PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: azera.2890

azera.2890

Now, this isn’t a thread dedicated to bring the game down by whining, this thread is made so Anet’s staff can see PvP from a player’s perspective.

As I’ve mentioned in a post before, I play the Elementalist, and I’m good, like really good, at least compared to what I play versus.

How do I know this? Well, for starters, I almost never lose a 1v1, I have an 87% win ratio in tournaments in a 180 games with the majority being played with PuGs, I always end up on top in public games and I just know that, compared to others, I’m good.

The problem, though, is that I don’t really FEEL good, not individually, or by my own standards. Why? Because I rarely ever fully understand the fight.

Say I’m fighting a thief, a pretty good one for that, what do I do? I kite him and use my standard rotation, I very rarely act situationally because I have a very little understanding of what’s going on. I know that most fanboys will come on here and say “Noob” because I don’t keep a track of every ability animation.

I kite them, I do the standard burst combo, I stay alive and I use my abilities in the right order and at the right time, yet this is all hunches and guesses. I don’t understand what I’m doing for the most part.

The reason to this is the big cluster kitten that is animations. It really annoys me and it’s SO hard to understand what’s going on in a team fight with 40 minions on each side and such blurry spell animations.

Compared to WoW (I hate to do that) it feels like sorting out needles out of haystacks. Think about it, say we use Mist Form when the enemy is about to do a devastating spell on me, such as Death Coil in WoTLK, how the hell do I see this in this big, major chaotic battle? In WoW, these animations were so simple and distinguished. Death Coil was a big green ball flying towards you, you saw it and you knew you had to Ice Block it. Same goes for PvE in this game, the bosses have such subtle animations, it’s not even funny.

If you want to make this game an E-sport, I really suggest you make things a lot more clear and visceral.

(edited by azera.2890)

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Skolops.2604

Skolops.2604

Agreed. I’ve complained about CC and burst damage a lot on these forums, but I’m willing to put that aside for the time being and I recognize that not everybody agrees.

What it seems that most everyone does agree on is that the overall “clarity” or organization, for lack of better terms, in PvP is really setting this game back by leaps and bounds, and the two biggest culprits seem to be

1) Pets and pets everywhere

2) Flashy animations – especially for AoEs – which make it hard to see what’s going on

Far from making this game more about skill, these items get in the way of skill based play because they actually make it, at times, impossible to see what’s going on. Please understand – I don’t mean here that they can make it difficult to see what’s going on and that those of us with greater awareness and skill in visual recognition will be better at reading it. Rather, I mean that at times they actually make it *impossible * to know what’s going on because the pets/particle animations actually get in the way of what we would need to see to actually read and react to the battlefield.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Jadda.1753

Jadda.1753

I agree aswell.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Animosity.5231

Animosity.5231

Agree wholeheartedly. Probably my biggest peeve with the game ATM. Balance issues, bugs, etc. all that will be fixed given time, but not being able to tell the different between the cast animations really hinders skilled play. Currently, it’s just more about chaining your CC together for as long as possible instead of timing it to make the best use of it.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: SmackMyBird.2386

SmackMyBird.2386

It’s pretty chaotic but it’s managable.. while it is very annoying and can mess your fight up at times, it’s not the most important thing to pay attention to at this stage in my opinion.

Spell animations etc are fine to me, sometimes it can be a bit chaotic if say 2 mesmers drop chaos storm and -insert 3 other proff aoe spells here-
though that rarely happens alot in tourney play. And if it does, it’s almost always on a node (where you should only keep the tankyass mofo, and he knows he has to suck it up and eat it.)

Other than aoe animations i think everything is relatively easy to notice. Especially the ones who really need countering (Pistol whip, 100b, hammer knockbacks on warriors/guardians etc) Just pay attention to the movement of their characters and it’s pretty easy to distinguish.

One thing, though, that really needs to be changed. Is the zerg army of AI mobs that just make the game feel like being stuck in a Starcraft battle between an army of zerglings and marines. It’s just a bloody mess. The game having 1-2 mesmers and a minion necro is enough to make everything one big bad kitten mess. Especially if you abilities rnt piercing, its just impossible. Insert some thiefs with thiefsguild and some spirit weapons and it’s just…. balls to the walls. On this point i agreed to the ends of the earth.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: BAMFZILLA.1850

BAMFZILLA.1850

Agree. Idk if there’s much they can do about it though.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Keltic.9526

Keltic.9526

I love minion necro, target the necro. Hit ctrl+t, ever lose target hit t, then ignore the minions and kill him. Similar concept with Mesmers just dont stand near the illusions. If you focus it all becomes really easy. You should try playing with 23 avg FPS, hahaha.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Ynot.8397

Ynot.8397

Maybe give the option to just turn off all of the flashyness? Put in an option for that and I think it would solve your issue. Not an option to turn down all graphics, just those for AOE and what not.

Ferguson’s Crossing→ SoS→ DR→ EBay

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Posted by: Xolo.3580

Xolo.3580

Since there is no global CD in GW2, autoattacking paired with skill usage can make things quite spammy. Another factor adding to the confusion is animations, like the OP said. I often don’t know if one of my utility skills fired off or not, and if not why, because of the battle chaos and lack of distinct animations/sounds of my skills. Sometimes my opponent will seemingly not take damage, which is obviously the fault of some defensive skill, but I never know which one it is, except if I’m playing against Elementalists who have nice big bubbles and rocks.

What made PvP good in WoW once, was the flow of combat. It was like a dance where you had to respect your opponent’s moves and react to them accordingly or you were just a pushover spam noob. Since crowd control in WoW is generally much stronger, aka more binary and lasting longer, the combat is less frantic. In GW2 it takes 3 skills with control to do what one WoW CC skill does, take for example the basic Mage spell Frost Nova. IMO it would help the game to make several soft CC skills and several defensive skills longer and more effective. This would slow down combat and force players to actually react to what their opponent does instead of “pressing all the buttons”.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: robbiebp.9475

robbiebp.9475

I don’t get this logic. “I’m good, I play the game well, but I dunno what I’m doing”.

Really? I’m not going to flame or call you a noob or anything, but I think most classes have pretty obvious give aways with how they’re going to play based on what weapon they pull out, and most weapon skills have pretty obvious tells. After that it’s reacting to slot skills. I’m not saying I’m pro, my win ratio isn’t anywhere near that. I’m just saying it’s not hard to know what to look for.

I’ve looked at this forum today and it’s streams of people complaining about issues that to me seem better than the suggested fixes. All of these suggestions start making the classes gradually redundant.

How about give the game time, and wait a couple months until peoples knowledge of the game is such that they are fully aware of other classes possible combos with their equipped weapon sets. It will happen. The game will get to that stage. You won’t be unsure of what to dodge, you’ll know what they are doing and what is about to happen.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Wolfe.3097

Wolfe.3097

elementalist is weak in pvp its already known

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Posted by: Trismegistos.3046

Trismegistos.3046

The problem, though, is that I don’t really FEEL good, not individually, or by my own standards. Why? Because I rarely ever fully understand the fight.

Say I’m fighting a thief, a pretty good one for that, what do I do? I kite him and use my standard rotation, I very rarely act situationally because I have a very little understanding of what’s going on.

If you want to make this game an E-sport, I really suggest you make things a lot more clear and visceral.

^THIS^

i’ve said it before, and ill say it again.

combat is too chaotic and random.
this means very noob-friendly (altho harder to master).
this also means that people who are not very experienced dont understand what is happening.

the problem is that every weapon skill does a billion things at once.
the solution is to make skills specific so that tactics and timing really matter and are noticeable by viewers.

imaginary example of a typical GW2 skill:
“deals damage, and dazes for 1.25 sec, and grants blocking for 5.75 sec, and if you dont block you gain protection, and also grants you a random boon”.

example of what skills should be like, to seperate the skilled from the button-mashers:
“deals x-type-of damage”. -no fluff.
“dazes your target for 1 sec. 15 sec cooldown”. -the end.
_______

also, the game really needs at least the option to tone down the spell effects.
you can barely even see anything in a group fight.

(edited by Trismegistos.3046)

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Posted by: Raging Bull.5048

Raging Bull.5048

Agreed buddy, agreed completely.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Untouch.2541

Untouch.2541

Agree. Idk if there’s much they can do about it though.

All they gotta do is tone down spell effects, which really if they want it to even have a chance at becoming an e-sport they’ll need to do.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Rock.7324

Rock.7324

Dear Mr.OP,

do tell me please, how long did it take you to learn what spells do in WoW? Or their animations? Did you know absolutely everything a month after you started playing?

I’m curious, because, for me, it didn’t work like that. It took me a couple of months to figure out everything that is going on around me and some things I learned later on, after playing arena for who knows how many games, and still I’m sure, there are things that top rated players (Hydra, Khuna etc.) do that I can’t even imagine, let alone do.

Why do you think you should know everything about GW2 after 180games (each 10min let’s say – and that’s a stretch) so, 30 hours of playing? Hell, I’ve had about 5-10 hours in SPvP and I am still to see a Scepter wielding Guardian (that’s what I play :P).

Now, take into consideration that each spec has 8 weapon combinations (I’m not gonna go count, but that’s my guess), 5 spells each and about 30ish abilities which they can use on the side. So, for 1 profession, there are 70 unique abilities that you have to learn to see/react to/stop. If we go with these numbers (yes, they are guesses, but I don’t believe I’m far off) there are roughly 560 different abilities…

Are you still surprised you don’t know all of them, yet?

Let me ask a counter question tho;
- If you knew every single ability in the game so far, would you still find the game interesting? Do you not prefer “learning” in PvP over dullness (which would likely come if you knew everything about the game in 3 weeks).

Further on…
I’m sure you die from time to time no matter how good you are. Do you stop and look at what killed you or you just skip through it?

I’m asking because I found out that the most I’ve learned from the game came from that score (not counting playing the actual profession). Seeing what hit me, how hard it hit me, and what I could have possibly done to prevent it…let alone looking back and taking a mental note of what was the combination of the weapons my opponent had and what the spell looked like.

All in all, what I’m trying to say here is the following;

Give it some time. With more experience your eye will train itself to see occurring animations and immediately send a signal to your brain; “THAT IS HEARTSEEKER, RUN AWAY!!!” or “OMG THAT ORB SHOOTING AT ME … ah nvm, Guardian with Scepter…LOL!”.

Best of luck out there.

EDIT;

imaginary example of a typical GW2 skill:
“deals damage, and dazes for 1.25 sec, and grants blocking for 5.75 sec, and if you dont block you gain protection, and also grants you a random boon”.

example of what skills should be like, to seperate the skilled from the button-mashers:
“deals x-type-of damage”. -no fluff.
“dazes your target for 1 sec. 15 sec cooldown”. -the end.
_______

also, the game really needs at least the option to tone down the spell effects.
you can barely even see anything in a group fight.

Um… skills should never EVER make a difference between a button-masher and a “skilled” player. It’s the usage of said skills that makes the difference, not what the skill does in itself.

I dunno about you, but I died to retaliation once (did over 10k dmg into it). Now, is this death the fault of the person who used (maybe blindly) the ability that gives Retaliation, or was it my fault for not knowing how it works/what it does/lack of awareness? … exactly. My fault. Will I make an error like this again? Not likely.

Meaning, a “scrub” (how I hate that word) will NEVER EVER BEAT YOU by randomly smashing buttons if you know what you’re doing. In fact, in most cases it will only make them lose faster.

What you’re asking for is just more skills; Instead of 5 that do 3 lines of something, you wish for 15 spells with 1 function. Difference? None. Besides the fact that the “scrubs” will mash more buttons.

EDIT 2;
I agree with the “flashiness” tho. When more than 5 people it is really difficult to see (at least for now, maybe later it won’t) what’s going on.

* ’Ko leži ne beži! *
Rockbaby – Asura Guardian, Desolation EU :)
Rockavenger – Dwarf Paladin, Bronzebeard EU :D

(edited by Rock.7324)

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Posted by: Shalashaska.4803

Shalashaska.4803

the OP needs to play more and qq less. At first the game seemed like a mess of spells to me. Now I see attacks coming from a mile away. I can anticipate skills a player is doing and dodge or counter. Every once in a while I get the " oh crap how did die" thing . Though, its because its a spell/boon/condition I didn’t know a class had.

In the end take your time and l2p

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Posted by: Dashel.8056

Dashel.8056

It is a bit confusing at this stage but I believe we’ll get a much better feel for it over time. Going in I tried to identify what were the real abilities I had to spend my dodge/evade on. Initially (and for the most part STILL) I was intuition dodging. “THAT certainly looks dangerous!”

Now it’s getting to be a matter of what to do in specific situations. Meaning I know what Heartseeker looks like, but they can do so many of them I need to figure out the best way to deal with it.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Josher.9612

Josher.9612

The chaos is what gets me in the graphics and shear number of stuff that’s effecting you constantly. 1 skill having 3 different effects is a problem. Its just not as streamlined as it should be., but honestly thats not changing. Its just the way it is. Its why the PvP in WOW was so intuitive and precise. Like others said. It was a dance of reaction, because you could really see what the other guy was doing and you weren’t getting hit with bleeds, weakness, slow all at once. Once you learned the animation and spell effects it really was a dance.

I’d say I still need more time learning, but for whatever reason, my motivation to learn isn’t as great as it was when I was learning in WOW back in 04. It might be due to the lack of any meaningful progression. PvP because its fun? Uh, yeah, but chaos isn’t fun for me.

Criticize Blizzard all you want, but they really understand all the little things and unique animations and graphics that correspond specifically and intuitively is what made WOW so great. GW2 is great in some ways as well, but PvP has issues.

PvP is a major cluster kitten, and I fear the future if it remains this way.

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Posted by: Trismegistos.3046

Trismegistos.3046

..snip..

u are absolutely right.
the problem is that gw2 is mostly about pvp. and if thats not working properly, or is not fun, then sadly the game will fail.
im sure they will improve this since many people notice the chaotic combat, both in graphic effects and conditions.
this game wants to become an e-sport after all.

they also need to fix the issues with teleporting and pathing skills for this game to be taken seriously.