This change will be exploited, it’s obvious. Because you can select you team before the match even begins, or switch teams as the match is in progress, winning players will all coordinate to be on the same team, i.e., they will look at who played best and choose their team based on that; this happens frequently already in hotjoin. They’ll also be able to switch in the middle of a game to go over to the winning team, and so on. This will encourage massive exploitation and unfairness as the system is set-up atm.
Yeah, the autobalance and choosing-your-team thing needs some revision. It’s no fun the way it is right now…
I’m probably a minority in this regard, but I liked the old system for the most part. It could have been revised simply by making sure point defenders would get appropriate scores too, standardizing the rewards for everyone was not a good change.
I didn’t play hotjoins to play the normal t(eam)PvP; it was more like a deathmatch with the normal capture-system being a secondary objective, adding some more depth. I liked running all over the map with slightly selfish builds, not taking things too seriously, skirmishing and trying to get top player rank. Now, your individual skill is barely going to matter, and as such, builds that are out of the current tPvP meta are probably going to be trash for earning rank points. This makes me even more uninterested in playing PvP again, even hotjoins, the only type where I had anything close to fun.
TL;DR:
Hotjoins != tPvP, stop trying to make them the same. If you do, you may as well remove hotjoins.
I’m probably a minority in this regard, but I liked the old system for the most part. It could have been revised simply by making sure point defenders would get appropriate scores too, standardizing the rewards for everyone was not a good change.
I didn’t play hotjoins to play the normal t(eam)PvP; it was more like a deathmatch with the normal capture-system being a secondary objective, adding some more depth. I liked running all over the map with slightly selfish builds, not taking things too seriously, skirmishing and trying to get top player rank. Now, your individual skill is barely going to matter, and as such, builds that are out of the current tPvP meta are probably going to be trash for earning rank points. This makes me even more uninterested in playing PvP again, even hotjoins, the only type where I had anything close to fun.
TL;DR:
Hotjoins != tPvP, stop trying to make them the same. If you do, you may as well remove hotjoins.
I wish they would remove hotjoins… Just have a check mark for “ranked” and unranked, then let the whole pvp community play together. Its good for it so it won’t be so divided. (Try to pair team memebers of either all ranked or all unranked), unranked versus ranked doesn’t matter, as they shouldn’t have much to lose. I think this would solve a lot of issues. Once MMR works better you won’t have to worry so much about nubs ruining your tPvP, and they have to learn anyways. Have it so that you can’t turn on ranked mode until rank 15 or so, then no Ranked players will have to worry about getting paired with them.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Today there were some changes to how glory and rank points are handed out at the end of a match. First off, instead of being based on personal score they are now based on win or loss. Secondly, rewards are now interpolated based on the duration of the match up to a time we have determined to be a little shorter than the typical match.
Laying the Groundwork for New Game Types
There are several reasons for these changes. The biggest reason is to lay the groundwork for new game types and map mechanics. By normalizing rewards we can be much more flexible with map layouts, game types and mechanics. Game modes will need to reward players equally without directing players to one mode or another based on perceived differences in rewards or encouraging players to play a specific way in order to maximize rewards. As an added benefit, we can also begin to be more flexible with Custom Arena settings.
Time interpolation falls into this category as well. If we introduce a mechanic that leaves the potential for the match to be over very quickly, such as regicide, we need to ensure that doesn’t lead to collaboration to farm rewards or encourage players to play this mode simply to maximize their rewards.
Team Based Rewards
The second big reason for this change is that we have seen that certain builds are much more effective at scoring points than other builds. For example, we see that typical bunker builds score lower than all other types of builds because they serve a vital role of point defense. All members of a team should share in the rewards equally. Again, this lays the foundation for new game modes. We don’t want to limit ideas for new modes because it creates one role that is potentially more or less lucrative than another role.
The numbers chosen for the rewards are based on the data we have collected. On average players who earn the most glory earn about 120 glory per match. We therefore set the minimum numbers to be on par with this number and scaled up from there. Along with this change you will see that Solo Arena and Team Arena both reward significantly more glory and rank points for winning. This is both to compensate for the queue times as well as to reward the higher risk that is taken in these areas.
As an added anti-AFK and botting measure players will need to score at least some points to get rewards. The standard AFK detection continues to be in place and players detected as AFK will receive no rewards.
Also, as before, players will continue to earn a small bonus for having the highest score personal score in each of the game stats.
Well done.
Very nice changes here to discourage mindless zerg tagging and encourage playing to win in hot joins.
Still, it doesn’t resolve the issue of hot joins being a complete waste of time unless you happen to be present at the end of a match. Many solo/team queue players play hot join to kill time during long queues and it’s rather unreasonable to give no rewards for this scenario at all.
How about giving players a fraction of the base glory reward (that of loosing a match) every 20 seconds or so for the first 7 minutes of a player’s participation in a match instead of the match end base reward? At the end of the match, add a bonus glory reward for winning, and for top scores for each category. Then I think you’ll have a system that rewards participation fairly while still reasonably discouraging early leaving.
Today there were some changes to how glory and rank points are handed out at the end of a match. First off, instead of being based on personal score they are now based on win or loss. Secondly, rewards are now interpolated based on the duration of the match up to a time we have determined to be a little shorter than the typical match.
Laying the Groundwork for New Game Types
There are several reasons for these changes. The biggest reason is to lay the groundwork for new game types and map mechanics. By normalizing rewards we can be much more flexible with map layouts, game types and mechanics. Game modes will need to reward players equally without directing players to one mode or another based on perceived differences in rewards or encouraging players to play a specific way in order to maximize rewards. As an added benefit, we can also begin to be more flexible with Custom Arena settings.
Time interpolation falls into this category as well. If we introduce a mechanic that leaves the potential for the match to be over very quickly, such as regicide, we need to ensure that doesn’t lead to collaboration to farm rewards or encourage players to play this mode simply to maximize their rewards.
Team Based Rewards
The second big reason for this change is that we have seen that certain builds are much more effective at scoring points than other builds. For example, we see that typical bunker builds score lower than all other types of builds because they serve a vital role of point defense. All members of a team should share in the rewards equally. Again, this lays the foundation for new game modes. We don’t want to limit ideas for new modes because it creates one role that is potentially more or less lucrative than another role.
The numbers chosen for the rewards are based on the data we have collected. On average players who earn the most glory earn about 120 glory per match. We therefore set the minimum numbers to be on par with this number and scaled up from there. Along with this change you will see that Solo Arena and Team Arena both reward significantly more glory and rank points for winning. This is both to compensate for the queue times as well as to reward the higher risk that is taken in these areas.
As an added anti-AFK and botting measure players will need to score at least some points to get rewards. The standard AFK detection continues to be in place and players detected as AFK will receive no rewards.
Also, as before, players will continue to earn a small bonus for having the highest score personal score in each of the game stats.
So now I can join an empty server (or server with few players), and win at (theoretically) 14:99, to gain the most rank points. I’m ok with that.
Still, it doesn’t resolve the issue of hot joins being a complete waste of time unless you happen to be present at the end of a match. Many solo/team queue players play hot join to kill time during long queues and it’s rather unreasonable to give no rewards for this scenario at all.
How about giving players a fraction of the base glory reward (that of loosing a match) every 20 seconds or so for the first 7 minutes of a player’s participation in a match instead of the match end base reward? At the end of the match, add a bonus glory reward for winning, and for top scores for each category. Then I think you’ll have a system that rewards participation fairly while still reasonably discouraging early leaving.
Or how about knowing whether or not the player is leaving by clicking the “Go Now” button, and giving them an early reward (possibly prorated) if they’re leaving because of the tournament queue?
I can almost always know exactly when that queue box is about to pop up, because that’s just when my team is almost certainly going to win.
“It is the stupidest children who are the most childish
and the stupidest grown-ups who are the most grown-up.”
- C. S. Lewis
Nobody will ever reach 80… Get ready for some out manned situations in hotjoins: guilds vs randoms and more zerg fights.
You cannot properly coordinate your side with your friends in hotjoin, though Anet should hurry up and actually make that a reality so casual sPvPers can queue with a few friends without having to fight the seasoned sPvPers in tournaments.
This new setup seems even more tedious than before. At rank 30 it took me 4-6 hours of sPVP time per day 7 days a week to get one rank. So how long is it going to take to gain high level ranks with this new system? 2 weeks? a month? While the old system was indeed broken but it wasn’t because of the zeging it was because of the game type. Only 1 game type
I’m glad I reached rank 40 yesterday
I was averaging 200+ per game and reaching beyond the glory cap of 300 quite frequently
As a primary bunker guard I like this change a lot.
Now you can acctualy pvp without worrying about tagging kills, standing on capture points at kills, play support class in hot join, get points even if you cap a point at start and just hold it for whole match…
You can think about the game instead of how to get most rank points.
Also it is right that you get more points for playing turneys since it takes more time and skill.
The thing needed next are better rewards and rankings based on ladders, but in my opinion this patch today was great for pvp.
Team Based Rewards
The second big reason for this change is that we have seen that certain builds are much more effective at scoring points than other builds. For example, we see that typical bunker builds score lower than all other types of builds because they serve a vital role of point defense. All members of a team should share in the rewards equally. Again, this lays the foundation for new game modes. We don’t want to limit ideas for new modes because it creates one role that is potentially more or less lucrative than another role.
Hopefully you can apply this to the daily. Currently the daily is all about capping points and getting kills. Generally it’s easiest to do that by zergin from point to point and actual defending is pointless. You will usually take longer to bunker your way to a daily than if you just zerg points and kills.
I’m not a big fan of the changes to solo and team arena getting more rewards. They already have the tournament chests, this feels like another case of game design focusing on the carrot and not the experience. If players don’t want to do either of those arenas for whatever reason, why use carrots to herd them there?
Except that a lot of players want the carrot and that is one of the quickest fixes there is without having to dedicate too much time. In any case solo and tournament should have been giving significantly higher rewards. Hot join was meant to be casual.
It’s not a fix, it’s a cynical design decision only focused on numbers. One thing I’ve learned from watching GW2 this last year is that players will do things they find boring and hate just for the carrot. The developers have also learned this and are using carrots to get players to do content and not “fun”.
Well, in the end happened what was expected, skyhammer farming is nerfed, but they won’t touch any exploiters .
Well, if u didn’t exploit the map too bad, next time exploit it as soon as posible!!
“Well, in the end happened what was expected, skyhammer farming is nerfed, but they won’t touch any exploiters .
Well, if u didn’t exploit the map too bad, next time exploit it as soon as posible!!”
^
This…
It is to early to give a final statement on the changes, but I actually like the changes.
Just the fact that exploiters get off without any punishment is rly disappointing.
It might not be as advertised as Solo Queue or new maps were, but I think this is actually the most significant change sPvP had since game release, and I think the devs should exploit it much more.
It might not affect tPvP much, but I believe it can reinvigorate the interest of people in hotjoin greatly (and with that, sPvP in general), since the matches will be getting much more strategic now that circle-capping points 3-4 man at a time and letting them recapped for an optimum glory yield isn’t possible any longer.
Well I had fun 3weeks in spvp reaching R40 tiger finisher but there is NO WAY I would go on to try to get phoenix or dragon it’s completely sick requirements. SICK. I am done with spvp until they increase greatly the ranks points or decrease the requirements to go to level 80 (AND furthermore for all the time I wasted in spvp I gained like almost no gold at all). Going back to wvw, spvp is beyond broken.
Well I had fun 3weeks in spvp reaching R40 tiger finisher but there is NO WAY I would go on to try to get phoenix or dragon it’s completely sick requirements. SICK. I am done with spvp until they increase greatly the ranks points or decrease the requirements to go to level 80 (AND furthermore for all the time I wasted in spvp I gained like almost no gold at all). Going back to wvw, spvp is beyond broken.
They’re totally revising rewards for pvp, it just can’t come soon enough. It’s hurting the pvp population.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
This reminds me of the Halo 3 matchmaking. (Rank ups only on wins)
What I mean is that one very skilled person can “carry” the team do all of the work and is a good player in general but will get a lesser reward because his team loses or sucks.
Modern games have swayed away from a team based win/lose system and added personal rewards (XP rank for kills, titles, unlocks ect.) and it seems like GW2 just took a step backwards in this regard albeit minor but a step back none the less.
There isn’t even a /leech report system in game like GW1 had this will only lead to team hate and AFK players galore it seems.
Team Based Rewards
The second big reason for this change is that we have seen that certain builds are much more effective at scoring points than other builds. For example, we see that typical bunker builds score lower than all other types of builds because they serve a vital role of point defense. All members of a team should share in the rewards equally. Again, this lays the foundation for new game modes. We don’t want to limit ideas for new modes because it creates one role that is potentially more or less lucrative than another role.
Hopefully you can apply this to the daily. Currently the daily is all about capping points and getting kills. Generally it’s easiest to do that by zergin from point to point and actual defending is pointless. You will usually take longer to bunker your way to a daily than if you just zerg points and kills.
I’m not a big fan of the changes to solo and team arena getting more rewards. They already have the tournament chests, this feels like another case of game design focusing on the carrot and not the experience. If players don’t want to do either of those arenas for whatever reason, why use carrots to herd them there?
Except that a lot of players want the carrot and that is one of the quickest fixes there is without having to dedicate too much time. In any case solo and tournament should have been giving significantly higher rewards. Hot join was meant to be casual.
It’s not a fix, it’s a cynical design decision only focused on numbers. One thing I’ve learned from watching GW2 this last year is that players will do things they find boring and hate just for the carrot. The developers have also learned this and are using carrots to get players to do content and not “fun”.
Unless this is your first MMORPG, everything you just said is common in nearly every MMORPG, except possibly the first few years of MMORPGs.
So, this isn’t really new and the reason it exist is because it is known to have worked. Not to get into PvE, but essentially this is what keeps a lot of people playing in PvP, unlocking stuff is what is keeps people playing certain single player game and multi player, not everyone just a lot. this principle can be seen in rank in spvp. Rank servers NO purpose you don’t need it nor does it say anything about you as a player, but how many post do you see people whining about banning skyhammer farmers?
If you want to completely avoid this type of design stick to single player games.
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
The ones who farmed glory in skyhammer for weeks..
Did their rank reset or did they get banned?
Else this update has no effect on the ones that got their rewards and finishers already.
Still waiting for the update that will make the actual pvpers gain more rewards over the ones that exploited in skyhammer..
They mostly nerf “stuff”-gain after some time that others have a bajillion of the “stuff” already making those who farmed sit on bajillions of the “stuff” while making the gap between these farmers/abusers and the new/casual/farmphobic players even wider.
“stuff” = tokens, gold, ectos, karma, and now glory.
“The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes
later. It doesn’t care that I’m there.”
I’m not really happy with this change. For one it’s making things difficult for new comers to go up the ranks, it’s going to be very very difficult indeed. A lot of people might even give up all together. Like many said here if you can choose your team then this is broken from the start. Choosing /changing teams should not be there at all in Hot-Joins and even less if such a system is implemented , period. This is what this system will see, the stronger condition damage characters owning the scene, people will join their team, all a necro needs to do is stand at points and smother ppl with what a necro does best. I tested it today and in almost every case the team having one or two necros won. This isn’t good considering the current set up and should be re-thought to make it a fairer environment for everyone to enjoy pvp. It’s not fun when you know you’ll have to wait 200 yrs before you get that awesome finisher. xD
Game modes will need to reward players equally without directing players to one mode or another based on perceived differences in rewards or encouraging players to play a specific way in order to maximize rewards.
Maybe you should add the philosophy to PvE as well… you know, so champ trains and TP flipping aren’t clearly better than skilled content.
Well I had fun 3weeks in spvp reaching R40 tiger finisher but there is NO WAY I would go on to try to get phoenix or dragon it’s completely sick requirements. SICK. I am done with spvp until they increase greatly the ranks points or decrease the requirements to go to level 80 (AND furthermore for all the time I wasted in spvp I gained like almost no gold at all). Going back to wvw, spvp is beyond broken.
r40 in 3 weeks and you did not get any gold?
You’re done with spvp until they make rank 80 easy? enjoy the long wait, it’s never gonna happen because r80 should not be easy to get.
Has anything changed for 4v5?
Because usually when I end up in a 4-man (or 3-man) team we have a near-zero chance of winning anyway. Since I can’t leave the match or forfeit, why shouldn’t I alt-tab out of GW2 and play something else for the match’s duration?
Attempting to win a 4v5/3v5 is just be a waste of time, and nobody likes having their time wasted.
Wonderful change, just one thing: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make so that every single noob knows about it, because if one is so stupid to play just fore the personal glory, it’s improbable that he’ll be roaming on this forums.
Do you have any information about what changes will happen to the skyhammer exploiters?
Wasn’t it apparent by now, they are not going to ban them. Crying about a useless thing like rank is a waste of energy.
Rank doesn’t get you anything atm and i suspect they are going to do an overhaul of the way rewards are given after the eventual pvp reward system is fixed.
It doesn’t need to be banning or rollbacks..
But with their cool stories about making better pvp rewards they have to keep in mind that they have to reward their pvp players more than the ones that just exploited skyhammer for 2 months..
Great change.
The simple fact that it lays the ground for other modes should be enough, but the scoring system also works better this way for Gw2 PvP.
QUESTION:
The scorecard at the end of the game… will it still show your “performance” based on points?
I think it is still useful to have these metrics/rankings, and perhaps new metrics even:
damage, kills, deaths, caps, healing, damage taken, cond dmg dealt, distance run…
Oh, and please display it for at least 2 minutes so that we have enough time to see it.
i love the change, i hate it when i would support my team and would end up with least points because if it since some roles don’t always get to capture or hold points
Great so now your rank points are tied to the huge amount of mentally challenged players you meet in hot-join.
Up to this point no one cared, you were still able to score high even if the team was not optimal.
With this change only last night I witness a game of lvl 50+ vs lvl 10-15… and who can blaim them? I tried to be the hero who went against them, ended up getting chased by 2 lvl 60 thieves for the entire game (was not fun). -)
I think these changes are good, but not for hot-join. The only way this can work, is if you fix the way auto-balance works, so you don’t get steamrolled non stop (or swapped to losing team).
New hot-join mentality:if you can’t beat them, join them
Players are going spectate mode to force auto-balance then they swap to winning team.
One funny side-effect of this change in hot-joins, a lot of people are rolling bunker guardian for apparently the first time, in hopes of locking down a capture point. Seems most of these new guardians are just beyond terrible, like no idea when to use their skills or how to bunker a point
I’m not sure, can you, umm…. do that again? ROM – 2015
#allisvain
One funny side-effect of this change in hot-joins, a lot of people are rolling bunker guardian for apparently the first time, in hopes of locking down a capture point. Seems most of these new guardians are just beyond terrible, like no idea when to use their skills or how to bunker a point
Guardian/bunker is my main. I always felt forced to spec DPS for hotjoins or just queue for broken solo queues. Finally I can play how I want w/ equal rewards for the team.
At the moment the spvp leveling is like this :
Each ranks are segmented depending on the title you unlock. The progression is exponential : the total amount of ranking points needed to reach level 80 is :
8.971.500 for 80 levels so its an average of 8971500/80= 112143 ranking point /level
If Anet would have made a linear progression in spvp ranking that would be much better.
So let’s take around 100 000 ranking per level. When running a spvp match you can get around 200 ranking point per match per 15minutes on average time so it means to get a level considering the average value per level it will requires you to play 112143/200= 560 games per level each game duration is 15minutes so a 1/4 hours that means you ll need to achieve 560X1/4= an average of 140hours of game play per level.
The analysis is based on the total average time required if you go all the way to 80 I remember you.
140average hours X80 = 11200 hours of game play
In order to get to level 80 in a year so 365 days you would have to play everyday 30hours in a 24hours day long that is not even possible … 11200 hours is 466 full DAYS
??ANET WTF IS THAT ???? (24/7 plays 466days long in order to achieve it => what a freaking huge joke is that?)
You can compare the pve linear experience progression to the spvp one to see how broken is spvp leveling system.
I ll suggest Anet to change the spvp exponential progression for a linear one and reduce by 50% the average ranking points requirement to level up. 50k ranking per level on a linear progression line to 80 is the best way to fix this broken spvp progression mechanism. By the same way double the ranking points incomes per matchs + a daily reward extra ranking point bonus of 5 000 points or more. Then you have a FIX.
Fixing spvp sick requirements shouldn’t takes ages and is not impossible.
Seeing this analysis I doubt anyone found out about this because this should have been since start the best reason and subject for players to complain about.
My last word will be about this: I really don’t understand how a company can pay some programmers in order to design some game contents (finishers) unlockable after 3years of game play for 1% of the game population: it’s like designing a product that you expect noone to be able to afford it. This has no sense specially for a game. On a trade point of view you are not creating any value nor incomes going this way.
Anet can bring the grind spirit to a new level…… Sick sick sick…
I invite anyone who feel that this game design need to be FIX as soon as possible to post here and comment about the numbers you read.
Anet you need to tone down HARD the spvp leveling requirements and implement a linear progression this is beyond broken. Stop fake fixes that avoid the real long term issue of this game mode progression that I explain up here.
The sad thing is that there are people out there who would spend their entire lives (ALL their free time) for two years straight to get a meaningless Level 80 PvP “title” in a game…just to feel they had achieved something special. And then feel that they had more worth.
Yes, they DID do something unusual: they wasted an entire two years of their life pressing buttons on a keyboard repeatedly to put in time in hotjoin.
The Alien (condi necro),That Wreckin Crew (Mesmer)
Silentshoes (Thief), Wind of the Woods (condi ranger)
I’m pretty new to the whole rank/glory system but have been really enjoying PvP. I am rank 21 and looking at this update made me want to learn more about the reward system.
I won a few games today and noticed I gained 250-300 rank points. Is that more or less than before the patch or what?
I’m finding it very difficult to be motivated if your team is clearly going to lose. Before I could still gain rank by playing well, but if it’s 400 to 100, there isn’t much point in doing anything but afk. I still play to the end because I don’t like to quit, but it’s disheartening and it feels like a chore to play PvP anymore.
good update even though i dont play hotjoin, ithink it force players to play different roles and also try to win, instead of zerging around mindless try to get most points. now every one will share the glory and promotes team play.
Pacific Islander Legion [NoyP]
Black Gate
Ruthless Legend
To clear things up, below you’ll find a list of the glory/rank points you earn in each queue. These numbers include the bouncy-chest bonus you get after you load out of the match.
Custom Arena / Hotjoin
Win: 200
Loss: 125
Solo Queue
Win: 400
Loss: 150
Team Queue:
Win: 500
Loss: 175
Being auto-balanced provides you with an additional 25 glory, and each top-stat you earn gives you another 5.
You can also use a Glory Booster to get even more glory (650 in a tournament win, for example), but those do not apply to rank points, which is why I excluded those numbers.
.
