Guild Wars 2

Dagger is pretty inferior to pistol OH except in s/d and p/d – p/d is a joke build (stealth spam -we’re trying to give more stealth counterplay right?), and s/d doesn’t really utilize the dagger 4/5 skills -basically just spam 3 and occasionally 2 for escapes (sometimes dagger 5 is used for escapes).
So why not rework the dagger offhand to open up more viable builds? The first thing to keep in mind when balancing for thief is that pretty much every weapon belongs to 2-3 different weapon set combinations. Because of this, we have to be very careful with which abilities we give to an offhand set without making another set extremely OP -eg; we give dagger 4 a 1 second stun to push up d/d wep set, but now s/d is even more op. The answer to this dilemma is by giving the skills effects that will only improve the sets that need improving, and not affect the sets that don’t need improving/nerfing. We do that by giving dagger 4/5 skills that improve their viability in p/d and d/d condition builds.

My proposal:

New Dagger 4: costs 3 initiative, .5 sec cast time, 900 range
“Kerosene Dagger”: Throw a flaming dagger at your target, apply (low damage) burning, after 5 seconds the blade explodes doing a small amount of damage and applying aoe (higher damage) burning to 5 enemies within 300 range of target.

New Dagger 5: costs 6 initiative, 0 cast time, 600 range
“Criminal Bond”: Chain yourself to your target for 4 seconds, if the distance between you both exceeds 600, the chain breaks and applies cripple to your target and regeneration to yourself, target suffers from poison as long as the chain stays intact.
“Break Chains”: Break the chain and enter stealth, your target gains swiftness.

This would give both p/d and d/d some pretty interesting options for condi builds, without making s/d any more or less effective. “Criminal Bond” synergizes well with Shadow Strike on p/d, and also well with Death Blossom and Heart Seeker, it would also still give s/d players access to stealth for interupts and escapes in a way that give their oponents some options for counterplay -unlike cloak & dag.
“Kerosene Dagger” is a way to sneak burning into the condi thief’s kit, while also including options for counterplay against it.

I hate it. I use #4 a lot in the S/D kit, and I know other thieves who use #5 a lot in the S/D kit.

Excalibur.9748:

I hate it. I use #4 a lot in the S/D kit, and I know other thieves who use #5 a lot in the S/D kit.

It’s not about using it or not, it’s about efficiency.

If you use Dancing Dagger in a situation that isn’t slowing people down while backapping, you’re wasting initiative.

C&D is suboptimal at best, melee range, 6 ini: one of the few skills in the set requiring skill, yet not used due to being suboptimal ( tactical strike being so bad doesn’t help, either).

Yet OP suggested changes will just help condi specs, terribad at best.

Anyway, it will be moved to thief forum so who cares

Mrbig.8019:

Excalibur.9748:

I hate it. I use #4 a lot in the S/D kit, and I know other thieves who use #5 a lot in the S/D kit.

It’s not about using it or not, it’s about efficiency.

If you use Dancing Dagger in a situation that isn’t slowing people down while backapping, you’re wasting initiative.

C&D is suboptimal at best, melee range, 6 ini: one of the few skills in the set requiring skill, yet not used due to being suboptimal ( tactical strike being so bad doesn’t help, either).

Yet OP suggested changes will just help condi specs, terribad at best.

Anyway, it will be moved to thief forum so who cares

It wouldn’t take a lot to make dancing dagger something worth using….TC basically just deleted it in exchange for burning!! (even though there’s no reason it can’t cripple and burn at same time)

I don’t like it.

You are not going to be happy with the game if you start encouraging D/D death blossom spam to be more credible. Believe that.

Zodian.6597:

New Dagger 4: costs 3 initiative, .5 sec cast time, 900 range
“Dragon Dagger”: Throw a flaming dagger at your target, apply (low damage) burning, after 5 seconds the blade explodes doing a small amount of damage and applying aoe (higher damage) burning to 5 enemies within 300 range of target.

What the hell is this? Dragon Dagger? Burning? Why? This isn’t Elementalist, and D/D is everything but a ranged DOT set.
Dancing Dagger needs it’s activation time and projectile speed buffed. That’s it.

New Dagger 5: costs 6 initiative, 0 cast time, 600 range
“Criminal Bond”: Chain yourself to your target for 4 seconds, if the distance between you both exceeds 600, the chain breaks and applies cripple to your target and regeneration to yourself, target suffers from poison as long as the chain stays intact.
“Break Chains”: Break the chain and enter stealth, your target gains swiftness.

More workable. Though not as a replacement for CnD. Suggesting removing CnD is crazy talk.
I always loved Augury of Death/Scorpion Wire on Caster-Assassin in GW classic. Your suggestion is somewhat similar to it. Would make a nice utility skill or elite.

Jamais vu.5284:

I always loved Augury of Death/Scorpion Wire on Caster-Assassin in GW classic. Your suggestion is somewhat similar to it. Would make a nice utility skill or elite.

Wish we had a focus…

Jamais vu.5284:

New Dagger 4: costs 3 initiative, .5 sec cast time, 900 range
“Dragon Dagger”: Throw a flaming dagger at your target, apply (low damage) burning, after 5 seconds the blade explodes doing a small amount of damage and applying aoe (higher damage) burning to 5 enemies within 300 range of target.

What the hell is this? Dragon Dagger? Burning? Why? This isn’t Elementalist, and D/D is everything but a ranged DOT set.
Dancing Dagger needs it’s activation time and projectile speed buffed. That’s it.

p/d is a ranged set though. Have to keep in mind other sets like i said in 1st half of the post, p/d wouldn’t play very fluid if their ranged 4 was turned into mele. new 5 skill would help offset the need for dancing dagger in the s/d kit, while the new 4 skill would give thieves viable options for condi builds without affecting s/d too much. no one uses d/d for burst anymore (it’s mathematically inferior to d/p), it would be cool to rework dagger offhand to promote more build diversity -even if it IS condition builds (I hate condi meta as much as the next guy, but I have faith condis as a whole will be tuned down soon). And I’ll change the name to something more fitting just for you.

Excalibur.9748:

Mrbig.8019:

Excalibur.9748:

I hate it. I use #4 a lot in the S/D kit, and I know other thieves who use #5 a lot in the S/D kit.

It’s not about using it or not, it’s about efficiency.

If you use Dancing Dagger in a situation that isn’t slowing people down while backapping, you’re wasting initiative.

C&D is suboptimal at best, melee range, 6 ini: one of the few skills in the set requiring skill, yet not used due to being suboptimal ( tactical strike being so bad doesn’t help, either).

Yet OP suggested changes will just help condi specs, terribad at best.

Anyway, it will be moved to thief forum so who cares

It wouldn’t take a lot to make dancing dagger something worth using….TC basically just deleted it in exchange for burning!! (even though there’s no reason it can’t cripple and burn at same time)

I don’t like it.

reason it can’t cripple and burn is because then p/d would be too strong @ kiting. you might get away with a cripple and burn on explosion, but then it’s overkill for d/d condi set -which is countered by kite.

ensoriki.5789:

You are not going to be happy with the game if you start encouraging D/D death blossom spam to be more credible. Believe that.

lol any competent player with a ranged weapon counters db spam, new #5 and ranged #4 dps would give the build a fighting chance at least. DB spam is like beta meta lol.

Zodian.6597:

ensoriki.5789:

You are not going to be happy with the game if you start encouraging D/D death blossom spam to be more credible. Believe that.

lol any competent player with a ranged weapon counters db spam, new #5 and ranged #4 dps would give the build a fighting chance at least. DB spam is like beta meta lol.

You don’t even need a ranged weapon. I think the playstyle itself is dumb as kitten however and would not encourage it. They shouldn’t of even put the bleeding on death blossom god kitten sacrilege. Feels like a half-kitten way of keeping the Twisting Fangs auto attack.

Mrbig.8019:

Excalibur.9748:

I hate it. I use #4 a lot in the S/D kit, and I know other thieves who use #5 a lot in the S/D kit.

It’s not about using it or not, it’s about efficiency.

If you use Dancing Dagger in a situation that isn’t slowing people down while backapping, you’re wasting initiative.

C&D is suboptimal at best, melee range, 6 ini: one of the few skills in the set requiring skill, yet not used due to being suboptimal ( tactical strike being so bad doesn’t help, either).

Yet OP suggested changes will just help condi specs, terribad at best.

Anyway, it will be moved to thief forum so who cares

Thief doesn’t even have condi specs right now, they’re a joke. Wouldn’t you rather at least the option of having them? You can’t create more than 2 viable burst damage specs for thief because of how its weapon sets are designed. s/d and d/p are meta, if we buff skills of any other weapon set then it’s just gonna nerf or buff the hell out of s/d or d/p. I feel like dagger 4 and 5 (4 more so than 5) are essentially just unused skills at this point because of the way the class is designed to roll off initiative in the first place. Remaking the skills will improve build diversity of thief in a way that traits will probably never be able to.

ensoriki.5789:

Zodian.6597:

ensoriki.5789:

You are not going to be happy with the game if you start encouraging D/D death blossom spam to be more credible. Believe that.

lol any competent player with a ranged weapon counters db spam, new #5 and ranged #4 dps would give the build a fighting chance at least. DB spam is like beta meta lol.

You don’t even need a ranged weapon. I think the playstyle itself is dumb as kitten however and would not encourage it.

I don’t much care for the playstyle either, but it’s a build and the end goal should be improving build diversity no?

Zodian.6597:

ensoriki.5789:

Zodian.6597:

ensoriki.5789:

You are not going to be happy with the game if you start encouraging D/D death blossom spam to be more credible. Believe that.

lol any competent player with a ranged weapon counters db spam, new #5 and ranged #4 dps would give the build a fighting chance at least. DB spam is like beta meta lol.

You don’t even need a ranged weapon. I think the playstyle itself is dumb as kitten however and would not encourage it.

I don’t much care for the playstyle either, but it’s a build and the end goal should be improving build diversity no?

More viable builds is a good thing in a general sense
Something like condition D/D? Unless they’re making a more interesting system nope. That thing can stay permanently buried behind its Power counterpart.
Condi thieves can run to SB and P/D.

ensoriki.5789:

More viable builds is a good thing in a general sense
Something like D/D condi? Nope.

what about p/d? I think that might be the stronger kit in the end anyway (at skill cap), especially if body shot (pistol 2) was reworked too.
Infact, what if body shot was changed to a mobility skill so every thief and their mom didn’t take sb? that might be OP though since p/d kite is already pretty strong.

Zodian.6597:

ensoriki.5789:

More viable builds is a good thing in a general sense
Something like D/D condi? Nope.

what about p/d? I think that might be the stronger kit in the end anyway (at skill cap), especially if body shot (pistol 2) was reworked too.

P/D supporting conditions is fine it’s put together better for that purpose and style even if it falls short at the moment.
It literally feels to me like they forgot that they ditched Twisting Fangs in alpha and kept the bleed on death blossom for the hell of it.
You’ve got a power based stealth attack with no utility attached to it (unlike Surprise shot/tactical) it’s completely power based. Your auto attack damage wise is comparable to the Sword power based damage excusing a poison which tips it over. Again mostly about power.
Heartseeker? Power. Dancing dagger? Power. Cloak and dagger? Power and sets up your power stealth attack.
Why the kitten is death blossom applying bleeds? So we can say it ignores armor? It wont do so on a significant value unless you get condi power in, which doesn’t go with the rest of the set especially given that the utility of D/D really doesn’t support it either. Just so someone can go invest in condi power and spam 3? Spec carrion to try and get the best of both worlds by taking condi power for one skill? kittening ridiculous.

ensoriki.5789:

P/D supporting conditions is fine it’s put together better for that purpose and style even if it falls short at the moment.
It literally feels to me like they forgot that they ditched Twisting Fangs in alpha and kept the bleed on death blossom for the hell of it.
You’ve got a power based stealth attack with no utility attached to it (unlike Surprise shot/tactical) it’s completely power based. Your auto attack damage wise is comparable to the Sword power based damage excusing a poison which tips it over. Again mostly about power.
Heartseeker? Power. Dancing dagger? Power. Cloak and dagger? Power and sets up your power stealth attack.
Why the kitten is death blossom applying bleeds? So we can say it ignores armor? It wont do so on a significant value unless you get condi power in, which doesn’t go with the rest of the set especially given that the utility of D/D really doesn’t support it either. Just so someone can go invest in condi power and spam 3? Spec carrion to try and get the best of both worlds by taking condi power for one skill? kittening ridiculous.

tbh, thief design is kinda lackluster as a whole. Initiative without any combo system really just promotes spamming 1 skill and occasionally using 1 of the other 4 situationally -not to even mention weapon swapping in combat is pretty much nonexistent because of that, so everyone can just take the set with the most mobility (sb) in every build just to spam THAT mobility skill to get between points. They probably designed DB with the intent of having a defensive skill that wouldn’t do OP direct damage (it probly did in alpha, then ppl abused it and it got nerfed) – or they were just looking for a lazy counter to heavy armor classes like you said, idk. What they got was basically a skill that was too expensive (init wise) to even use in power builds, and a skill that was too OP in condi builds to lower the init cost of. I think the only future d/d will have in spvp is as a condi spec, unless pistol 5 gets reworked or bleeds are removed from DB and init cost is lowered.

Definitely not a fan. Dagger offhand is not just for condi specs. I just want the damage increased on both dancing dagger and clock and dagger. That’s all it needs.

For you P/D users though, I would like to see burning added to pistol #2.

style.6173:

Definitely not a fan. Dagger offhand is not just for condi specs. I just want the damage increased on both dancing dagger and clock and dagger. That’s all it needs.

For you P/D users though, I would like to see burning added to pistol #2.

don’t think damage has anything to do with it, pistol 4 and 5 are just so much stronger than dagger 4 and 5 for power builds -for defensive/control reasons mainly. Pistol 5 = hard counter to like all mele, pistol 4 = on demand interrupt. and yeah agreed on pistol 2

D/D was favored by many over D/P when the off hand dagger was a heavy hitter.

I’d like to see Db go lifesteal based or something along that line of thought and then just improve the velocity of dancing dagger before anything else

ensoriki.5789:

D/D was favored by many over D/P when the off hand dagger was a heavy hitter.

I’d like to see Db go lifesteal based or something along that line of thought and then just improve the velocity of dancing dagger before anything else

That’s fair, I’d actually really like to see something like that, i just hate how so many of the skills in gw2 pvp have like 0 counterplay opportunities you know? I can’t believe this thread has stayed in the spvp subforum this long anyways haha. I meant to post it to the thief class forum but was in a hurry to get off.