Guild Wars 2

shouldnt this thread be under the warrior category?

Zenith.7301:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.

No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.

There’s a reason ele can only exist as support and mesmer is a crappy version of thief as a roamer. There’s a reason druid only rolls support and engineer/necro are only condi.

This argument is extremely overused and really really wrong. Whole reason why other classes don’t run glass is because they have builds that offer them more in conquest.

There have been cases in the past when thief was extremely underplayed or not played at all (e.g. season 1), tournaments are great example, even now i have been in matches where there wasn’t a single thief on any team, yet people chose to run bunkier builds. Why? I mean there is no thief to murder them so why not run glassy builds? Because of nature of conquest. At the end of the day it is all about holding point and bruisers/bunkers exceel at it.

Also, what you said is wrong. Thieves don’t have better defense than wars or engis, whole reason why they are so mobile is because they cant stick to any fights due to their squishines. I play scrapper and necro and those are way tankier than my thief could ever be. The fun part, current meta war puts out way more dmg than thief (they can kill my necro way faster than thief) and is way tankier than thief as well.
Only reason why thief is still viable IS because it is so mobile. If thief didn’t have mobility it would be completely unviable. If you actually think that thief has better defense than all said classes, why don’t you go play one w/o running away, please record it so we all can see how tanky thieves are.

Cynz.9437:

Zenith.7301:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.

No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.

There’s a reason ele can only exist as support and mesmer is a crappy version of thief as a roamer. There’s a reason druid only rolls support and engineer/necro are only condi.

This argument is extremely overused and really really wrong. Whole reason why other classes don’t run glass is because they have builds that offer them more in conquest.

There have been cases in the past when thief was extremely underplayed or not played at all (e.g. season 1), tournaments are great example, even now i have been in matches where there wasn’t a single thief on any team, yet people chose to run bunkier builds. Why? I mean there is no thief to murder them so why not run glassy builds? Because of nature of conquest. At the end of the day it is all about holding point and bruisers/bunkers exceel at it.

Also, what you said is wrong. Thieves don’t have better defense than wars or engis, whole reason why they are so mobile is because they cant stick to any fights due to their squishines. I play scrapper and necro and those are way tankier than my thief could ever be. The fun part, current meta war puts out way more dmg than thief (they can kill my necro way faster than thief) and is way tankier than thief as well.
Only reason why thief is still viable IS because it is so mobile. If thief didn’t have mobility it would be completely unviable. If you actually think that thief has better defense than all said classes, why don’t you go play one w/o running away, please record it so we all can see how tanky thieves are.

Lol glass ele is completely countered by thief, saying otherwise only makes people give no merit to anything else you say. If running zerk an ele will literally die to a steal backstab, if running marauder they will live longer but given most ele weapons have substantial casts (all but dagger main hand) they’re easily farmed.

Ele cannot go glass because they will die very quickly and easily when focused by just about any class and easily outperformed by most classes within the high damage role. Need I remind you the original comment was about glass ele and glass mesmer not warrior and engy so stop bringing them up.

The comparison was made between glass ele/mes defences and thief, war and rev having better defences so I dunno why you keep bringing up engy, seems you just have an axe to grind at this point.

Pulmonary impact 2 seconds internal cooldown incomming

Urejt.5648:

Pulmonary impact 2 seconds internal cooldown incomming

Not even close to enough. 5 seconds wouldnt be enough either

I’m fine with PI as it is. It’s Headshot that rustles my jimmies with its constant daze at a relatively low cost of 4 initiative.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

Zenith.7301:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.

No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.

There’s a reason ele can only exist as support and mesmer is a crappy version of thief as a roamer. There’s a reason druid only rolls support and engineer/necro are only condi.

This argument is extremely overused and really really wrong. Whole reason why other classes don’t run glass is because they have builds that offer them more in conquest.

There have been cases in the past when thief was extremely underplayed or not played at all (e.g. season 1), tournaments are great example, even now i have been in matches where there wasn’t a single thief on any team, yet people chose to run bunkier builds. Why? I mean there is no thief to murder them so why not run glassy builds? Because of nature of conquest. At the end of the day it is all about holding point and bruisers/bunkers exceel at it.

Also, what you said is wrong. Thieves don’t have better defense than wars or engis, whole reason why they are so mobile is because they cant stick to any fights due to their squishines. I play scrapper and necro and those are way tankier than my thief could ever be. The fun part, current meta war puts out way more dmg than thief (they can kill my necro way faster than thief) and is way tankier than thief as well.
Only reason why thief is still viable IS because it is so mobile. If thief didn’t have mobility it would be completely unviable. If you actually think that thief has better defense than all said classes, why don’t you go play one w/o running away, please record it so we all can see how tanky thieves are.

Lol glass ele is completely countered by thief, saying otherwise only makes people give no merit to anything else you say. If running zerk an ele will literally die to a steal backstab, if running marauder they will live longer but given most ele weapons have substantial casts (all but dagger main hand) they’re easily farmed.

Ele cannot go glass because they will die very quickly and easily when focused by just about any class and easily outperformed by most classes within the high damage role. Need I remind you the original comment was about glass ele and glass mesmer not warrior and engy so stop bringing them up.

The comparison was made between glass ele/mes defences and thief, war and rev having better defences so I dunno why you keep bringing up engy, seems you just have an axe to grind at this point.

So is it thief preventing ele from going glass or just any class? Which is it, can you actually decide lol?

The comment i quoted refered to engis….. other posters can bring them up but i can’t now? What gives?

Once again, if thief is such an issue, why did nobody switch from bruiser/bunker builds in s1-2 when nobody played thief? I keep hearing same overused argument every year and yet i don’t see people going FA ele or glass engis or <insert any glass build here >, even in tourneys when there is no thief on either teams and people switch a lot. So what gives? Is thief really the issue or is it actually conquest?

I guess i should explain it in simple way. We have a problem A. Problem A i supposedly caused by X. X was removed. Problem A persists. Thus X is not the cause. Yet people in this thread, that don’t even know what cosume plasma is, are screaming that X is the cause even though we removed X trying to solve A. <<<this thread in summary.

Also, on side note, i am well aware that ele is stuck with support role for years now however thief is in no better place. Other classes got specs that extended their roles (e.g. ranger got support role, guard got ranged dps role, engis got decent dps build to add to their usual condi specs etc.), thief on other hand got just another acro v2. Same hit-and-run roaming role, literary nothing new. Not even remote variety of that roaming role. I personally really hoped thief would get something like druid spec so thief can switch to support instead of measy dps with high mobility heavily relying on teamates to hold the point.

Urejt.5648:

Pulmonary impact 2 seconds internal cooldown incomming

More like bunker meta incomming (hello s1 all over again) /facepalm.

Still waiting on valid argument that proves PI is OP

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

Zenith.7301:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.

No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.

There’s a reason ele can only exist as support and mesmer is a crappy version of thief as a roamer. There’s a reason druid only rolls support and engineer/necro are only condi.

This argument is extremely overused and really really wrong. Whole reason why other classes don’t run glass is because they have builds that offer them more in conquest.

There have been cases in the past when thief was extremely underplayed or not played at all (e.g. season 1), tournaments are great example, even now i have been in matches where there wasn’t a single thief on any team, yet people chose to run bunkier builds. Why? I mean there is no thief to murder them so why not run glassy builds? Because of nature of conquest. At the end of the day it is all about holding point and bruisers/bunkers exceel at it.

Also, what you said is wrong. Thieves don’t have better defense than wars or engis, whole reason why they are so mobile is because they cant stick to any fights due to their squishines. I play scrapper and necro and those are way tankier than my thief could ever be. The fun part, current meta war puts out way more dmg than thief (they can kill my necro way faster than thief) and is way tankier than thief as well.
Only reason why thief is still viable IS because it is so mobile. If thief didn’t have mobility it would be completely unviable. If you actually think that thief has better defense than all said classes, why don’t you go play one w/o running away, please record it so we all can see how tanky thieves are.

Lol glass ele is completely countered by thief, saying otherwise only makes people give no merit to anything else you say. If running zerk an ele will literally die to a steal backstab, if running marauder they will live longer but given most ele weapons have substantial casts (all but dagger main hand) they’re easily farmed.

Ele cannot go glass because they will die very quickly and easily when focused by just about any class and easily outperformed by most classes within the high damage role. Need I remind you the original comment was about glass ele and glass mesmer not warrior and engy so stop bringing them up.

The comparison was made between glass ele/mes defences and thief, war and rev having better defences so I dunno why you keep bringing up engy, seems you just have an axe to grind at this point.

So is it thief preventing ele from going glass or just any class? Which is it, can you actually decide lol?

The comment i quoted refered to engis….. other posters can bring them up but i can’t now? What gives?

Once again, if thief is such an issue, why did nobody switch from bruiser/bunker builds in s1-2 when nobody played thief? I keep hearing same overused argument every year and yet i don’t see people going FA ele or glass engis or <insert any glass build here >, even in tourneys when there is no thief on either teams and people switch a lot. So what gives? Is thief really the issue or is it actually conquest?

I guess i should explain it in simple way. We have a problem A. Problem A i supposedly caused by X. X was removed. Problem A persists. Thus X is not the cause. Yet people in this thread, that don’t even know what cosume plasma is, are screaming that X is the cause even though we removed X trying to solve A. <<<this thread in summary.

Urejt.5648:

Pulmonary impact 2 seconds internal cooldown incomming

More like bunker meta incomming (hello s1 all over again) /facepalm.

Come on dude. You know pi is seriously op. Stop pretending!

Cynz.9437:

So is it thief preventing ele from going glass or just any class? Which is it, can you actually decide lol?

This is the original arguement:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

To which Zenith responded with “No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.”

Just because glass ele is hard countered by thief it doesn’t mean thief has a monopoly on that counter. Glass eles are extremely countered by thieves however they are also countered by warrior, rev and quite a few other classes in the meta as outside of their burst they just don’t have the sustain and damage of other classes in the meta. However the point still stands, they’re countered to extreme lengths by thief, war and rev, all of which were mentioned in the guys post specifically.

Nice of you to try and twist my argument into saying ele is only countered by thief however I didn’t say it was only countered by thief.

Cynz.9437:

The comment i quoted refered to engis….. other posters can bring them up but i can’t now? What gives?

You mean this?

“No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.”

You put: “thieves don’t have better defense than wars or engis, whole reason why they are so mobile is because they cant stick to any fights due to their squishines. I play scrapper and necro and those are way tankier than my thief could ever be.”

Thief has way better engage/disengage than any other class, no questions asked, it has been an unquestionable fact for 3 years nearly. You made no mention or seemed to account for this at all in your remark which seem weird as any glass specs role isn’t generally to be in a team fight but to spike people down and move on. Mobility here counts for a great deal more than defences to which thief has ample for it’s role and in this regard the poster was right with those 3 classes.

Let me ask, are you playing glass scrapper or the meta paladins/menders?

Cynz.9437:

Once again, if thief is such an issue, why did nobody switch from bruiser/bunker builds in s1-2 when nobody played thief? I keep hearing same overused argument every year and yet i don’t see people going FA ele or glass engis or <insert any glass build here >, even in tourneys when there is no thief on either teams and people switch a lot. So what gives? Is thief really the issue or is it actually conquest?

As mentioned, glass ele is hard countered by thief but also warrior and rev. Do I also have to point out how ridiculous what you said is when there is a world of difference between the state of the game now and the state of the game in S1/2?

Now before someone mentions “what does glass ele have to do with IP?” Well IP will completely shut down a glass ele build using Sceptre, even then a lot of damaging skills on other weapons are highly interruptable which means while an ele might be able to cover their heal they can’t pressure or attack so it’s a lost fight.

Oh and believe me, if you actually roamed in WvW instead of following a tag and trash talking players while spamming shortbow skills to tag enemies you’d realise how completely broken thief truly is. Conquest is the only thing stopping thief from showing how terrible it’s mechanics are, just ask Deceiver X or look at some of his posts.

Cynz.9437:

More like bunker meta incomming (hello s1 all over again) /facepalm.

You brought this idea up before and it’s still just as wrong.

Thieves are not bunker killers, and the s1 meta was not because of a lack of thieves.

Look at the current matchups for thieves. Thieves do poorly against Druids, Dh, engi, and to a lesser extent warriors. Incidentally those classes happen to be the bunkers.

Thieves perform much more poorly against bunkers than they do against offensive builds. That’s why Thieves where junk in S1 (also because revs). Arenanet has been systematically killing off bunkers which has contributed to the current thief heavy meta.

Cynz.9437:

Urejt.5648:

Pulmonary impact 2 seconds internal cooldown incomming

More like bunker meta incomming (hello s1 all over again) /facepalm.

So let me get this straight. You claim that thief is the only class that can bust bunkers. Whether or not this is true is irrelevant for the moment, but you claimed here that without thief in its current iteration, no other classes would be able to bust bunkers. How in the world can you honestly claim that the only class that can bust a bunker is not only underpowered and needs love, but also isn’t ridiculously broken given that he has all of that power on top of the highest mobility in the game? How can you honestly claim that this class is fine when you just admitted that you think thief is the only class that can bust a bunker?

@Crinn.7864 thief saw few changes since s1, they also nerfed some mechanics that stopped thief damage completely (see DH traps, daze on gyros etc.).
Also, see below vv

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Urejt.5648:

Pulmonary impact 2 seconds internal cooldown incomming

More like bunker meta incomming (hello s1 all over again) /facepalm.

So let me get this straight. You claim that thief is the only class that can bust bunkers. Whether or not this is true is irrelevant for the moment, but you claimed here that without thief in its current iteration, no other classes would be able to bust bunkers. How in the world can you honestly claim that the only class that can bust a bunker is not only underpowered and needs love, but also isn’t ridiculously broken given that he has all of that power on top of the highest mobility in the game? How can you honestly claim that this class is fine when you just admitted that you think thief is the only class that can bust a bunker?

I didn’t say thief bursts bunkers, thief does however help to deal with bunkers and bring variety to games. If thief/rev is gone we have nothing else but ppl afking on nodes because that is what other classes are built for. Presense of thief does force people to rotate hence why you would want to have something lighter (e.g. mes, rev or another thief) on your team to rotate as well. If i play a scrapper vs ele or another scrapper, we will never kill each other, the point will be contested all match long. If thief however helps me, i might cap the point since they fight will be over relatively quick. Thief by himself wouldn’t be able to kill those quickly either (if at all) but with combined help they can.

@apharma.3741: Fat wasn’t wrong, eles and mes do pump out more dmg if they build for it, it is their choice not to.
You do claim that thief hardcounters ele so much thus implying thief needs a nerf, where in fact issue lies with ele and not thief because dps ele is just generally not doing so well atm.

“They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of." is still in the same sentence. The sentence does state that thief has better defense than glass ele/ranger/mes/engi which is just wrong.

I play paladin scrapper because i play to hold point and not murder people. It is my choice. I may not spike people to death but i can hold point for extended period of time vs multiple enemies. So here is that. Surely, glass engi couldn’t do that but glass engi also play differently and frankly engi is not really meant to be a roamer atm, same as thief is not meant to be a point holder. It was Anet’s decision. I will never be good team support like ele or druid, same way as ele not going to be good dps spike roamer (unless Anet suddenly changes their opinion). What you basically claim, by the looks of it, is that it is wrong that thief is at least good at one role and shouldn’t have any at all.

“Do I also have to point out how ridiculous what you said is when there is a world of difference between the state of the game now and the state of the game in S1/2?”
I am well aware that meta has changed, point remains, when thieves didn’t exist (and s1 wasn’t only example for it), people still prefered to run bunker/bruiser builds. Why? Because of conquest.

Glass ele would also die to literary every single meta build so i don’t see your point here.

Also, wvw is completely irrelevant to pvp. Completely different mode, completely different objectives. If Anet did balance game around wvw, you wouldn’t be able to play your beloved mes in pvp at all.

with marauder scrapper i usually kill thieves . Perhaps it depends on what you mean for dps engi . If you consider only sd rifle berserker ok , thieves are really hard to catch up but if you consider a marauder scrapper , thief is not invincible

Current gen Necromancer is a far better Bunker killer than thieves are. However necro is countered hard by thieves. However if there are less thieves there will be more necros which in turn means less bunkers.

I am well aware that meta has changed, point remains, when thieves didn’t exist (and s1 wasn’t only example for it), people still prefered to run bunker/bruiser builds. Why?

Correlation is not the same as Causation. You’re assuming that the bunker meta was because of thieves being out of meta. That’s not true though. Thieves where out of meta in s1-s3 because revs just did everything better.

Cynz.9437:

@apharma.3741: Fat wasn’t wrong, eles and mes do pump out more dmg if they build for it, it is their choice not to.
You do claim that thief hardcounters ele so much thus implying thief needs a nerf, where in fact issue lies with ele and not thief because dps ele is just generally not doing so well atm.

“They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of." is still in the same sentence. The sentence does state that thief has better defense than glass ele/ranger/mes/engi which is just wrong.

I play paladin scrapper because i play to hold point and not murder people. It is my choice. I may not spike people to death but i can hold point for extended period of time vs multiple enemies. So here is that. Surely, glass engi couldn’t do that but glass engi also play differently and frankly engi is not really meant to be a roamer atm, same as thief is not meant to be a point holder. It was Anet’s decision. I will never be good team support like ele or druid, same way as ele not going to be good dps spike roamer (unless Anet suddenly changes their opinion).

Except you can’t pump out damage if you’re dead most of the time or actually cannot put out the damage because your “high damage” are highly telegraphed abilities or have 3/4s cast times and susceptible to IP which this discussion is about. Glass ele has clear strengths and weaknesses, risks and rewards the problem isn’t all ele though it has it’s problems, it’s the lack of risk in many damage builds now, could probably say most meta builds tbh.

You play paladins scrapper so of course your scrapper is going to be more tanky, you have 560 more toughness on top of 3 defensive lines. Making the kind of comparison you did earlier is very misleading.

Cynz.9437:

What you basically claim, by the looks of it, is that it is wrong that thief is at least good at one role and shouldn’t have any at all.

Nope, never said that and if you’d bothered to read any post I’ve made in the forums at all you’d know I actually want build variety for all classes including thief. I have no issues with a few classes being better at a role than others so long as the difference is not so disgustingly large as it is now. This is classic of what you do though, always assume and run away with what people say.

Cynz.9437:

“Do I also have to point out how ridiculous what you said is when there is a world of difference between the state of the game now and the state of the game in S1/2?”
I am well aware that meta has changed, point remains, when thieves didn’t exist (and s1 wasn’t only example for it), people still prefered to run bunker/bruiser builds. Why? Because of conquest.

Glass ele would also die to literary every single meta build so i don’t see your point here.

Also, wvw is completely irrelevant to pvp. Completely different mode, completely different objectives. If Anet did balance game around wvw, you wouldn’t be able to play your beloved mes in pvp at all.

The reason I bring up WvW is that it is a game mode without point cap mechanics, essentially where the conquest style is mostly removed. If you go play that you will see that the issue isn’t conquest, it is actually thief and how it’s mechanics need a complete overhaul especially stealth.

FYI I don’t play mesmer in PvP, I’m not mechanically good with condition builds as I play power mes in WvW, couple that with not having the required map awareness to fulfil the role and would be a liability on that build.

Edit: Added “The problem isn’t all ele though it has some problems”

Crinn.7864:

Current gen Necromancer is a far better Bunker killer than thieves are. However necro is countered hard by thieves. However if there are less thieves there will be more necros which in turn means less bunkers.

Possibly. I however doubt that there would be less bunkers if there were more necros. If anything there would be more bunkers/support to deal with said condi bombs. Also, as i necro i find mes and wars bigger threat than thief atm.

Cynz.9437:

I am well aware that meta has changed, point remains, when thieves didn’t exist (and s1 wasn’t only example for it), people still prefered to run bunker/bruiser builds. Why?

Correlation is not the same as Causation. *You’re assuming that the bunker meta was because of thieves being out of meta. *That’s not true though. Thieves where out of meta in s1-s3 because revs just did everything better.

WHERE did i say that, please show me. My point is that when there was no thieves people still prefered to play bunkers. Did you even read the post you just quoted?

@apharma.3741:
- point is, other classes have better damage capability than thief IF they chose to go dps. Whether they can survive with it, is different story. Also, we still have example of warrior pumping out way more dmg while also being extremely bunkery.

- maraduer scrapper has still more suvival than thief. What is your point?

- but you do have issues with thief doing damage atm, do you? Otherwise you wouldn’t be in this thread demanding IP nerf, or am i guessing wrong? If i am understanding right, IP should be nerfed because thieves stop FA eles from doing pvp, supposedly. By that logic, all dps classes and all supports and bunkers should be nerfed because they prevent thief from playing support.

- once again bringing up wvw is pointless. I am not going to respond to any wvw arguments anymore as it is completely irrelevant to pvp and game will never be balanced around that mode. Hi, i am raiding on ele and chrono, thieves are not welcome thus eles need to be nerfed and thieves buffed – your logic right here.

Cynz.9437:

@apharma.3741:
- point is, other classes have better damage capability than thief IF they chose to go dps. Whether they can survive with it, is different story. Also, we still have example of warrior pumping out way more dmg while also being extremely bunkery.

Yes this ties back to what I have said before about how berserker spec removed the risk from what would be a balanced class. Berserker spec brought about 2 things:

1. Low cool down T3 burst skills
2. Easier ways to build adrenaline

Core warrior has trouble building adrenaline without traiting for it and missing a burst is a big hit to it’s condition cleansing and healing. Berserker doesn’t suffer this problem at all as if it misses swap weapon and have another shot.

Cynz.9437:

- maraduer scrapper has still more suvival than thief. What is your point?

The point I made incredibly clear if you’d bothered to read is that it also has a lot less mobility than a thief. When you consider both points the thief is on top as being able to run away from a bad fight or to a good fight in your favour is worth as much as if not more than your defences in it. The thief also has the tools to survive a decent time in a fight, not as long as scrapper but again, you need to take mobility into account.

Cynz.9437:

- but you do have issues with thief doing damage atm, do you? Otherwise you wouldn’t be in this thread demanding IP nerf, or am i guessing wrong?

I have issues with IP not thief doing damage. IP is a bad trait that is too rewarding to a spec (DP) that arguably doesn’t need help while also requiring nothing but power stat to do the large amount of damage it does.

I have issues with thief’s insane mobility and how it cannot have a point holding build at all because of this and the general balance of thief.

Cynz.9437:

- once again bringing up wvw is pointless. I am not going to respond to any wvw arguments anymore as it is completely irrelevant to pvp and game will never be balanced around that mode.

Fine by me but it was pointing as proof that thief (and many other combinations of skills, stats and specs on many classes) is incredibly broken when you remove conquest.

Give thief boons/invul’s and blocks like a scrapper and then they won’t need to run away, at this moment a thief has no choice but to run away.

Cynz.9437:

Possibly. I however doubt that there would be less bunkers if there were more necros. If anything there would be more bunkers/support to deal with said condi bombs. Also, as i necro i find mes and wars bigger threat than thief atm.

Stacking bunkers/supports to deal with necro condis is actually playing into the necro’s hands.
The best supports for dealing condi bombs are Shout ele and Purge Engi. Thing is that support ele and engi are the absolute easiest matchups you can give a necro. Supports are boon heavy, which means the necro has a endless supply of cover condis from the boon corrupts. More bunkers/supports also means less DPS which means less pressure on the necro which in turn allows the necro to apply even more pressure on the supports.

The best way to deal with necros is too stack offense.

I will agree that Mesmer is a nightmare matchup for a necro, but thieves are just as bad. Warriors matchups vary wildly depending on circumstance.

Cynz.9437:

WHERE did i say that, please show me. My point is that when there was no thieves people still prefered to play bunkers.

People preferred bunkers in s1 because of how hilariously overtuned bunkers (esp chrono) where in s1. Conquest doesn’t favor bunkers. (bunking points only works if you already got the cap) however when bunkers are so overtuned as to be nigh invincible (which they where in s1) then yes you get a bunker meta.

You’ve been pushing this idea that thieves must be as strong as they are currently or else we will have bunker meta all over again. That is a completely false position.

What if pulm couldn’t be stacked?

Azukas.1426:

Still waiting on valid argument that proves PI is OP

Sorry guys, Azukas has ignored or dismissed everything you’ve said, deeming them as invalid. Threads over. Judge has spoken.

https://youtu.be/itmNiTwHOsM?t=19

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Still waiting on valid argument that proves PI is OP

Sorry guys, Azukas has ignored or dismissed everything you’ve said, deeming them as invalid. Threads over. Judge has spoken.

https://youtu.be/itmNiTwHOsM?t=19

He’s allowed to because Sindrener said this one thing this one time, it’s in his signature dummy!

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

ele is so boring to play tho.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Still waiting on valid argument that proves PI is OP

Sorry guys, Azukas has ignored or dismissed everything you’ve said, deeming them as invalid. Threads over. Judge has spoken.

https://youtu.be/itmNiTwHOsM?t=19

Trying to hard mate. Need to bring some facts to the table

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Still waiting on valid argument that proves PI is OP

Sorry guys, Azukas has ignored or dismissed everything you’ve said, deeming them as invalid. Threads over. Judge has spoken.

https://youtu.be/itmNiTwHOsM?t=19

Trying to hard mate. Need to bring some facts to the table

So do you, since you’ve contributed nothing to this thread except quoting yourself and telling other people to “provide facts”, all while conveniently ignoring all of the posts that do in fact provide facts to back up the claims made

OriOri.8724:

Azukas.1426:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Still waiting on valid argument that proves PI is OP

Sorry guys, Azukas has ignored or dismissed everything you’ve said, deeming them as invalid. Threads over. Judge has spoken.

https://youtu.be/itmNiTwHOsM?t=19

Trying to hard mate. Need to bring some facts to the table

So do you, since you’ve contributed nothing to this thread except quoting yourself and telling other people to “provide facts”, all while conveniently ignoring all of the posts that do in fact provide facts to back up the claims made

Don’t mind him/her much, I’ve hardly seen anyone else as stubborn.

Huh, i’ve seen the number 15% damage shave quite a few times in here now….
So…wouldn’t the problem lie, in parts at least, in traits like Lead Attacks?

So… it comes down again to: don’t have two class-mechanic lines in one class, again.
For me at least.

Zenith.7301:

Of course he dismisses WvW because WvW highlights all that is wrong with these high mobility, spammy spike damage classes and classes with stealth/high immunity uptimes like thief and warrior and engineer that every roamer and their mother loves to play.

Ehhhhh to be fair you really can’t do anything but dismiss WvW balance problems because the mode has no small scale fight balance

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Zenith.7301:

Of course he dismisses WvW because WvW highlights all that is wrong with these high mobility, spammy spike damage classes and classes with stealth/high immunity uptimes like thief and warrior and engineer that every roamer and their mother loves to play.

Ehhhhh to be fair you really can’t do anything but dismiss WvW balance problems because the mode has no small scale fight balance

You could start by placing the same stat limitations that exist in spvp, cap crit damage and condi duration/duration reduction stacking that comes via gear/food.

Part of the reason why warrior/thief is more contained in spvp is because they can’t jack up their survival the way they do while still maintaining incredibly high damage bonuses. This would also touch eles/guardians in large scale by reducing the amount of damage you can stack and guardian/warrior frontlines wouldn’t be able to push out as much damage in their defensive builds.

Zenith.7301:

Part of the reason why warrior/thief is more contained in spvp is because they can’t jack up their survival the way they do while still maintaining incredibly high damage bonuses.

Defensive stacked classes don’t do “incredibly high damage”

WvW meta builds do well under half of the damage output of a optimized build. The problem is that classes base health in this game is so low that you don’t need anywhere near optimized DPS to blow people up.

Crinn.7864:

Zenith.7301:

Part of the reason why warrior/thief is more contained in spvp is because they can’t jack up their survival the way they do while still maintaining incredibly high damage bonuses.

Defensive stacked classes don’t do “incredibly high damage”

WvW meta builds do well under half of the damage output of a optimized build. The problem is that classes base health in this game is so low that you don’t need anywhere near optimized DPS to blow people up.

A warrior in knights/marauder is gonna do more damage and be tankier to me than some pitiful greatsword necro in zerker gear.

I could play a zerker dagger ele and not even get around to doing damage because my damage is all air autos and burning retreat and I’d be dead by the third air auto to some warrior in knights who turned around and chunked half my health in two hits.

There are simply classes who can get away with more offensive stats since they have greater baseline defense and a greater spike damage sponge by virtue of higher base health pool or better recovery tools.

You also bring up HP pools as an issue, but in spvp the TTK is longer because crit damage is capped at 60% crit damage bonus, people can’t reach 100%+ crit damage and almost guaranteed crits, they can’t reach ridiculous amounts of condi duration or use food to up their damage even further. They can’t just easily farm mobs/uplevels for bloodlust stacks and they die more frequently (the punishment to a thief for disengaging is losing the point, a weakness that doesn’t exist in WvW).

So, I looked up the trait that is the reason for this thread on the wiki page, and saw this:

Anomaly: Applied when a control effect is used, even when stability is present.

…and if that’s still true, then woah, yeah, that’s a problem.

Zenith.7301:

Crinn.7864:

Zenith.7301:

Part of the reason why warrior/thief is more contained in spvp is because they can’t jack up their survival the way they do while still maintaining incredibly high damage bonuses.

Defensive stacked classes don’t do “incredibly high damage”

WvW meta builds do well under half of the damage output of a optimized build. The problem is that classes base health in this game is so low that you don’t need anywhere near optimized DPS to blow people up.

A warrior in knights/marauder is gonna do more damage and be tankier to me than some pitiful greatsword necro in zerker gear.

I could play a zerker dagger ele and not even get around to doing damage because my damage is all air autos and burning retreat and I’d be dead by the third air auto to some warrior in knights who turned around and chunked half my health in two hits.

There are simply classes who can get away with more offensive stats since they have greater baseline defense and a greater spike damage sponge by virtue of higher base health pool or better recovery tools.

You also bring up HP pools as an issue, but in spvp the TTK is longer because crit damage is capped at 60% crit damage bonus, people can’t reach 100%+ crit damage and almost guaranteed crits, they can’t reach ridiculous amounts of condi duration or use food to up their damage even further. They can’t just easily farm mobs/uplevels for bloodlust stacks and they die more frequently (the punishment to a thief for disengaging is losing the point, a weakness that doesn’t exist in WvW).

You completely and utterly misunderstood what I said.

WvW builds do crap damage. Go look up what a raid composition does in DPS, and compare it to what a equal sized WvW composition does in DPS.

PvP builds are not high damage in any way shape for form. People think they are high damage because the base health pools in this game are hilariously low. That is the point I’m making.

Crinn.7864:

Zenith.7301:

Crinn.7864:

Zenith.7301:

Part of the reason why warrior/thief is more contained in spvp is because they can’t jack up their survival the way they do while still maintaining incredibly high damage bonuses.

Defensive stacked classes don’t do “incredibly high damage”

WvW meta builds do well under half of the damage output of a optimized build. The problem is that classes base health in this game is so low that you don’t need anywhere near optimized DPS to blow people up.

A warrior in knights/marauder is gonna do more damage and be tankier to me than some pitiful greatsword necro in zerker gear.

I could play a zerker dagger ele and not even get around to doing damage because my damage is all air autos and burning retreat and I’d be dead by the third air auto to some warrior in knights who turned around and chunked half my health in two hits.

There are simply classes who can get away with more offensive stats since they have greater baseline defense and a greater spike damage sponge by virtue of higher base health pool or better recovery tools.

You also bring up HP pools as an issue, but in spvp the TTK is longer because crit damage is capped at 60% crit damage bonus, people can’t reach 100%+ crit damage and almost guaranteed crits, they can’t reach ridiculous amounts of condi duration or use food to up their damage even further. They can’t just easily farm mobs/uplevels for bloodlust stacks and they die more frequently (the punishment to a thief for disengaging is losing the point, a weakness that doesn’t exist in WvW).

You completely and utterly misunderstood what I said.

WvW builds do crap damage. Go look up what a raid composition does in DPS, and compare it to what a equal sized WvW composition does in DPS.

PvP builds are not high damage in any way shape for form. People think they are high damage because the base health pools in this game are hilariously low. That is the point I’m making.

Fair enough, although I’d say most roaming thief builds are running pretty similar to zerker PvE thief, only difference being some trait choices to combat condi.

I think treating WvW to not be like PvE and placing the spvp stat caps would go a long way in making people not feel like they’re blowing up because a thief is critting you for 10k+ damage whereas in spvp a thief crits you for 6k at best and pays the price for the wealth of disengages and easy access to stealth by losing the point.

Warrior is a similar problem, too easy access to invulnerabilities/damage avoidance tools while maintaining relatively high damage.

Rickster.8752:

One or the other. It is very overpowered.

So either headshot should have a cast time (maybe 0.75 seconds to add counter play) or PI should just do about 25-50% less damage.

Things are really not fun.

Time to act.

Bugged since it was added. It states it doesn’t crit. It actually crits, it just doesn’t do the critical attack visual when it does. That’s how it ranges from 1.8k to 4.5k.

A bug should be fixed. So essentially, I agree. Nerf it.

Levijeh.9643:

I would suggest adding an internal CD of 12 seconds to headshot and initiative cost for the second and third shot:

First use of headshot costs 4 initiative
Second headshot costs 5 initiative
Third headshot costs 6 initiative

When CD ends headshot initiative cost resets to 4 again.

That nerfs core thief when its the DD trait that people are upset over. Just put an ICD on being able to apply PI and it would be fine.

The thing with PI that always confounds me design wise is that it was supposed to be attached to the Fist Flurry as it’s thing, you Fist of the North Star a sap, then one more time and “they are already dead” triggers a bit later (if you didn’t know, Fist Flurry flips to Palm Strike which applies 1 stack of PI).

The thing is, it is impossible to land all kittens of fist flurry against people with a brain, so you never flip to Palm Strike (which is supposed to be “THE BIG DAMAGE”). Why is PI so easy in comparison (design wise)?

The easiest fix would be to reduce the damage per stack of PI by about 66%, adjust Fist Flurry to only require 3 out of kittens to flip to palm strike, and make palm strike apply 3 stacks of PI, 6 if you interrupt with it (it causes a hard stun fyi). Palm Strike is now the offensive PI tool with a huge amount damage if you interrupt with it (6 stacks means it does 2 current PI’s worth of damage).

Also, personally, I think Fist Flurry should do 10 hits (reduce the damage per hit in half) and require 6 to land. The channel time should not increase much (if it all). Much more thematically appopriately to true ATATATATA.

Levijeh.9643:

OriOri.8724:

Levijeh.9643:

I would suggest adding an internal CD of 12 seconds to headshot and initiative cost for the second and third shot:

First use of headshot costs 4 initiative
Second headshot costs 5 initiative
Third headshot costs 6 initiative

When CD ends headshot initiative cost resets to 4 again.

That nerfs core thief when its the DD trait that people are upset over. Just put an ICD on being able to apply PI and it would be fine.

Easy then, add a readable animation to Headshot so you’re able to dodge it. It has to be one way or the other, but Headshot shouldn’t be spammable.

Do you have a problem with headshot or the PI that is applied when it interrupts you? Because if you have a problem with headshot then yes I understand why you are trying to get it nerfed. But if you have a problem with PI then nerfing headshot is an incredibly roundabout way to go about it, and one that unfairly nerfs core thief.

400 posts asking for a nerf and nothing arrives. GG anet you really do not listen to your player base. LITERALLY nothing lol

Rickster.8752:

400 posts asking for a nerf and nothing arrives. GG anet you really do not listen to your player base. LITERALLY nothing lol

Not every poster here agrees with PI nerf….

Cynz.9437:

Rickster.8752:

400 posts asking for a nerf and nothing arrives. GG anet you really do not listen to your player base. LITERALLY nothing lol

Not every poster here agrees with PI nerf….

This^… The last thing we need is for great bunker busting tools to be nerfed. Nerfing thieves dodges instead was the smart move. Gj anet, I truly have a lot of hope for the game after seeing this patch.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Cynz.9437:

Rickster.8752:

400 posts asking for a nerf and nothing arrives. GG anet you really do not listen to your player base. LITERALLY nothing lol

Not every poster here agrees with PI nerf….

This^… The last thing we need is for great bunker busting tools to be nerfed. Nerfing thieves dodges instead was the smart move. Gj anet, I truly have a lot of hope for the game after seeing this patch.

PI doesn’t bust bunkers, it busts everybody.

Bunker busters are things like unblockable and boon steal, not spammable raw damage procs that can trigger on something as simple and essential as autoattacks.

Now there’s an idea. I wonder how kittened off thief mains would be if PI couldn’t proc off an interrupted auto attack lol. Probably would be UP at that point but it would be funny to see their reactions to it.

OriOri.8724:

Now there’s an idea. I wonder how kittened off thief mains would be if PI couldn’t proc off an interrupted auto attack lol. Probably would be UP at that point but it would be funny to see their reactions to it.

How would it be UP, it’s virtually a free 3-4k damage when someone tries to hill or use any of the other 9 skills on their bar, given how spammable headshot is now that they don’t need to spend initiative to do damage via backstab since autoattacks were buffed.

Zenith.7301:

OriOri.8724:

Now there’s an idea. I wonder how kittened off thief mains would be if PI couldn’t proc off an interrupted auto attack lol. Probably would be UP at that point but it would be funny to see their reactions to it.

How would it be UP, it’s virtually a free 3-4k damage when someone tries to hill or use any of the other 9 skills on their bar, given how spammable headshot is now that they don’t need to spend initiative to do damage via backstab since autoattacks were buffed.

meanwhile DH AA does as much dmg as PI from 1200 range and everyone is fine with it

it’s funny how ppl who do not play thief and do not know how to play thief enrage about spammable/free (whooooot)/unblockable PI…

Cynz.9437:

Zenith.7301:

OriOri.8724:

Now there’s an idea. I wonder how kittened off thief mains would be if PI couldn’t proc off an interrupted auto attack lol. Probably would be UP at that point but it would be funny to see their reactions to it.

How would it be UP, it’s virtually a free 3-4k damage when someone tries to hill or use any of the other 9 skills on their bar, given how spammable headshot is now that they don’t need to spend initiative to do damage via backstab since autoattacks were buffed.

meanwhile DH AA does as much dmg as PI from 1200 range and everyone is fine with it

It’s a significantly slower projectile with an actual cast time and it doesn’t interrupt….how much trolling are you gonna do?

People complaing about PI?

I died to 50k burn ticks in seconds….50 kittening k on my necro (to a burn guardian).

Zenith.7301:

Cynz.9437:

Zenith.7301:

OriOri.8724:

Now there’s an idea. I wonder how kittened off thief mains would be if PI couldn’t proc off an interrupted auto attack lol. Probably would be UP at that point but it would be funny to see their reactions to it.

How would it be UP, it’s virtually a free 3-4k damage when someone tries to hill or use any of the other 9 skills on their bar, given how spammable headshot is now that they don’t need to spend initiative to do damage via backstab since autoattacks were buffed.

meanwhile DH AA does as much dmg as PI from 1200 range and everyone is fine with it

It’s a significantly slower projectile with an actual cast time and it doesn’t interrupt….how much trolling are you gonna do?

Because it’s a ranged AA and it’s free. although it can be used vs Los, so can head shot…which needs an action to proc it, no stability and that’s if the thief has 4 inative to waste/spare. You keep saying that a thief has nothing to worry about while using head shot.