Guild Wars 2

I think Mesmers at the moment need a little bit of tweaking on their mechanics. I’m not asking for an out right nerf to the whole profession, but perhaps some tapering down of the inherent OPness. IMO, they’re more OP than a Druid or DH. They have access to invuln, evades, teleports, stealth, moa, and they’re currently the only profession that can carry low Ranked players into higher tiers.

I think a good way to balance Mesmers is to add some after-cast animations to their clone skills. It’s already hard when a Mesmer turns into a 4 man army in an instant. Adding in a 1 or 2 second post-cast pause would allow for some counter play. Another way to balance Mesmers is to reduce the toughness of clones. When conjuring a clone out of thin air, you’re just making an additional illusion of yourself. Illusions should not have any HP because they’re not real, and should disappear after 1 hit. Like swatting a puff of smoke from the campfire. And remove Moa. That skill is bad juju.

- Dont let Continuum Split affect Elites
- Nerf the shield #4 (just make it a single block over 3secs duration like war shield, the additional phantasm on both blocks that slows enemies plus gives alacrity is too op), also the #5 needs to be tuned down a bit (double stun, quickness, damage, missile block, combo field PLUS cooldown reduce is too much imo)

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

If you understood Mesmer, you’d know the broader problems with this issue, and why your suggestions aren’t really helpful.

There’s a recent thread on the mes forum that goes into a lot of what you’re raising.

As Chrono is currently designed, it’s the only thing holding Mesmer up at the moment. It does need redesign, but it can’t happen without a complete overhaul of the post HoT GW2, or a dramatic redesign of mesmer, clone and phantasm functionality. Atleast for the pvp arena.

Lukas.7159:

- Dont let Continuum Split affect Elites
- Nerf the shield #4 (just make it a single block over 3secs duration like war shield, the additional phantasm on both blocks that slows enemies plus gives alacrity is too op), also the #5 needs to be tuned down a bit (double stun, quickness, damage, missile block, combo field PLUS cooldown reduce is too much imo)

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

Agree. Good ideas.

Ross Biddle.2367:

If you understood Mesmer, you’d know the broader problems with this issue, and why your suggestions aren’t really helpful.

There’s a recent thread on the mes forum that goes into a lot of what you’re raising.

As Chrono is currently designed, it’s the only thing holding Mesmer up at the moment. It does need redesign, but it can’t happen without a complete overhaul of the post HoT GW2, or a dramatic redesign of mesmer, clone and phantasm functionality. Atleast for the pvp arena.

Pretty much most professions right now tbh.

HoT created more problems by trying to cover symptoms and cover too many weaknesses. All of the content needs a tone-down to allow for the reworks the game’s core elements and then re-designing gimmicky or broken elite mechanics afterwards.

But even hoping for change is waste at this point methinks. There’s very clearly zero intent to fix it.

Godkitten , how much more do you wanna nerf chrono? When will you people be happy?

Idk if this one is by design or perhaps I’m just being delusional, though I’ll embrace any possible feedback but what currently holding back mesmer right now is/was (power or condi) their ability to inflict condition on shatter while dodging/evaded their raw damage but still went thru. Intended? Who knows.
Other than that I see no problem on their intended concept and design in which make them fun to play.

Lukas.7159:

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

See, this is the kind of short sighted change you should expect out of these sorts of threads.

Sword is a base weapon, non-HoT, and untied to Chronomancer. Nerfing blurred frenzy is a MAJOR nerf to all Core mesmer specs, all future non-chronomancer mesmer specs, and all power based chronomancer specs, all of which are unviable in the current HoT Meta climate.

You see sword and think it’s CD is to low. But that’s based purely on a broader build that has a plathora of defensive options, creating a difficult enemy to fight. This is true of all Elite specs. To many defensive options, to much evade, to much block, to much healing, to much to much to much. This sort of change is what leads to an overnerf.

Get better at balancing, honestly.

Chapell.1346:

Idk if this one is by design or perhaps I’m just being delusional, though I’ll embrace any possible feedback but what currently holding back mesmer right now is/was (power or condi) their ability to inflict condition on shatter while dodging/evaded their raw damage but still went thru. Intended? Who knows.
Other than that I see no problem on their intended concept and design in which make them fun to play.

*All of the old Mesmer problems persist once you drop the Chrono line.

• Mesmer: Slow with no reliable access to swiftness
• Chrono: base 25% movement speed increase

• Mesmer: Tied to Deceptive Evasion (and the dueling line) for clone generation (along with the Illusions line for CD reductions)
• Chrono: Illusionary Reversion + Chrono Phantasma, + alacrity for CD reductions

• Mesmer: Shattered clones move to slow, die to AoE. Die quickly to AoE generally speaking, especially in glassy power builds (which was the best way to spec)
• Chrono: Shattered clones have superspeed to get to their target. Shattering also generate new clones (IR, CP), witch restores their HP’s. Those clones also get superspeed on the subsequent shatters, and on and on and on.

• Mesmer: Poor condi cleanse, particularly in builds optomised to the only viable role (power shatter). Inspiration line alleviates this but at a major cost to either damage (making it an unviable burst), or functionality (giving up dom, dueling, or chaos just for condi cleansing in Insp).
• Chrono: Amazing synergy with Inspiration line. Csplit allows for doubling (or trippling) of shatters which = more condi cleanse, especially in the post HoT condi spam world.

• Mesmer: No AoE, poor team fight presence, Zero on point sustain. Relies on kiting, stealth, and repositioning. Stealth unreliable with newly introduced revealed skills (rev/Engie etc).
• Chrono: Requires NO stealth. Has sustain, defenses, and AoE tools to make a dramatic impact in team fights etc.

• Mesmer: Food for power Rev’s and Daredevils, not to mention anything with range (like the millions of LB DH’s out there who hit like nukes on AA)
• Chrono: HoT level tools to help level the playing field some

and that’s just off the top of my head.

Those aren’t really problems, though. Those are tradeoffs by far and large like most other professions should have. Swiftness is also fixed for OH focus as it now stacks with other sources. Mobility’s just crazy power-creeped at the moment so not having 25%+ is a death sentence in most cases.

DE is hardly needed for clone generation if you play your weapon skills right and shatter/generate appropriately. It only suffers in PvE but that’s a mechanical problem with clones themselves and the mesmer is a mess in PvE anyways due to innate burst on MW.

Core mesmer’s condition cleansing > core thief’s.

Shatters AoE, GS line-cleaves with no DR, and sword has normal cleave hits. Again, this is another HoT problem where you’ve got everything cleaving for no reason.

It never needed the defenses in the core game, either; this is an HoT problem and not one exclusive to the core mesmer. Distortion + BF are solid weapon skills with uptime similar to core-game blocks on other weapon skills/profession mechanics.

The broken dynamic of mesmer is that it’s too strong if it sees buffs in its baseline fighting abilities due to Moa and Portal but otherwise is too weak or is limited to just being a Moa/Portal bot. In PvE its because its design features innate burst and its damage sources are killable as intended while most PvE encounters involve lots of cleave, therefore reducing its effective damage output without massive group support. You can’t raise its regular DPS substantially, though, because then it wouldn’t need to use clones as resources and could spam distortion while dealing major weapon damage, or its clones would just make it passive by letting it AA or do nothing and deal tons of damage. Its like of support in core builds also leaves it with no subsequent role in optimized groups. And that’s also a problem with raids having DPS checks.

Chrono, like Druid, Daredevil, and Scrapper, give the professions an excess of bonuses at next to no opportunity costs and make their respective core professions impossible to balance.

That was truly a Masterpiece indeed. also in addition; while currently having troubled against this scenario and since forum is the only transparency that i can rely into, in regards on offhand pistol and their weapon five skill called Magic Bullet that we all know/knew its so magical, does this said mention skill intended to defy Line of Sighting aswell?
Thanks for clarification in advance.

Chapell.1346:

That was truly a Masterpiece indeed. also in addition; while currently having troubled against this scenario and since forum is the only transparency that i can rely into, in regards on offhand pistol and their weapon five skill called Magic Bullet that we all know/knew its so magical, does this said mention skill intended to defy Line of Sighting aswell?
Thanks for clarification in advance.

Magic bullet needs Line of sight (it’s a projectile and can be destroyed/blocked/reflected aswell). The bounce doesn’t need LoS (from the Mesmer), but that’s irrelevant.

@DecieverX

Actually Core mesmer does have a lot of problems, including pre-HoT. These are design problems, or flaws. That’s why only certain types of skills could be utalized in the way they were, and why there weren’t many viable specs. Arguably outside of power shatter in a +1 roaming role, there weren’t any viable builds (depending on game mode of course).

Generally speaking you do make a well reasoned response but it misses the point. Take for example you pointing out that shatters are AoE, which of course they are. Same with sword AA. But neither of these functioned in the way anyone regarded as “AoE” back in the day. We simply compare them to a warrior cleaving in a team fight with an axe or GS, or a staff ele’s genuine AoE capabilities. Necro wells. Even a D/D ele going through his maped out rotations. Mesmer did not have AoE unless you were unfortunate enough to be standing next to his singled out burst target. After that don’t worry about his sword AA, he’s disengaging to prepare for his next burst.

Or, mobility solved with focus? Please. Could Mesmer afford to drop torch for that? or were you meaning GS? Reduction in stealth = Dead Mesmer. No GS? No burst. Or maybe double ranged was your thing, but GL exchanging the survivability of staff for the swiftness of focus. Let’s be real when we’re talking about core mesmer, particularly in the past, and the problems (or as you reduced it to- payoffs) it faces.

Chrono does need nerfing, along with all HoT introductions. But with that Mesmer needs reworking, and/or redesign, particularly in the “payoff” areas, and including clone functionality and mechanic. This is known.

I’ll just let Ross take care of this thread for the most part

Lukas.7159:

- Dont let Continuum Split affect Elites
- Nerf the shield #4 (just make it a single block over 3secs duration like war shield, the additional phantasm on both blocks that slows enemies plus gives alacrity is too op), also the #5 needs to be tuned down a bit (double stun, quickness, damage, missile block, combo field PLUS cooldown reduce is too much imo)

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

CS should definitely affect elites. As it is its easy enough to dodge/interrupt moa, having a 3 min CD on it is simply bullkitten. Either CS should continue affecting elites, or all of Moa’s nerfs since HoT dropped should be reverted. Including the duration reduction from 10 to 6 seconds.

Shield 4 phantasm summon can be blocked, and if the chrono doesn’t actually block an attack with Shield 4 thenthey don’t get to use it again. I don’t say this much but this is L2P

Shield 5 only reduces its own CD, nothing else. And its original CD was balanced around this expected 10 second reduction. Is the skill strong? Yea, its a good skill. But with all of the much more overpowered crap in HoT I find it strange that this is what you focus on. It could be toned down, but so can almost everything introduced with HoT. That’s a pretty general statement that applies to nearly every elite spec skill. So, again, not sure why you singled out ToT.

BF is fine. It leaves the mesmer stationary, and is just a blur. Retaliation procs 8 times if you can put it up when mesmer uses BF and isn’t paying attention. And since it leaves the mesmer stationary, any competent player should be moving out of range, making the applied damage pretty low. Its in a pretty good spot balancewise.

OriOri.8724:

I’ll just let Ross take care of this thread for the most part

Lukas.7159:

- Dont let Continuum Split affect Elites
- Nerf the shield #4 (just make it a single block over 3secs duration like war shield, the additional phantasm on both blocks that slows enemies plus gives alacrity is too op), also the #5 needs to be tuned down a bit (double stun, quickness, damage, missile block, combo field PLUS cooldown reduce is too much imo)

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

BF is fine. It leaves the mesmer stationary, and is just a blur. Retaliation procs 8 times if you can put it up when mesmer uses BF and isn’t paying attention. And since it leaves the mesmer stationary, any competent player should be moving out of range, making the applied damage pretty low. Its in a pretty good spot balancewise.

We can also compare it to Unrelenting Assault on Rev (another HoT introduction) which IS OP by design for various reasons. BF is a standard. Which is how we know kitten like UA is OP as kitten

Honestly think all classes are at a good spot balance wise this meta. They all provide for some form of counterplay.

If your call out is X class being too strong, then all classes are equally strong. If X class needs a nerf then all classes needs a nerf. All these came as a package in HoT. Every class had a buff in the form of their elite specs.

These classes are merely fulfilling their individual roles in PvP. Instead of crying nerf, L2P and choose ur fights wisely. If you lost a fight ur meant to lose from a class vs class perspective, then ur meant to lose anyway. If ur meant to win and u lose due to player skill issues then suck it up and get good instead of crying OP.

Balian.5314:

Honestly think all classes are at a good spot balance wise this meta. They all provide for some form of counterplay.

If your call out is X class being too strong, then all classes are equally strong. If X class needs a nerf then all classes needs a nerf. All these came as a package in HoT. Every class had a buff in the form of their elite specs.

These classes are merely fulfilling their individual roles in PvP. Instead of crying nerf, L2P and choose ur fights wisely. If you lost a fight ur meant to lose from a class vs class perspective, then ur meant to lose anyway. If ur meant to win and u lose due to player skill issues then suck it up and get good instead of crying OP.

Balance-wise, the nuclear kitten nals of the worlds super powers relative to their prospective world views and personal levels of self imposed responsibly is quite balanced. That doesn’t make nukes good or justify their existence in collective humanities best interests!

There is a functioning META currently. The game is still in a terrible state when you look seriously at the issues. The devil is in the details. Be honest if nothing else.

Balian.5314:

Honestly think all classes are at a good spot balance wise this meta. They all provide for some form of counterplay.

If your call out is X class being too strong, then all classes are equally strong. If X class needs a nerf then all classes needs a nerf. All these came as a package in HoT. Every class had a buff in the form of their elite specs.

These classes are merely fulfilling their individual roles in PvP. Instead of crying nerf, L2P and choose ur fights wisely. If you lost a fight ur meant to lose from a class vs class perspective, then ur meant to lose anyway. If ur meant to win and u lose due to player skill issues then suck it up and get good instead of crying OP.

A lot of people are calling for all classes to be nerfed, well at the least for all elite specs to be nerfed.

The only thing i would nerf right now is
1. CS shouldn’t affect ult
2. clones should stop running at 300% speed otherwise it makes dodging shatter pointless

Mesmers have been continually nerfed for a while now. I’ve only met about 2 mes in PvP who can play the class very well. The rest I’ve come into contact with are pretty average. Seriously mes in general is not a very strong class, but people who get confused by clones/phats will die if they can’t figure who the real one is. I think the strongest classes right now are DH and warrior.

Btw mes is my main.

Cynz.9437:

The only thing i would nerf right now is
1. CS shouldn’t affect ult
2. clones should stop running at 300% speed otherwise it makes dodging shatter pointless

Good suggestions. Well said. Need more than that though. Reduced evade frame on blurred frenzy makes sense too.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Balian.5314:

Honestly think all classes are at a good spot balance wise this meta. They all provide for some form of counterplay.

If your call out is X class being too strong, then all classes are equally strong. If X class needs a nerf then all classes needs a nerf. All these came as a package in HoT. Every class had a buff in the form of their elite specs.

These classes are merely fulfilling their individual roles in PvP. Instead of crying nerf, L2P and choose ur fights wisely. If you lost a fight ur meant to lose from a class vs class perspective, then ur meant to lose anyway. If ur meant to win and u lose due to player skill issues then suck it up and get good instead of crying OP.

Balance-wise, the nuclear kitten nals of the worlds super powers relative to their prospective world views and personal levels of self imposed responsibly is quite balanced. That doesn’t make nukes good or justify their existence in collective humanities best interests!

There is a functioning META currently. The game is still in a terrible state when you look seriously at the issues. The devil is in the details. Be honest if nothing else.

Perhaps it’s a matter of perspective.

My perspective of ‘balance’ here would mean making X class in line with the others, using other classes as a benchmark.

Imo, balance does not equate to re-designing X class and it’s skills based on personal standards.

If you noticed, I’ve indirectly proposed for all elite specs to be balanced out vs core specs.

Perhaps it’s due to the fact that I solo roam and duel a lot in WvW as well. From a WvW roaming standpoint I do not think mesmers are that strong, due to their inability to effectively finish off opponents kiting them. In PvP however, people are forced to fight within point often, thus being more susceptible to a mesmer’s shatters which is their main source of damage post HoT.

My saying that the classes are currently balanced out in this meta is simply because I view it as ‘rock, paper, scissors’. Every class has its strengths and weaknesses which provides for counterplay. Ultimately it boils down to engaging fights in a position that benefits you, whichever class you are playing, in whichever game mode.

Balian.5314:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Balian.5314:

Honestly think all classes are at a good spot balance wise this meta. They all provide for some form of counterplay.

If your call out is X class being too strong, then all classes are equally strong. If X class needs a nerf then all classes needs a nerf. All these came as a package in HoT. Every class had a buff in the form of their elite specs.

These classes are merely fulfilling their individual roles in PvP. Instead of crying nerf, L2P and choose ur fights wisely. If you lost a fight ur meant to lose from a class vs class perspective, then ur meant to lose anyway. If ur meant to win and u lose due to player skill issues then suck it up and get good instead of crying OP.

Balance-wise, the nuclear kitten nals of the worlds super powers relative to their prospective world views and personal levels of self imposed responsibly is quite balanced. That doesn’t make nukes good or justify their existence in collective humanities best interests!

There is a functioning META currently. The game is still in a terrible state when you look seriously at the issues. The devil is in the details. Be honest if nothing else.

Perhaps it’s a matter of perspective.

My perspective of ‘balance’ here would mean making X class in line with the others, using other classes as a benchmark.

Imo, balance does not equate to re-designing X class and it’s skills based on personal standards.

If you noticed, I’ve indirectly proposed for all elite specs to be balanced out vs core specs.

Perhaps it’s due to the fact that I solo roam and duel a lot in WvW as well. From a WvW roaming standpoint I do not think mesmers are that strong, due to their inability to effectively finish off opponents kiting them. In PvP however, people are forced to fight within point often, thus being more susceptible to a mesmer’s shatters which is their main source of damage post HoT.

My saying that the classes are currently balanced out in this meta is simply because I view it as ‘rock, paper, scissors’. Every class has its strengths and weaknesses which provides for counterplay. Ultimately it boils down to engaging fights in a position that benefits you, whichever class you are playing, in whichever game mode.

Here is a visual representation of HoT Elite specs. I don’t know what meta you’re playing

BTW, you speak really well and I enjoy reading your view

‘’ They have access to invuln, evades, teleports, stealth, moa, and they’re currently the only profession that can carry low Ranked players into higher tiers.’’

1. Mesmer does not use stealth.

2. The best class for climbing lower ranks is warrior

3. If you’re a good player, carrying lower ranks to higher ranks is easy. The only class which has difficulty carrying is elementalist because it’s a support (guess what, it’s pretty hard carrying as soraka in league of legends low ranks too)

People are literally just shifting the goalpost of ‘’everything but me is to blame for my failure’’ all the time. It’s gone through the following stages:

Placement matches decide everything (debunked)
Legend players only duo (debunked)
Legend players would never maintain their winprec in Bronze (debunked9
Legend players would never maintain their winprec in Gold upwards (debunked)
Current argument
Legend players can only climb lower ranks using mesmer (debunked, obindo is currently in gold climbing from a bottom tier warrior account with the same winratio I had)

If people are interested in how mesmer is seen as a meta class by good players:

It’s considered a ’’meta’’ build but also seen as the hardest to pilot. Top players are not clamoring for nerfs for it any longer since it loses 1v1 to every single meta build but necro on the top end, has the worst 2v2 MU in the game and is now suspectible to thief roams.

I find it interesting that you people complain about mesmer when in my experience climbing I literally only lost games when I had other mesmers on my team and I definitely found them to be the weakest enemies and allies to have. Definitely curious.

SMH. I main a mesmer. Are we even playing the same game?

It has one viable build.

“Only class that can carry”… because one of the best players in the world posted a video using a mesmer to carry one game where his opponents consistently attacked through confusion?!

How many times do you see teams of 3+ mesmers in ranked PvP right now?

It’s practically hard countered by DH and stalemates at best with engis and druids and eles (assuming the players have some skill). The only good match ups are vs. necro and rev.

If you can’t spot the real mesmer among their illusions you need to pay more attention. Clones already have very low hp and deal almost no damage. If it wasn’t for traiting superspeed they would never make it through AoE. Plus, you can dodge the shatters. You can also block or dodge the phantasm procs.

If you take away Moa from mesmers, which has practically been done in a series of nerfs, the latest of which makes it only hit opponents in front of the mesmer and gave it a hugely obvious tell during casting, you need to take it from Engineers too. Signet of Humility can be blocked or dodged and has a 180 second cool down.

Shield 4 was just nerfed last patched by increasing cool down.

Sword 2, aka Blurred Frenzy, is a good skill, but the mesmer CANNOT MOVE while it is in use. They can’t even turn around. It doesn’t make them invuln either.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Balian.5314:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Balian.5314:

Honestly think all classes are at a good spot balance wise this meta. They all provide for some form of counterplay.

If your call out is X class being too strong, then all classes are equally strong. If X class needs a nerf then all classes needs a nerf. All these came as a package in HoT. Every class had a buff in the form of their elite specs.

These classes are merely fulfilling their individual roles in PvP. Instead of crying nerf, L2P and choose ur fights wisely. If you lost a fight ur meant to lose from a class vs class perspective, then ur meant to lose anyway. If ur meant to win and u lose due to player skill issues then suck it up and get good instead of crying OP.

Balance-wise, the nuclear kitten nals of the worlds super powers relative to their prospective world views and personal levels of self imposed responsibly is quite balanced. That doesn’t make nukes good or justify their existence in collective humanities best interests!

There is a functioning META currently. The game is still in a terrible state when you look seriously at the issues. The devil is in the details. Be honest if nothing else.

Perhaps it’s a matter of perspective.

My perspective of ‘balance’ here would mean making X class in line with the others, using other classes as a benchmark.

Imo, balance does not equate to re-designing X class and it’s skills based on personal standards.

If you noticed, I’ve indirectly proposed for all elite specs to be balanced out vs core specs.

Perhaps it’s due to the fact that I solo roam and duel a lot in WvW as well. From a WvW roaming standpoint I do not think mesmers are that strong, due to their inability to effectively finish off opponents kiting them. In PvP however, people are forced to fight within point often, thus being more susceptible to a mesmer’s shatters which is their main source of damage post HoT.

My saying that the classes are currently balanced out in this meta is simply because I view it as ‘rock, paper, scissors’. Every class has its strengths and weaknesses which provides for counterplay. Ultimately it boils down to engaging fights in a position that benefits you, whichever class you are playing, in whichever game mode.

Here is a visual representation of HoT Elite specs. I don’t know what meta you’re playing

BTW, you speak really well and I enjoy reading your view

Aww~ how cute~

Appreciate the effort.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

The only thing i would nerf right now is
1. CS shouldn’t affect ult
2. clones should stop running at 300% speed otherwise it makes dodging shatter pointless

Good suggestions. Well said. Need more than that though. Reduced evade frame on blurred frenzy makes sense too.

This is the one of the worst suggestions for mesmer. BF is a core mesmer skill, not a chrono skill.

Was gonna say, if damage prevention uptime is the problem, BF doesn’t need tweaking. Either Shield or CS does.

BF does fairly low damage unless heavily-traited, but that build is at best a 1v1 build and relies on core mesmer for the most part since it can’t afford chronomancer.

First thing they should do is change confusion to not deal damage/sec in pvp.

BF should not be touched at all. If anything it could still do with a damage buff or reduction in number of hits (with more damage per hit) to help with retal.

Everything is in excess post HoT, but Chrono is on par with all the other overperforming elite specs of nearly every class.

So many clamours for nerfing in here which are either way off the mark, shortsighted or unnecessary/irrelevant. Fortunately Ross has it covered; I don’t have to add more than that.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

The only thing i would nerf right now is
1. CS shouldn’t affect ult
2. clones should stop running at 300% speed otherwise it makes dodging shatter pointless

Good suggestions. Well said. Need more than that though. Reduced evade frame on blurred frenzy makes sense too.

I don’t agree. I think HoT specs should be gradually nerfed to core spec levels and core shouldn’t get touched until then. BF was never an issue.

@OP guess what, game is not about balance…. and btw for sure there is another class that have a gimmick build that will put the mesmer on check.

find a better gimmick than the one ur playing thats the only way to balance mesmers.

Cynz.9437:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

The only thing i would nerf right now is
1. CS shouldn’t affect ult
2. clones should stop running at 300% speed otherwise it makes dodging shatter pointless

Good suggestions. Well said. Need more than that though. Reduced evade frame on blurred frenzy makes sense too.

I don’t agree. I think HoT specs should be gradually nerfed to core spec levels and core shouldn’t get touched until then. BF was never an issue.

This is the best thing that could happen balancewise for the game. Elite specs need to be toned down across the board.

Ross Biddle.2367:

OriOri.8724:

I’ll just let Ross take care of this thread for the most part

Lukas.7159:

- Dont let Continuum Split affect Elites
- Nerf the shield #4 (just make it a single block over 3secs duration like war shield, the additional phantasm on both blocks that slows enemies plus gives alacrity is too op), also the #5 needs to be tuned down a bit (double stun, quickness, damage, missile block, combo field PLUS cooldown reduce is too much imo)

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

BF is fine. It leaves the mesmer stationary, and is just a blur. Retaliation procs 8 times if you can put it up when mesmer uses BF and isn’t paying attention. And since it leaves the mesmer stationary, any competent player should be moving out of range, making the applied damage pretty low. Its in a pretty good spot balancewise.

We can also compare it to Unrelenting Assault on Rev (another HoT introduction) which IS OP by design for various reasons. BF is a standard. Which is how we know kitten like UA is OP as kitten

Haha UA is OP? Procs confusion each hit and long precast and unreliable damage outside of 1v1? Plz your biases are showing. I’d happily trade.

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Ross Biddle.2367:

OriOri.8724:

I’ll just let Ross take care of this thread for the most part

Lukas.7159:

- Dont let Continuum Split affect Elites
- Nerf the shield #4 (just make it a single block over 3secs duration like war shield, the additional phantasm on both blocks that slows enemies plus gives alacrity is too op), also the #5 needs to be tuned down a bit (double stun, quickness, damage, missile block, combo field PLUS cooldown reduce is too much imo)

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

BF is fine. It leaves the mesmer stationary, and is just a blur. Retaliation procs 8 times if you can put it up when mesmer uses BF and isn’t paying attention. And since it leaves the mesmer stationary, any competent player should be moving out of range, making the applied damage pretty low. Its in a pretty good spot balancewise.

We can also compare it to Unrelenting Assault on Rev (another HoT introduction) which IS OP by design for various reasons. BF is a standard. Which is how we know kitten like UA is OP as kitten

Haha UA is OP? Procs confusion each hit and long precast and unreliable damage outside of 1v1? Plz your biases are showing. I’d happily trade.

Read what Ross wrote. UA is OP by design. Its a skill that does damage, evades, and ties you to your target for the duration of the skill, making it impossible for them to just walk away from it (like they can with BF), gives you might, and has an initial range of 450. That’s an OP design for a skill.

Just because it has counters (confusion, retal) and has been nerfed doesn’t mean that the design of the skill isn’t OP. And honestly, with how much their skills have been nerfed, I’m surprised anyone still thinks that Rev wasn’t OP by design. The design of their skills was so OP that they have been continuously nerfed, and nerfed hard. How is that not telling of a flawed design?

I have truly seen it all now…lol…

It’s threads like this and ppl like OP that ruin this game with never ending cries for nerfs based more on L2P issues than anything else.

There isn’t much to be said that others haven’t already, but nerfing Mesmers any further would obviously and completely take them out of the meta. Luckily Anet realizes this, which was obvious from the recent remarks.

They need a ton of buffs to power shatter builds before you can make any minor adjustments to the one viable build they have left currently.

Also, I’m pretty sure many Mesmers would gladly give up Moa and/or CS in exchange for a competitive power build that is viable without these one-trick-pony gimmicks on a long CD.

Worst thread I’ve seen in awhile, grats OP!

Doesn’t the OP main necro?

OriOri.8724:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Ross Biddle.2367:

OriOri.8724:

I’ll just let Ross take care of this thread for the most part

Lukas.7159:

- Dont let Continuum Split affect Elites
- Nerf the shield #4 (just make it a single block over 3secs duration like war shield, the additional phantasm on both blocks that slows enemies plus gives alacrity is too op), also the #5 needs to be tuned down a bit (double stun, quickness, damage, missile block, combo field PLUS cooldown reduce is too much imo)

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

BF is fine. It leaves the mesmer stationary, and is just a blur. Retaliation procs 8 times if you can put it up when mesmer uses BF and isn’t paying attention. And since it leaves the mesmer stationary, any competent player should be moving out of range, making the applied damage pretty low. Its in a pretty good spot balancewise.

We can also compare it to Unrelenting Assault on Rev (another HoT introduction) which IS OP by design for various reasons. BF is a standard. Which is how we know kitten like UA is OP as kitten

Haha UA is OP? Procs confusion each hit and long precast and unreliable damage outside of 1v1? Plz your biases are showing. I’d happily trade.

Read what Ross wrote. UA is OP by design. Its a skill that does damage, evades, and ties you to your target for the duration of the skill, making it impossible for them to just walk away from it (like they can with BF), gives you might, and has an initial range of 450. That’s an OP design for a skill.

Just because it has counters (confusion, retal) and has been nerfed doesn’t mean that the design of the skill isn’t OP. And honestly, with how much their skills have been nerfed, I’m surprised anyone still thinks that Rev wasn’t OP by design. The design of their skills was so OP that they have been continuously nerfed, and nerfed hard. How is that not telling of a flawed design?

Right. L2p

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Ross Biddle.2367:

OriOri.8724:

I’ll just let Ross take care of this thread for the most part

Lukas.7159:

- Dont let Continuum Split affect Elites
- Nerf the shield #4 (just make it a single block over 3secs duration like war shield, the additional phantasm on both blocks that slows enemies plus gives alacrity is too op), also the #5 needs to be tuned down a bit (double stun, quickness, damage, missile block, combo field PLUS cooldown reduce is too much imo)

- give blurred frency a higher cd, reduce the damage output OR the evasion time; its a 2,5 second evade on a 12sec short cd that actually does good damage

BF is fine. It leaves the mesmer stationary, and is just a blur. Retaliation procs 8 times if you can put it up when mesmer uses BF and isn’t paying attention. And since it leaves the mesmer stationary, any competent player should be moving out of range, making the applied damage pretty low. Its in a pretty good spot balancewise.

We can also compare it to Unrelenting Assault on Rev (another HoT introduction) which IS OP by design for various reasons. BF is a standard. Which is how we know kitten like UA is OP as kitten

Haha UA is OP? Procs confusion each hit and long precast and unreliable damage outside of 1v1? Plz your biases are showing. I’d happily trade.

Oriori owned this one but I’ll fully acknowledge my bias. I have an extremely strong bias toward over powered features, such as UA, and HoT release Rev in general. We’re fortunate it’s been nerfed off the scene (though it’s still being played to good effect, let’s be honest) since otherwise we’d have to continue to face it’s OP’ness in abundance in every game.

You got me, I have a bias. It’s a good bias to have.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Illusions should not have any HP because they’re not real, and should disappear after 1 hit. Like swatting a puff of smoke from the campfire. And remove Moa. That skill is bad juju.

I think this sums up every unknowledgeable opinion of (and every bad argument against) mesmers on this forum pretty neatly

Ross/OriOri have stated things very well with respect to both Chrono and core Mesmer issues across the board! i think Chrono is in a precarious spot, another nerf could make the entire profession unplayable in sPvP (number of Mesmers are down significantly – i am usually the only 1 on both teams in most of my matches this season), but so could another buff depending on it’s nature and magnitude. i have my bias too – can’t seem to give up Mesmer no matter how many nerfs they undergo, i will endure and try and find a viable way to play Mesmer because i enjoy the profession. so i have an ardent interest in trying to keep Mesmer fun and playable.
having stated that, i do not think elite specs will ever be brought down to core levels for one reason: Anet is trying to make money. if elite and core specs were entirely commensurate then there is no real motivation to spend money on HoT; possibly the Pve/story mode, but would that it be enough to make HoT sell? like i stated earlier, i enjoy the profession more than all the others (have 2 Chrono(s) and 1 of all the other elites so i have tried everything else and still stay on Mesmer), but does that mean i don’t think things could be better? no, there’s always room for improvement! my only dilemma as a player is what would i change if i could, and how would those changes effect how Mesmer interacts with the rest of GW2, especially sPvP which i enjoy? it’s a tough call for devs imho, so i am trying not to complain to much.

SteepledHat.1345:

Godkitten , how much more do you wanna nerf chrono? When will you people be happy?

Well, we still had regular nerf mesmer threads in the pre-hot+pre-hot-traitrework meta where mesmer was utter and complete garbage, so the answer to that question is ‘never’.

Fay.2357:

SteepledHat.1345:

Godkitten , how much more do you wanna nerf chrono? When will you people be happy?

Well, we still had regular nerf mesmer threads in the pre-hot+pre-hot-traitrework meta where mesmer was utter and complete garbage, so the answer to that question is ‘never’.

Granted, the condition build is kinda busted, though it’s no fault of the mesmer itself really, but rather more generic problems (confusion DoT, etc.)

It suffers the same problems as thief; really busted OP elements surrounded in a shell of effective uselessness that cause the entire profession to hinge on poorly-designed if not very powerful things.

Though one could say that’s a lot of the game at the moment now with elites and the subsequent iterative nerfing the core specs keep getting/buffing of just stupid/cheesy builds.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chapell.1346:

That was truly a Masterpiece indeed. also in addition; while currently having troubled against this scenario and since forum is the only transparency that i can rely into, in regards on offhand pistol and their weapon five skill called Magic Bullet that we all know/knew its so magical, does this said mention skill intended to defy Line of Sighting aswell?
Thanks for clarification in advance.

Magic bullet needs Line of sight (it’s a projectile and can be destroyed/blocked/reflected aswell). The bounce doesn’t need LoS (from the Mesmer), but that’s irrelevant.

Appreciate the respond, now that clarity has been made; i am excited and cannot wait to play my main against masterpiece.

To be fair, it’s not only Mesmers that need a serious nerf – almost all classes do.
But yes, double-Moa, double shield 5 (each with double stun, double quickness), double shield 4, double or triple shatters…it’s a no-no.

Can’t the balance team look at this spamming mess and think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not how PvP should be?

Bio Flame.4276:

To be fair, it’s not only Mesmers that need a serious nerf – almost all classes do.
But yes, double-Moa, double shield 5 (each with double stun, double quickness), double shield 4, double or triple shatters…it’s a no-no.

Can’t the balance team look at this spamming mess and think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not how PvP should be?

Even if you get hit by a double Moa (which should almost never happen anyway. There’s almost no point in using CS for Moa if you are just going to use it again right away and take the 3 min CD in the first place), you are still Moa’ed for less time than you used to be with the skill, and its harder for us to hit you with now because its more telling, and we can no longer hit people behind us. When will people grow the kitten up and quit whining about this skill? Its not overpowered, its been nerfed plenty.

Shield 4 can only be used again if it actually blocks an attack. So, make sure it doesn’t block any attack and suddenly they can only use it once, not to mention that you can dodge the phantasm summon regardless.

OriOri.8724:

Bio Flame.4276:

To be fair, it’s not only Mesmers that need a serious nerf – almost all classes do.
But yes, double-Moa, double shield 5 (each with double stun, double quickness), double shield 4, double or triple shatters…it’s a no-no.

Can’t the balance team look at this spamming mess and think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not how PvP should be?

Even if you get hit by a double Moa (which should almost never happen anyway. There’s almost no point in using CS for Moa if you are just going to use it again right away and take the 3 min CD in the first place), you are still Moa’ed for less time than you used to be with the skill, and its harder for us to hit you with now because its more telling, and we can no longer hit people behind us. When will people grow the kitten up and quit whining about this skill? Its not overpowered, its been nerfed plenty.

Shield 4 can only be used again if it actually blocks an attack. So, make sure it doesn’t block any attack and suddenly they can only use it once, not to mention that you can dodge the phantasm summon regardless.

Bio Flames overall point is valid. CS as a mechanic does add to the excess of skill and effect spam in the game. Before HoT the game was far cleaner. Simpler in some ways, sure, but hardly the mess of skill effects we have now.

Everything the Boss Ross said.

OriOri.8724:

Bio Flame.4276:

To be fair, it’s not only Mesmers that need a serious nerf – almost all classes do.
But yes, double-Moa, double shield 5 (each with double stun, double quickness), double shield 4, double or triple shatters…it’s a no-no.

Can’t the balance team look at this spamming mess and think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not how PvP should be?

Even if you get hit by a double Moa (which should almost never happen anyway. There’s almost no point in using CS for Moa if you are just going to use it again right away and take the 3 min CD in the first place), you are still Moa’ed for less time than you used to be with the skill, and its harder for us to hit you with now because its more telling, and we can no longer hit people behind us. When will people grow the kitten up and quit whining about this skill? Its not overpowered, its been nerfed plenty.

Shield 4 can only be used again if it actually blocks an attack. So, make sure it doesn’t block any attack and suddenly they can only use it once, not to mention that you can dodge the phantasm summon regardless.

Are you trying to argue that it’s tougher to hit a non-Moa’ed player than a Moa’ed one?
I mean, if you do, you might as well say that Moa is a bad skill for the Mesmer to use

But my point was that CS allows for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much spam for way too little investment.
It promotes and rewards spamming.
And spammy games usually are bad games and this is why you should care about this issue.

Holy kitten, yes I hate mesmers too when played correctly but I’m also tired of the constant crying to “nerf everything I don’t like”. It’s getting pretty kittening annoying and it really starts to remind me of Destiny’s PvP which has always been kind of a kittenhole, kinda like here with devs overnerfing/overbuffing whatever garbage they see on the forums. Like people right now bringing up UA being OP, wtf? Wow rofl, guys you should reread what you write before posting it.

And almost everyone keeps forgetting that low risk/high reward is the no brainer clue to balance. Example right now is DH and Warrior, their easy of use is almost unreal, and even thief (inb4 ninjas triggered). It should always be low risk/low reward, high risk/high reward.

Bio Flame.4276:

OriOri.8724:

Bio Flame.4276:

To be fair, it’s not only Mesmers that need a serious nerf – almost all classes do.
But yes, double-Moa, double shield 5 (each with double stun, double quickness), double shield 4, double or triple shatters…it’s a no-no.

Can’t the balance team look at this spamming mess and think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not how PvP should be?

Even if you get hit by a double Moa (which should almost never happen anyway. There’s almost no point in using CS for Moa if you are just going to use it again right away and take the 3 min CD in the first place), you are still Moa’ed for less time than you used to be with the skill, and its harder for us to hit you with now because its more telling, and we can no longer hit people behind us. When will people grow the kitten up and quit whining about this skill? Its not overpowered, its been nerfed plenty.

Shield 4 can only be used again if it actually blocks an attack. So, make sure it doesn’t block any attack and suddenly they can only use it once, not to mention that you can dodge the phantasm summon regardless.

Are you trying to argue that it’s tougher to hit a non-Moa’ed player than a Moa’ed one?
I mean, if you do, you might as well say that Moa is a bad skill for the Mesmer to use

But my point was that CS allows for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much spam for way too little investment.
It promotes and rewards spamming.
And spammy games usually are bad games and this is why you should care about this issue.

No, read it again. I said that its harder than ever to land moa on someone. The tell was made more obvious and we can no longer cast it on someone behind us. CS is very powerful and does allow for a bunch of spam. I don’t know how to bring it in line yet, but it should still affect elites. Our core elites are simply not good enough to be on 3 min CDs (this is a problem for most core elites imo. Most of them should have their CDs lowered substantially). 1 fairly substantial nerf to condi chrono in regards to CS would be to have it not affect shatters, but I don’t think that is the best way to address it. Another possible way to bring it in line would be to have it completely destroy any illusions used in its shatters. Make it so that chronophantasma and IR don’t work with CS. This still allows for shatter spam, but lowers the amount of illusions that are coming at you from a condi shatter bomb. Again though, I’m not sure if this is a good change for the skill or not.