Guild Wars 2

Today at PAX there was made reference to the fact that in GW2 if more PvP modes are created they fear that the player base will be spread too thin. Their only justification for such a claim is that currently with the addition of soloQ teamQ has been almost completely destroyed, however the addition of soloQ didnt actually add anything new other then a method for playing their current game type.

They tried to use failed PvP modes in GW1 as further justification that more game modes can be bad for the community, however lets compare GW1 to GW2 game modes.

GW1:
GvG
Heros Ascent (Hall of Heros)
Team Arenas (Defunct)
Hero Battles
Random Arena
Fort Aspenwood
Jade Quarry

GW2:
Conquest PvP
Large Scale Conquest PvP (aka WvW)

Now lets look at the populations for those GW1 modes. Heros Ascent, GvG, FA, JQ and RA all had healthly populations near the 4/5 year mark after release of the original game. Team Arenas was redundent and thus removed and replaced with the conquest style game Hero Battles. This should be clue #1 that conquest was not something that players of the GW games would enjoy as it failed miserably only being popular on the notorious Red Resign Days.

So, interesting, GW1 had 5 very healthy PvP modes years into its life so clearly the GW player base can handle multiple PvP forms. But lets take an even closer look at 2 of these specifically; FA and JQ. While FA was always moderately popular JQ was a barren waste land for the first year of its life, however an increase to the rewards this game mode gave quickly revitalized this mode and made it extremely popular as it was a fantastic way for both PvE players and PvP players to gain rewards. Lets compare that to GW2 conquest. The only rewards we get are skins, and they are only usable in the PvP world. Sure sounds rewarding!

So basically it comes to this. The first true conquest PvP mode (Hero Battles) was met with much hatred from the community, yet the only method of PvP in GW2 is that mode. Second, the player base is not interested in playing un rewarding content yet in GW2 the rewards are atrocious. So Anet… what on earth happened? Why are you telling us the community cant handle more modes? Why is the game (really in general including PvE) completely unrewarding?

Because WvW is “more exciting.”

Honestly I’m done with this game until they either do a revamp of PvP balance for conquest so that it is actually competitive or bring other modes and let the balance be more self-regulating because of how different builds would matter.

Until then I want nothing to do with this game except for lolz

Parisalchuk.9230:

GvG
Heros Ascent (Hall of Heros)
Team Arenas (Defunct)
Hero Battles
Random Arena
Fort Aspenwood
Jade Quarry

no love for codex arena. it was my favorite

Parisalchuk.9230:

GW1:
GvG
Heros Ascent (Hall of Heros)
Team Arenas (Defunct)
Hero Battles
Random Arena
Fort Aspenwood
Jade Quarry

GW2:
Conquest PvP
Large Scale Conquest PvP (aka WvW)

You’re partly confusing modes with game types, at least given how you’ve made your list.

RA/TA are not different from Team/SoloQ; they operated on the same maps, same mechanics, but one was random while the other was team specific. Meanwhile, WvW is more like FA/JQ combined with Alliance Battles, in fact the mechanics are pretty much the same overall thing just stretched out over a week rather than 15 minute fights.

So, in reality, if you were to break up the list it’d be:
GW1:
RA/TA/Codex (sort of on the latter)
GvG
HA
FA/JQ
AB

GW2:
Solo/TeamQ
HotJoin/WvW – Zergs
WvW – Roaming (free PvP, so to speak)
WvW – Siege/Defense (FA/JQ/AB mix equiv)
WvW – GvG

Gamemodes, on the other hand, are a completely different thing:
GW1:
Kill Priest
Relic Run
3-Way Team FFA
Hall of Heroes – Conquest
Deathmatch (and variants)
GvG

GW2:
Conquest
WvW – Roaming (Deathmatch)
WvW 3-Way FFA/Conquest/Zergs
WvW – GvG (Deathmatch)

Note: Most WvW modes are either unofficial or unstructured. The only structured content in GW1 was HoH/GvG/TA, the only structured content in GW2 is Conquest. So long as you include WvW, you could potentially be looking at an equivalent number of game types, but game modes are severely lacking even if WvW is included.

Heck I know of plenty of WvW players who are hardcore PvPers but they won’t touch sPvP. Not because of the format but because its claustrophobic and inorganic (of course I know a few who are the exact opposite). Many people like to have organic PvP that just “happens” and, in a way, I’d even go as far as to wonder if WvW itself wasn’t hurting PvP populations in the way the devs fear more than the addition of game modes ever would.

I personally love PvP in this game but I spend most of my time doing it in WvW, not in sPvP, and thats because, after a while, the sPvP just becomes repetitive rotations around nodes. In WvW I can chase nodes, if I want, chase players, if I want, troll players, if I want, have deathmatches, if I want, and engage in massive cluterkittens, if I want.

Parisalchuk.9230:

Today at PAX there was made reference to the fact that in GW2 if more PvP modes are created they fear that the player base will be spread too thin.

It’s circular logic baby! “If I take a risk then I may lose but if I don’t take that risk I might lose less!” This logic was easy to see coming after the soloQ/teamQ split. Anet saw that teamQ died(threads about enormous wait times) while soloQ is still alive. Before the split the soloQers were essentially keeping the teamQ alive.

In the end, no risk will mean no reward- stagnation will not breed an interest in PvP for the broader community.

No content to play = no players. It’s THAT easy.

Only conquest = even conquest fans will get bored.

Add. Heroes’. Ascent. Please. Only 1 que, variety, progression, goal, rewards…

Vena.8436:

I’d even go as far as to wonder if WvW itself wasn’t hurting PvP populations in the way the devs fear more than the addition of game modes ever would.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The game did launch with two pvp modes, and the one that is more robust is flourishing while the other is stagnating. WvW is also much more casual friendly than sPvP is.

Maybe they should update rewards for pvp and actually give people some tangible incentives to do it, especially differing modes. Ah nvm, that’s too much work and money

I don’t want new gamemodes, I want the competitive infrastructure that was promised.

Hi, I am anet. I want to defend a point. I bring up nonsensical arguments, then never comment back. Truly yours, anet.

ps: i am anet

Aaah Red resign… those were the days..

I am pretty sure they have been using the same argument since release (or much earlier), that and ‘esports’. Really aggravating and especially disappointing to just about everyone who supported Gw1 pvp.

With the current combat mechanics. Range > Melee in anything other than conquest mode. That’s why we have crap like “bunker” builds….what a joke.

That’s why they didn’t/can’t release something as simple as a death match mode.

If Anet would…….*drum roll….give us more skill slots. Then combat in GW2 would be deeper and more strategic. What does a melee warrior do when he meets a ranged ranger in the open field? He runs like a chicken. But what if this Warrior somehow has 10 utility skills instead of only 5? What if the Warrior could actually switch to a third weapon set instead of limited to 2? Things like these are what make combat deep and strategic. Obviously utility skills will need to be tweaked and changed for balancing reasons as the skills we have now take into account that you only can equip 3 at the same time (excluding heal and elite).

Basically what im saying is that we would need a complete overhaul of combat mechanics for us to have a “balanced” pvp mode that is not conquest. I can never understand why Anet crippled themselves with 5 utility slots. Which in practice is only 2. As one is healing, Elite, and stun breaker (you obviously can pick not to pick up a stun breaker for pvp but then yeah….you will be dying a lot).

Caramel Ham.4891:

With the current combat mechanics. Range > Melee in anything other than conquest mode. That’s why we have crap like “bunker” builds….what a joke.

That’s why they didn’t/can’t release something as simple as a death match mode.

If Anet would…….*drum roll….give us more skill slots. Then combat in GW2 would be deeper and more strategic. What does a melee warrior do when he meets a ranged ranger in the open field? He runs like a chicken. But what if this Warrior somehow has 10 utility skills instead of only 5? What if the Warrior could actually switch to a third weapon set instead of limited to 2? Things like these are what make combat deep and strategic. Obviously utility skills will need to be tweaked and changed for balancing reasons as the skills we have now take into account that you only can equip 3 at the same time (excluding heal and elite).

Basically what im saying is that we would need a complete overhaul of combat mechanics for us to have a “balanced” pvp mode that is not conquest. I can never understand why Anet crippled themselves with 5 utility slots. Which in practice is only 2. As one is healing, Elite, and stun breaker (you obviously can pick not to pick up a stun breaker for pvp but then yeah….you will be dying a lot).

I believe you are mistaken. There’s many open field skirmishess in WvWvW, and range doesn’t dominate melee. Snares, gap-closers, invulns, and just switching to a range weapon while moving into melee all allow a mixture of ranged and melee ability to be valuable.

Caramel Ham.4891:

With the current combat mechanics. Range > Melee in anything other than conquest mode. That’s why we have crap like “bunker” builds….what a joke.

We have bunker builds because of conquest mode.
In order to cap a node or prevent it from being decapped, someone must stay on it, getting extremely exposed to all kind of AoE attacks. You rather have some kind of tough spec if you expect to survive that pressure.

It’s more (somehow related, however) an AoE issue than a Ranged vs Melee one.

Their argument was stupid, so is the title of the thread. However, there are good arguments why different gamemodes harm the game.

Most importantly, various PvP modes will break the balance. Professions and skills are OP in one gamemode, but absolutely useless in another. In GW2 the 0/30/30/10/0 D/P thief is a prime example: borderline OP in WvW, but useless in sPvP. Riot tried to add another gamemode to League of Legends. Is anyone still playing dominion? Riot has learnt its lesson from Dominion. ANet has learnt its lesson from GW. It’s time to stop the requests for different gamemodes.

FirstBlood.7359:

Their argument was stupid, so is the title of the thread. However, there are good arguments why different gamemodes harm the game:

Various PvP modes will break the balance.

ANet has learnt its lesson from GW. Riot has learnt its lesson from Dominion. So should you.

Nope. Single game mode break game balance in an MMO.
That’s why guardians are a must have in any team and AoE is a problem.

etiolate.9185:

Caramel Ham.4891:

With the current combat mechanics. Range > Melee in anything other than conquest mode. That’s why we have crap like “bunker” builds….what a joke.

That’s why they didn’t/can’t release something as simple as a death match mode.

If Anet would…….*drum roll….give us more skill slots. Then combat in GW2 would be deeper and more strategic. What does a melee warrior do when he meets a ranged ranger in the open field? He runs like a chicken. But what if this Warrior somehow has 10 utility skills instead of only 5? What if the Warrior could actually switch to a third weapon set instead of limited to 2? Things like these are what make combat deep and strategic. Obviously utility skills will need to be tweaked and changed for balancing reasons as the skills we have now take into account that you only can equip 3 at the same time (excluding heal and elite).

Basically what im saying is that we would need a complete overhaul of combat mechanics for us to have a “balanced” pvp mode that is not conquest. I can never understand why Anet crippled themselves with 5 utility slots. Which in practice is only 2. As one is healing, Elite, and stun breaker (you obviously can pick not to pick up a stun breaker for pvp but then yeah….you will be dying a lot).

I believe you are mistaken. There’s many open field skirmishess in WvWvW, and range doesn’t dominate melee. Snares, gap-closers, invulns, and just switching to a range weapon while moving into melee all allow a mixture of ranged and melee ability to be valuable.

Now that I think about it, you might be right. As a Warr with a 1h sword+shield and rifle I could probably be pretty effective against more ranged oriented classes. To what extend I guess just depends on my skills. Though I am not a very big fan of the 1h sword.

I do still wish to see more skills open to us at the same time though.

FirstBlood.7359:

Their argument was stupid, so is the title of the thread. However, there are good arguments why different gamemodes harm the game.

Most importantly, various PvP modes will break the balance. Professions and skills are OP in one gamemode, but absolutely useless in another. In GW2 the 0/30/30/10/0 D/P thief is a prime example: borderline OP in WvW, but useless in sPvP. Riot tried to add another gamemode to League of Legends. Is anyone still playing dominion? Riot has learnt its lesson from Dominion. ANet has learnt its lesson from GW. It’s time to stop the requests for different gamemodes.

LoL is a bad example, summoners rift has WAY more depth than a conquest map 5v5.

Hell you just made their point actually, Dominion IS conquest and dominion was pretty fail for LoL because of how few specific niche champs dominated in it mobility or bunkering.

WvW has a deathmatch GvG community growing.

Yes its pulling from PvP its pulled me away from PvP conquest. However its also the only reason I still play this game.

I used to mock WvW players as being bad, but inside the GvG community are the best players in this game bar none. This coming from an average GvG players that casually and with ease climbed top 100 in solo queue. Even the best in the leaderboards at least in NA are average players, I found the real beast of this game in GvGs. Next level stuff.

PvP is a joke the skill level is low because conquest does not attract good players its never has in any game. I dont want to offend anyone its just so clear as day for someone that has been fighting the ‘best’ in leaderboards and GvGs who is really the best players.

Well, you’re in luck. According to a german article Anet has listened to the majority and made a taskforce to implement Gvg.

I’d be happy with this if they based this on GW1 format, but it’ll be as you, WvW’ers, see it. A 20 v 20 zergfest probably.

Knote.2904:

LoL is a bad example, summoners rift has WAY more depth than a conquest map 5v5.

Hell you just made their point actually, Dominion IS conquest and dominion was pretty fail for LoL because of how few specific niche champs dominated in it mobility or bunkering.

Why did some champions dominate Dominion? Obviously, not because it is conquest, but because these champions were balanced for Summoners’ Rift. The third gamemode, 3vs.3, had the same broken balance for the same reasons. You cannot balance for more than one gamemode.

@GvG:
If you take all major flaws of GuildWars2’s PvP and created a gamemode out of it, then the result would be GvG. Skill effects cluttering your screen, the poor targeting system and the AoE cap, GvG has it all and brings it to the excess. It’s ironic to see 20vs20 in a game that was clearly not designed for it.

Butch you keep saying 20v20 but thats is the least common GvG. The majority of GvG is 5v5 by the windmill with alot of 10v10. Dont go based of GW2GvG.com matches that is is an very low sample size of the GvGs going on.

I also dislike 20v20 however there is a method and tactics in that play mode, more so then conquest I can tell you that. 15v15 is my cutoff for GvGs, 10v10 is the sweet spot where combos and blast finishers really help however there are other tactics that work just as well.

FirstBlood.7359:

Knote.2904:

LoL is a bad example, summoners rift has WAY more depth than a conquest map 5v5.

Hell you just made their point actually, Dominion IS conquest and dominion was pretty fail for LoL because of how few specific niche champs dominated in it mobility or bunkering.

Why did some champions dominate Dominion? Obviously, not because it is conquest, but because these champions were balanced for Summoners’ Rift. The third gamemode, 3vs.3, had the same broken balance for the same reasons. You cannot balance for more than one gamemode.

@GvG:
If you take all major flaws of GuildWars2’s PvP and created a gamemode out of it, then the result would be GvG. Skill effects cluttering your screen, the poor targeting system and the AoE cap, GvG has it all and brings it to the excess. It’s ironic to see 20vs20 in a game that was clearly not designed for it.

There are 2 things that determine what champs were better in dominion.

Conquest – Champs with insane mobility/escape and/or champs that bunker very well sound familiar?

1v1’s – Bruisers and duel “heroes” since there was less opportunity for teamfights and no one needs to “farm” in order to get their items/levels these champs shine.

It’s not that complicated.

And you don’t have to balance for all the game modes, but if you implemented death match arenas and found that players started ignoring conquest for that then you should probably change your priorities of balancing.

What’s funny is if they did balance the game for regular “death match” the balance of current conquest might actually be better.

Xom.9264:

Butch you keep saying 20v20 but thats is the least common GvG. The majority of GvG is 5v5 by the windmill with alot of 10v10. Dont go based of GW2GvG.com matches that is is an very low sample size of the GvGs going on.

I also dislike 20v20 however there is a method and tactics in that play mode, more so then conquest I can tell you that. 15v15 is my cutoff for GvGs, 10v10 is the sweet spot where combos and blast finishers really help however there are other tactics that work just as well.

Alright, then I was wrong. I keep seeing in the Gvg website and the WvW forums numbers going from 15 v 15 to 30 v 30. But still, you just want a deathmatch basically?

They just need to look at GW1 to see how wrong they are. In 2011, when I was last active, you could still find easily a group for Hero’s Ascent, probably easier than one for tPvP now. This is 6 years after the game has been released. The same applies to Fort Aspenwood, my game mode of choice – you could always find a match, long after support for most forms of PvP were abandoned. GvG was also lively, but not quite as much as HA.
The modes were just attractive enough by themselves to keep players interested for more than half a decade.
I can’t comment on the state of GW2 competitive sPvP because … well, my friends/guildies aren’t interested in it unlike the above two GW1 modes (which is a bad sign as well, but not the topic). Maybe it’s thriving away from my view, but I highly doubt it’s doing as well as GW1 competitive PvP.
Yes there were too many game modes. AB and JQ could have been rolled into one, FA could have been a more casual subtype of GvG, RA and TA/CA were too segregated as well, Hero Battles were too exploitable, etc.
But one single framework with the exact same maps, same game mode, same meta, same everything is too far into the other extreme. It creates ennui.
(And no, online RPG PvP isn’t like TF2. To think players can be satisfied with the same half-dozen maps and the same game type forever is utterly futile.)
Not everything was as much of a failure long-term as Team Arenas or low-end GvG. Don’t measure the state of GW1 PvP on only it. Measure it by it’s success stories.

Any person who thinks more game modes is wrong or is bad is clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed. Also, to any person who thinks WvWvW is real true PvP honestly just enjoys easy mode and like roflstomping mouse skill click PvEasy players………

More PvP games modes have been needed in GW2 for over a year.

I always wondered if the reason they didn’t put in new modes…like one similar to reapers rumble and dragonball. Is because they knew that the other modes would be more popular…then no one would play conquest. And they REALLY wanted conquest to be an e-sport.