Guild Wars 2

I quit this game in the beginning of 2016, absolutely disgusted by the most egregious bunker meta ever conceived in the HoT launch. I came back for like a few weeks in the middle of May/June, only to quit again when it felt like ranked PvP dissolved into premades trashing solo-queuers.

As it stands, the game is better balanced than it was at HoT launch, and we’re getting the return of solo/duo-queue in season five. What is the doom and gloom about? I just don’t understand.

While this last point is anecdotal, my queue times are short. There’s more people in my guild PvPing than before. And there’s a lot of new names I’ve seen, even at a time when we’re weeks into the off-season with no clear announcement for when season five starts.

The game seems healthy enough, balanced enough, and has good changes coming in the pipeline. Even as an engineer main, a class people say is absolutely mediocre/bad right now, I manage to win 1v1s against most professions.

And while I’m pretty experienced playing this game for over four years with a few thousand games under my belt, I am pretty kitten rusty having played BDO and WoW over the past year. I would hardly consider myself an ESL level player in any remote sense even when playing at my best. I feel my experience since coming back a couple weeks ago would be fairly standard, and not an outlier or unrealistic data point to extrapolate toward a larger conclusion.

So why is this forum on fire? Is there something I’m missing?

There was a thread made by a renowned PvPer stating, listing, and professionally discussing the issues that plague this game’s PvP.

Idk where it went but while PvP is better than bunker hell from HoTS release its still abysmal to what it was/could be

law of mmos: The older the game gets, the saltier the playerbase gets

Azukas.1426:

While PvP is better than bunker hell from HoTS release its still abysmal to what it was/could be

I think it’s a fair point that Guild Wars 2 could be a better game, but I’m not sure pre-HoT GW2 is necessarily a model to imitate. You think the current state of affairs is abysmal and I respect that, but I’d argue that PvP was in its categorically worst state from the moment the Celestial amulet was added, and only upon its removal has the game since improved.

People around here like to complain that Heart of Thorns doubled-down on passives and boons and made the game more convoluted, but the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has always been a game riddled with passives, and necromancer at many times crept in the meta precisely to counter builds just absolutely swimming in bullkitten.

I used to be able to maintain close to 25 stacks of might, perma swiftness, vigor, and regeneration. All by just consuming elixirs on CD and swapping kits. What you desire from the past has never existed, and the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has been in much worse states than it currently is in.

Scrapper might be pretty easy to play, but so was 100nades, FT/TK condi, Cele rifle, and PPHGH. There wasn’t a single point in time where the best engineer build was its most challenging to master. And that is the case for most professions in this game.

Phineas Poe.3018:

People around here like to complain that Heart of Thorns doubled-down on passives

What’s really funny is when you realize that all the passives people complain about are all core traits that existed long before HoT.

heck if it wasn’t for the new profession mechanic on each elite spec, I’m not even sure classes would use their elite specs. The traits on elite specs are so mediocre most of the time.

Crinn.7864:

Phineas Poe.3018:

People around here like to complain that Heart of Thorns doubled-down on passives

What’s really funny is when you realize that all the passives people complain about are all core traits that existed long before HoT.

heck if it wasn’t for the new profession mechanic on each elite spec, I’m not even sure classes would use their elite specs. The traits on elite specs are so mediocre most of the time.

Well, I’m not going to deny that Heart of Thorns doubled-down on passives. Heart of Thorns also didn’t just add the new specialization trait lines. They went back and re-did a lot of the core trait lines, making a lot of traits baseline that were previously uncompetitive choices for their tiers, creating new, better ones in their place. The best example of this is something like the old Grenadier, with the Grenade Kit now having three grenades per throw by default.

So while I don’t run Scrapper in PvE, it is distinctively a Heart of Thorns thing that I do like 25k DPS on an Explosives/Firearms/Tools build that’s identical to what I’ve been running for years, which used to do nothing close to that. The power creep is a very real thing, though I’m not utterly convinced that’s automatically a bad thing. I don’t see Heart of Thorns as a different Guild Wars 2 so much as more Guild Wars 2.

My point is just that Guild Wars 2 has always been a game built around passives, and in ways far easier to maintain. At least a Scrapper has to give up certain utilities to make use of Rapid Regeneration and Final Salvo, and at least you have to be mindful of the field you’re standing in before you Rocket Charge back 25% of your HP. Before I would just brainlessly swap into kits for Backpack Regenerator.

The meta doesn’t particulary bother me its the bad matchmaking and lack of working competitve infrastructure that bothers me. Another iteration of the league system is coming in a week Im willing to give it a chance but given A-net’s track record probably hoping for the best and expecting the worst. But from a strictly balance stand point there have been many metas that were much worse.

I’m not much liking the feel of the meta these days. It kind of has a gank / zerg feel to it. Pretty much who can land their combo first after the ridiculous number of invulns, infi-dodging, and blocks run out. Things snowball a lot more, and there are a lot of what I would term “bully” builds out there in PvP. They work great if your on the better team, but loose horribly if your slightly weaker. The folks that play them tend then to turn on everyone on their team because they had terrific results when they were bully rolling their opponents, and so it must be their team that is the problem when they get utterly stomped. Hence AFK. There seem to be fewer close matches when people play more glass.

100% damage avoiding skills ( also high mobility 100% damage avoiding ) have to be nerfed to give damage mitigation instead 30% 50% etc. and balance the damage of the classes/builds from there.

Thats what required for fun fights. Atm all we face in every match is invu invu, block block block, evadee evadee, 00000, dodge dodge + high mobility teleports etc spamm.

Its OP lazy mechanic that carry bad/good players alot that can have 100% damage avoiding while also have high burst damage output.

While also not fun to fight against almost every match full of damage avoiding spam.

i eat the burst as they are attacking while also avoiding damage lol.

We had “bunker meta” before, we have now “100% damage avoiding tanky burst meta”

Rolisteel.1375:

100% damage avoiding skills ( also high mobility 100% damage avoiding ) have to be nerfed to give damage mitigation instead 30% 50% etc. and balance the damage of the classes/builds from there.

Thats what required for fun fights. Atm all we face in every match is invu invu, block block block, evadee evadee, 00000, dodge dodge + high mobility teleports etc spamm.

Its OP lazy mechanic that carry bad/good players alot that can have 100% damage avoiding while also have high burst damage output. Block/evade spam builds have always existed.

While also not fun to fight against almost every match full of damage avoiding spam.

i eat the burst as they are attacking while also avoiding damage lol.

We had “bunker meta” before, we have now “100% damage avoiding tanky burst meta”

How is this any different from engineers having perma vigor with double Elixir S (utility+trait) and Tool Kit builds pre-HoT?

In fact, blinds and smoke fields were across the board substantially stronger in the past compared to how they are today.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Azukas.1426:

While PvP is better than bunker hell from HoTS release its still abysmal to what it was/could be

I think it’s a fair point that Guild Wars 2 could be a better game, but I’m not sure pre-HoT GW2 is necessarily a model to imitate. You think the current state of affairs is abysmal and I respect that, but I’d argue that PvP was in its categorically worst state from the moment the Celestial amulet was added, and only upon its removal has the game since improved.

People around here like to complain that Heart of Thorns doubled-down on passives and boons and made the game more convoluted, but the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has always been a game riddled with passives, and necromancer at many times crept in the meta precisely to counter builds just absolutely swimming in bullkitten.

I used to be able to maintain close to 25 stacks of might, perma swiftness, vigor, and regeneration. All by just consuming elixirs on CD and swapping kits. What you desire from the past has never existed, and the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has been in much worse states than it currently is in.

Scrapper might be pretty easy to play, but so was 100nades, FT/TK condi, Cele rifle, and PPHGH. There wasn’t a single point in time where the best engineer build was its most challenging to master. And that is the case for most professions in this game.

I’m sure I speak for the majority when I say, “Give me GW2 on June 22 2015 sans the cele amulet over another expansion!”

That’s would have been the epitome of balance/skillful play right there

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rolisteel.1375:

100% damage avoiding skills ( also high mobility 100% damage avoiding ) have to be nerfed to give damage mitigation instead 30% 50% etc. and balance the damage of the classes/builds from there.

Thats what required for fun fights. Atm all we face in every match is invu invu, block block block, evadee evadee, 00000, dodge dodge + high mobility teleports etc spamm.

Its OP lazy mechanic that carry bad/good players alot that can have 100% damage avoiding while also have high burst damage output. Block/evade spam builds have always existed.

While also not fun to fight against almost every match full of damage avoiding spam.

i eat the burst as they are attacking while also avoiding damage lol.

We had “bunker meta” before, we have now “100% damage avoiding tanky burst meta”

How is this any different from engineers having perma vigor with double Elixir S (utility+trait) and Tool Kit builds pre-HoT?

In fact, blinds and smoke fields were across the board substantially stronger in the past compared to how they are today.

Well
1) I can’t get nuked by an engi using elixir S to mitigate incoming damage.
2) In fact if I’ve hit them with condis, they might die while in it.
3) In a 1v1 if I’m an engi and they are and we are contesting point, it is to my advantage for them to go into elix S, as my cooldowns start ticking and I can actively use healing.

Azukas.1426:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Azukas.1426:

While PvP is better than bunker hell from HoTS release its still abysmal to what it was/could be

I think it’s a fair point that Guild Wars 2 could be a better game, but I’m not sure pre-HoT GW2 is necessarily a model to imitate. You think the current state of affairs is abysmal and I respect that, but I’d argue that PvP was in its categorically worst state from the moment the Celestial amulet was added, and only upon its removal has the game since improved.

People around here like to complain that Heart of Thorns doubled-down on passives and boons and made the game more convoluted, but the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has always been a game riddled with passives, and necromancer at many times crept in the meta precisely to counter builds just absolutely swimming in bullkitten.

I used to be able to maintain close to 25 stacks of might, perma swiftness, vigor, and regeneration. All by just consuming elixirs on CD and swapping kits. What you desire from the past has never existed, and the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has been in much worse states than it currently is in.

Scrapper might be pretty easy to play, but so was 100nades, FT/TK condi, Cele rifle, and PPHGH. There wasn’t a single point in time where the best engineer build was its most challenging to master. And that is the case for most professions in this game.

I’m sure I speak for the majority when I say, “Give me GW2 on June 22 2015 sans the cele amulet over another expansion!”

That’s would have been the epitome of balance/skillful play right there

You don’t speak for the majority.

For a 4 years game, the spvp scene is still strong.

The next Xpac will bring back many spvp lovers into the scene and perhaps season 5 will do as well.

Let’s hope that Anet can make our beloved game a Phoenix come back and bring back all the serious pvp players we lost over the years.

shion.2084:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rolisteel.1375:

100% damage avoiding skills ( also high mobility 100% damage avoiding ) have to be nerfed to give damage mitigation instead 30% 50% etc. and balance the damage of the classes/builds from there.

Thats what required for fun fights. Atm all we face in every match is invu invu, block block block, evadee evadee, 00000, dodge dodge + high mobility teleports etc spamm.

Its OP lazy mechanic that carry bad/good players alot that can have 100% damage avoiding while also have high burst damage output. Block/evade spam builds have always existed.

While also not fun to fight against almost every match full of damage avoiding spam.

i eat the burst as they are attacking while also avoiding damage lol.

We had “bunker meta” before, we have now “100% damage avoiding tanky burst meta”

How is this any different from engineers having perma vigor with double Elixir S (utility+trait) and Tool Kit builds pre-HoT?

In fact, blinds and smoke fields were across the board substantially stronger in the past compared to how they are today.

Well
1) I can’t get nuked by an engi using elixir S to mitigate incoming damage.
2) In fact if I’ve hit them with condis, they might die while in it.
3) In a 1v1 if I’m an engi and they are and we are contesting point, it is to my advantage for them to go into elix S, as my cooldowns start ticking and I can actively use healing.

I feel like you missed the point of the question.

Jourdelune.7456:

For a 4 years game, the spvp scene is still strong.

The next Xpac will bring back many spvp lovers into the scene and perhaps season 5 will do as well.

Let’s hope that Anet can make our beloved game a Phoenix come back and bring back all the serious pvp players we lost over the years.

In my opinion, things will really start to get interesting when more elite specs are introduced, because only one can be chosen at a time.

Yannir.4132:

Azukas.1426:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Azukas.1426:

While PvP is better than bunker hell from HoTS release its still abysmal to what it was/could be

I think it’s a fair point that Guild Wars 2 could be a better game, but I’m not sure pre-HoT GW2 is necessarily a model to imitate. You think the current state of affairs is abysmal and I respect that, but I’d argue that PvP was in its categorically worst state from the moment the Celestial amulet was added, and only upon its removal has the game since improved.

People around here like to complain that Heart of Thorns doubled-down on passives and boons and made the game more convoluted, but the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has always been a game riddled with passives, and necromancer at many times crept in the meta precisely to counter builds just absolutely swimming in bullkitten.

I used to be able to maintain close to 25 stacks of might, perma swiftness, vigor, and regeneration. All by just consuming elixirs on CD and swapping kits. What you desire from the past has never existed, and the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has been in much worse states than it currently is in.

Scrapper might be pretty easy to play, but so was 100nades, FT/TK condi, Cele rifle, and PPHGH. There wasn’t a single point in time where the best engineer build was its most challenging to master. And that is the case for most professions in this game.

I’m sure I speak for the majority when I say, “Give me GW2 on June 22 2015 sans the cele amulet over another expansion!”

That’s would have been the epitome of balance/skillful play right there

You don’t speak for the majority.

You just aren’t apart of the majority

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rolisteel.1375:

100% damage avoiding skills ( also high mobility 100% damage avoiding ) have to be nerfed to give damage mitigation instead 30% 50% etc. and balance the damage of the classes/builds from there.

Thats what required for fun fights. Atm all we face in every match is invu invu, block block block, evadee evadee, 00000, dodge dodge + high mobility teleports etc spamm.

Its OP lazy mechanic that carry bad/good players alot that can have 100% damage avoiding while also have high burst damage output. Block/evade spam builds have always existed.

While also not fun to fight against almost every match full of damage avoiding spam.

i eat the burst as they are attacking while also avoiding damage lol.

We had “bunker meta” before, we have now “100% damage avoiding tanky burst meta”

How is this any different from engineers having perma vigor with double Elixir S (utility+trait) and Tool Kit builds pre-HoT?

In fact, blinds and smoke fields were across the board substantially stronger in the past compared to how they are today.

1. People complained about toolkit back then, because the block WAS on a really low CD.
2. Each elixir S is on a 60s CD (or 48s traited), which is a LIFETIME compared to HoT skills. It is also a utility skill, not a weapon skill.
3. The engie is doing 0 damage while in elixir S, meaning you can patiently wait with your CD or time your interrupt to prevent the inevitable healing turret (although healing turret on a 1/4s cast time was stupid, and finally nerfed).
4. While rifle engie had a lot of CC, it didn’t have a ton of mobility, and most of the cc was not instant. The spec had enough holes that it wasn’t the “be all, end all.” Most HoT specs have VERY few holes.

HoT took all the things that were the worst about build pre-HoT (things that lack counterplay) and handed them out like candy to every class. It handed out loads of hard mitigation on a short CD, and then upped the damage to make up for it. This not only left pre-HoT things in the dust damage wise, it also forced everyone to load up on as much hard mitigation as possible. Then, because everyone had all these “mitigate all damage skills” they had to remove amulets that have toughness (that were NEVER a problem) because they became a problem when everyone could heal for way more, block forever, and only rarely take hits. This means any spec that can’t boast a ton of blocks, evades, invulns, etc. can’t even play the game.

Finally, HoT’s power-creep killed build diversity. Pre-HoT, Off-meta builds were maybe 5-10% worse than meta builds, but could make up that difference more easily with the element of surprise. Post-HoT, off meta builds are like 25-40% weaker than meta-builds with the elite spec, and can’t make up the difference against players that play well. This makes the game boring and interactions in fights predictable, killing fun for a large portion of players (esp. those who enjoy creativity more than just winning at all costs).

I tried to queue up for a ranked match on NA last night and had to leave it after sitting for over 30 minutes in queue. If you’re getting better times, please, by all means, share them with me. Also, balance in this game is still leagues from anything I would consider ‘healthy’. Elite specs are all still considerable upgrades from core, and real build diversity is still nonexistent.

Azukas.1426:

Yannir.4132:

Azukas.1426:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Azukas.1426:

While PvP is better than bunker hell from HoTS release its still abysmal to what it was/could be

I think it’s a fair point that Guild Wars 2 could be a better game, but I’m not sure pre-HoT GW2 is necessarily a model to imitate. You think the current state of affairs is abysmal and I respect that, but I’d argue that PvP was in its categorically worst state from the moment the Celestial amulet was added, and only upon its removal has the game since improved.

People around here like to complain that Heart of Thorns doubled-down on passives and boons and made the game more convoluted, but the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has always been a game riddled with passives, and necromancer at many times crept in the meta precisely to counter builds just absolutely swimming in bullkitten.

I used to be able to maintain close to 25 stacks of might, perma swiftness, vigor, and regeneration. All by just consuming elixirs on CD and swapping kits. What you desire from the past has never existed, and the truth of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 has been in much worse states than it currently is in.

Scrapper might be pretty easy to play, but so was 100nades, FT/TK condi, Cele rifle, and PPHGH. There wasn’t a single point in time where the best engineer build was its most challenging to master. And that is the case for most professions in this game.

I’m sure I speak for the majority when I say, “Give me GW2 on June 22 2015 sans the cele amulet over another expansion!”

That’s would have been the epitome of balance/skillful play right there

You don’t speak for the majority.

You just aren’t apart of the majority

No you just aren’t a part of the majority.

Sins.4782:

I tried to queue up for a ranked match on NA last night and had to leave it after sitting for over 30 minutes in queue. If you’re getting better times, please, by all means, share them with me. Also, balance in this game is still leagues from anything I would consider ‘healthy’. Elite specs are all still considerable upgrades from core, and real build diversity is still nonexistent.

You do realize it’s still the off-season, right?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Sins.4782:

I tried to queue up for a ranked match on NA last night and had to leave it after sitting for over 30 minutes in queue. If you’re getting better times, please, by all means, share them with me. Also, balance in this game is still leagues from anything I would consider ‘healthy’. Elite specs are all still considerable upgrades from core, and real build diversity is still nonexistent.

You do realize it’s still the off-season, right?

Actually right now it’s Coliseum season.

“The game seems healthy enough, balanced enough, "
Did you actually play in the last month or so ? … how could yu think that this cancer meta is “balanced” ? where conditions for noobs burst more than power spike builds ?

You raise some fair points about engi, but I have to stop and respond to a couple things you said.

BlackBeard.2873:

Then, because everyone had all these “mitigate all damage skills” they had to remove amulets that have toughness (that were NEVER a problem) because they became a problem when everyone could heal for way more, block forever, and only rarely take hits. This means any spec that can’t boast a ton of blocks, evades, invulns, etc. can’t even play the game.

You’re not wrong, but I think you’re improperly viewing the balancing situation.

Toughness and healing power amulets have always been a problem. They’ve just been able to balance stuff like cele rifle engi, bunker guardian, and d/d elementalist in the past without threatening PvE viability; the trees that made bunker guardian and d/d elementalist overpowered weren’t commonly chosen in PvE, so they had free reign to balance stuff out as they needed to.

But as I’m sure you know, that changed when Heart of Thorns came out. Every class (minus the engineer) used their elite specialization in both PvE and PvP, which put the balance team in a precarious situation. Nerfing builds in PvP would have a direct effect in PvE viability, which meant ArenaNet’s PvP team was forced to balance the game not through adjusting skills but by adding and removing amulets.

So it’s not that HoT made amulets a problem; it’s just that adding and removing amulets was the only way to balance PvP without making chronomancer useless in PvE. We’ve already seen that type of treatment hit the revenant, and you can see what kind of backlash they’ve received since.

Now that they’re (finally) willing to balance PvP and PvE separately, I would be very surprised if most of your concerns regarding the HoT power creep evaporate over the next few months.

BlackBeard.2873:

Finally, HoT’s power-creep killed build diversity. Pre-HoT, Off-meta builds were maybe 5-10% worse than meta builds, but could make up that difference more easily with the element of surprise. Post-HoT, off meta builds are like 25-40% weaker than meta-builds with the elite spec, and can’t make up the difference against players that play well. This makes the game boring and interactions in fights predictable, killing fun for a large portion of players (esp. those who enjoy creativity more than just winning at all costs).

I disagree so, so much with this statement. There have always been meta builds. Off-meta builds have to some extent been “viable” from time to time, but there have been so many godly builds over the years (e.g., anything running celestial amulet) that completely trashed off-meta builds.

For all complaints of post-HoT diversity, people have been complaining about balance and class stacking since the early months of this game’s life. And nothing in the game’s current state comes close to the complete stupidity of d/d cele elementalist. The PvP meta revolved entirely around one class for over a year.

Blackari.2051:

“The game seems healthy enough, balanced enough, "
Did you actually play in the last month or so ? … how could yu think that this cancer meta is “balanced” ? where conditions for noobs burst more than power spike builds ?

In my experience, the only time condi is an actual problem is when I’m stuck on a team with three guardians.

Well, to be fair while I do think d/d cele elementalist was pretty much ridiculous, nothing can really top the awfulness that is called bunker mesmer meta during S1. A good one can prevent point capping for a good while and I remembered that the pro league games mainly came down to which team can cap a point for a while.

Wildfang.3271:

Well, to be fair while I do think d/d cele elementalist was pretty much ridiculous, nothing can really top the awfulness that is called bunker mesmer meta during S1. A good one can prevent point capping for a good while and I remembered that the pro league games mainly came down to which team can cap a point for a while.

Season one was the first time I saw games regularly going the full fifteen minutes. Alongside the 50/50 matchmaking, it made season one such a gigantic grind that by the time I reached diamond I was absolutely fed up with it and stopped playing.

I’d say it was easily the lowest point in the game’s life on the PvP side of things, and when Black Desert came out it wasn’t a difficult choice to make regarding which game to play.

I understand it’s very easy to improve on that situation, as it’s pretty tough to go further downhill than that—so I understand saying things are in “a better state than before” isn’t saying a lot.

I do, however, think that the current meta at the moment is far superior to most we’ve experienced. I don’t particularly enjoy seeing every condition in the game chipping away at my health bar when I’m stuck in a game vs. 2 necromancers and a mesmer, especially when my team is full of thieves and guardians who’d rather duel off-point, but this off-season has been more tolerable than most, and I anticipate that with the solo/duo queue and MMR system for season five will make matchmaking far more consistent and fair.

At the end of the day it just comes down to whether or not you enjoy the actual gamplay of Heart of Thorns PvP, and I totally understand that for many players they prefer what we had before.

I still miss hambow era…

Razor.9872:

Jourdelune.7456:

For a 4 years game, the spvp scene is still strong.

The next Xpac will bring back many spvp lovers into the scene and perhaps season 5 will do as well.

Let’s hope that Anet can make our beloved game a Phoenix come back and bring back all the serious pvp players we lost over the years.

In my opinion, things will really start to get interesting when more elite specs are introduced, because only one can be chosen at a time.

Agreed! This is gonna be amazing. Really anticipating seeing what Anet has down their sleeve. Unfortunately it seems like the next xpac comes in over 3 years from now, so rip.