Guild Wars 2

Preface
I want to play my guardian in PvP. But it sucks. Not because the profession is poorly designed designed, but because the PvP stat system is terrible. Guardians are low HP, so they need vitality. They’re also predominately melee and don’t have strong mitigation or escapes, so they need some toughness. In order to deal decent damage, it needs quite a bit of power as well as precision and ferocity. Healing power also wouldn’t hurt. That’s 5-6 stats in unequal quantities. No amulet comes anywhere close. Even bunker guard is weak because it can’t obtain a decent mix of vitality and toughness.

Problem Statement
The all-or-nothing PvP amulet is a major detriment to PvP. It significantly limits build diversity, which causes “meta” builds which have no strong counters. Further, the limitation in build diversity discourages PvE and WvW players from taking part in PvP because they can’t play a similar build or playstyle in PvP.

The current amulet system even looks ridiculous. An amulet with 900 ferocity, but 0 precision? No one wants 1200 or even 900 toughness with 0 extra vitality either. You’re only viable in the current system if you can offset the deficiencies of the current amulet system. For Berserker/Marauder, you need to have decent base HP and tons of escapes, evades, or immunity to damage. That’s why you really only see Thief, Mesmer, and sometimes warrior using these amulets. Celestial offers a decent stat balance, but the power is sorely lacking. If you can easily and quickly stack might (d/d ele), you’re able to offset the low power and deal decent damage. Having access to bonus conditions or copious amounts of burning just makes it stronger. Soldier lacks in precision, so you need high fury uptime or another crit source (e.g. Death Perception) to deal respectable damage and keep up pressure.

That leaves many builds which rely on a healthy combination of 5-6 raw stats out to dry. Guardian is the biggest loser, though elementalist isn’t far behind. Damage builds with less escapes would love a few hundred toughness so that they don’t die so quickly to stealth burst.

Solution
The solution is relatively simple: split the current PvP amulet into multiple items. Since ~300 stat points is where you start to a see a difference, I would recommend a split of 40/30/30%. For a 3-stat amulet, 30% would be 360/270/270. It’s a one-time UI change for ANet to make, so there’s not much overhead. In addition, if the 30% item was a ring, artwork exists for a lot of them from the old jewels, saving artist time. Unlock cost can be split and if you’ve unlocked an amulet already, it can unlock both or ANet can refund the gold like they did with Minstrel amulet.

This is NOT difficult to understand. Players mix-and-match stats across many more items in PvE and PvP in this game and in many other similar games. PvP entry is gated for new players, so they’ll have some exposure to the PvE system before setting foot in Heart of the Mists. The biggest hurdle for new players in the PvP interface is finding the “PvP Build” button.

Balance Implications
The most common mistake is to see three choice in place of one and instantly claim it’s too hard to balance because it adds too many permutations. This view is flawed. Instead of viewing it simply as permutations, it needs to be evaluated as a trade space. The total number of stats you have never changes and the extremes are already bounded (the current amulets). Gimmick builds typically reside at the extremes, not in between. And because you’re using the current stat combinations, you won’t see the problem that Minstrel amulet presented.

The only balance problems that will arise are new builds which previously weren’t viable coming into the mix and providing counters to the limited number of current viable builds. This is a good problem to have. For example, you could now have a wider variety of DPS with staying power. These can help counter bruisers by providing enough sustained damage while similarly being hardy enough to stay in a fight. DPS builds won’t be forced out by stealth burst (thieves and mesmers).

TLDR
Current PvP stat system is too rigid and limits builds. Split amulet into multiple items, which allows players to mix-and-match. It’s not a balance problem to do this.

+10000000. This game needs a multi-item stat system for real build diversity. So many builds are dead in the water right now because there’s no way for them to get the 200-400 vitality or toughness they need to survive in the current meta without completely destroying their offensive capabilities.

Exedore.6320:

Preface
I want to play my guardian in PvP. But it sucks. Not because the profession is poorly designed designed, but because the PvP stat system is terrible. Guardians are low HP, so they need vitality. They’re also predominately melee and don’t have strong mitigation or escapes, so they need some toughness. In order to deal decent damage, it needs quite a bit of power as well as precision and ferocity. Healing power also wouldn’t hurt.

I have answer for you. Celestial, fury and some might.

u serious?
all spvp games now have 2x guardian dh on each side.

and guardians played always with that hp ( cause have invul, reset invul, block, healing block, aegis, healing meditations, vigor, etc ).

if you really have issues playing a guardian into pug spvp, just try a necromancer or try learn to play how to survive with it. You are not a squishy chara dude.

Theologus.7085:

I have answer for you. Celestial, fury and some might.

Guardians have very little access to might stacking, and most of it sacrifices other powerful traits for much weaker ones. It’s nowhere near what a d/d ele can do. Even necromancers are better at it.

Shirlias.8104:

u serious?
all spvp games now have 2x guardian dh on each side.

Dragonhunter was way overbuffed between BWE3 and HoT release. Even then, it dies quickly when focused due to the same reasons I outlined above. How do you think it will be once it’s more balanced?

and guardians played always with that hp ( cause have invul, reset invul, block, healing block, aegis, healing meditations, vigor, etc ).

Not true at all.

Before stats were split from traits, bunker guardians had +300 vitality from trait lines which gave them a reasonable amount of HP. In the same system, medi guards had +300 toughness, which gave them some staying power in a fight. And before the jewel was removed from amulets, bunker guardians used an HP jewel like barbarian in a cleric amulet, which also boosted their crit chance for vigor procs.

Guardians were much better in older systems. Bunker guard is almost non-existent now because its HP is too low to survive burst. Medi guard lacks staying power in a fight. Both of these would be fixed by overhauling the PvP amulet system.

There already was such spvp system iirc. Stats was splitted between amulet and jewel. Anet decided to merge them (idk why, mb forum qq too).

Mak.2657:

There already was such spvp system iirc. Stats was splitted between amulet and jewel. Anet decided to merge them (idk why, mb forum qq too).

The only reason I ever saw was that it was “too hard for new players to understand”.

This is not just for bunker guardian, this is good for all build diversity and for balancing the meta by the players for the players.

Actually, anet try to balance things out, but each time they do, they kill build diversity.

People QQ because they got a counter build, anet nerf the counter. No more people can change the meta, since it’s not possible to build for that anymore.

That stat system (that you propose) is nice, but not nice enough.

With almost 8K games played, I want to have the same stat system than PVE and WvW. Let the players balance the meta through comp.

OP, I know you ask this for bunker guard, but this is true for most support role for all classes. Support actually is only good with Celestial amulet and this need to changes. We want the flexibility that the CORE game have with ITEMS.

Weapon, Armor, Trinket STAT for ALL.

But… give us SAVE and LOAD build, so we can change it on the fly and work those over time.

3 years of wasted resources to balances another STATs system is not acceptable. Just give us SAVE AND LOAD template build.

Jourdelune.7456:

This is not just for bunker guardian, this is good for all build diversity and for balancing the meta by the players for the players.

Actually, anet try to balance things out, but each time they do, they kill build diversity.

People QQ because they got a counter build, anet nerf the counter. No more people can change the meta, since it’s not possible to build for that anymore.

That stat system (that you propose) is nice, but not nice enough.

With almost 8K games played, I want to have the same stat system than PVE and WvW. Let the players balance the meta through comp.

OP, I know you ask this for bunker guard, but this is true for most support role for all classes. Support actually is only good with Celestial amulet and this need to changes. We want the flexibility that the CORE game have with ITEMS.

Weapon, Armor, Trinket STAT for ALL.

But… give us SAVE and LOAD build, so we can change it on the fly and work those over time.

3 years of wasted resources to balances another STATs system is not acceptable. Just give us SAVE AND LOAD template build.

you do remember people coming into the game were getting crushed? They add the giant amulet, jewels and mix and matching runes and new players coming into the game got turned off because they were getting smoked.

The game right now is made for simple builds and roles for people to have a place. PvP is now about timing, team play, attacking the right player, and awareness.

Back to the topic, i dont know what you really want here.

Guardian has so many roles it can play with dps medi, dps dh, bunker guard and burn guard. All of these builds have flaws and upside which is how it should be. Crying over the perfect build is not good for PvP. Everyone on this forum wants perfection for there class and im sorry but no you shouldnt be carried while your eating ice cream and playing on your iphone. Seriously not everyone can fedor emelianenko and no one should in a 5 vs conquest.

“I want to play my guardian in PvP. But it sucks”
Seriously?

It’s impossible to balance customized stat distributions. The limited stats available in sPvP exist to promote healthy and skillful game play. E.g., Dire Stats allow for super tankiness with very high condition damage. These don’t belong in competitive play since they have no weakness. Anyone who’s even remotely decent at PvP will find a way to make the many runes, sigils, and stat distributions on amulets work very well.

Kharr.5746:

It’s impossible to balance customized stat distributions. The limited stats available in sPvP exist to promote healthy and skillful game play. E.g., Dire Stats allow for super tankiness with very high condition damage. These don’t belong in competitive play since they have no weakness.

Seriously? Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO I’ve ever played that doesn’t allow some level of stat customization.

I understand the concerns with total freedom of stats. But the amulet system is simply punishing. There numberous builds that are prevented from being viable simply because there isn’t a amulet with the correct stats for that build.

Crinn.7864:

Kharr.5746:

It’s impossible to balance customized stat distributions. The limited stats available in sPvP exist to promote healthy and skillful game play. E.g., Dire Stats allow for super tankiness with very high condition damage. These don’t belong in competitive play since they have no weakness.

Seriously? Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO I’ve ever played that doesn’t allow some level of stat customization.

I understand the concerns with total freedom of stats. But the amulet system is simply punishing. There numberous builds that are prevented from being viable simply because there isn’t a amulet with the correct stats for that build.

The many runes and sigils allow for plenty of customization regarding stats. You can make pretty much anything work if you spend the time looking through them.

Totally agree with OP. Would allow many more counter builds. It’s not impossible to balance, many games do it.

Agree that we need more build diversity. At least bring gems for amulets back.

…totally disagree that Guardians are bad though. They have a ton of really great builds, and don’t even get me started on that elite. Currently it’s all but unanimously the strongest proff/elite in the game.

Kharr.5746:

Crinn.7864:

Kharr.5746:

It’s impossible to balance customized stat distributions. The limited stats available in sPvP exist to promote healthy and skillful game play. E.g., Dire Stats allow for super tankiness with very high condition damage. These don’t belong in competitive play since they have no weakness.

Seriously? Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO I’ve ever played that doesn’t allow some level of stat customization.

I understand the concerns with total freedom of stats. But the amulet system is simply punishing. There numberous builds that are prevented from being viable simply because there isn’t a amulet with the correct stats for that build.

The many runes and sigils allow for plenty of customization regarding stats. You can make pretty much anything work if you spend the time looking through them.

sigils aren’t stats. Runes provide too little stat to mean much.

I seriously miss SWTOR’s secondary/tertiary stat system. It was balanced and it provided real customization. I miss having a stat system that required a brain to use.

Jackalrat.5493:

Agree that we need more build diversity. At least bring gems for amulets back.

…totally disagree that Guardians are bad though. They have a ton of really great builds, and don’t even get me started on that elite. Currently it’s all but unanimously the strongest proff/elite in the game.

By “a ton of great builds” you mean burn guard and DH only. Bunker guard is out of meta.
the reason guardians bring up stat customization is because of how punishing playing a melee class with the lowest health tier is. It’s the same issue thieves have.
Hell the only reason Bunker Guard is out of meta is because of the lack of vit, tough, and Healing Power amulets.

no. just learn to play the kitten game.

El Psy Congroo.7965:

“I want to play my guardian in PvP. But it sucks”
Seriously?

The only option for guardian now is going DH and abusing how overbuffed virtues and traps became after BWE3. Good players can avoid that, and they the overbuffed DH stuff will eventually be rolled back.

Medi guard that isn’t DH is dead and has been for a while. Burn guard is easy to counter for players who know it’s coming. Bunker guard is dead because its HP pool is too low (in particular, I’m highlighting this). Forget any kind of hybrid build.

Kharr.5746:

It’s impossible to balance customized stat distributions.

Far from it. Read my post.

The limited stats available in sPvP exist to promote healthy and skillful game play. E.g., Dire Stats

Not asking for stats which don’t already exist in PvP. Just let us mix-and-match the ones which do. You can’t get Dire out of any of those combinations.

The many runes and sigils allow for plenty of customization regarding stats. You can make pretty much anything work if you spend the time looking through them.

No, you can’t. Bunker guard is dead, not because it’s weak, but because it can’t obtain a proper stat mix to survive burst and sustained damage while still bringing support.

And this isn’t just about guardian. Offensive builds have trouble too. For example, s/f fresh air elementalist (non-tempest) was limited because it couldn’t get vitality and toughness while still having a reasonable crit chance and power. If it could pick up a few hundred toughness, it could survive stealth burst. There’s a huge gap between marauder and soldier. Most want more than 10% crit chance, but don’t need 50%. They’d rather have some toughness instead.

Crinn.7864:

Jackalrat.5493:

Agree that we need more build diversity. At least bring gems for amulets back.

…totally disagree that Guardians are bad though. They have a ton of really great builds, and don’t even get me started on that elite. Currently it’s all but unanimously the strongest proff/elite in the game.

By “a ton of great builds” you mean burn guard and DH only. Bunker guard is out of meta.
the reason guardians bring up stat customization is because of how punishing playing a melee class with the lowest health tier is. It’s the same issue thieves have.
Hell the only reason Bunker Guard is out of meta is because of the lack of vit, tough, and Healing Power amulets.

You mean settlers?

I still run shout bunker guardian and in my last 3 matches ive won all 3 of them with a score of 500-100 in solo queing. All of you are talking out a ******** since skill game play is about timing and not smashing for face against the key board.

Why do you have to have everything?

Guardian has a 2 builds and work fine, warrior has 1 build period. Guardian has a burst burn build which ORNG were using in ESL tournaments so dont throw any crap about it. Trap guardians are ruling the dumb in solo que atm.

Hey dodo builds if you see a Dh range im and bring stability, i know i know dont let me tell you what to run since your build has to be perfect if you want to play a game since you dont want to die and you want to be able to kill everyone else.

kdaddy.5431:

You mean settlers?

Settler’s is a inferior version of Cleric’s as far as bunkers are concerned. It still has zero vit.

I still run shout bunker guardian and in my last 3 matches ive won all 3 of them with a score of 500-100 in solo queing. All of you are talking out a ******** since skill game play is about timing and not smashing for face against the key board.

3 matches? You’ll need a much much larger sample size.

Guardian has a 2 builds and work fine, warrior has 1 build period. Guardian has a burst burn build which ORNG were using in ESL tournaments so dont throw any crap about it. Trap guardians are ruling the dumb in solo que atm.

I already named both Burn Guard and DH in my post, I don’t see where you’re going.

hi hi Exedore,

you know i would support this.

but the reds says no, and all of this will be in vain.

: (

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

but the reds says no, and all of this will be in vain.

Why do they say “no”? I haven’t see any reason other than “it’s too hard for new players to understand.”

Crinn.7864:

kdaddy.5431:

You mean settlers?

Settler’s is a inferior version of Cleric’s as far as bunkers are concerned. It still has zero vit.

I still run shout bunker guardian and in my last 3 matches ive won all 3 of them with a score of 500-100 in solo queing. All of you are talking out a ******** since skill game play is about timing and not smashing for face against the key board.

3 matches? You’ll need a much much larger sample size.

Guardian has a 2 builds and work fine, warrior has 1 build period. Guardian has a burst burn build which ORNG were using in ESL tournaments so dont throw any crap about it. Trap guardians are ruling the dumb in solo que atm.

I already named both Burn Guard and DH in my post, I don’t see where you’re going.

My point was guardians have multiple roles on a team for non competitive play especially.

Is bunker guardian as good as a staff ele tempest or druid, no but it better then any other bunker. GS medi is still better for bursts then 50% of the other classes. DH is already pushing certain type of thieves out of play.

I understand you want more variety but the very first 2 sentences of this topic is crazy and the support its getting is ludicrous. Are there some bad ammys, yes and some runes for that matter but to sit here and say guardians need this and that to stay in the meta when classes like warrior, mesmers and rangers have been all but dead for 2 years.

Guardians and thieves were the 2 classes you could put on a team and have success witht eh OP Ele and OP Engy for such a long time. Even now you are seeing multiple guardians being used across Ag/Esl tournaments from EU and NA. To say its not meta is one thing and another to say builds arent viable.

It is not about guardian for me. Although balancing would be an issue, different stat combinations could bring a little help to build variety. I am terribly bored to see same builds with different names. For my part, I mix and match builds, styles… etc. But with differnet stat combinations we can be more… free? kitten talent tree and utility skill system is already enough limitating for my taste.

Exedore.6320:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

but the reds says no, and all of this will be in vain.

Why do they say “no”? I haven’t see any reason other than “it’s too hard for new players to understand.”

well personally, i think the “too hard for new players to understand” excuse is just bull kitten.

and sorry i used wrong words, i dun think they really said “no” but more like they never bothered to say anything after the official statement ""too hard for new players to understand" even though in reality it is not hard for new players to understand.

gear stats in pve is way more hard for new players to understand.

Crinn.7864:

Kharr.5746:

It’s impossible to balance customized stat distributions. The limited stats available in sPvP exist to promote healthy and skillful game play. E.g., Dire Stats allow for super tankiness with very high condition damage. These don’t belong in competitive play since they have no weakness.

Seriously? Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO I’ve ever played that doesn’t allow some level of stat customization.

I understand the concerns with total freedom of stats. But the amulet system is simply punishing. There numberous builds that are prevented from being viable simply because there isn’t a amulet with the correct stats for that build.

and which mmos is it that you’ve played that allowed for “some level of stat customization”, since we have that here as well through amulet, sigils, runes, weaponchoices, traitlines. What is it that these other mmos are offering? WoW? That game has less customization, put pvp gear on and you’re a go.

Look up the Gw2 CEO and you will understand everything.

nacario.9417:

and which mmos is it that you’ve played that allowed for “some level of stat customization”, since we have that here as well through amulet, sigils, runes, weaponchoices, traitlines. What is it that these other mmos are offering? WoW? That game has less customization, put pvp gear on and you’re a go.

I was thinking SW:TOR with it’s mod system, where each piece of gear has three changeable slots, the only limitation being that the armoring mod slot only has mainstat and endurance(vitality) in some ratio, the second mod slot only has mainstat, endur, and a secondary stat in some ratio, and the third mod slot can only have secondary and tertiary stats in some ratio.

Weapon choices, sigils, and traitlines are not stat choices, they are simply the spec choices seen in typical MMOs. The difference being GW2 is far less mechanically in depth since there is no rotational mechanics.