Guild Wars 2

Jonathan Sharp said:

Oh, also, the reason we can’t give Necro’s too much disengage has to do with the point of “purity of purpose”.
In this game, we want to allow classes the ability to deal with all situations but in
different ways. But, if we give all classes all TOOLS (which is a different thing), then
players get confused as to which classes fill which roles, and in what way they fill those roles.
Example: In PvP, the Necro and Engi both vie for the position of condition pressure. The engineer has more physical alternatives, the Necro has more boon/condition manipulation, the Engi has more escapability, and the Necro is a little squishier. If we gave the Necro too much mobility or escapability, then all of a sudden their “tools” start to line up exactly. If this is the case, one of them will simply be better than the other, as far as efficacy goes, and thus, one will push the other out of the meta for that “role” on the team. This class would then be the “apex” predator for that role. So, in order to prevent this, we try to make it so that the classes don’t have all their tools overlap perfectly.

I assert thieves are the current Apex predator for their role.

Mesmers and thieves (and elementalists) all vie for the role of support/burst DPS and roamer. That role requires quick burst damage, high mobility both in and out of combat, and good escape mechanisms. When looking at these roles:
* thieves have the better burst
* thieves have the better mobility both in and out of combat
* thieves have the better escape mechanisms

There are other factors which play into selecting which profession to bring, including: group healing, group buffs, group utility, survivability/tankiness. Neither bring anything substantial to the table in terms of group healing. Mesmers can bring aoe stability, but the range is so limited (240m) it’s hardly useful to the team. Mesmers bring Time Warp which is very useful. The ability for a thief to access stealth so easily gives thieves far better survivability than a mesmer can achieve. In terms of group utility, thieves get Shadow Refuge, which they can use both offensively to zerg strike and defensively to heal. This single thief utility is the functional equivalent of the Mesmer’s Veil, Mass Invisibility, and Illusion of Life, rolled into a single ability, and on a far shorter cooldown…and it’s an AoE heal and a dark combo field.

And, on top of this, thieves are a hard counter for Mesmers.

Many months ago, one could argue that Time Warp and Portal were the big differentiators in bringing mesmers instead of thieves. However, Time Warp lost 50% of its effectiveness and thieves were given their own, personal, invisible Portal, on a much shorter cooldown. Then mesmers were nerfed (Blurred Frenzy, Temporal Curtain, Chaos Armor, etc.).

The upcoming December 10 patches are providing some modest buffs to the Mesmer profession, a huge buff to the thief profession (substantial initiative regen), and a slight nerf to thief vigor. In terms of the ‘viable’ professions listed by the developers (shatter, Mantra and Phantasm), I don’t see any changes substantial enough to differentiate thieves from mesmers.

As of today it appears that the only thing Mesmers uniquely bring is Time Warp.

Perhaps I am missing something. How has ArenaNet not buffed thieves to the point of being the Apex Predator profession that they have been so worried about creating?

Elementalists have more burst than thieves, more AoE boon sharing (elemental attunement/etc.), less mobility, less survivability. Less team utility in general, though.

Mesmers have more burst than thieves (mind wrack blurred frenzy hits 2x harder than backstab+mug if we’re talking burst thief vs shatter mesmer). Less mobility, less team utility, less survivability.

I think thieves bring more to the table overall via blind fields/AoE stealth/mobility/boon stripping (although mesmers can boon strip). I suppose you could call them the apex predator by that standard, but burst Mesmer and burst Elementalist both have their merits.

Also, no real changes are being done to the common burst Elementalist specs. They may move two of our most important traits in the Arcana line from Adept to Master, which would actually be quite a nerf. If they only move one, however, then you won’t notice much of a difference.

Zeon.8239:

Elementalists have more burst than thieves, more AoE boon sharing (elemental attunement/etc.), less mobility, less survivability. Less team utility in general, though.

Mesmers have more burst than thieves (mind wrack blurred frenzy hits 2x harder than backstab+mug if we’re talking burst thief vs shatter mesmer). Less mobility, less team utility, less survivability.

I think thieves bring more to the table overall via blind fields/AoE stealth/mobility/boon stripping (although mesmers can boon strip). I suppose you could call them the apex predator by that standard, but burst Mesmer and burst Elementalist both have their merits.

Also, no real changes are being done to the common burst Elementalist specs. They may move two of our most important traits in the Arcana line from Adept to Master, which would actually be quite a nerf. If they only move one, however, then you won’t notice much of a difference.

I agree on most of your points, except for burst. Thief burst is better than Mesmer burst, and on par with elementalist burst. The worst I’ve ever been Mind Wrack/BF for is about 7k. I’ve been hit by a single backstab for more than that.

They play different roles and don’t have the same counters or purpose on a team.

not sure if serious…thieves will be garbage after patch… besides you forget one simple thing..thieves die really fast, many times people kill them with aoe w/o even realizing they killed the thief

i can’t believe a mesmer is complaining about thieves

thieves don’t necessary have better burst, in fact i saw mes hit as hard as full glass cannons thieves before

yes thieves have better mobility, but running thief not gonna hold/capture any points

mesmers don’t get revelaed debuff…. and changes in next patch are huge nerfs to thieves actually…. stop kickng the dead horse already

Cynz.9437:

not sure if serious…thieves will be garbage after patch… besides you forget one simple thing..thieves die really fast, many times people kill them with aoe w/o even realizing they killed the thief

Bad thieves die really fast. Good thieves hardly die at all.

I’m guessing you play a thief.

Cynz.9437:

thieves don’t necessary have better burst, in fact i saw mes hit as hard as full glass cannons thieves before

Mesmers do not hit as hard as thieves. Before when shatter Mesmers could might stack they hit much harder, but that hasn’t been the case for perhaps 8+ months now.

Cynz.9437:

yes thieves have better mobility, but running thief not gonna hold/capture any points

Not true. Thieves do capture points, as well as contest points.

Cynz.9437:

mesmers don’t get revelaed debuff….

not true.

Cynz.9437:

and changes in next patch are huge nerfs to thieves actually…. stop kickng the dead horse already

This is also not true, but you’ll have to wait to see for yourself.

Re: different roles. I do not believe this is the case. They have the same role. In fact , several top mesmer players switched to thief some time ago.

Backstabs hit glass mesmers for 10k+, add cloak dagger 4k, steal and lightning proc, on a mesmer using berserker ammy, mesmer is down INSTANTLY. That mean’s no time to blink away, no time to even wipe your butt! And it is the backstab builds which are getting buffed.

What mesmers can do is NOTHING in comparison to the burst dps a thief does.

It is without a doubt the theif is the apex predator for our roll.

what.
Mesmers bring alot more reliable damage than thief. Mesmers have huge ranged dps, and only when thief is on the executioner steroid and the heartseeker 25% hp threshold does it have more dps than mesmer. The only reason mesmer doesnt bring portal and IoL is because of the condition meta. The second power builds become viable again you’ll see mesmer bringing those again.

In a power meta, every team would use a mesmer, much more than thieves. Thieves viable burst builds don’t do that much burst damage anymore.

So, bottom line is, thieves don’t have the better burst at all times. Thieves have the best roaming and disengaging abilities because they’re supposed to be the better roamers, and are the squishiest of the classes. Mesmers aren’t roamers.

Roaming-Teamfight-CC-DPS-Bunker-CondiPressure Warrior says: ALL YOUR ROLES ARE BELONGS TO ME.

Scarlett.1549:

Backstabs hit glass mesmers for 10k+, add cloak dagger 4k, steal and lightning proc, on a mesmer using berserker ammy, mesmer is down INSTANTLY. That mean’s no time to blink away, no time to even wipe your butt! And it is the backstab builds which are getting buffed.

What mesmers can do is NOTHING in comparison to the burst dps a thief does.

It is without a doubt the theif is the apex predator for our roll.

Pretty much this. I have been saying it for ages, and it will become even clearer as time goes on and the thieves get this 33% initiative buff; prepare for massive bursts (they already have it with those 8k-10k backstabs followed by 4-5k HS or other spells every 4 seconds) and easy disengages. As we move away from condition builds and bunkers (which both use tanky stats since traits and amulets have toughness and vitality) we will see the raise of these “not-so-hidden” overpowered Power-Burst-disengage-at-will-and-engage-at-will thieves.

I can see it coming miles away, we are power-creeping too much, specially these classes which may appear as “unpopular” to some. Thieves are not as bad as bad players make it seem, they have one of the highest survavility in the game if they can press more than to fingers due two easy access to the highest amount of untargetted teleports and uncounterable stealth, which is only getting buffed next patch.

Like I said previously, backstab needs to be toned down, HS needs to be toned down, thieves need other ways of survival that do not involve grieving matches with stealth. Power creep needs to stop.

Mesmers have a good burst, they don’t even need to know where you are to attack you, just put their clones and get away….
Mesmers have more stealth than thieves and when they are not in stealth they can use their skills to be invul….
Mesmers have portal and can turn someone in a chicken, so let’s recap…

1) Burst ==> Thief is higher, not sustainable, single target and uses initiative, Mesmer is high, can be AoE or single target, sustainable, and depending on build don’t need to press any button. Elementalist is high, AoE , sustainable, create different combo fields and need cooldowns… ( I would say different roles and all can serve well )

2) Habilities to engage/disengage ===> Thief stealth and shadowsteps, Mesmer stealth and blinks.. Elementalist only their high speed, invuls etc…
( I would say thief wins this one )

3) Mobility ===> Thief shadowsteps and bow , Mesmers portal to the entire team , Elementalist speed, skills….
(I would say different also but Elementalist wins cause even with shadowstep thieves are no match to how fast a Elementalist can move on the map )

As for defense, thief is by far the worse, any AoE can burst a thief to the ground, second comes Elementalist with also zero toughness but some invuls, and the best one is Mesmer… Assuming they are all glassy…

So the easy choice would be Mesmer , the risky choice would be thief and Elementalist would stay in the middle, I could agree that elementalists need some love.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Cynz.9437:

not sure if serious…thieves will be garbage after patch… besides you forget one simple thing..thieves die really fast, many times people kill them with aoe w/o even realizing they killed the thief

Bad thieves die really fast. Good thieves hardly die at all.

I’m guessing you play a thief.

Cynz.9437:

thieves don’t necessary have better burst, in fact i saw mes hit as hard as full glass cannons thieves before

Mesmers do not hit as hard as thieves. Before when shatter Mesmers could might stack they hit much harder, but that hasn’t been the case for perhaps 8+ months now.

Cynz.9437:

yes thieves have better mobility, but running thief not gonna hold/capture any points

Not true. Thieves do capture points, as well as contest points.

Cynz.9437:

mesmers don’t get revelaed debuff….

not true.

Cynz.9437:

and changes in next patch are huge nerfs to thieves actually…. stop kickng the dead horse already

This is also not true, but you’ll have to wait to see for yourself.

Re: different roles. I do not believe this is the case. They have the same role. In fact , several top mesmer players switched to thief some time ago.

- then Caed is a bad thief because i saw him dying to stupid crap all the time
- yes i a play a thief and necro mainly
- mesmers do have high burst and they have way better sustained where thief has to sit in the corner wait for ini to come back
- i don’t think you understood my point on running and capturing point: the problem is that moblity and stealth(only survival tools thieves have) both basically require you to leave capture point besides there are quite few classes that can easily kitten on thief given the same player skill
- decoy
- it is easy to see those changes now even…just don’t choose those traits….yes changes on 10th dec are terrible
- just because some mesmers decided to play thief doesn’t mean mesmer has same role as thief… i might be not top player but hey i switched to necro, does it make necro to have same role as thief? please

Wow… people are still QQing about Thief? In November 2013?

Wow.

fodem.2713:

Mesmers have a good burst, they don’t even need to know where you are to attack you, just put their clones and get away….
Mesmers have more stealth than thieves and when they are not in stealth they can use their skills to be invul….
Mesmers have portal and can turn someone in a chicken, so let’s recap…

dude you should think before writing this kind of stuff.
The tpvp meta build is shatter mesmer, so NO mesmer “puts their clones and gets away”. Because you need to shatter, you need to look for los etc etc. Mesmers have more stealth than thieves? What game are you playing? And moa? NO ONE uses moa playing seriously lol

Incurafy.6329:

Wow… people are still QQing about Thief? In November 2013?

Wow.

wow…..thieves are still being blindly biased despite everyone else pointing how OP stealth/backstab is? in November 2013?

Wow

Incurafy.6329:

Sylvari Thief since BWE1 .

Too bad noone of this will work in this “condition-spam-you can’t kill me cause i’m bunker too or sitting in stance” crap meta

So whatever you want to bring as dps just get another condition bunker and it’s fine

…so sad so true

Maybe I am a bad thief, (probably), but in sPVP, Mesmer’s were a difficult target for me to fight. I know there is more to spvp then 1v1 fights, but on the mesmer forum are two pvp videos of mesmer’s crushing backstab thieves with ease.

I made a mesmer because of this class giving me issues, and I enjoy playing it. There is so much about the mesmer that makes them passively strong. Whereas on my thief, I feel like if I make just one minor mistake, I typically end up eating the ground.

Jackal.8263:

Maybe I am a bad thief, (probably), but in sPVP, Mesmer’s were a difficult target for me to fight. I know there is more to spvp then 1v1 fights, but on the mesmer forum are two pvp videos of mesmer’s crushing backstab thieves with ease.

I made a mesmer because of this class giving me issues, and I enjoy playing it. There is so much about the mesmer that makes them passively strong. Whereas on my thief, I feel like if I make just one minor mistake, I typically end up eating the ground.

I main mesmer and when i play d/p other mesmers are not so hard to bring down (Talking bout shatter obviously) fighting mesmers it’s all about knowing how stuff works..if you’re used to them they are not a big problem…if focused mesmers go down…and go down pretty fast..but mesmers are not so good tier in tpvp atm…as i said above you’re more likely going to face heavy condition bunkers…and they MAY go down only if played really really bad and you play really good..otherwise you’re just wasting your time and eventually killing yourself

Please keep the tone civil.

Cynz.9437:

- mesmers do have high burst and they have way better sustained where thief has to sit in the corner wait for ini to come back

Thieves don’t sit in the corner. They enter stealth because it provides more benefit than mechanism in the game: damage avoidance, loss of targeting, initiative regen, health regen, and condition removal – all at once.

This is one of the biggest reasons thieves are so strong and run in the current meta over mesmers and elementalists.

Cynz.9437:

- i don’t think you understood my point on running and capturing point: the problem is that moblity and stealth(only survival tools thieves have) both basically require you to leave capture point besides there are quite few classes that can easily kitten on thief given the same player skill

I understood your point. Thieves are very good at back-capping, as well as being able to take down certain bunker builds. This makes them excellent at solo-capping points. I don’t know if you fully understand the role of a thief in this game. Thieves are roamers/spike DPs. The role of a roamer/spike dps is to support killing opponents and cap points, not hold them. Holding points is the role of the bunker.

Cynz.9437:

- it is easy to see those changes now even…just don’t choose those traits….yes changes on 10th dec are terrible

I disagree, but time will tell. I will revisit this thread by New Year’s and discuss the impact of the thief changes.

Cynz.9437:

- just because some mesmers decided to play thief doesn’t mean mesmer has same role as thief… i might be not top player but hey i switched to necro, does it make necro to have same role as thief? please

Your statement is not accurate and your example is not relevant. I’m referring to people who played Mesmers on tPvP teams. These are people who were on a team that had a specific composition. They played Mesmers to fill a certain role. These players switched from Mesmer (a profession their were very comfortable with) on their teams, to playing a thief on their teams. They still filled the same role. Why did they switch? They switched because they recognized thieves became the apex predator for that role and they wanted their team to have the greatest chances at winning as possible.

you guys want to know whats crazy? dps guards. holy kitten such damage

I don’t know why people rage so much about other classes… Remember that no one is invincible and some classes have advantages and disadvantages compared to others… Just wait for the next update and everything will change again… And remember that someone is gonna kill you no matter what build you do….

Thieves have BY FAR the worst AOE teamfight output and in most cases 1v1 potential. S/D thieves were the only spec that made them more popular than mesmers and eles but that is getting nerfed. Mesmers and eles also have arguably higher burst (Eles DEFINATELY have higher burst). I think d/p theives are actually underpowered right now. Also, you don’t need a burst roamer. THey have not been in the meta for almost 6 months lol. This is a stupid post posted by a mesmer. FYI shadow refuge is easy to counter since u can CC them out or just AOE the squishy thief to death inside of it…

Mesmers are completely OP when it comes to teamfight damage considering the mobility they have as well. Eles can as well have way mroe AOE damage than thieves and they can sustain more damage as well. Burst theives have very little effect on a teamfight. Mesmer’s should really stop complaining. especially with how easy their class is… 90% of damage comes from AI lol!

Demonts.4593:

Mesmers are completely OP when it comes to teamfight damage considering the mobility they have as well. Eles can as well have way mroe AOE damage than thieves and they can sustain more damage as well. Burst theives have very little effect on a teamfight. Mesmer’s should really stop complaining. especially with how easy their class is… 90% of damage comes from AI lol!

mesmer damage doesn’t come from AI lol! most of it comes from shatter lol! maybe you mean phantasms lol! except phantasms are a worse, harder to land version of backstab lol! because no only the cast times are pretty long but the phantasms first stand still before attacking lol!

Thiefs are a natural counter to mesmers.. besides chaos storm mesmers don’t have any other ground target skill except GS#3 which is completely worthtless if you can’t see your target.

Engineers and necros can just spam their bombs/nades/wells/minions and let the thief get owned by it. And if you tell me that all the mesmer has to do is spawn his illusions that they will kill the thief once he pops are just kittened since 1 clusterbomb and they’re all gone, if the thief do the same against a spirit ranger for example, he’s going to get exploded by the pets.

I’m honestly done with spvp till next patch and then we’ll see what kind of balance this brings -__-

ahuba.6430:

mesmer damage doesn’t come from AI lol!

This is so obviously untrue. Even in shatter spec you ideally allow the phantasm to perform 1 attack at least before shattering.

ahuba.6430:

phantasms are a worse, harder to land version of backstab lol!

Yes, because it’s so hard to land a skill that has 1200 range!?!? And this is in comparison backstab which has a range of 130 and doesn’t even prioritize your selected target.

Demonts.4593:

Mesmers are completely OP when it comes to teamfight damage considering the mobility they have as well. Eles can as well have way mroe AOE damage than thieves and they can sustain more damage as well. Burst theives have very little effect on a teamfight. Mesmer’s should really stop complaining. especially with how easy their class is… 90% of damage comes from AI lol!

Your assessment is very inconsistent with the high-end team compositions at the moment.

Bacon.4918:

ahuba.6430:

mesmer damage doesn’t come from AI lol!

This is so obviously untrue. Even in shatter spec you ideally allow the phantasm to perform 1 attack at least before shattering.

ahuba.6430:

phantasms are a worse, harder to land version of backstab lol!

Yes, because it’s so hard to land a skill that has 1200 range!?!? And this is in comparison backstab which has a range of 130 and doesn’t even prioritize your selected target.

i don’t think you know what an AI is. the phantasms are not intelligent, they do the same thing EVERYTIME. They’re just like every other skills, you press a button, damage comes out, except than not only there’s a cast time, but the phantasms themselves have a wind up. they’re like, the easiest things to dodge in this game. If your opponent isn’t a total idiot, they will dodge it, unless you get creative with your burst.
Backstab? You have 3 seconds to position yourself, and you can spam it until it hits, while your enemy can’t see you. It’s like the complete opposite, a very telegraphed skills vs the least telegraphed skill in the game (NOT telegraphed at all).

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Thiefs, Eles and Mesmers need to bury the hatchet…for now.

Instead, united against the Condi meta!
When Condis get towned down, THEN its the time to discuss about the crown of Burst/Roaming.

;)

This isn’t a thief vs mesmer thread, per se. This is a discussion about the viability of professions for a given role in sPvP.

Demonts.4593:

Mesmers are completely OP when it comes to teamfight damage considering the mobility they have as well. Eles can as well have way mroe AOE damage than thieves and they can sustain more damage as well. Burst theives have very little effect on a teamfight. Mesmer’s should really stop complaining. especially with how easy their class is… 90% of damage comes from AI lol!

Watch the ESL finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC1MPUxaYP0

That tells a different story. It’s a mirror match of teams, except one team has a mesmer and the other a thief. The thief completely hard counters the Mesmer. The shoutcasters even comment on how hard a counter that matchup is.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Jonathan Sharp said:

Oh, also, the reason we can’t give Necro’s too much disengage has to do with the point of “purity of purpose”.
In this game, we want to allow classes the ability to deal with all situations but in
different ways. But, if we give all classes all TOOLS (which is a different thing), then
players get confused as to which classes fill which roles, and in what way they fill those roles.
Example: In PvP, the Necro and Engi both vie for the position of condition pressure. The engineer has more physical alternatives, the Necro has more boon/condition manipulation, the Engi has more escapability, and the Necro is a little squishier. If we gave the Necro too much mobility or escapability, then all of a sudden their “tools” start to line up exactly. If this is the case, one of them will simply be better than the other, as far as efficacy goes, and thus, one will push the other out of the meta for that “role” on the team. This class would then be the “apex” predator for that role. So, in order to prevent this, we try to make it so that the classes don’t have all their tools overlap perfectly.

I assert thieves are the current Apex predator for their role.

Mesmers and thieves (and elementalists) all vie for the role of support/burst DPS and roamer. That role requires quick burst damage, high mobility both in and out of combat, and good escape mechanisms. When looking at these roles:
* thieves have the better burst
* thieves have the better mobility both in and out of combat
* thieves have the better escape mechanisms

There are other factors which play into selecting which profession to bring, including: group healing, group buffs, group utility, survivability/tankiness. Neither bring anything substantial to the table in terms of group healing. Mesmers can bring aoe stability, but the range is so limited (240m) it’s hardly useful to the team. Mesmers bring Time Warp which is very useful. The ability for a thief to access stealth so easily gives thieves far better survivability than a mesmer can achieve. In terms of group utility, thieves get Shadow Refuge, which they can use both offensively to zerg strike and defensively to heal. This single thief utility is the functional equivalent of the Mesmer’s Veil, Mass Invisibility, and Illusion of Life, rolled into a single ability, and on a far shorter cooldown…and it’s an AoE heal and a dark combo field.

And, on top of this, thieves are a hard counter for Mesmers.

Many months ago, one could argue that Time Warp and Portal were the big differentiators in bringing mesmers instead of thieves. However, Time Warp lost 50% of its effectiveness and thieves were given their own, personal, invisible Portal, on a much shorter cooldown. Then mesmers were nerfed (Blurred Frenzy, Temporal Curtain, Chaos Armor, etc.).

The upcoming December 10 patches are providing some modest buffs to the Mesmer profession, a huge buff to the thief profession (substantial initiative regen), and a slight nerf to thief vigor. In terms of the ‘viable’ professions listed by the developers (shatter, Mantra and Phantasm), I don’t see any changes substantial enough to differentiate thieves from mesmers.

As of today it appears that the only thing Mesmers uniquely bring is Time Warp.

Perhaps I am missing something. How has ArenaNet not buffed thieves to the point of being the Apex Predator profession that they have been so worried about creating?

I’m sure other people posted it already but you know the initiative changes for thief is pretty much a wash if not a slight nerf don’t you? Sorry but not knowing this shows you’re unqualified to pass judgement on this subject. Mesmer is getting buffed and thief is only seeing nerfs, what are you complaining about again?

Fortus.6175:

Scarlett.1549:

Backstabs hit glass mesmers for 10k+, add cloak dagger 4k, steal and lightning proc, on a mesmer using berserker ammy, mesmer is down INSTANTLY. That mean’s no time to blink away, no time to even wipe your butt! And it is the backstab builds which are getting buffed.

What mesmers can do is NOTHING in comparison to the burst dps a thief does.

It is without a doubt the theif is the apex predator for our roll.

Pretty much this. I have been saying it for ages, and it will become even clearer as time goes on and the thieves get this 33% initiative buff; prepare for massive bursts (they already have it with those 8k-10k backstabs followed by 4-5k HS or other spells every 4 seconds) and easy disengages. As we move away from condition builds and bunkers (which both use tanky stats since traits and amulets have toughness and vitality) we will see the raise of these “not-so-hidden” overpowered Power-Burst-disengage-at-will-and-engage-at-will thieves.

I can see it coming miles away, we are power-creeping too much, specially these classes which may appear as “unpopular” to some. Thieves are not as bad as bad players make it seem, they have one of the highest survavility in the game if they can press more than to fingers due two easy access to the highest amount of untargetted teleports and uncounterable stealth, which is only getting buffed next patch.

Like I said previously, backstab needs to be toned down, HS needs to be toned down, thieves need other ways of survival that do not involve grieving matches with stealth. Power creep needs to stop.

What power-creep? what thief skills do more damage than they did at launch? Backstab? Heartseeker? Mug? Autoattack? Thieves are getting less initiative gain than they used to, how is getting nerfed considered power creep? Learn about the class you’re bashing so hard and people will take you more seriously.

Hype.8032:

I’m sure other people posted it already but you know the initiative changes for thief is pretty much a wash if not a slight nerf don’t you? Sorry but not knowing this shows you’re unqualified to pass judgement on this subject. Mesmer is getting buffed and thief is only seeing nerfs, what are you complaining about again?

This is untrue. Initiative buff is across the board, meaning all thief builds will see the benefit. Only certain builds are getting slightly nerfed.

Also, you assert you know thieves are getting nerfed overall as though it was a fact. However, you do not know this: you are speculating. I don’t believe you are qualified to pass judgement in this matter if you are not sufficiently qualified to differentiate between speculation and fact.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Hype.8032:

I’m sure other people posted it already but you know the initiative changes for thief is pretty much a wash if not a slight nerf don’t you? Sorry but not knowing this shows you’re unqualified to pass judgement on this subject. Mesmer is getting buffed and thief is only seeing nerfs, what are you complaining about again?

This is untrue. Initiative buff is across the board, meaning all thief builds will see the benefit. Only certain builds are getting slightly nerfed.

Also, you assert you know thieves are getting nerfed overall as though it was a fact. However, you do not know this: you are speculating. I don’t believe you are qualified to pass judgement in this matter if you are not sufficiently qualified to differentiate between speculation and fact.

The only builds that are viable now and will be viable after the patch put 30 points into CS. THEREFOR there is no buff to initiative regen due to the big nerf to opportunist. Anyone talking about the initiative changes to thief should know that. There are further nerfs such as the trait that gives 2 initiative on signet use going to 1 and 2 per 10 sec going to 1/10. I am not speculating, you are just not thinking critically.

EDIT: Let’s continue this a bit further. S/D is widely viewed as the most viable thief spec in spvp. S/D is getting nerfed from several different angles: IR cast time, nerf to acro vigor traits, losing trait effectiveness that add initiative (more than makes up for the 33% passive init gain). Ready to follow logic? If S/D is currently the best spec and it is getting nerfed, then thief as a whole is becoming less viable unless another build is coming to replace it. If you can think up a new top thief build I’d be happy to listen to you talk about it.

Hype.8032:

The only builds that are viable now and will be viable after the patch put 30 points into CS. THEREFOR there is no buff to initiative regen due to the big nerf to opportunist. Anyone talking about the initiative changes to thief should know that. There are further nerfs such as the trait that gives 2 initiative on signet use going to 1 and 2 per 10 sec going to 1/10. I am not speculating, you are just not thinking critically.

Simply because you have not theorycrafted a new viable thief build does not imply one will not exist. You must allow for the possibility that your incredible knowledge and foresight into these upcoming changes may not be all-seeing and that viable builds may exist that you have not considered.

Hype.8032:

EDIT: Let’s continue this a bit further. S/D is widely viewed as the most viable thief spec in spvp. S/D is getting nerfed from several different angles: IR cast time, nerf to acro vigor traits, losing trait effectiveness that add initiative (more than makes up for the 33% passive init gain). Ready to follow logic? If S/D is currently the best spec and it is getting nerfed, then thief as a whole is becoming less viable unless another build is coming to replace it. If you can think up a new top thief build I’d be happy to listen to you talk about it.

If your assertion is consistent with ArenaNet’s line of thinking (i.e. thieves are becoming less viable), then that furthers my argument: Thieves are the Apex Predator for their role currently. The December 10th changes are there to alter the state of the game.

I still assert that the upcoming changes are insufficient to disrupt that status.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Hype.8032:

I’m sure other people posted it already but you know the initiative changes for thief is pretty much a wash if not a slight nerf don’t you? Sorry but not knowing this shows you’re unqualified to pass judgement on this subject. Mesmer is getting buffed and thief is only seeing nerfs, what are you complaining about again?

This is untrue. Initiative buff is across the board, meaning all thief builds will see the benefit. Only certain builds are getting slightly nerfed.

Also, you assert you know thieves are getting nerfed overall as though it was a fact. However, you do not know this: you are speculating. I don’t believe you are qualified to pass judgement in this matter if you are not sufficiently qualified to differentiate between speculation and fact.

it is a nerf since crit tree is pretty much mandatory if you wanna do any dmg, so it does affect pretty much every spec except for condi one

+ ini on demand is better than passive ini regen, devs take the choice from player and give them passive regen

meaning instead of actually using mechanics to gain ini when i need it i would have to sit in the corner and wait for it to come back

to translate the nerf to other classes: they basically reduced CD on spells by tiny bit but nerfed every trait that removed CD on spells on demand

just theoretical example: imagine necro would have fear on 20 sec CD, dec 10th would reduce CD to 16 sec however nerf trait, that would have chance to proc off condi tick every 10 sec and remove CD from fear, changing ICD to 45 sec instead of 10 sec

if you call that buff, then idk what to say

Stealth is overpowered . Too many benefits at no cost . Too much of it . Thieves depend on stealth so much that it makes them an eccentric class . Either very OP or useless , it is a fine line . I personally hate how they can reset fights , especially in WvW

Chokolata.1870:

Stealth is overpowered . Too many benefits at no cost . Too much of it . Thieves depend on stealth so much that it makes them an eccentric class . Either very OP or useless , it is a fine line . I personally hate how they can reset fights , especially in WvW

I’m not a fan of stealth either but I’ve got to point out misinformation when I see it. Which stealth skill has no cost? Weapon based skills cost initiative and the heal/utilities have cooldowns. Stealth is a liability in spvp. This is a spvp forum, not wvw. Being built around stealth and not being able to use it while fighting on a point is bad design.