly and I don’t really care about the changes. I think it may see a hit to healing turret IF it’s not blown up for the condition cleanse right away but it needed it. I agree the supply crate will need to be looked at since this is a nerf to that skill. Maybe shave off some time on the cool down.

At the end of the day, when the turret dies, it will still explode and trigger knock backs. So the CC will still be there. Most turret engi’s place the turrets off point so they aren’t going to melt all at once. I would say a tweak to supply crate is about all that is needed. Also I agree, no more turrets in the air.

Peutrifectus.4830:

Yeah, they’re optional… And we have 4…
That’s right F O U R f1 skills….

…that are our class mechanic.
Other classes have got their class mechanic as well. Some even still have 3 or 4 skills like us. Yet, they still have their main weapon. Clearly that’s not the answer, then.

Peutrifectus.4830:

They’re optional, yes. You’re just not taking that option. Your choice

Then you’re saying that the engineer are an inferior class by default.
And that unless they slot a specific subset of utilities – kits- they can’t be on par with other classes. By design. While paying a yet additional cost – utilities’ slots are limited, after all. Other classes get that weapon slot for free, you know.

That’s quite some design flaw, you know – a forced drawback for something optional, with an additional cost involved.
I await eagerly for the moment when we’ll be brought back inline with the other classes. That’s a given, right?

Only person using the words, “inferior class” is you bub.

Now your trying to put words in my mouth. You clearly don’t want a discussion, you want bias confirmation of your OPINION… not gonna happen bub!

naphack.9346:

Laraley.7695:

Manuhell.2759:

Laraley.7695:

I don’t really care, if turret engi is not viable anymore, then it’s good for the game. It should NOT be viable even.

That was what i was saying above, you know. You don’t even want them redesigned, just made useless, and just because you hate “turrets”. Even going as far as saying that’s good for the game. Hah.

No, I said I don’t care and I really don’t. Yes, it is good for the game if there are not builds like turret engi viable. You know why? Because as a player I appreciate good gameplay and fighting people who are skilled. Turret engis promote bad play, it takes literally no skill to play one, therefore creating an enviroment when being good at the game means nothing. Since this is pvp and ANet wants to go esports, builds like this should never exist. In ranked, unranked, tournament, anywhere.

naphack.9346:

If you hate diversity, how about: Remove all classes from the game, remove all traits from the game, remove all amulets from the game.
Have everyone play as a d/d ele with celestial and 0/2/0/6/6 build and cantrips. Then everyone will be happy, right?

Reducing build diversity is never healthy to a game and it’s never a “good” thing. Reducing tactical depth and the requirement to think, before you act, is even worse for a game. By systematically removing everything which strays from the “norm”, whatever this “norm” may actually be, is what kills games.

It’s not diversity, every engi plays turrets because it’s that much effective. Why should we remove all classes and amulets? Just removing turret engi is enough. The game needs diversity, yes but not in AI builds.

By playing turret engi you reduce tactical depth and the requirement to think.

You are already speaking hyperbole, yet still mix in factually false statements.
1) People don’t play turret engi, because they want to play engineer. People play turret engi, because they want to bunker and turrets are the most effective way of BUNKERING right now. People still play celestial rifle, condi, … Yesterday, I even encountered a decap engi.
2) Turret engi adds a lot of tactical decisions and depth to the game. It increases the significance of good rotations, because it punishes bad rotations. It also increases the significance of good defensive rotations, because the build is easily overwhelmed by the right composition in a 2v1.
3) Yes. The game needs more diversity. This would actually solve the turret engi problem by itself. Turret engi is only so effective right now, because half the field is shoutbows, celestial eles and meditation guards, which all have one thing in common: They are useless against turret engis and all 3 of those classes in theory have builds, which are more efficient at either bursting down turret engis or pressuring them on point for a dps to nail them. For the ele, just bringing a frost bow is enough to nail the turret engi in a 2v1 situation.
4) About the skill: Yes and no. If 2 guys, who just started playing, had a fight and one of them rolled a celestial ele, with the other rolling turret engi, he’d certainly win. Now, if they met again with more experience, it’d be a long, drawn out fight, only to be broken up by other player’s rotations. With both of them being very good players, the turret engi would always lose after a drawn out skirmish(because again cele isn’t good against turret engi).

1. People don’t play turrets because they want to bunker. They play it because it takes the least effort and has high reward, stop being naive. There are tons of bunker builds, but the turreter is the most braindead.
2. This is the most hilarious thing I’ve read on the forums ever. Turret engi adds lots of tactical decisions and depth to the game? How exactly? It’s the build that requires the LEAST thinking in the entire game.
3. Not true at all again. People play it because it’s effective while it requires almost no effort. Zerker specs are good against cele, too but you don’t see people complaining about everyone running zerker. You know why? Because zerker specs actually require at least a bit of thinking and have higher risk/reward ratio than turret engi.
4. Completely different. Turret engi doesn’t require much skill but that doesn’t mean skilled people can’t play it. However, they don’t because they actually value skill and want to get better, at least the majority of them.

finally THE FIX FOR TURRETS we allllll waiting for , thx Anet

Engis will get over it, they have enough kits and spammable skills

Can we change the name to death of turrets we have enough proof that those on the pro side know turrets will be useless everywhere and are happy with it. Can we at least be honest here I don’t care about rework anymore but at least be honest. Healing turret will be fine because we don’t use it as a turret and it’s rewarded differently if the other ones were like that too it would be better. So yeah I propose a change of title.

I think this is a great first step to pulling turret engis back into line. While currently the turrets aren’t impossible to kill, you often have to choose between focusing the engi or trying to destroy the turrets. In addition, the cc they offer makes fighting them very annoying. I think these two changes force turret engis to rethink their game play. Turret positioning will become a lot more important (though I agree the mid air turret thing should also be addressed).

My only suggetion would be to possibly look at slightly reducing the cooldown on turrets once they are destroyed. Considering turrets are the bread and butter of this build, if turrets can suddenly be bursted or cleaved down quickly it may really hurt the pvp viability of the build. Being able to redelpoy turrets more quickly than you can currently may help with that. It would then require the engineer to be more clever about using their evade and healing skills in order to re-set up.

Just a suggestion.

Josh Davis.6015:

Considering most minions/summoned pets are already susceptible to the aforementioned changes we feel that this is a fair way to bring turrets more inline with the rest of the game.

So when are we going to be able to hit/critical hit Warrior BANNERS?

will poison reduce healing from autotool installation?

will you be tweaking turret hp to find a new balance point for the extra dps theyll suddenly be subjected to?

turrets immediately taking 50% more power damage from dps specs with current hp levels seems imbalanced. turrets immediately taking condi damage with current hp levels seems imbalanced.

Josh Davis.6015:

We’d love to hear your feedback on these changes. Feel free to respond below with your comments.

My feedback is even though I run a turret Engineer on Engineer days in the daily quests rotation, there is just no good reason people who invest in Precision or condition damage builds should have that investment nullified when attacking turrets.

Its a great change and it won’t stop me from running my turret engineer, it’ll just make me be more aware of placement so they are less likely to get cross-infected by epidemic .

insanemaniac.2456:

will poison reduce healing from autotool installation?

Good question. I assume so. That’s the functionality people using poison deserve to have.

will you be tweaking turret hp to find a new balance point for the extra dps theyll suddenly be subjected to?

turrets immediately taking 50% more power damage from dps specs with current hp levels seems imbalanced. turrets immediately taking condi damage with current hp levels seems imbalanced.

Since they are viewed as over-performing now (or the change wouldn’t be happening at all), I think we can be pretty sure they’re NOT looking to take additional steps that keep them on par with current performance.

Peutrifectus.4830:

Only person using the words, “inferior class” is you bub.

And that’s a fact. Engineer haven’t got a second main weapon and you weren’t able to say anything, given by default, that would make up for it.

Now your trying to put words in my mouth. You clearly don’t want a discussion, you want bias confirmation of your OPINION… not gonna happen bub!

Oh, everyone can follow the discussion above, you know. There is no opinion involved. Engineers have a single main weapon, that’s a fact.
Kits aren’t given for free, since you have to use utilities’ slots to use them. That’s another fact.
And you think that kits make up for the lack of a second weapon. You wrote that above. That’s a fact as well.
If engineers need them just to be on par with other classes, then it just means that engineers are, by default, an inferior class compared to the others. Else they would be on par to start with, they wouldn’t need kits.
It all comes out from your arguments. Live with it.

An important question, I picked up in the engineer forum:

Will this also affect Mortar?

@Manuhell…. And the notion that one weapon set makes Engi’s inferior is your opinion.

Let’s be able to swap rifle to pistol shield at will… Then let’s see the forums cry :-D

cheer up bub, it might never happen

@naphack. I think it’s going to make people think a bit more about supply crate… Unless you take APT and use it as a glorified CC field. I so wish for a more gadgety elite…

Nike.2631:

insanemaniac.2456:

will poison reduce healing from autotool installation?

Good question. I assume so. That’s the functionality people using poison deserve to have.

will you be tweaking turret hp to find a new balance point for the extra dps theyll suddenly be subjected to?

turrets immediately taking 50% more power damage from dps specs with current hp levels seems imbalanced. turrets immediately taking condi damage with current hp levels seems imbalanced.

Since they are viewed as over-performing now (or the change wouldn’t be happening at all), I think we can be pretty sure they’re NOT looking to take additional steps that keep them on par with current performance.

the thing is, no spec in the game ever considered to be OP has ever been overperforming by more than about 20%. turrets are not overperforming so much that a “33% hp nerf” (that increasing damage done to them by 50% would effect) would do anything but simply make them unviable.

im not necessarily only considering the viability of a turret build with the question. if my healing turret dies to random aoes and i cant get my blast off, my healing is nerfed on any engi spec. currently, healing turret can take 2-4 hits. when its 1 shot, i dont have time to deal with it and i end up wasting my f1 because of muscle memory. in all game modes. on any engi spec.

Excellent chages and the reasoning behind them rock solid. I really don’t want to hear about Engineers not being diverse enough now that’s something just about every class in the game but Engineers have dealt with at times and really some classes have gone extended periods of time with 1 or zero meta approved builds. Really Engineers have been the balance golden child always a strong class that either gets boosted or nerfed inconsequentially. Sometimes a class needs to be nerfed hard in some aspect and then after a few months you reconsider them. Something sadly A-net rarely does.

Being a turret engi, I have to agree with what one of my friends said about this being a lazy fix. Instead of actually trying to balance it, you just straight up nerf turrets.

Not only can they get effected by critical hits and condis, there’s no way to even TRY to get rid of the condis. This is just a way to appease all of the lazy players who don’t try to find a counter to it. This will completely kill turrets, and why have something as an option if it won’t do any good. It’s just as good as taking them out of the game completely.

I’m not disagreeing that they needed to be changed, but making them useless is going a bit too far.

Peutrifectus.4830:

@Manuhell…. And the notion that one weapon set makes Engi’s inferior is your opinion.

Let’s be able to swap rifle with pistol shield… Then let’s see the forums cry :-D

That’s no opinion, it is just logic.
Engineers lack a second weapon. Everyone else has either got a second weapon or four attunements (that end up working like four weapon sets, even if balanced in a different way, and are also their class mechanic).
Every other class with a second main weapon also still has their mechanic.
Either there is something given by default that makes up for the lack of the second weapon, or there isn’t.
If there isn’t, engineer are inferior by default.
Again, that’s just pure logic. It’s not difficult.

All the bad players coming here to defend Turret engis. Guess we know who relies on them and who doesn’t.

Shinju.1083:

Being a turret engi, I have to agree with what one of my friends said about this being a lazy fix. Instead of actually trying to balance it, you just straight up nerf turrets.

Not only can they get effected by critical hits and condis, there’s no way to even TRY to get rid of the condis. This is just a way to appease all of the lazy players who don’t try to find a counter to it. This will completely kill turrets, and why have something as an option if it won’t do any good. It’s just as good as taking them out of the game completely.

I kinda see where you’re coming from dude. If you view it in vacuum then yeah, it seems a bit lazy but you’ve got to give it to Them for one thing. The change is pretty much what the community has been calling for without being too heavy handed. It could have been much worse.

Most smart Engi’s put rocket or rifle turret out or cleave distance…. Where as complete mooks place them in mid air :-/

I wonder if aoe condi cleanse will affect them ie traited war shouts, cleansing burst, eg5 etc?

Peutrifectus.4830:

Shinju.1083:

Being a turret engi, I have to agree with what one of my friends said about this being a lazy fix. Instead of actually trying to balance it, you just straight up nerf turrets.

Not only can they get effected by critical hits and condis, there’s no way to even TRY to get rid of the condis. This is just a way to appease all of the lazy players who don’t try to find a counter to it. This will completely kill turrets, and why have something as an option if it won’t do any good. It’s just as good as taking them out of the game completely.

I kinda see where you’re coming from dude. If you view it in vacuum then yeah, it seems a bit lazy but you’ve got to give it to Them for one thing. The change is pretty much what the community has been calling for without being too heavy handed. It could have been much worse.

Most smart Engi’s put rocket or rifle turret out or cleave distance…. Where as complete mooks place them in mid air :-/

I wonder if aoe condi cleanse will affect them ie traited war shouts, cleansing burst, eg5 etc?

I think heals will help them, but I’m not sure if it will cleanse them. But not being able to cleanse of the condis is really painful. The fact that it IS exactly what the community wanted is why it’s lazy. They never try to go in the middle where both sides will be happy.

My friend brought up some ideas for changes that will make it less AI oriented and more player based and I agree: Make the auto attack damage like a fly in your face, annoying but not destructive, and instead make the damage have a chance of critical if the player activates it. “High risk, high reward.”
Let the turrets be damaged by crits and condis, but let the player cleanse if they need to. And this talk about it being like pets and minions is bull s***. Those can move out of the damage while turrets can’t. Rangers can just swap pets, if one dies you swap, if that onedies swap again. There is no comparison. And if you can’t cleanse them? GG.

Thumper Turret: 11950
Flame Turret: 8960
Rifle Turret: 7470
Net Turret: 7470
Rocket Turret: 7470

Just a heads up, this means:
1 Conbustive shot + 1 Geomancy sigil proc (alone) with celestial gear and no might stacking (less than 500 condi damage) and no bleed duration trait (standard shoutbow)

Combustive shot (3 bars) does 460 damagex12+ 278 damage x4
Total: 5520 + 1112
And 3 stacks of bleed for 10 seconds does 194×10
Total: 1940.

Thats 8572 damage on something that doesn’t move, doesn’t cleanse etc. This is why pets already don’t exist in PVP except turrets.

1 move and a weapon swap (both aoe) can literally kill 3/5 of the turrets in no time at all. Given actual combat scenarios, yes, these are completely useless. Doesn’t take rocket science to realize that this will make them obsolete.

My favourite suggestion so far has been to leave them as is, only have them self-destruct straight after an overcharge.

Epidemic will absolutely ruin turret engineers now, I can’t wait. Necromancers will be able to counter them well like they’re supposed to.

BlackBeard.2873:

A good start, it especially makes condi and celestial builds truly stronger. I guess something like shatter mesmer can also stack up vuln on turrets too. However, if you still allow turrets to be placed mid-air, it won’t change too much.

Cele builds are already pushing a large number of possible builds to the side. Making them stronger will just make less builds viable to play at all. I don’t think that’s a good thing, having everyone play only a certain amount of builds because nothing else can survive is just dumb.

Sabre.8627:

Epidemic will absolutely ruin turret engineers now, I can’t wait. Necromancers will be able to counter them well like they’re supposed to.

…Or you could, you know, fear chain them for 80 million damage because they have no condi clear or stunbreaks!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

ronpierce.2760:

Thumper Turret: 11950
Flame Turret: 8960
Rifle Turret: 7470
Net Turret: 7470
Rocket Turret: 7470

Just a heads up, this means:
1 Conbustive shot + 1 Geomancy sigil proc (alone) with celestial gear and no might stacking (less than 500 condi damage) and no bleed duration trait (standard shoutbow)

Combustive shot (3 bars) does 460 damagex12+ 278 damage x4
Total: 5520 + 1112
And 3 stacks of bleed for 10 seconds does 194×10
Total: 1940.

Thats 8572 damage on something that doesn’t move, doesn’t cleanse etc. This is why pets already don’t exist in PVP except turrets.

1 move and a weapon swap (both aoe) can literally kill 3/5 of the turrets in no time at all. Given actual combat scenarios, yes, these are completely useless. Doesn’t take rocket science to realize that this will make them obsolete.

I completely agree

Sabre.8627:

Epidemic will absolutely ruin turret engineers now, I can’t wait. Necromancers will be able to counter them well like they’re supposed to.

There will be no countering. There will just be 2 seconds of destruction and then they’re gone. Read what Ronpierce said. That is just a regular warrior with no might.

SobeSoul.6910:

Mid air turrets need to be looked into and fixed.

As a celestial rifle engineer, the amount of CC turrets do on top of the rifle is a bit extreme. People claim simple rifle CC is over the top. If I was in the balancing team, I would look into maybe getting rid of rocket knock downs.

But if turrets are going to be easily cleavable then maybe not do that.

The whole purpose of Rocket turret is to knock down. -_-
If you get rid of that, it’s pointless. Also, if you get rid of the floating turrets, it will literally be game over for ANY turret. With the condis effect and the crits?

This reminds me of the Power Block nerf, except it took Anet a hot second to “fix” that, while it’s taking ages for them to fix turrets. Hmmm

Shinju.1083:

ronpierce.2760:

Thumper Turret: 11950
Flame Turret: 8960
Rifle Turret: 7470
Net Turret: 7470
Rocket Turret: 7470

Just a heads up, this means:
1 Conbustive shot + 1 Geomancy sigil proc (alone) with celestial gear and no might stacking (less than 500 condi damage) and no bleed duration trait (standard shoutbow)

Combustive shot (3 bars) does 460 damagex12+ 278 damage x4
Total: 5520 + 1112
And 3 stacks of bleed for 10 seconds does 194×10
Total: 1940.

Thats 8572 damage on something that doesn’t move, doesn’t cleanse etc. This is why pets already don’t exist in PVP except turrets.

1 move and a weapon swap (both aoe) can literally kill 3/5 of the turrets in no time at all. Given actual combat scenarios, yes, these are completely useless. Doesn’t take rocket science to realize that this will make them obsolete.

I completely agree

Sabre.8627:

Epidemic will absolutely ruin turret engineers now, I can’t wait. Necromancers will be able to counter them well like they’re supposed to.

There will be no countering. There will just be 2 seconds of destruction and then they’re gone. Read what Ronpierce said. That is just a regular warrior with no might.

This is a very simplistic view though. No one who is smart puts their turrets in one place. Sure, if I put all my turrets on point together where they can be aoe’d then this is correct but you don’t. You put them around the point off to the side where they can’t be aoe’d. At most you will get thumper and healing turret together with the engi.

Thiefz.3695:

Shinju.1083:

ronpierce.2760:

Thumper Turret: 11950
Flame Turret: 8960
Rifle Turret: 7470
Net Turret: 7470
Rocket Turret: 7470

Just a heads up, this means:
1 Conbustive shot + 1 Geomancy sigil proc (alone) with celestial gear and no might stacking (less than 500 condi damage) and no bleed duration trait (standard shoutbow)

Combustive shot (3 bars) does 460 damagex12+ 278 damage x4
Total: 5520 + 1112
And 3 stacks of bleed for 10 seconds does 194×10
Total: 1940.

Thats 8572 damage on something that doesn’t move, doesn’t cleanse etc. This is why pets already don’t exist in PVP except turrets.

1 move and a weapon swap (both aoe) can literally kill 3/5 of the turrets in no time at all. Given actual combat scenarios, yes, these are completely useless. Doesn’t take rocket science to realize that this will make them obsolete.

I completely agree

Sabre.8627:

Epidemic will absolutely ruin turret engineers now, I can’t wait. Necromancers will be able to counter them well like they’re supposed to.

There will be no countering. There will just be 2 seconds of destruction and then they’re gone. Read what Ronpierce said. That is just a regular warrior with no might.

This is a very simplistic view though. No one who is smart puts their turrets in one place. Sure, if I put all my turrets on point together where they can be aoe’d then this is correct but you don’t. You put them around the point off to the side where they can’t be aoe’d. At most you will get thumper and healing turret together with the engi.

Combustive shot is large enough to hit at least thumper and likely one of the other two, if they’re too far out they’re not getting any boons (and regardless, it will be simple to single target down the rocket after this). Its as complex as it has to be, they will get destroyed by a sneeze.

Delicious turret engis tears. I know its sad but you will actually have to l2p the game instead of letting the AI do the work for you. I can’t wait till they implement this

glock.6590:

Delicious turret engis tears. I know its sad but you will actually have to l2p the game instead of letting the AI do the work for you. I can’t wait till they implement this

I don’t even play turrets. I just, you know, give a kitten when a company gets paid to design a game, and their version of design is break everything instead of using any amount of critical thinking.

Sorry if I missed it (8 pages and all) but I presume that healing turret would cleanse some conds off the turrets as well?

Thiefz.3695:

Shinju.1083:

ronpierce.2760:

Thumper Turret: 11950
Flame Turret: 8960
Rifle Turret: 7470
Net Turret: 7470
Rocket Turret: 7470

Just a heads up, this means:
1 Conbustive shot + 1 Geomancy sigil proc (alone) with celestial gear and no might stacking (less than 500 condi damage) and no bleed duration trait (standard shoutbow)

Combustive shot (3 bars) does 460 damagex12+ 278 damage x4
Total: 5520 + 1112
And 3 stacks of bleed for 10 seconds does 194×10
Total: 1940.

Thats 8572 damage on something that doesn’t move, doesn’t cleanse etc. This is why pets already don’t exist in PVP except turrets.

1 move and a weapon swap (both aoe) can literally kill 3/5 of the turrets in no time at all. Given actual combat scenarios, yes, these are completely useless. Doesn’t take rocket science to realize that this will make them obsolete.

I completely agree

Sabre.8627:

Epidemic will absolutely ruin turret engineers now, I can’t wait. Necromancers will be able to counter them well like they’re supposed to.

There will be no countering. There will just be 2 seconds of destruction and then they’re gone. Read what Ronpierce said. That is just a regular warrior with no might.

This is a very simplistic view though. No one who is smart puts their turrets in one place. Sure, if I put all my turrets on point together where they can be aoe’d then this is correct but you don’t. You put them around the point off to the side where they can’t be aoe’d. At most you will get thumper and healing turret together with the engi.

Any good player will never put all of the turrets on the point. That’s turret suicide. But with the update it won’t matter anyway, just put one well down, or send the pet to kill it, anything that makes YOU not have to attack it, and it will die in less than 10 seconds.

glock.6590:

Delicious turret engis tears. I know its sad but you will actually have to l2p the game instead of letting the AI do the work for you. I can’t wait till they implement this

Why don’t you try the build that I play (non-meta version). You’ll see that it isn’t just about auto attacking and waiting for the turrets to do their auto attacks. Not all turret engis do the cheap build.

Sounds like they’ll be changed from structures to “creatures.” So they’ll take boons also now?

glock.6590:

Delicious turret engis tears. I know its sad but you will actually have to l2p the game instead of letting the AI do the work for you. I can’t wait till they implement this

I play a Turreteer and I am actually pleased with these proposed changes. Why should engineer “pets” be excluded from the same things that other class “pets” can have happen to them? The only exception is that turrets do not move, but their effectiveness in sPvP is such that this doesn’t seem to be much of an issue.

I honestly haven’t heard any turreteers crying about this though. The build is almost completely about defensive strategy and placement, as opposed to an offensive assault build that encompasses the usual people who complain about turrets in the first place (for obvious reasons). That does not make it brain dead in any way.

Increasing the damage players can do to turrets is a great solution, imo. Now most builds CAN beat turrets with the right strategy (actually targeting down the turrets), whereas previously almost any squishy build was immediately hard-countered b/c turrets take SO LONG to kill while doing very high ranged damage.

Does anyone recall the game with APEX and SNP, where Apex’s thief went far against turrets (no engie there), and ended up leaving with 30% health while he was just trying to dps down the turrets…that is disgusting.

With good positioning of turrets, turret engie will still be able to beat inexperienced players a few times, but will not be able to consistently beat much better players who actually have to think. That is about where such a low skill-floor/ low skill-cap build should be. Turrets aren’t being nerfed out of viability, just being nerfed out of high-level viability. I think the only people defending the spec are those that enjoy AI or want to ride the turret-train straight to llama town without having to actually learn how to play a more challenging spec.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Sounds like they’ll be changed from structures to “creatures.” So they’ll take boons also now?

I can only assume that they would be allowed to receive boons if they could also receive conditions. This could potentially backfire on the turreteer if their turrets are granting survivability boons to the other turrets instead of their teammates, but it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out.

MiniEquine.6014:

glock.6590:

Delicious turret engis tears. I know its sad but you will actually have to l2p the game instead of letting the AI do the work for you. I can’t wait till they implement this

I play a Turreteer and I am actually pleased with these proposed changes. Why should engineer “pets” be excluded from the same things that other class “pets” can have happen to them? The only exception is that turrets do not move, but their effectiveness in sPvP is such that this doesn’t seem to be much of an issue.

I honestly haven’t heard any turreteers crying about this though. The build is almost completely about defensive strategy and placement, as opposed to an offensive assault build that encompasses the usual people who complain about turrets in the first place (for obvious reasons). That does not make it brain dead in any way.

Why should engineer “pets” be excluded from the same thing, other classes “pets” can have given to them by allies? Same story.

naphack.9346:

MiniEquine.6014:

glock.6590:

Delicious turret engis tears. I know its sad but you will actually have to l2p the game instead of letting the AI do the work for you. I can’t wait till they implement this

I play a Turreteer and I am actually pleased with these proposed changes. Why should engineer “pets” be excluded from the same things that other class “pets” can have happen to them? The only exception is that turrets do not move, but their effectiveness in sPvP is such that this doesn’t seem to be much of an issue.

I honestly haven’t heard any turreteers crying about this though. The build is almost completely about defensive strategy and placement, as opposed to an offensive assault build that encompasses the usual people who complain about turrets in the first place (for obvious reasons). That does not make it brain dead in any way.

Why should engineer “pets” be excluded from the same thing, other classes “pets” can have given to them by allies? Same story.

I agree. The new turret designs should definitely be able to receive boons. Their survivability will be much less anyway, so it would only make sense.

To all the classes that usually avoid turret nests thieves, mesmers, certan warriors and guardians…. Please consider this every class/build has its kryptonite a squishy crit thief poping in a turret nest to do a backstab is probably going to die very quickly it happens its not a thiefs strong point as a mater of fact its their Kryptonite. If superman didnt have his kryptonite his stories wouldnt be that entertaining because no one could stop him. We want Superman to have his weaknesses as we have our own to make our lives more challenging.

If there were one class/build that owned all we would all play it, all drive gray Priuses, all wear gray suits. all do the same job and live in the same type house that are all same shade of gray. Does anyone want to live that life?

I play a turret engi and do agree that something needs to give, but realize that theres a counter to every build/class and noone will win every situation get over it. Ive seen mostly thieves mesmers and warriors kitten moan and complain about how they cant get past a turret engi, well have you tried another approach? it just may work but youll have to look outside the meta in some situations.

Have a nice day.

Sagat.3285:

Turk.5460:

Sagat.3285:

Turk.5460:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

+1 After careful and proper thoughts I realize they do that for mostly everything and also sometimes they revert it but somewhere no one wants to go and don’t make it attractive and they call it genius and innovative, I predict a trait that prevents crit/condi on turrets above a threshold at some point maybe and maybe not. I should stop posting on this thread too much negativity can come from it, I’ll let the casual whiners have it.

And the turret defending whiners are retreating!

Defending turrets?? I proposed changes to make them more active in addition to the 2 certain ones all you want is nerf with your lack of decent creativity. I’m referring to class balance a specific one that they ignored forever but that’s off-topic. It seems it’s not that hard to identify a casual whiner.

They are! And the zealous defenders are even easier to spot, however, considering how much higher up on their pedestal they are.

You can stop trying with the b8 m8 it ain’t gr8. Do yourself a favor and don’t turn into a forum warrior.

Isn’t that exactly what you did in the quoted text though? Haha! Yes. Yes it was.

As an engie main, I feel that this specific change is a long time coming; turrets are not used in PvE for completely different reasons. However, at the same time, I’d like if turrets weren’t useless against any boss that has a floor-based AoE attack like so many of the newer ones do.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hi all,

As a follow-up to my post from last Friday, I wanted to give you a run-down of the changes we’re looking to make to the engineer’s turrets:

• Engineer turrets will be able to be critically hit. (Edit for clarity: this change means the turrets can take critical hits against them, but they still cannot deal critical hits themselves.)
• Engineer turrets will be able to be affected by conditions.

Considering most minions/summoned pets are already susceptible to the aforementioned changes we feel that this is a fair way to bring turrets more inline with the rest of the game. These changes should only slightly affect the viability of turrets in PvE/WvW (low creature crit chance/condition application), while providing for more counterplay against turrets.

We’d love to hear your feedback on these changes. Feel free to respond below with your comments.

-Grouch

+1

Only thing I’d add is that if this is play tested Devs look into the health pool or turrets. Allowing turrets to be critically hit will probably already put them in a good place but it’s just something to consider.