Guild Wars 2

Its annoying, but I’d hardly call it op. Thief has to give up their condi cleanse in order to take PI anyway. The only change i’d really make to it would be so it wont proc off interrupting auto attacks. Which is an easy enough change to do anyway since mes has a similar trait that they changed long ago so it wont trigger from autos.

apharma.3741:

Ross Biddle.2367:

apharma.3741:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Wargameur.6950:

• Getting a good interrupt with a thief means reading the animations, learning the other class mechanics. Shouldn’t that work be rewarded ? Punishing a necro spamming AA on scepter is a side effect. d/p thief is more or less not allowed to AA in a team fight because of AOE spam and squishiness. Is it a bad design to have an inverse mirror situation for other classes ?

This thread continually takes me back. These arguments. This one for example is the exact same one that came up because of how thieves SPAM their AA for massive damage an no ill effect. The problem? Power Block on Mesmer was being used to counter that with interrupt damage and putting the spam on CD. Tsk Tsk.

Of course we all know that interrupts are largely useless against thieves unlike everybody else. Why? So much insta cast, insta teleport, engaging from LoS, not to mention stealth etc etc.

It’s hilarious to see thieves now trying to defend their kitten against people telling them this exact same thing is out of hand.

Thieves, forever broken as kitten.

FYI: Headshot is the least of a thieves interrupt capabilities. Arguably it’s one of their worst XD

I believe it was the cool down increase part that was removed from auto attacks and it wasn’t just thieves that were affected or complained. I’m pretty sure you can proc the damage part of power block and weakness from autos. Having said that power blocks damage needs power, precision and ferocity while I’d only requires power to do similar damage.

True, the damage is still there. But the arguments in this thread are the same. The true difference is (wait for it, it’s the same kitten since release!) Thief initiative system, skill spam, Steal feature overloading, their unique mechanics! (insta cast, teleport, mobility, bla bla bla)

Yeah I get what you’re saying, there just isn’t that much of a cost to using headshot, it costs 4s of a thieves time. When a mesmer uses their interrupts to get damage there is a safe period afterwards where they have no way to proc the trait or it’s tied to something with its own inbuilt counterplay, casting a mantra.

This just isn’t really there to the same extent on thief as the cost is so low compared to 25-40s cool downs that a mesmer has on these skills or they’re on weapon sets that lower a mesmers in combat abilities. Yes I know they technically have sword offhand but I can count on a fingerless hand the number of times I’ve seen that used or been effective in any way. The thief has to give up what? The choice of condi cleanse on dodge and that’s it, good thing they’re immune to all soft CC then!

When A thief uses ANY skill that costs Initiative he is compromising all of the other skills that cost initiative. That is unlike a skill going on cooldown which only closes down that skill. If a Thief uses 3 headshots and only triggers one interrupt he has done some 3k in damage for the cost of 12 INI.

He now can not use black powder and HS to stealth> He has no more ini to do an unload.

That thief is now expending dodges or breaking off combat so as to get his ini back . THAT is the cost of spamming a skill.

This ini system has another cost that is not as spplicable to other classes and that in the selection of utility traits. There a reason a theif can not load up on venoms, just as example or is hard pressed to load up purely on offensive utilities and that in part that same ini system. Due to the fact that expending INI to attack indirectly affects all other INI type skills by lowering the ability to use them a thief will need to ensure he has utilities that are purely defensive.

On My warrior because I have a 3 second block just off shield as xample as a last ditch defense , i am not as needful of a defensive utility on 6-10. The theif that is using ini off to spam headshots had better have these in his utilities or he will be dead quick.

Yes the INI system gives the advanatge of using a skill multiple times in a row , but that comes with a cost that no other profession with cooldown pays.

babazhook.6805:

Yes the INI system gives the advanatge of using a skill multiple times in a row , but that comes with a cost that no other profession with cooldown pays.

Some might even argue, it’s no cost at all!

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

Ross Biddle.2367:

apharma.3741:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Wargameur.6950:

• Getting a good interrupt with a thief means reading the animations, learning the other class mechanics. Shouldn’t that work be rewarded ? Punishing a necro spamming AA on scepter is a side effect. d/p thief is more or less not allowed to AA in a team fight because of AOE spam and squishiness. Is it a bad design to have an inverse mirror situation for other classes ?

This thread continually takes me back. These arguments. This one for example is the exact same one that came up because of how thieves SPAM their AA for massive damage an no ill effect. The problem? Power Block on Mesmer was being used to counter that with interrupt damage and putting the spam on CD. Tsk Tsk.

Of course we all know that interrupts are largely useless against thieves unlike everybody else. Why? So much insta cast, insta teleport, engaging from LoS, not to mention stealth etc etc.

It’s hilarious to see thieves now trying to defend their kitten against people telling them this exact same thing is out of hand.

Thieves, forever broken as kitten.

FYI: Headshot is the least of a thieves interrupt capabilities. Arguably it’s one of their worst XD

I believe it was the cool down increase part that was removed from auto attacks and it wasn’t just thieves that were affected or complained. I’m pretty sure you can proc the damage part of power block and weakness from autos. Having said that power blocks damage needs power, precision and ferocity while I’d only requires power to do similar damage.

True, the damage is still there. But the arguments in this thread are the same. The true difference is (wait for it, it’s the same kitten since release!) Thief initiative system, skill spam, Steal feature overloading, their unique mechanics! (insta cast, teleport, mobility, bla bla bla)

Yeah I get what you’re saying, there just isn’t that much of a cost to using headshot, it costs 4s of a thieves time. When a mesmer uses their interrupts to get damage there is a safe period afterwards where they have no way to proc the trait or it’s tied to something with its own inbuilt counterplay, casting a mantra.

This just isn’t really there to the same extent on thief as the cost is so low compared to 25-40s cool downs that a mesmer has on these skills or they’re on weapon sets that lower a mesmers in combat abilities. Yes I know they technically have sword offhand but I can count on a fingerless hand the number of times I’ve seen that used or been effective in any way. The thief has to give up what? The choice of condi cleanse on dodge and that’s it, good thing they’re immune to all soft CC then!

When A thief uses ANY skill that costs Initiative he is compromising all of the other skills that cost initiative. That is unlike a skill going on cooldown which only closes down that skill. If a Thief uses 3 headshots and only triggers one interrupt he has done some 3k in damage for the cost of 12 INI.

He now can not use black powder and HS to stealth> He has no more ini to do an unload.

That thief is now expending dodges or breaking off combat so as to get his ini back . THAT is the cost of spamming a skill.

This ini system has another cost that is not as spplicable to other classes and that in the selection of utility traits. There a reason a theif can not load up on venoms, just as example or is hard pressed to load up purely on offensive utilities and that in part that same ini system. Due to the fact that expending INI to attack indirectly affects all other INI type skills by lowering the ability to use them a thief will need to ensure he has utilities that are purely defensive.

On My warrior because I have a 3 second block just off shield as xample as a last ditch defense , i am not as needful of a defensive utility on 6-10. The theif that is using ini off to spam headshots had better have these in his utilities or he will be dead quick.

Yes the INI system gives the advanatge of using a skill multiple times in a row , but that comes with a cost that no other profession with cooldown pays.

That’s the difference between being good at resource management and being bad at it though. Any person can blow all their CCs and get nothing out of it, especially mesmer and then what? To other classes they usually had 1 maybe 2 defences left as their offense takes the place of defence but a thief only has to wait for ini to regen, good thing they have 3 dodges and some extremely low cool downs on skills too.

One of the best ways thief does damage is with auto attack too so the only time they have to use other skills is to either disengage or chase leaving plenty of room to use headshot to interrupt any skill with a cast.

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

Ross Biddle.2367:

babazhook.6805:

Yes the INI system gives the advanatge of using a skill multiple times in a row , but that comes with a cost that no other profession with cooldown pays.

Some might even argue, it’s no cost at all!

They would be wrong. There a reason so many take the trickery line and the major one is access to the extra 3 ini off preparedness and ini gained from Klepto.

Without that INI the thief is crippled with what he can do in combat because using up INI comes at a high costs to other skills.

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm interesting except that Initiative used does count as a sort of CD it’s not like Thieves have unlimited Initiative, they blow their Initiative guess what they have to wait for more.

Ini management isn’t rocket science.

And yeah " setup"burst right.. when majority of Warrior Interrupts do a significant amount of damage sans pommel bash and are all on relatively low CDs.

Skullgrinder and Headbutt are the only CC that deal notable damage. Nobody ever died from Shield Bash damage.
Skullgrinder is a issue to itself but that is not the purview of this thread.

What is a Cc used for besides interrupting or locking down players? Oh yeah that’s exactly what they used for funny isn’kitten

Warriors use CC to hold the target in place for their burst. Thieves use CC to interrupt. The usage is completely different.

Also warriors fulfill a completely and utterly different role than thieves. Something you and Cynz like to ignore in your effort to point the thread away.

I assure you wild blow does significant damage and can hit generate interrupts off multiple players for more. This can be put on a 16 second cooldown.

Stomp can also affect mulitple players inflicting significant damge up front as can kick. Again because they can affect multiple players and can crit you are going to do significant damage up front rather then counting on an interrupt.

The ability to generate damage even if no interrupt generated to the amount these skills can is a significant advantage in that there no real loss if you do not manage to interrupt a skill.

Unlike the thief the warrior has interrupts that can affect multiple players at once both doing that upfront damage , generating an interrupt and proccing other effects (Such as a blast, generating stability . removing conditions )

Your suggesting that warriors have “different roles” is moot when it comes to discussing whether a trait OP. Using 4 ini to generate an interrupt that leads to ~3k in damage is either OP or it is not.

The skill is fine.

This thread has gone on too long. OP (or someone else) needs to post a video showing how broken this skill is, or it’s all theoretical bullkitten. Arguing about what a thief can potentially do is pointless. People who play thief know what it takes to win with thief, and it’s not as easy as the “nerf PI” crowd would have you believe.

Video or end thread.

Moonsinn.5382:

This thread has gone on too long. OP (or someone else) needs to post a video showing how broken this skill is, or it’s all theoretical bullkitten. Arguing about what a thief can potentially do is pointless. People who play thief know what it takes to win with thief, and it’s not as easy as the “nerf PI” crowd would have you believe.

Video or end thread.

Math is witchcraft. YouTube is science.

/s

Crinn.7864:

Moonsinn.5382:

This thread has gone on too long. OP (or someone else) needs to post a video showing how broken this skill is, or it’s all theoretical bullkitten. Arguing about what a thief can potentially do is pointless. People who play thief know what it takes to win with thief, and it’s not as easy as the “nerf PI” crowd would have you believe.

Video or end thread.

Math is witchcraft. YouTube is science.

/s

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

No need top be so rude and defensive with your lol :/ calm youself down!

All I proved was the claimes that you tried to refute that on average PI does ~4k..which is does. Above or below 90% doesnt matter.

Not sure what else you need. One person said they took 12k from 3 hits, you said, "post pics of death log, someone actually posted pics of a death log where they took a 2 hits for 10k, you said " well traits and conditions", then i put some math which averages around ~4k but i forget to put in the rune, make a post saying i missed it and you go , “lol 90% hp, other classes do things”.

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

No need top be so rude and defensive with your lol :/ calm youself down!

All I proved was the claimes that you tried to refute that on average PI does ~4k..which is does. Above or below 90% doesnt matter.

Not sure what else you need. One person said they took 12k from 3 hits, you said, "post pics of death log, someone actually posted pics of a death log where they took a 2 hits for 10k, you said " well traits and conditions", then i put some math which averages around ~4k but i forget to put in the rune, make a post saying i missed it and you go , “lol 90% hp, other classes do things”.

That person also implies that PI should be nerfed because it hit him for 5k…. he forgot to mention that it was thanks to external buffs…. should we nerf the class because he got help from 2 other players and invests into damage?….

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

No need top be so rude and defensive with your lol :/ calm youself down!

All I proved was the claimes that you tried to refute that on average PI does ~4k..which is does. Above or below 90% doesnt matter.

Not sure what else you need. One person said they took 12k from 3 hits, you said, "post pics of death log, someone actually posted pics of a death log where they took a 2 hits for 10k, you said " well traits and conditions", then i put some math which averages around ~4k but i forget to put in the rune, make a post saying i missed it and you go , “lol 90% hp, other classes do things”.

That person also implies that PI should be nerfed because it hit him for 5k…. he forgot to mention that it was thanks to external buffs…. should we nerf the class because he got help from 2 other players and invests into damage?….

- looks at all the posts/threads saying certain things on necro cant be fixed since the class is “OP” when supported by bunker classes like ele/egi/ranger. -

Also it shows that he fought 3 people ( not sure if Mesmer did any damage or just the stomp ), ate almost a full over load fire, more than 3 and a bit auto attack chains from dagger yet the thing that did the most damage even though it cannot crit was being interrupted twice…

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

No need top be so rude and defensive with your lol :/ calm youself down!

All I proved was the claimes that you tried to refute that on average PI does ~4k..which is does. Above or below 90% doesnt matter.

Not sure what else you need. One person said they took 12k from 3 hits, you said, "post pics of death log, someone actually posted pics of a death log where they took a 2 hits for 10k, you said " well traits and conditions", then i put some math which averages around ~4k but i forget to put in the rune, make a post saying i missed it and you go , “lol 90% hp, other classes do things”.

That person also implies that PI should be nerfed because it hit him for 5k…. he forgot to mention that it was thanks to external buffs…. should we nerf the class because he got help from 2 other players and invests into damage?….

- looks at all the posts/threads saying certain things on necro cant be fixed since the class is “OP” when supported by bunker classes like ele/egi/ranger. -

Also it shows that he fought 3 people ( not sure if Mesmer did any damage or just the stomp ), ate almost a full over load fire, more than 3 and a bit auto attack chains from dagger yet the thing that did the most damage even though it cannot crit was being interrupted twice…

Thief is not built around playing with mes and ele. In fact, thief is not built around playing with team where necro is designed for big fights…. not to mention we would probably see way bigger numbers from necro if he got same support.

Fire overload gives might in case you didn’t know, mes has high access to vulnerability…

We also don’t know whether he ate that dmg in downed state….

If you think PI is so OP, why don’t you go make a thief and run around spamming HS, lets see how far it will get you.

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

Oh look, a thief main desperately trying to deflect again. This is a thread about thieves, not about DH and their traps

Yes, the thread is about thieves. But considering you’re arguing thief (or part of it’s kit) is OP, you need to consider and argue the balance across all classes and the skills each have. Or were you saying thief is OP compared to llamas?

Otherwise, what you’re saying is you’re fine being beaten by X class with Y skill, but not by a thief. In which case the argument is over because you have no point.

Cynz.9437:

Thief is not built around playing with mes and ele. In fact, thief is not built around playing with team where necro is designed for big fights…. not to mention we would probably see way bigger numbers from necro if he got same support.

Fire overload gives might in case you didn’t know, mes has high access to vulnerability…

We also don’t know whether he ate that dmg in downed state….

If you think PI is so OP, why don’t you go make a thief and run around spamming HS, lets see how far it will get you.

I know what fire overload does :/ Mesmers also tend to generate vuln through damage/being active more than anything else yet we dont know if he took any from the mesmer since it doesnt show in the combat log. Its also unlikely the mesmer came in, interrupted and shattered enough to generate a lot of vuln while doing no damage.

Also even if they interrupted the downed skills being interrupted twice doing more collective damage than it took to down him is still huge.

Forget the number itself since you are too focused on it and look at the fact that this picture shows, regardless of how much you hate it, that he got interrupted twice and it did more damage in those two procs of PI than anything else he took that fight. If he wasnt “supported” those two procs would have still done more than anything else since its all relative. When you factor in that everything else he got hit with could crit but this couldn’t and it is still top …

Never said it was OP im just pointing out what the picture actually shows.

But hey ¯\(?)/¯

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

Oh look, a thief main desperately trying to deflect again. This is a thread about thieves, not about DH and their traps

Yes, the thread is about thieves. But considering you’re arguing thief (or part of it’s kit) is OP, you need to consider and argue the balance across all classes and the skills each have. Or were you saying thief is OP compared to llamas?

Otherwise, what you’re saying is you’re fine being beaten by X class with Y skill, but not by a thief. In which case the argument is over because you have no point.

I want to see every elite spec nerfed. But in a thread about thieves and IP/PI, to continuously bring up other classes with the “argument”

“Oh but its fine because other classes are even more OP”

does nothing more than try to deflect the conversation. Yes, every class has their problems right now. That doesn’t mean that none of them need to be addressed.

Just imagine if the thief used heartseeker to finish him off instead. Oh how the nerf hate would fly. Surprise! Thieves do big damage! Oh wait, we had the “spam 2” complaints a couple years ago.

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + +spammable +ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply stupid…

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

When a thief player cannot understand that ‘’interupt spell’’ is created a in mind that is used to INTERUPT an attack and not chunk out 1/5 of your Hp with 0% mechanical skill needed and extremly small counter play …..then that why each game have a powercreep
….because the population thinks that that is ok and they should buff any other class …
(2013)

Which do you think is there an abudance ?
Theif initiative or long cds of stability/Projectile Hate for most classes ?

Ryuk.6840:

When a thief player cannot understand that ‘’interupt spell’’ is created a in mind that is used to INTERUPT an attack and not chunk out 1/5 of your Hp with 0% mechanical skill needed and extremly small counter play …..then that why each game have a powercreep
….because the population thinks that that is ok and they should buff any other class …
(2013)

Which do you think is there an abudance ?
Theif initiative or long cds of stability/Projectile Hate for most classes ?

You literally didn’t answer the question, you said Thief Headshot punishes players for Moving, exactly how does the Thief Do that when the Meta Build everyone is whining about doesn’t inflict Torment so no punishment on moving? You are literally just making up excuses by trying to add everything and the kitchen sink to try and make an argument and it is showing you don’t really know what you are talking about.

Really small counter play? Every Meta build Sans, Thief, Necro and Revenant have access to a plethora of either Projectile Hate, Stability, Blocks, and Invulns, some have access to all of those, while others have A lot of access to some of those, oh yeah let’s not forget that quie a few Meta builds have Cc reflect as passives. So again there is absolutely no lack of Counter play to Headshot and PI, since that is what this thread is about.

So until they start needing every thing across the board PI is fine in this current environment, people just have to take responsibility and use the over abundance of defenses against it.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

Exactly. See, this guy gets it. While you have to wait around some circumstances to use Headshot, what’s really OP is the unblockable (bas venom), insta cast, non-LoS, teleport, boon stripping Steal. Of course Steal and Headshot are hardly the only options a thief has.

XD

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

Exactly. See, this guy gets it. While you have to wait around some circumstances to use Headshot, what’s really OP is the unblockable (bas venom), insta cast, non-LoS, teleport, boon stripping Steal. Of course Steal and Headshot are hardly the only options a thief has.

XD

Complaining now about a 40 sec single target 1 charge Cc that does no damage by itself, that the charge gets wasted if someone uses a Dodge, or if Thief gets blinded(which there is an abundance of) or if it gets obstructed, which FYI happens a lot to Steal even on perfectly flat ground, so no damage and no cc happen? Bahahaha, you guys are trying hard to fish now.

You want to see the epitome of Unblockable CC? Look at Warrior 6 seconds all attacks are unblockable, and they can keep the Cc up while all their Cc skills except one does more damage than PI w/Headshot.

Nice try though will wait for more excuses.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

When a thief player cannot understand that ‘’interupt spell’’ is created a in mind that is used to INTERUPT an attack and not chunk out 1/5 of your Hp with 0% mechanical skill needed and extremly small counter play …..then that why each game have a powercreep
….because the population thinks that that is ok and they should buff any other class …
(2013)

Which do you think is there an abudance ?
Theif initiative or long cds of stability/Projectile Hate for most classes ?

You literally didn’t answer the question, you said Thief Headshot punishes players for Moving, exactly how does the Thief Do that when the Meta Build everyone is whining about doesn’t inflict Torment so no punishment on moving? You are literally just making up excuses by trying to add everything and the kitchen sink to try and make an argument and it is showing you don’t really know what you are talking about.

Really small counter play? Every Meta build Sans, Thief, Necro and Revenant have access to a plethora of either Projectile Hate, Stability, Blocks, and Invulns, some have access to all of those, while others have A lot of access to some of those, oh yeah let’s not forget that quie a few Meta builds have Cc reflect as passives. So again there is absolutely no lack of Counter play to Headshot and PI, since that is what this thread is about.

So until they start needing every thing across the board PI is fine in this current environment, people just have to take responsibility and use the over abundance of defenses against it.

Again you are not answering a my question about who has more abudance of unfair gameplay …while you are trying try to use big paragraphs or big words to show that you know somethng ….
A Theifs that can spamm Headshot for 5-6k (sigil of fire/air/Rune of Vampirism ) +daze you from 900 yards with little of visible animeation or reaction counter time
Or other classes ?

Ryuk.6840:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

When a thief player cannot understand that ‘’interupt spell’’ is created a in mind that is used to INTERUPT an attack and not chunk out 1/5 of your Hp with 0% mechanical skill needed and extremly small counter play …..then that why each game have a powercreep
….because the population thinks that that is ok and they should buff any other class …
(2013)

Which do you think is there an abudance ?
Theif initiative or long cds of stability/Projectile Hate for most classes ?

You literally didn’t answer the question, you said Thief Headshot punishes players for Moving, exactly how does the Thief Do that when the Meta Build everyone is whining about doesn’t inflict Torment so no punishment on moving? You are literally just making up excuses by trying to add everything and the kitchen sink to try and make an argument and it is showing you don’t really know what you are talking about.

Really small counter play? Every Meta build Sans, Thief, Necro and Revenant have access to a plethora of either Projectile Hate, Stability, Blocks, and Invulns, some have access to all of those, while others have A lot of access to some of those, oh yeah let’s not forget that quie a few Meta builds have Cc reflect as passives. So again there is absolutely no lack of Counter play to Headshot and PI, since that is what this thread is about.

So until they start needing every thing across the board PI is fine in this current environment, people just have to take responsibility and use the over abundance of defenses against it.

Again you are not answering a my question about who has more abudance of unfair gameplay …while you are trying try to use big paragraphs or big words to show that you know somethng ….
A Theifs that can spamm Headshot for 5-6k (sigil of fire/air/Rune of Vampirism ) +daze you for even using auto attack or snizzing from 900 yards with little of visible animetion
Or other classes ?

Oh so runes/sigils and co. are exclusive part of headshot now and reason why PI should be nerf lol. Ok….

Please go make a thief, go in ranked and spam headshot, don’t forget to record it so we can all see all those amazing 5k procs. Do it.

Ryuk.6840:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

When a thief player cannot understand that ‘’interupt spell’’ is created a in mind that is used to INTERUPT an attack and not chunk out 1/5 of your Hp with 0% mechanical skill needed and extremly small counter play …..then that why each game have a powercreep
….because the population thinks that that is ok and they should buff any other class …
(2013)

Which do you think is there an abudance ?
Theif initiative or long cds of stability/Projectile Hate for most classes ?

You literally didn’t answer the question, you said Thief Headshot punishes players for Moving, exactly how does the Thief Do that when the Meta Build everyone is whining about doesn’t inflict Torment so no punishment on moving? You are literally just making up excuses by trying to add everything and the kitchen sink to try and make an argument and it is showing you don’t really know what you are talking about.

Really small counter play? Every Meta build Sans, Thief, Necro and Revenant have access to a plethora of either Projectile Hate, Stability, Blocks, and Invulns, some have access to all of those, while others have A lot of access to some of those, oh yeah let’s not forget that quie a few Meta builds have Cc reflect as passives. So again there is absolutely no lack of Counter play to Headshot and PI, since that is what this thread is about.

So until they start needing every thing across the board PI is fine in this current environment, people just have to take responsibility and use the over abundance of defenses against it.

Again you are not answering a my question about who has more abudance of unfair gameplay …while you are trying try to use big paragraphs or big words to show that you know somethng ….
A Theifs that can spamm Headshot for 5-6k (sigil of fire/air/Rune of Vampirism ) +daze you from 900 yards with little of visible animeation or reaction counter time
Or other classes ?

Again you are trying add all those other affects on to Headshot which there is absolutely no gauaeantee they will be there, and yeah because in all. Game mode where classes can Chain together Their defenses so when the last one ends that the first one is or is close to being off cd, or when there are 6 -25 second Cd reflects in game on top of having access to other reflects. All on top of the other skills that give counterplay to it, it’s almost like you don’t know the skillls all the Meta builds use that counter this on tiny trait/skill use.

And again you made a claim that it punishes movement tell me again how? You have failed to explain that.

Cynz.9437:

Oh so runes/sigils and co. are exclusive part of headshot now and reason why PI should be nerf lol. Ok….

Please go make a thief, go in ranked and spam headshot, don’t forget to record it so we can all see all those amazing 5k procs. Do it.

First of all i must be learn to become a hepocryte and blame the elite specs for ruing the game … and do 180 when the conversation is about my character

I am not the one little girl that is saying that ‘’3k for PI is justified in this powercreep era ’’ …. but when some1 is using elementary maths to show that PI can be combined with your beloved ‘’core spec’’ can have devastating results

Ryuk.6840:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again you are trying add all those other affects on to Headshot which there is absolutely no gauaeantee they will be there, and yeah because in all. Game mode where classes can Chain together Their defenses so when the last one ends that the first one is or is close to being off cd, or when there are 6 -25 second Cd reflects in game on top of having access to other reflects. All on top of the other skills that give counterplay to it, it’s almost like you don’t know the skillls all the Meta builds use that counter this on tiny trait/skill use.

And again you made a claim that it punishes movement tell me again how? You have failed to explain that.

There wont be a guarranted that wont be there ?
What does this mean ?
Can you drop the spamm 2222222 mentalitiy for a sec, so i can understand you ?
In the past Theifs didnt have a PI in their core specs …but they used they buffed Air/Fire sigils/Lifesteal to have the same numbers

PPl can chain together thie defenses ?
This is true …. but in the other hand can you point me a Prized-Tournament where Helseth cordinated so good with their team and made any oponents Ranged team comp worthless

Where is the spam 2222 mentality, or are you not able to make an argument without trying to insult someone? Are you that desperate, pretty sad really.

And guarantee means oh those sigils and tunes are Proc based and can be on CD because you know those sigils have CDs and can Proc on any attack, and really the Meta Thief build doesn’t use Rune of Vampirism like you previously stated, again it sounds like you don’t understand what all the Meta builds do have to combat any of this. Because they can counter the Thieves PI procs, quite effectively between their passive defense and active defenses.

Again when there are Meta Builds with 6 second Reflects on top of other Reflects and blocks available this isn’t an issue, and again like I said if they look at needing this they should tone down everything like all the ridiculous spammable defenses available or have you just been beat by so many Thieves on a face roll easily Class that you only want them nerfed?

Also still waiting for an answer to my previous question.

Again you are not answering my question about the hypothetical scenario where teams can stack defence upon defence to making any Ranged team worthless …
I want to see that comp domating in the next ESL and move from the Passive Defence Meta to ‘’Meele domination meta’’

Why would i want Thief to be oblitared … while in fact we are talking about 1 spell/trait .
1 simply spell can make a class so un-playable ?

I understand that ppl needed the first 2 seasons to use their brain cells and combine that PI with the rest of the kit and make the class from to zero to hero …. but i didnt know that was so neccecesery so much or that ppl just love huge numbers for limiting mechanical skills …

Edit: cy tommorow

Ryuk.6840:

Again you are not answering my question about the hypothetical scenario where teams can stack defence upon defence to making any Ranged team worthless …
I want to see that comp domating in the next ESL and move from the Passive Defence Meta to ‘’Meele domination meta’’

Why would i want Thief to be oblitared … while in fact we are talking about 1 spell/trait .
1 simply spell can make a class so un-playable ?

I understand that ppl needed the first 2 seasons to use their brain cells and combine that PI with the rest of the kit and make the class from to zero to hero …. but i didnt know that was so neccecesery so much or that ppl just love huge numbers for limiting mechanical skills …

There is no reason to answer your hypothetical question because your scenario is saying that Helseth’s team would be playing perfectly (which is next to impossible because people are only human, to the contrary of what Helseth may believe) and that Helseth’s Opponents are potatoes and not of equivalent skill as his team.

And again you haven’t answered my actual question that I asked before your ask ddeflecting hypothetical question, so one more time how is Meta Thief punishing movement with PI and Headshot? Because you are showing a huge lack of what Meta Builds have to answer skill like Headshot.

And you probably don’t know a lot of Ranged skill aren’t Projectiles in the Meta builds (as in used but ESL teams) right? Omg it can’t be true but it is, Necro Skills non projectile, Druid staff non Projectile, but Thief Headshot is. The more you know right?

These tears are so delicious!!!

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

Exactly. See, this guy gets it. While you have to wait around some circumstances to use Headshot, what’s really OP is the unblockable (bas venom), insta cast, non-LoS, teleport, boon stripping Steal. Of course Steal and Headshot are hardly the only options a thief has.

XD

Complaining now about a 40 sec single target 1 charge Cc that does no damage by itself, that the charge gets wasted if someone uses a Dodge, or if Thief gets blinded(which there is an abundance of) or if it gets obstructed, which FYI happens a lot to Steal even on perfectly flat ground, so no damage and no cc happen? Bahahaha, you guys are trying hard to fish now.

You want to see the epitome of Unblockable CC? Look at Warrior 6 seconds all attacks are unblockable, and they can keep the Cc up while all their Cc skills except one does more damage than PI w/Headshot.

Nice try though will wait for more excuses.

Rofl

How about a 20s steal that rips stability and applies a daze after. Insta cast, no animation, no need for LoS, teleports, etc etc.

See, what you obviously don’t understand is how different classes with different mechanics mean different thing when it comes to balance. So 6 seconds of unblockable attacks might seem crazy if, say, you’re a thief. But on a warrior at the cost of a utility spot, it’s not unreasonable at all. In fact the devs are so confident of it being on a warrior they actually give war the potential to double access (traited) on a 20s CD each. Because while it’s strong for a warrior to be able to pressure a target who wants to sit behind a block all of a sudden, it’s certainly not over powered considering- warrior. Nice strawman though, maybe try again.

To be clear: I’ve not targeted PI specifically at all. But I’m happy to continually point out how Thief ini system and their overall mechanics are, and have always been broken. If anything we should be thankful for the changes to the game that have left them in the somewhat troublesome (more a slight annoyance for them really than any actual problem) position they’re in. They’ve certainly always been able to take extreme advantage in this game, and still do.

Ini system is still there. Mechanics still haven’t changed.

Rev is the same.

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

Exactly. See, this guy gets it. While you have to wait around some circumstances to use Headshot, what’s really OP is the unblockable (bas venom), insta cast, non-LoS, teleport, boon stripping Steal. Of course Steal and Headshot are hardly the only options a thief has.

XD

Complaining now about a 40 sec single target 1 charge Cc that does no damage by itself, that the charge gets wasted if someone uses a Dodge, or if Thief gets blinded(which there is an abundance of) or if it gets obstructed, which FYI happens a lot to Steal even on perfectly flat ground, so no damage and no cc happen? Bahahaha, you guys are trying hard to fish now.

You want to see the epitome of Unblockable CC? Look at Warrior 6 seconds all attacks are unblockable, and they can keep the Cc up while all their Cc skills except one does more damage than PI w/Headshot.

Nice try though will wait for more excuses.

Rofl

How about a 20s steal that rips stability and applies a daze after. Insta cast, no animation, no need for LoS, teleports, etc etc.

See, what you obviously don’t understand is how different classes with different mechanics mean different thing when it comes to balance. So 6 seconds of unblockable attacks might seem crazy if, say, you’re a thief. But on a warrior at the cost of a utility spot, it’s not unreasonable at all. In fact the devs are so confident of it being on a warrior they actually give war the potential to double access (traited) on a 20s CD each. Because while it’s strong for a warrior to be able to pressure a target who wants to sit behind a block all of a sudden, it’s certainly not over powered considering- warrior. Nice strawman though, maybe try again.

To be clear: I’ve not targeted PI specifically at all. But I’m happy to continually point out how Thief ini system and their overall mechanics are, and have always been broken. If anything we should be thankful for the changes to the game that have left them in the somewhat troublesome (more a slight annoyance for them really than any actual problem) position they’re in. They’ve certainly always been able to take extreme advantage in this game, and still do.

Ini system is still there. Mechanics still haven’t changed.

Rev is the same.

It’s a good thing the Devs realised pretty early on with rev that skills do need cool down with only a resource cost. Still got some pretty bs stuff like UA and surge of the mists needs reducing in WvW too. I liked the addition of stun break to pain absorption, it’s starting to get into a decent state.

(Looks at ventari and Jalis stance)

Oh well er…3 out of 5 isn’t bad I guess.

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

Exactly. See, this guy gets it. While you have to wait around some circumstances to use Headshot, what’s really OP is the unblockable (bas venom), insta cast, non-LoS, teleport, boon stripping Steal. Of course Steal and Headshot are hardly the only options a thief has.

XD

Complaining now about a 40 sec single target 1 charge Cc that does no damage by itself, that the charge gets wasted if someone uses a Dodge, or if Thief gets blinded(which there is an abundance of) or if it gets obstructed, which FYI happens a lot to Steal even on perfectly flat ground, so no damage and no cc happen? Bahahaha, you guys are trying hard to fish now.

You want to see the epitome of Unblockable CC? Look at Warrior 6 seconds all attacks are unblockable, and they can keep the Cc up while all their Cc skills except one does more damage than PI w/Headshot.

Nice try though will wait for more excuses.

Rofl

How about a 20s steal that rips stability and applies a daze after. Insta cast, no animation, no need for LoS, teleports, etc etc.

See, what you obviously don’t understand is how different classes with different mechanics mean different thing when it comes to balance. So 6 seconds of unblockable attacks might seem crazy if, say, you’re a thief. But on a warrior at the cost of a utility spot, it’s not unreasonable at all. In fact the devs are so confident of it being on a warrior they actually give war the potential to double access (traited) on a 20s CD each. Because while it’s strong for a warrior to be able to pressure a target who wants to sit behind a block all of a sudden, it’s certainly not over powered considering- warrior. Nice strawman though, maybe try again.

To be clear: I’ve not targeted PI specifically at all. But I’m happy to continually point out how Thief ini system and their overall mechanics are, and have always been broken. If anything we should be thankful for the changes to the game that have left them in the somewhat troublesome (more a slight annoyance for them really than any actual problem) position they’re in. They’ve certainly always been able to take extreme advantage in this game, and still do.

Ini system is still there. Mechanics still haven’t changed.

Rev is the same.

Rofl if only Steal wasn’t defeated by simple positioning that anyone can take adavantage of on almost every map and even just normal pathing targets over flat ground….

I already understand that balance throughout the “Competitive” Gamemodes and that Thief isn’t even the biggest perpetrator of being Op , and that it’s not gonna get any better because of the incompetence of the balance Devs. Every class needs redesigns for PvP because every class has broken and annoying mechanics.

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

Cynz.9437:

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

When combined with 500 with Headshot and other 2k from the sigl of air/fire + beeing ranged that punish evey1 even for moving , then there something wrong

That why they nerfed the sigil of air and fire in the past , and the spamm Headshot spec where one most of the superior specs after the S/d have been ’’destroyed’’
(by Caed in the money-prized tournament with his Dagger/unerfed Black Powder spamm)

If your way of your thinking is like your theif (pewpewpew 2222222) , theres lies the problem of understanding with him

Edit: Dont say that the Elite specs caused harm to the game , and in the other hand try to defend them …
Thats simply moronic…

One question how does this punish people from moving??? The Meta Build people are complaining about doesn’t use Torment so no punishing people for moving. And complaining about Sigils that everyone has access to and that can go off on any attack, smh I feel like you are just trying to fish for a reason to cry for Something is OP, but keep trying to make excuses that have no bearing on the situation.

And guess what almost all classes currently have an over abundance of counters to the Interrupts and the Headshot projectile, almost all Meta Build puke out Stability, Aegis/Blocks/Projectile Hate, all on relatively low CD. Maybe they should Shave those down a lot if they are gonna nerf PI.

Exactly. See, this guy gets it. While you have to wait around some circumstances to use Headshot, what’s really OP is the unblockable (bas venom), insta cast, non-LoS, teleport, boon stripping Steal. Of course Steal and Headshot are hardly the only options a thief has.

XD

Complaining now about a 40 sec single target 1 charge Cc that does no damage by itself, that the charge gets wasted if someone uses a Dodge, or if Thief gets blinded(which there is an abundance of) or if it gets obstructed, which FYI happens a lot to Steal even on perfectly flat ground, so no damage and no cc happen? Bahahaha, you guys are trying hard to fish now.

You want to see the epitome of Unblockable CC? Look at Warrior 6 seconds all attacks are unblockable, and they can keep the Cc up while all their Cc skills except one does more damage than PI w/Headshot.

Nice try though will wait for more excuses.

Rofl

How about a 20s steal that rips stability and applies a daze after. Insta cast, no animation, no need for LoS, teleports, etc etc.

See, what you obviously don’t understand is how different classes with different mechanics mean different thing when it comes to balance. So 6 seconds of unblockable attacks might seem crazy if, say, you’re a thief. But on a warrior at the cost of a utility spot, it’s not unreasonable at all. In fact the devs are so confident of it being on a warrior they actually give war the potential to double access (traited) on a 20s CD each. Because while it’s strong for a warrior to be able to pressure a target who wants to sit behind a block all of a sudden, it’s certainly not over powered considering- warrior. Nice strawman though, maybe try again.

To be clear: I’ve not targeted PI specifically at all. But I’m happy to continually point out how Thief ini system and their overall mechanics are, and have always been broken. If anything we should be thankful for the changes to the game that have left them in the somewhat troublesome (more a slight annoyance for them really than any actual problem) position they’re in. They’ve certainly always been able to take extreme advantage in this game, and still do.

Ini system is still there. Mechanics still haven’t changed.

Rev is the same.

You know there are literally 8 different traits that thieves take to make steal as powerful as it is, right?

Not really. Of the ones they select in the meta build, only four are really selected since the remaining come as freebies in their respective trait lines, and the whole justification for picking those lines comes from other traits, and three of those selected are in Trickery which is the class mechanic line, which naturally affects mostly steal (yet it’s mostly taken for Preparedness/ToTC).

I don’t necessarily think steal is overloaded so much as it’s just terrible when it isn’t; without Trickery it’s probably one of the worst profession mechanics out there and DA just makes it amazing from weakness + poison + mug damage+ heal. The thing is, there’s no synergy anywhere else except SA, and DA/Tr are already amazing/required trait lines for other reasons as it is. Since stealth attacks got nerfed and BV stacks are down, the profession’s just generally weak without so much front-loaded stuff on the only reliable mechanic it has access to. Obviously Daredevil is just an excessive amount of powercreep like the rest of the elites.

The thief as a whole is in a weird spot that demands other things be nerfed with the intention to fix it in response to these changes. While I think the Headshot-ID problem is solvable through a very short ICD just to remove the efficacy of mindless spam making favorable matchups for the thief just un-fun (which is what most people complain about and I think this has merit across all professions), but short enough to allow an interrupt style of play to work successfully, the profession and the rest of the game need a lot more tuning.

A considerable portion of the problem is how the distribution of stats in sPvP affects the thief since it functions substantially better with more granular stat allocation options than the amulet system, while this is further exacerbated by the very nature of capture-and-hold gameplay which favors tanks/sustain and punishes stealth and mobility in it of itself.

I’ll be totally honest, I think Karl when making the Daredevil and ID was too fixated on making D/D Viper’s death blossom spam a viable build that it’s why it has an insane damage coefficient and isn’t allowed to crit. Unfortunately he failed to recognize the fact the meta build has been running a spammable interrupt (which didn’t see much use except in pro play for major skill casts, and even then, historically steal has been better) since the dawn of time.

350 posts = all the evidence needed that pi is op.

So lets shift to how to nerf it. I think it should do 15% less dps and should have a 10s icd. Still an amazing trait but maybe more balanced.

The trait is so op that any nerf must be two pronged. It needs two of: damage reduction, not proc on autos, icd addition, headshot increased cost.

At least two of these are needed. That is the consensus.

No one would take a 15% damage nerfed ID on a 10 second cd. EA outweighs it by far.

Moonsinn.5382:

No one would take a 15% damage nerfed ID on a 10 second cd. EA outweighs it by far.

Ea needs a nerf too then

Rickster.8752:

Moonsinn.5382:

No one would take a 15% damage nerfed ID on a 10 second cd. EA outweighs it by far.

Ea needs a nerf too then

Let me guess, 10 second cd on it too?

Rickster.8752:

Moonsinn.5382:

No one would take a 15% damage nerfed ID on a 10 second cd. EA outweighs it by far.

Ea needs a nerf too then

I laughed at this. EA is fine as is. If anything, it needs a buff, atleast for wvw it does anyway with all the mindless condi spam going on there.

Rickster.8752:

Moonsinn.5382:

No one would take a 15% damage nerfed ID on a 10 second cd. EA outweighs it by far.

Ea needs a nerf too then

Yeah those that take EA, Pi and Staff mastery are just OP. I mean not only do they get more endurance everytime they use their staff but they cleanse a condition on an evade and get 3 k damage on an interrupt. , all for free!

PI is fine. ~3k damage is not OP. There more damage on a shadowshot.

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

So he gives you a number range from 2.3 to 5.1 and you assume the average is 3.0. With the 2.3 being a highest possible toughness a target could have.

You know all this talk about how much damage PI does is very easy to prove. I already posted a pic of it doing 3k on the npc mesmer. Just use it in a match and post the results. It will likely be 3k or less if you are 1v1, or more in team fights or with vuln/might/bloodlust stacks.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.

No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.

There’s a reason ele can only exist as support and mesmer is a crappy version of thief as a roamer. There’s a reason druid only rolls support and engineer/necro are only condi.

Zenith.7301:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.

No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.

There’s a reason ele can only exist as support and mesmer is a crappy version of thief as a roamer. There’s a reason druid only rolls support and engineer/necro are only condi.

Thief farms any dps classes.