Guild Wars 2

A thought struck me the other day. To those people who only play tPvP in games like this, it feels like you’re going to be forever disappointed no matter which game you switch to. After all, PvP is essentially something like Team Fortress duct taped onto an MMO. It’s entirely separate and doesn’t use any “MMO-ness” at all.

Things like WvW and open world combat are far more suitable for MMOs, since they are integrated into the main game or at least use massively multiplayer features.

Now we all know that MMOs are huge projects requiring large teams and many resources. We also know that great pvp games need a nimble team that can respond to balance issues and player concerns quickly – one reason why many of the most successful pvp games started from Mods of other games.

These two things are rarely compatible with each other.

Now, something like GW2 or TESO or EVE might be great for people like me – I’m a hybrid player that enjoys pve, pvp and large scale pvp too. But i struggle to see what’s in it for those who exclusively want controlled/limited pvp with no mmo crowds and no rpg progression. Seems like they would be better off with a different genre than “mmorpg”.

Of course, there remains the problem that there is no decent medieval fantasy dueling/fighting pvp game on the market. (afaik)

But our hopes for such a thing are maybe better placed on games like Dark Souls 2 rather than mmos i think. If only someone would make a source engine mod that clones Dark Souls into an arena fighting game, sigh.

On a side note, anyone remember the game Fury? :p

I agree that people looking for a perfect game will never find it.

I can answer your question, though. It’s the complexity. You’re not going to get even close to the dizzying number of choices GW2 has in a MOBA. Even though there are a relatively small number of top-tier viable builds, each one is made up of hundreds of pieces of information.

That might be true in the current crop of games, but it’s not true in theory. Proof: Take GW2 and spinoff its pvp into a seperate game without any mmo.

There, equal complexity, zero mmo.

Mouse-clicking my character to move somewhere, and having to do that more than 10 times a second, seems very unintuitive to me and appears to me more like a useless relic from the fact that some of the first competitively constructed games (DOTA) were in fact mods from games that had a different focus and structure. Therefore, more “open” movement, targetting, and perspective are aspects that I consider more suited to competitive play in the long run.

There is B I G need or market for great PvP MMO, before GW2 relase we was informat that this game will have e-sport lvl PvP and PvP is really important in GW2.

Some people like to play LoL, others like to play Minecraft and I like to play MMO PvP. Why? Because I like to have my own character all the time, my own armor and talk with people in the city. I also love MMO evets like christmas one and I do like to finish dungeon sometimes (like once every month xD)

I was palying PvE for years and now I just change my playstyle to PvP only, MMO is my type of game. I hate LoL and other MOBA games. I also dont like FPS games.

The problem with GW2 is that we need basic tools and systems for PvP.

It’s not true that there’s no progression in PvP. Believe me I play PvP in GW2 only for the gear and rank progression and bragging rights.

While you’re right that pvp is a modular feature to the overall MMO genre (for the most part), it takes far less resources to maintain than pve. All they really needed to do was release with spectator mode + custom games + leaderboard + replays + normal/ranked games and then just put a few guys on balance and bug fixes post launch. From that point the community could handle most everything else.

Now, I’m not saying that Anet is inferior in any aspect of their game; what probably happened was this: they announced the game in like 2007, they probably spent a tremendous time developing the modular PvE features (personal story, dynamic events, crafting, WVW), then by the time they got around to PvP (5 years down the road), their publisher (NCsoft) started pressuring the senior producers for a launch date and all the modular PvP features (spec mode, custom games, replays) got red taped. So they released PvP naked (but with the tournament idea to try and meet the demand of a competitive community without having to push back the launch date too much) with the intent of adding in the extra features post-launch, which was…. an interesting choice on the producer’s (probably not their fault, they just put everyone on pve first then got rushed by publishers) part because they also decided to release a PvE without any real “endgame”, so their was no real player retention other than wvw.

But now that the game is launched, we’re finally starting to see some of the PvP modulars making their way into the horizon, and once we (the community) get our hands on just a few of these features, we’re gonna take this kitten to the next level -and that’s a promise.

tldr; yes, in the past mmorpg’s have not suceeded as competitive PvP titles, but this is mainly due to these games being balanced entirely around PvE (WoW), and the gear > skill issues. Both issues are non-factorable in the design of GW2 PvP, it just lacked the modular features needed for community promotion/competitive play on release due to publisher/producer decisions.

for me, it is simply class-based combat.

most classes in FPS games are not nearly diversified enough in roles & customization options, but i played TF2 for 3 years since it did have very diversified classes.

i liked the design of HoN ( & by extension, LoL / DotA2 ) but click-to-move just doesn’t do it for me.

most twitch multiplayer is also focused 99% on gunplay. viable close quarters combat is an important piece of the puzzle for me.

There will be no balance in random PvP(S/T) (People will quit in the middle of the match, switch team (SPvP), etc).

Unless Anet make a special arena which need a party to join the arena and select the other opponent party or can be random, these PvP players will always be disappointed. For easy example: WoW. You will never find balance if you join hot join PvP (which in this case GW2 SPvP and TPvP (although its tournament, due to join solo feature and randomness its become hot join)). But if you play arena, you will find these balance (people will not quit (not balance in class)). The problem: arena in WoW almost barren compare to hot join PvP.

Warhammer online was good enough for me.
I played it for years off and on loving every moment.

Perfect isn’t really anyone’s goal, just combat/maps that stay engaging and features that can cater to your skill level.

Like if a game cuts leveling/gearing out of PvP, it for jesus’s sake better have a way to split up ques so that they don’t integrate everyone without SERIOUS consideration and planning about what they are doing.

Oh and pug PvP…
It better not be laughably bad… like conquest SPVP zerging… IMO this alone is most of the reason why this game failed.
If casuals find their puggy shenanigans engaging and gem shop items generally cheap/cool, the PvP would stay decently funded to pull itself together (you know, if the devs also, at all, set up PvP to make money…)

There were just so many mistakes by Anet its not even funny.

it is funny because I remember when they have interview before game relase, thay say that they are playing PvP in different games and they are PvP palyers and they really know how to make PvP good…

I like a lil dose of pve, and the persistant world. But ya I spend 90% + of my time in tournies or hotm .

Rieselle.5079:

That might be true in the current crop of games, but it’s not true in theory. Proof: Take GW2 and spinoff its pvp into a seperate game without any mmo.

There, equal complexity, zero mmo.

Not financially viable, though. Arenanet spent a lot of money developing GW2, and that wouldn’t have been possible without a huge base of PvE players waiting to buy the game.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Rieselle.5079:

That might be true in the current crop of games, but it’s not true in theory. Proof: Take GW2 and spinoff its pvp into a seperate game without any mmo.

There, equal complexity, zero mmo.

Not financially viable, though. Arenanet spent a lot of money developing GW2, and that wouldn’t have been possible without a huge base of PvE players waiting to buy the game.

Well, i did say spin off, so pve GW2 would still exist, and can be used to fund PvP GW2 (ie. the same as now, except pvp gets a separate client that can be downloaded for free. )

But putting that aside, i made that comment as a theoretical example of how you can have gameplay identical in complexity to an mmo but without any mmo-ness.
It wasn’t intended as anything other than a gameplay theory thing.

You are mixing the concept of PvE with the concept and intention of an “MMO”. Almost every well known MMO on the out right now have a PvP component to it built in (Only exception being Final Fantasy XI, XIV). And newer mmos that will be hitting the market are being marketed heavily as being PvP orientated.

This would not be the case if there wasn’t a market for it.

I would say PvP is as much a part of an MMO’s DNA as PvE is. PvE has an expiration date (assuming content updates are not being made with unrealistic frequency), at some point people will realize that they are in a hamster wheel constantly fighting A.I. in hopes of finding better gear to fight even more A.I. in the future. It’s not like the A.I. is smart either, they have a specific pattern, they are not reactionary. Fighting players on the other hand is a different matter. PvP is more akin to a sport not unlike soccer or baseball.

The PvE part of an MMO is like any single player experience with some co-op. Once you reach the max lvl, as far as I’m concerned the PvE part of the MMO is over. I’m not going to run on the hamster wheel, sorry. I’m sure many people feel the same way.

It is blatantly obvious the OP did not play GW1.

Because I already finished the story mode so PvE is done for me in terms of what I want from it :o.
So I do that when content which is relevant to me pops in.But after the story finished neither WvW or PvE is as interesting as PvP.

For me to like the PvP I need to like the combat system and the game modes. I really like Savage 2 and I still play it even though it is almost dead(only about 100 players max online at good times and there are a few more playing still Savage 1 but not that much).

Game mode there was only one: Destroy the enemy main building. You could build forward outposts and towers and technology buildings to unlock other units(classes). 2 teams usually around 16 people fighting. Each team 1 commander that has an rts view and places buildings. Others playing 3rd person(or 1st person if using ranged weapons but ranged weapons are weak, game is melee oriented).

Strategy and communication very important.

Combat melee with attacking and blocking… easy combat system not that complicated than for example Mount & Blade where you have to aim a lot. You can go healer or builder if you want to heal or repair buildings(and the builders get extra damage to buildings if attacking).

Client was a bit unstable and sometimes buggy and crashes. And maybe the people did not like the game idea.

Company decided to make HoN afterwards to make more money because games like that are more popular.

MMORPGs usually I don’t like the combat. Also did not like TERA which advertised as “true action combat” or something like that and I thought I also would not like Guild Wars 2 but somehow I like it. Not bad for an MMORPG with the bit dodging and blocking and stuff like knockback and stability.

Game mode… yeah the 3 points capturing is getting a bit boring but that Spirit Watch map with the orbs and the Temple of the Silent Storm are interesting(if team plays well and you know the timer of the buffs and where to go – just won with 4 vs 5 in tournament glory rank was about same only that the other team had 1 rank 20 more).

With interesting game modes even I can have fun – since I’m not that good of a fighter. If strategy is possible instead of only killing each other or standing at the points it is getting interesting.