Guild Wars 2

The title said it all! PvP is totally dead. How is it even possible for Anet to kill PvP after 1 season? Last season, it was a real PvP season and it is good to see people, a lot of people in PvP. Now this season, same faces all the time, I really can tell all of their names and ID with 4 digit number. Because there’s no one left in PvP! How is that even possible for this season that only has 1 legendary on leaderboard? This is ridiculous! At first, I thought there will be some good change in this season but nope, Anet made it worse. Worst season ever.

I agree with some of this. It has a low population, but then again, it’s during working times (though it collabed with Easter and we got some noobs in it temporarily, they ran away because of the next point) and doesn’t compete well with Xmas holidays.

The real problem most people I know don’t enjoy this season and won’t bother, is the condi cancer. Simple.
I wouldn’t bother if not for The Ascension, honestly. Most people have that by now though.

How did Anet make it “worse.” Literally the only two changes between last season and this one is the removal of decay/volatility exploit, and the removal of placement sniping.
Are you saying that PvP was better off with those exploits?

The real reason that s6 is lower pop is because the hype wore off. Kinda like how S1 was probably the highest participation season despite being a clown show with all the exploits and that whole bunker fiesta. Hype/newness is everything.

Flurry of dancing flames.9830:

I agree with some of this. It has a low population, but then again, it’s during working times (though it collabed with Easter and we got some noobs in it temporarily, they ran away because of the next point) and doesn’t compete well with Xmas holidays.

The real problem most people I know don’t enjoy this season and won’t bother, is the condi cancer. Simple.
I wouldn’t bother if not for The Ascension, honestly. Most people have that by now though.

There is no condi problem.

Out of all 9 professions, you have
Two professions that have about equal condition and power builds(warrior and necromancer)
One profession whose best build is hybrid damage(mesmer whose build has about equal power and condition damage)
All the rest 6 professions have power builds being their stronger choice.

The meta simply becomes stale and players get bored. On top of that, due to the death of pro scene, there lacks any hype around pvp. Last but not least, you get a huge contrast of reward in season 5 and 6. Those are the reasons for a shrinking pvp scene, not anything related to condition spam.

Crinn.7864:

How did Anet make it “worse.” Literally the only two changes between last season and this one is the removal of decay/volatility exploit, and the removal of placement sniping.
Are you saying that PvP was better off with those exploits?

The real reason that s6 is lower pop is because the hype wore off. Kinda like how S1 was probably the highest participation season despite being a clown show with all the exploits and that whole bunker fiesta. Hype/newness is everything.

1) Completely gutting the rewards to mediocre levels
2) Death of ESL – lack of follow up regarding pro league
3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail
4) Refusal to fix the matchmaking system that puts silver and plat players in the same game

But sure, definitely the playerbase’s fault that this is a dead game and not ANet’s fault.

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)

I always laugh at people who say the balance is the best its been. Please, dont even joke around. The Balance is at a all time low because its now split 4 ways.

Core Bad – Core Meta
Elite Bad – Elite Meta

Warriors are also running amuck doing serious amount of damage with plenty of passive defensive skills.

Thieves with many frames of evade, bugged teleports hitting players at range with dagger.

Just examples of how horrible the game is now, there a PLENTY more. Nothing is really balanced, its almost a bigger joke then Diablo 3 pvp.

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)

I disagree.

The meta prior to the d/d ele meta was really nice.

Warriors were shoutbow, rampage-power, and it took alot more skill to play. It had set ups for team fights and 1 vs 1.

Guardians had 2 legit ESL builds such as burn guardian and bunker shouts.

ETC ETC ETC

You could make the legit case that every glass (except thief) had 2 legit ESL builds. Since HOT came out we have had 1-2 classes be completely useless at high level play.

So i guess you can legitimately say the balance is the best its been since 2016 but this game is coming up on 6 years old.

Also no ESL players means what 30-50 players not playing. With there alt accounts? Thats alot of games not being potentially being played.

Lastly the plat vs silvers happened last season as well as plat 1 vs Legendary players.

I wouldnt say PvP is dead since its just a side game for Anet but we can say that for most players since the introduction of HOT PvP has become trash play.

S5 is a trick. Those are PVE people and they will not stay because they can’t handle this sustain rotation + huge damage PVP. When they remove the PVE reward or hard to get them or have gotten them. Then we can see the reality.

If you a new to join the pvp then see DH everywhere and see double, triple, quadruple traps on the circle that you need to go in and must to go in. What are you feel?

Anyways, their devs are very terrible. this is a simple problem and easy to predict, but their reaction are so low and let that bad environment go though whole season. That are not work and not fine. Player easy to leave and hard to go back. How to make people stay is the most important thing in the market. If they still keep the old-school modus – new contents , expansion pack , big update per 3 month , powercreep ….. then the game will go to over. Pls look around, your competitor not MMO only.

Do you think people will come back when they have eaten this HoT kittening kitten!?
Do you think people will buy your next expansion when you have low reputation!?
Do you think people will come back and update to play your 2 hour + a week framing LW per 3 months!?

The risk is too big.

kdaddy.5431:

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)

I disagree.

The meta prior to the d/d ele meta was really nice.

Warriors were shoutbow, rampage-power, and it took alot more skill to play. It had set ups for team fights and 1 vs 1.

Guardians had 2 legit ESL builds such as burn guardian and bunker shouts.

ETC ETC ETC

You could make the legit case that every glass (except thief) had 2 legit ESL builds. Since HOT came out we have had 1-2 classes be completely useless at high level play.

So i guess you can legitimately say the balance is the best its been since 2016 but this game is coming up on 6 years old.

Also no ESL players means what 30-50 players not playing. With there alt accounts? Thats alot of games not being potentially being played.

Lastly the plat vs silvers happened last season as well as plat 1 vs Legendary players.

I wouldnt say PvP is dead since its just a side game for Anet but we can say that for most players since the introduction of HOT PvP has become trash play.

Shoutbow warrior was more overpowered and easier to play than any of today’s builds.

How can a build be both the best team fight support and one of the strongest 1v1er? On top of that, it had a set skill rotation even easier than d/d ele’s. And with such power, it still has above-average mobility and decent kite potential.

Shotbow warrior is essentially today’s healer tempest combined with a bruiser type like scrapper or druid. It has potential to contend for the most OP build in gw2 pvp history.

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)

Well, the lack of pro league follow up does matter quite a lot due to the good people now quitting because of it. Much less streams about the game etc. And im willing to believe some people quit because the top players did. ESL didnt matter at all in the first place, it was just a tweet that people misinterpreted and went nuts about. That probably lost some players as well, it was really badly announced and the clarification for it came up too late. As for balance though youre completely right but i dont think the majority of the population actually wants a change.

kdaddy.5431:

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)

You could make the legit case that every glass (except thief) had 2 legit ESL builds. Since HOT came out we have had 1-2 classes be completely useless at high level play.

You wat lol

iKeostuKen.2738:

Thieves hitting players at range with dagger.

This is a real problem.
I was wondering wha’ts going on and thought it was some hack.

I think, the main reason, why people dislike the current state of class balance is not so much the balance between the classes, it is because the combat is less fun, due to various reasons. If it was fun, people wouldn’t get bored that fast and request changes just for the sake of getting something different. Meta builds are not fun to play nor fun to play against. It often felt like i’m fighting build mechanics instead of player actions and that i absolutely need certain mechanics in my own build to be able to counter those. Of course “fun” is a very subjective term and i’m sure there are some people that prefer the current state. But it is the main reason, why i quit and i know the same is true for many others. The combat is the core of PvP (and WvW) and i loved it. But if the core is rotten, improvements to the surroundings (matchmaking, rating, rewards, …) won’t save the game. At least not for me.

i think a huge issue is the fact there is no team based content which yields to No friends in SPVP which in turn yields to no community… don’t get me wrong i love the new solo/duo im actually top 30 atm rating wise which is awesome! But i think it was the worse change ANET ever did for spvp to take away premades in ranked and offered no viable replacement for SPVP team placements the need for auto tourneys or something to that effect is sorely needed. my .02

If S7 implements the sigil changes then you will get your wish for change.

I actually don’t mind the pvp scene atm. All this doom and gloom coming from players who quit is actually really funny. Like you aren’t playing therefore the game is dead. Right…

i dont think spvp is dead but it is definitely in worse shape then it has been past!

honestly ANET simply needs to comment that something is coming for these various issues…that would go a long way towards saving the community even if said changes are not ready yet etc. The no communication thing they got going on is for the birds.

This is the first season in which the leader boards are affected by the minimum required games rule, which increases every week. So, while the population is actually less this season, the perception is magnified each week when the minimum games required increases and suddenly you see people in Gold in the top 250.

I love this game because of its PvP system. Well, that’s the PAST now, we would definitely love to see a change in PvP like rebalancing? team of 4 PvP? Or maybe something that can get the thrill back to PvP? Oh please Anet! Just answer us! Let us know what you are going to do next! Don’t fool us anymore! You have already killed WvW, don’t kill PvP too!

Crinn.7864:

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years.

Depends on what aspect of balance you look at / consider important, sure as far as each class having a viable build the balance is pretty good, but in terms of build variety, the gap between what is “meta” and other builds,/skills/weapons/traits, then the game has been at an all time low since HoT.

Same thing with the combat, the powercreep is not good balance, it is terrible, more passives, more boon spam, more evades, more skills that do way too much, introduction of “healers” into a game specifically designed not to have them, weaknesses of classes removed or toned down, etc.

The balance, what skill there was, and the fun of the combat of this game went down the toilet with HoT, at least as far as PvP & WvW go.

With tanky warriors who hit like trucks, unkillable druids, perma stealth thiefs and the condition madness that is going on right now in PvP it shouldn’t surprise anyone that more and more players don’t wanna set foot into PvP anymore.
Class balance, where art thou?!

Perma stealth thieves? Were a thing for a half ineffective second before a nerf took thief traps out of that build.

It’s like you don’t play pvp and just picked up a list of random forum complaints. Druid can sustain well but is hardly unkillable. Warrior is a bit overturned but that is better than underviable like it was before. Conditions aren’t even half of builds played right now.

Lol.

ANet made the main material rewards (“buying” ascendant gear with tokens) more expensive that just crafting it, so a large chunk of casual PvE players which flooded PvP fleed away.

ANet did also leave the sponsored pro tournaments and ESL and stopped to inform about future PvP events in that range, so dedicated players and teams lost interest and faded away.

PvP lacks appeal for either casual or serious players, so no surprises here. And take a look over the WvW servers: only half of them remains, and from these half, about a third are empty.

Expansion also changed the mindset of a lot of players about what means having expectations with ANet and what they instead deliver; a ton of ex-players will never return. This game passed his prime.

You know what’s crazy my frands? Two weeks ago Blade and Soul released a super awesome patch! Unfortunately, among all the good things were some bad! Some classes became super overpowdered!

Today they released a patch fixing all the op classes and buffing things that weren’t so op! Two weeks! I’ve played this funny game for so long with their 6 month balance patches that I got used to it! Two weeks! Gosh I’m not used to being treated like such royalty! That just goes to show that if something is so obviously broken, it doesn’t take 6 months to patch (and then subsequently sucking big doodies at the patch and having it be broken for another 6 months)!

And you know what Blade and Soul has! Weekly tournaments! World championships! TV broadcasts! Just goes to show what a game can accomplish when you have devs who are worth a doot! The game mode helps too! What a surprise the arena game mode makes MMO PvP fun and competitive with the possibility of esportz! Who woulda thunk it! If only someone, or many someones, could have suggested it on these 4ums!

Ah well what’s past is past my frands! I hope you all have a great time playing Guild Warts 2. I’m sure it’s still a gr8 game.

haHAA

now that e sports are history i want pvp uptime like linage 2 or dragon nest
also the op weapons need to start getting nerfed

ellesee.8297:

Guild Warts 2

https://youtu.be/grbSQ6O6kbs

ellesee.8297:

You know what’s crazy my frands? Two weeks ago Blade and Soul released a super awesome patch! Unfortunately, among all the good things were some bad! Some classes became super overpowdered!

Today they released a patch fixing all the op classes and buffing things that weren’t so op! Two weeks! I’ve played this funny game for so long with their 6 month balance patches that I got used to it! Two weeks! Gosh I’m not used to being treated like such royalty! That just goes to show that if something is so obviously broken, it doesn’t take 6 months to patch (and then subsequently sucking big doodies at the patch and having it be broken for another 6 months)!

And you know what Blade and Soul has! Weekly tournaments! World championships! TV broadcasts! Just goes to show what a game can accomplish when you have devs who are worth a doot! The game mode helps too! What a surprise the arena game mode makes MMO PvP fun and competitive with the possibility of esportz! Who woulda thunk it! If only someone, or many someones, could have suggested it on these 4ums!

Ah well what’s past is past my frands! I hope you all have a great time playing Guild Warts 2. I’m sure it’s still a gr8 game.

haHAA

Yeah but the two MMOs even in the same genre are completely different. BnS is a completely PvP centric MMO. While GW2 is a PvE centric game.

The only problem is that ANet gave the PvP community false hope for PvP in GW2. Then introduced the pure PvE expansion HoT which did wonders for it’s PvE community. However as a side effect because ANet wants to focus on the sure profits only. PvP in GW2 is worst then a lot of even P2W game’s MMO’s PvP. So in fact of that of course you are going to see dedicated PvPers leave. I bet you ANet was completely counting on this.

You think PvP is bad here. BnS PvE is just as bad as the PvP in GW2. The two MMOs have two completely different ventures and values.

Oh you silly bear. You’re thinking of BnS at launch when there was hardly any PvE! There’s tons now and all the dungeons, raids, open world stuff have healthy queues. I’m not even on the populated server group!

BnS is just simply the better game! I encourage people here to join some veteran Guild Warts 2 players like me, Ostrich Eggs, and many more and play some fun, competitive PvP complete with leaderboards, matchmaking, rating, competitive game mode, and everything else that the silly Guild Warts devs can’t get right/won’t put in!

zinkz.7045:

Depends on what aspect of balance you look at / consider important, sure as far as each class having a viable build the balance is pretty good, but in terms of build variety, the gap between what is “meta” and other builds,/skills/weapons/traits, then the game has been at an all time low since HoT.

The difference between the viable and the sub-viable is no different than it was.

People need to realize that the combat system is built around giving player build choices, and that “choice” includes the ability to choose bad trait combinations that have no synergy and fill no desirable role.

There are 5 slots on a team which means 5 roles to fill, if a build does not fill a role that is desirable enough to be in that 5 it will never be viable no matter what Anet does.

Most balance complaints are just people complaining that their poorly thought out build doesn’t work in a competitive environment.

Same thing with the combat, the powercreep is not good balance, it is terrible, more passives, more boon spam, more evades, more skills that do way too much, introduction of “healers” into a game specifically designed not to have them, weaknesses of classes removed or toned down, etc.

I can count on 1 hand the number of passives introduced with HoT.

As for healers, fun fact about them: The decision not to have them was not universally accepted within ArenaNet devs, and their non-existence was only because of some internal politicking on the part of a couple devs. Source

And please we haven’t had power creep since 2015, and that power creep was honestly a good thing, since it reduced the trait power delta compared to before.

Also I prefer having full supports than the endless bruiser spam of core. At least post HoT we have multiple roles to fill instead of bruisers being the god role.

Crinn.7864:

The difference between the viable and the sub-viable is no different than it was.

Wrong.

With HoT the gap between what was optimal and what was not grew larger because of the powercreep.

Which meant for many players who previously may have been at a small disadvantage playing a build they found more engaging to play, they were now at a big disadvantage, which was too much, so many simply chose to play a different game.

As you’ve apparently missed it, GW2 is a casual game that competitively has always been a joke, most people don’t priortise “winning at all costs” in a joke game, they go play something else or they play an actual competitive game if that is their thing, and why you have threads like this about dead PvP.

Crinn.7864:

And please we haven’t had power creep since 2015, and that power creep was honestly a good thing..

If making a game with a combat system that was already relatively low skilled and cheesy, even more low skilled and cheesy is your thing then well…

Crinn.7864:

As for healers, fun fact about them: The decision not to have them was not universally accepted within ArenaNet devs, and their non-existence was only because of some internal politicking on the part of a couple devs. Source

“Fun”, but irrelevant, they went without them and designed around that.

Crinn.7864:

At least post HoT we have multiple roles to fill instead of bruisers being the god role.

Really? Without a hint of irony? The powercreep, healers, boonfest, etc has made most classes post-HoT play like cele eles that have no real weakness.

zinkz.7045:

Wrong.

With HoT the gap between what was optimal and what was not grew larger because of the powercreep.

Which meant for many players who previously may have been at a small disadvantage playing a build they found more engaging to play, they were now at a big disadvantage, which was to much, so many simply chose to play a different game.

And there are new suboptimal builds that have no big a difference from optimal than old.
I mean yeah if you try to a play a build that was non-viable before Hot, you’re going to be screwed, but you where screwed back then too, so I don’t see the relevance.

If making a game with a combat system that was already relatively low skilled and cheesy, even more low skilled and cheesy is your thing then well…

I’m trying to think which class is easier to play post HoT
thinking
Let me see the only class that would be easier, is thieves, and uh that’s it.

Core Guard is easier than DH in terms of mechanics. DH promotes active virtue usage while core guard just camps the passives.
Core Necro requires less mechanical knowledge than Reaper, since it lacks the combo potential that reaper does, and the lack of a offensively viable shroud means that core necro’s shroud usage is simpler.
Core ranger where you literally just 42111121111 on LB all the time.
Core Mesmer vs Chrono isn’t even a debate, Core Mesmer has none of the mechanical complexity nor APM requirements of Chrono.
I can go on

you have to realize that a higher power level doesn’t equate to lower skill requirement. The two are completely unrelated.

Crinn.7864:

Really? Without a hint of irony? The powercreep, healers, boonfest, etc has made most classes post-HoT play like cele eles that have no real weakness.

Sounds like bronze. The classes have definitive weaknesses. Revs to condi, thieves to area cleave, necros to spikes, mesmers to cleave, warrior to boon corrupt and kiting, DH to unblockables and CC, Ele to condis, engi to boon corrupt.

It will spike back up if and when they rebalance the rewards

@Crinn

You don’t have much pre HoT or pre trait changes PvP experience, right?

Your assumptions about how those core classes used to be played shows this pretty clearly.

Exciton.8942:

kdaddy.5431:

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years. But yes there has been no meta change.

It seems that Anet is trying to achieve balance, while the playerbase just wants change.

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population. The plat in match with silvers is the result of population and isn’t something that can be fixed. (unless the devs want to just prevent plat players from getting matches)

I disagree.

The meta prior to the d/d ele meta was really nice.

Warriors were shoutbow, rampage-power, and it took alot more skill to play. It had set ups for team fights and 1 vs 1.

Guardians had 2 legit ESL builds such as burn guardian and bunker shouts.

ETC ETC ETC

You could make the legit case that every glass (except thief) had 2 legit ESL builds. Since HOT came out we have had 1-2 classes be completely useless at high level play.

So i guess you can legitimately say the balance is the best its been since 2016 but this game is coming up on 6 years old.

Also no ESL players means what 30-50 players not playing. With there alt accounts? Thats alot of games not being potentially being played.

Lastly the plat vs silvers happened last season as well as plat 1 vs Legendary players.

I wouldnt say PvP is dead since its just a side game for Anet but we can say that for most players since the introduction of HOT PvP has become trash play.

Shoutbow warrior was more overpowered and easier to play than any of today’s builds.

How can a build be both the best team fight support and one of the strongest 1v1er? On top of that, it had a set skill rotation even easier than d/d ele’s. And with such power, it still has above-average mobility and decent kite potential.

Shotbow warrior is essentially today’s healer tempest combined with a bruiser type like scrapper or druid. It has potential to contend for the most OP build in gw2 pvp history.

I can agree with shout bow being OP. But it was most OP during the d/d ele meta so it barely got played in ESL.

Also most teams didnt run the shoutbow warrior for teams. They went with the power warrior and bunker guard which later turned into shoutbow warrior burn guard but by this team PvP hit the wall.

But you say easier then now? Im sorry but alot of things now are just hit it when it comes off cool down. I mean with so much spam skills like headbutt, to F1 primal mace weapon swap for another F1. You realize that Anet had to buff warrior healing on something because it couldnt compete after 2 full season from HOT?

Shout bow it at least made sense, you shouts to heal and cleanse condi. Use fire fields to stack boons and do condi damage.

Now its do damage to heal yourself. I do 10k damage to you in 5 sec and i heal for 6k.

This diverges from my original point though, in ESL you saw staff ele, s/f ele, d/d ele- burn guardian, bunker shout- point holding ranger and a longbow ranger- power warrior and a shoutbow etc etc etc.

At the highest level of the game there was some build diversity until everyone saw how broken d/d was which they could of easily fixed.

Look the at last Pro leagues, everyone ran the exact same build and the exact same team comps for every team that had success. In WTS 1 and WTS 2 you saw different comps.

Thats all i was trying to say.

Crinn.7864:

I mean yeah if you try to a play a build that was non-viable before Hot, you’re going to be screwed, but you where screwed back then too, so I don’t see the relevance.

You’ve had it explained, if you are still struggling to grasp that powercreep to certain things, increases the gap between those skills/traits and skills/traits not powercreeped, then really that is your problem.

Let me see the only class that would be easier, is thieves, and uh that’s it.

Every single class is more forgiving and has had weaknesses removed/lessened.

Crinn.7864:

Sounds like bronze. The classes have definitive weaknesses. Revs to condi, thieves to area cleave, necros to spikes, mesmers to cleave, warrior to boon corrupt and kiting, DH to unblockables and CC, Ele to condis, engi to boon corrupt.

Did you even play the game pre-HoT? (Hint: none of those other than revs to condi and necros getting kittened are real weaknesses, but then what else would I expect from a GW2 player…)

But whatever I’m off to either screw around in WvW or play an actual competitive game that involves things which are too much for GW2 like aiming, so you carry on with PvP and contemplate that now PvE/WvW players have attained their bribes, why so few are playing it and why the PvP population had to be boosted through bribes in the first place.

@ crinn

Sorry i have to agree with the others.

The idea that the the old core builds were easier to play is bonkers to me. Especially since you said guardians sat on there passives. You could tell a good guardian from a bad when they would time a perfect F2 when the team has 8 stacks of burning on them. Or when someone is about to get kill shotted and they time a perfect F3.

Alot of people have died (including some ESL players on video) have died to traps randomly placed some where on a map. I have a friend who runs a 5 trap Dh and just drops all the traps on certain area and doesnt really engage fights. He made it to plat doing that.

Also your description of what classes weakness applies to everyone.

Prior to HOT a few necro players made necro the best 1 vs 1 class in the game. That was skilled based and build based. Anet nerfed things like lich form and ramapage because lower level players couldnt handle those skills.

Which was the process of dumbing down the game.

Now with HOT the game is in its simplest form. Everyone does lots of damage (except ele) and you can just hit the same 3 buttons over and over to do it. Thief is either dodge and 3. Or 5 and 3, warrior is elite skill with F1 then weapon swap and F1. Dh just put traps down and walk away, heck for revs dont even worry about how to get boons like in core GW2. They will just be passives for you.

You usually make some good points but i completely disagree with HOT being more skilled vs core GW2.

There is a video on Helseths page, maybe his first GW2 video. You watch him on mesmer fight far and his portal play is insane. Your not seeing anything like that anymore.

unbelievable perspective from Crinn.

does he even know what powercreep is?

choovanski.5462:

unbelievable perspective from Crinn.

does he even know what powercreep is?

I’m fairly certain I have a better understanding than most of the people that use the term.

See these forums have three false beliefs about power creep
1) that all power increases are inherently bad
2) power increase automatically equates to lower skill level.
3) all buffs are power creep

The first is false because power creep is only bad when it’s done unevenly. Power level is completely arbitrary. The only thing that matters is the power level of components relative to other components. If some classes get power creeped more than others, then yes you have a problem. If all classes are creeped evenly then there is no problem because again everything is relative.

The second is false because skill requirements are related purely to mechanics, and how difficult executing on those mechanics are. And i would argue that HoT is more mechanically complex than core.

The third is false because power creep only occurs if the power level of the “meta” is increased. Buffs to garbage skills are not power creep, unless said garbage skill is buffed so much that it’s better-than-meta.

Here is a crash course on what is and isn’t power creep.

kdaddy.5431:

The idea that the the old core builds were easier to play is bonkers to me. Especially since you said guardians sat on there passives. You could tell a good guardian from a bad when they would time a perfect F2 when the team has 8 stacks of burning on them. Or when someone is about to get kill shotted and they time a perfect F3.

And DH can still do that. But DH can also use F3 shield for clutch body blocks which is something that core guard couldn’t do. (yes I’m aware of core guard’s shield5, but DH can and often takes that skill too)

All of the skill things that the core game had still exist and are still used. Nobody at high level spams skills. Juking is still a thing, so is faking, and so is teamplay. Now the nature of duo only has caused a lot of that to be depreciated, but that has nothing to do with class design.

Also your description of what classes weakness applies to everyone.

Some classes are more vulnerable to certain things than other classes. This is basic knowledge

Which was the process of dumbing down the game.

So wait now nerfing is dumbing down the game? Where you not also trying to tell me that power creep is dumbing down the game?

Seems to me like anything anyone does is dumbing down the game to you.

Now with HOT the game is in its simplest form. Everyone does lots of damage (except ele) and you can just hit the same 3 buttons over and over to do it. Thief is either dodge and 3. Or 5 and 3, warrior is elite skill with F1 then weapon swap and F1. Dh just put traps down and walk away, heck for revs dont even worry about how to get boons like in core GW2. They will just be passives for you.

Nobody at high level spams skills. You’d be a fool to do so, becuase of how hilariously predictable doing so makes you.

There is a video on Helseths page, maybe his first GW2 video. You watch him on mesmer fight far and his portal play is insane. Your not seeing anything like that anymore.

Last time I checked portal plays are still a thing.

ellesee.8297:

And you know what Blade and Soul has! Weekly tournaments! World championships! TV broadcasts! Just goes to show what a game can accomplish when you have devs who are worth a doot! The game mode helps too! What a surprise the arena game mode makes MMO PvP fun and competitive with the possibility of esportz! Who woulda thunk it! If only someone, or many someones, could have suggested it on these 4ums!

Ah well what’s past is past my frands! I hope you all have a great time playing Guild Warts 2. I’m sure it’s still a gr8 game.

haHAA

I oftenly check the numbers of GW2, ESO, BDO and Blade & Souls on Twitch.tv and all of then had pretty much the same crappy audience, at parsecs of distance from any remotely popular esport game (Counter, Overwatch, LoL, Dota…). Your little snowflake is as relevant and popular as GW2; is the same pulpy, undernourished dog with different collar…

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

As for your other points. ESL doesn’t matter to the queuing population.

Sorry, but you are SO WRONG. I dont know much about MMO gaming but I do know about marketing and social trends.

I’ll give you an example. Our little northern country and it’s people didnt even know what snooker was. Then one player from our country did get to Masters, and Eurosport started to show snooker for free in TV. I havent ever seen so many players buying cues and wanting to learn that game. In my town there was 2 new snooker halls opened just for that. Ofc hype wore out after a year, but still… Dont underestimate the power of pros.

ESL was what did bring me to GW2 PvP. Watching those players compete in worldchampionsip was getting me excited, that maybe I could be there one day. Now thats gone and this game is just another MMO. Just casual fun with friends… Oh wait.. PvP isnt.

Crinn.7864:

See these forums have three false beliefs about power creep
1) that all power increases are inherently bad
2) power increase automatically equates to lower skill level.
3) all buffs are power creep

1+3) Nobody said all buffs are bad or automatically powercreep.
2) Power increase doesn’t automatically lowers the required skill, but it can do so if passive mechanics get buffed or mechanics get simplified as result of buffs, which happened a lot in GW2.

Powercreep might not always be an issue, but this doesn’t mean, it can’t be a problem.

Powercreep as it happened with the new trait system (that might be even the main offender when i think about it) and HoT increases the influence of traits and skills on the outcome of the fight and decreases the impact of actual player actions. Counter building becomes more important. Many new or buffed traits are passive and don’t require any “skill” to be beneficial and there are more skills that offer both offense and defense at once, decreasing the need for thinking about when to play agressive and when to be more defensive.

The changes to the trait system and HoT added nothing that would increase complexity or mechanical demand. Your “examples” in a previous post are far away from reality.

Doesn’t mean, “braindead” builds didn’t exist back then (e.g. turret engi, spirit ranger), but those got nerfed quite fast into non-viability.

Crinn.7864:

And DH can still do that. But DH can also use F3 shield for clutch body blocks which is something that core guard couldn’t do. (yes I’m aware of core guard’s shield5, but DH can and often takes that skill too)

All of the skill things that the core game had still exist and are still used. Nobody at high level spams skills. Juking is still a thing, so is faking, and so is teamplay.

So using a 4 second block is somehow more “skillful” than applying aegis, which requires precise timing to be useful and not wasted on an autoattack or similar? A ranged and easy to land pull/cripple/burn more skillful than a blind? Btw, body blocking was a thing even without those huge shields, because you know, a “body” alone can block some stuff.

“Skill things” can be still used, sure, and sometimes those are still important, but to a lesser extent than in the past. Why apply aegis, if passives do the job just as well? Why care about cc, if you have stability up most of the time and low cd stunbreaks if not? Why care about dmg, if you can just facetank/outheal it? Why interrupt a heal skill, if interrupting auto attacks is almost as rewarding? Why cancel that skill to bait dodges, if it can be used every 4 seconds anyways? Why care about wasting dodges if you can dodge again and again? Why care about the order of condi application, if you can apply 1337 condis at once? Why care about 1337 condis on you if you are a druid with CA ready?
I spammed skills and got away with it just fine most of the time. 99% of the players spam skills and get away with it most of the time, even at higher tiers.

List of passives added with HoT:

Dead or Alive (warrior)
Gale Song (ele – unused on meta)
Hunter’s Determination (Guard)
Soothing Bastion (Rev – unused on meta)
Versed in Stone (Core Rev)

And no skills are not spammed at high level, you just don’t know what high level is. But yes high level players often don’t bother juking, because there no reason to juke random plebs that they can outplay offhandily.

Add:
Elemental Bastion + Imbued Melodies (the aura procs)
Rapid Regen (meta scrapper has passive swiftness access, which results in passive RR proc)
Adaptive Armor
Eye for an Eye
Endure Pain/Defy Pain got buffed (not with HoT release, but later)

The list doesn’t include passice procs that got added/buffed with the trait changes. And it lists only those traits that are pure passive procs. No traits that provide an general passive bonus (like +x% dmg), no traits that can literally be triggered by pressing buttons randomly and that encourage spamming stuff because you get rewarded for any action instead of only well timed actions (when you attack/dodge/heal/interupt/…).

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

I legit forgot Eye for an Eye. The others I do not count because they require active play from the player, or existed in the Core game.

@ crinn

1- No F3 block for a period of time is not as skilled as a well timed F3 which only blocks 1 attacks. Not all of them and also cures condi on every block

2- Yes nerfing skills because mid level and below players dont know how to counter is a bad thing. Yes power creep is a bad thing when they combine things such as warriors do damage and get healed at the same time.

It creates this situation where snow balling happens alot worse. I head butt then smash F1. I get 3k health regen and i do 5k damage to you. This is 2 stuns and both can be stun breakers so i never have to worry about being stunned.

In core GW2 you had to set up the F1 and a bulls charge/bolas land a GS2. You can call it what you like but the set up and chess match of trying to trigger dodges and stun breaks are gone.

3- What do you mean no one at higher levels spams skill? What do you think myagi was doing with 3 and dodge in plat 2/3. My friend got to plat 1 with full trap DH build and he wasnt trying to engage fights but simply drop traps in places where people would run and get caught.

No one is saying GW2 HOT is skill less but you said core GW2 took less skill when i can literally play thief and dodge then 5 and then dodge and 5 to down someone.

4- Of course portal plays are still in use but not like that anymore, you didnt bother to check.

5-" Some classes are more vulnerable to certain things than other classes. This is basic knowledge" yeah and what you said are the weaknesses were basic answers.

How to beat dragon hunters tips. Watch out for traps, you cant hurt them while they use F3 or renewed focus and shortbow 2 and sword 3 can do alot of damage. Becuase i said this everyone who loses to a dh is a noob.

^ this is literally 100X better then what you said about class weaknesses. You were like revs are weak towards condi, not if they are using malyx but ok thanks for that.

Lastly your list of passives added doesnt say anything once again. Thief was given a extra dodge. Dodges on thief now do something added which makes X utility skills for valuable then before.

Engys have been asking for something other then hammer for ranked play.

Your talk about the power creep as if it some how created better/skilled game when it forced people into 1 meta style of game play which is that thing we called build diversity.

In ESL before HOT you would see pro team running full bunker builds such as 2 bunker guardians, 2 staff eles and a d/d ele and Five Gauge would talk about how X team really kills the joy some times.

OHHHH wait that didnt kill it for him it was S4 tournament where Anet didnt fix down state due to the huge amount of everything HOT brought.

But of course we wont bring any of that up.

Got to upvote Kdaddy and Umbra on this thread.

Sorry Crinn but it seems you are not playing the same game I did since launch with my friends (and sadly, I barely play nowaday…My friend list took a massive drop with HoT and it is not doing so well lately).

Now I play WvW with my guildies every friday and saturday and then log off for the week since I don’t find as much fun as I once did in the game.

Kdaddy & Umbra have nailed it.

powercreep has given classes so much more damage & utility, & on much lower cooldowns. you no longer have to play smart anymore. you have defensive skills that do massive damage.

look at the abomination that is engineer hammer. what the heck kind of a weapon is that. why on earth does it have that much damage when it has that utility. it’s blatantly better than anything else the engineer (& tbh most classes) can use. it’s a must pick.

that’s the issue w HoT, it’s a whole tier above vanilla. it’s serious powercreep.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

SunBreaker.6850:

I love this game because of its PvP system. Well, that’s the PAST now, we would definitely love to see a change in PvP like rebalancing? team of 4 PvP? Or maybe something that can get the thrill back to PvP? Oh please Anet! Just answer us! Let us know what you are going to do next! Don’t fool us anymore! You have already killed WvW, don’t kill PvP too!

Been playing conquest for a while… enjoy it because every pug comp is so random that you will be playing a bit differently regardless of the map you’re playing. But yea, another mode that’s not king of the hill on three diff hills with 5 point arm wrestling matches thrown in there would be great. just pls no pve with my pvp… Capture the flag would be cool.