PvP players = Second-class citizens.
No pvp content -> no one plays pvp -> no pvp content -> no one plays pvp ->
As a relatively new player (1 month) and very new PvPer (a few days) I will tell you that I do NOT think this is the real issue.
In PvP the other players are the content. That’s the point. It’s supposed to be something that doesn’t get stale because every player is different.
From my personal experience the issues are:
1. Class balance issues and abusive builds that don’t get fixed fast enough. I know there’s a patch coming up but it seems to be making very minor changes.
2. The entire PvP system is incredibly daunting and intimidating to a newbie. You get dumped in with little fanfare, and it’s very hard to get to a point where you aren’t getting your butt handed to you constantly. I’d imagine many people just find it too difficult and confusing and go back to PvE.
ETA: The only reason I am even giving PvP a chance is because of the even playing field. In fact, I’ve gamed for years and GW2 is the only place I’ve been willing to give PvP a chance, for that reason, and because most of the players seem nice (so I’m less likely to get abused.)
Tiered equipment is just even more of a barrier to entry, and would do the opposite of growing PvP.
(edited by Qaelyn.7612)
As a relatively new player (1 month) and very new PvPer (a few days) I will tell you that I do NOT think this is the real issue.
In PvP the other players are the content. That’s the point. It’s supposed to be something that doesn’t get stale because every player is different.
From my personal experience the issues are:
1. Class balance issues and abusive builds that don’t get fixed fast enough. I know there’s a patch coming up but it seems to be making very minor changes.
2. The entire PvP system is incredibly daunting and intimidating to a newbie. You get dumped in with little fanfare, and it’s very hard to get to a point where you aren’t getting your butt handed to you constantly. I’d imagine many people just find it too difficult and confusing and go back to PvE.
ETA: The only reason I am even giving PvP a chance is because of the even playing field. In fact, I’ve gamed for years and GW2 is the only place I’ve been willing to give PvP a chance, for that reason, and because most of the players seem nice (so I’m less likely to get abused.)
Tiered equipment is just even more of a barrier to entry, and would do the opposite of growing PvP.
Cool, very nice to hear a newer PvPer’s perspective on this! I agree that in general, PvP should be more about refining than pumping out new content like PvE is.
We’re seeing some major balance changes coming in early December, so hopefully a lot of the cheese will get toned down. It’s likely that it will take a bit for the dust to settle after such a big patch, but I think it’s going to be a good step in the right direction.
A lot of players and devs have also been talking about better tutorials/training areas. I’d be curious (and I bet some devs would as well) to hear what things would have made trying PvP a little more streamlined for you.
I’m gonna disagree here. Pretty much every balance patch this far has been PvP-based. All the discussion on balancing is around PvP.
Why would you need constant balance patches for pve? The mobs are all scripted it doesn’t make much difference
Balancing based on PVE is like.. the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard… not only do you get an extra 20~30 skills in PVE based on race which are afaik completely broken, the content is so mindnumbingly easy. If you had to balance PVE you’d balance it from the content side rather then the skill side..
Everything works in PVE; Phantasm mesmer? works, Full Zerk Frenzy 100b Warrior? Works/OP. Power Ranger? MegaDoubleOP.
No skill required, jam buttons and win. Oh and don’t start with fractals it’s not hard as in skill based difficulty, its Random difficulty and gear grind.
Balancing based on PVE is like.. the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard… not only do you get an extra 20~30 skills in PVE based on race which are afaik completely broken, the content is so mindnumbingly easy. If you had to balance PVE you’d balance it from the content side rather then the skill side..
Everything works in PVE; Phantasm mesmer? works, Full Zerk Frenzy 100b Warrior? Works/OP. Power Ranger? MegaDoubleOP.
No skill required, jam buttons and win. Oh and don’t start with fractals it’s not hard as in skill based difficulty, its Random difficulty and gear grind.
wow pvp is balanced around pve… hence why pvp died there lol
and yeah fractals are not hard
[Teef] guild :>
Just trying to clear something up—I believe when people talk about balancing “for PvP,” they usually mean as opposed to WvW, not PvE. For example, hammer warriors were already pretty good in zergs at the beginning of 2013, but warriors still got buffs over the year because they used to be so weak in tournaments. Some of the buffs were too much/unnecessary, but the point is they were receiving buffs specifically because of the tournament game mode, as they were pretty much fine everywhere else (except for maybe solo/small group roaming in WvW).
Edit: I just mean that it’s not true that professions are balanced for PvE, and I don’t think anyone in the thread was saying they should be.
(edited by NevirSayDie.6235)
They care about money which comes from PvE because people buy gems for clothes, minies, costumes, finishers … PvP does not care about that much and they do not care about pvp.
Have you not seen the assassin/ogre/skyhammer canon/8bit mushroom cloud/phoenix/phalanx etc etc finisher/armor models being used? All that came from the gem store. Pvper’s will spend some money when money they desire is presented to them. Problem, there is not much you can actually offer them outside of said weapon/armor/finisher animations.
PvP is just as Armors for Charr characters. They were made frugally, then people didn’t like it, so they don’t play them, then Arenanet neglects the whole thing because they are not popular… oh wonder why?
Honestly , every PvP balance change floods over to PvE and WvW making havoc there because something is maybe OP in a limited 5v5 controlled enviorment . second class my kitten
wait…
pvp was under developed at launch.
pvp was staffed lightly on the premise that metagame shifts provide their own content development, and so a large staff was unecessary.
so pvp is launched missing spectator, match making, ranking, and fun – without the resources to add any of these…
were wondering why anet hasnt committed the resources to address this problem?
probably because anet doesnt agree with that synopsis. when the pvp department head presents progress do you really think he says: my department fail bombed, give me more monies to fix plz?
The unfortunate reality is this… PvP in its current format is a fail. It is just notpopular enough to justify a huge amount of development effort with the current conquest model. I think that is why ANET has now reversed decision and are looking at other game modes. Once they pick the right one, if PvP becomes more popular, you will see more development around PvP.
not to mention that the current version of WvW is just better then s/tPvP. You get massive fights, duels, small party (team) and even capture points. Not to mention the rewards are better by far.
PvP as is, is just far too sterile and “clean”. Sure it has it’s challenges, but most of those comes in the form of experience.
Currently @ some T1 server in EU
They care about money which comes from PvE because people buy gems for clothes, minies, costumes, finishers … PvP does not care about that much and they do not care about pvp.
Have you not seen the assassin/ogre/skyhammer canon/8bit mushroom cloud/phoenix/phalanx etc etc finisher/armor models being used? All that came from the gem store. Pvper’s will spend some money when money they desire is presented to them. Problem, there is not much you can actually offer them outside of said weapon/armor/finisher animations.
I have seen them a lot in WvW yes … and now you have to finnish downed foes in PvE where they are probably used also. In pvp I see Rabbit, Dolyak, Wolf, Tiger, Bear, Shark etc … besides the finnishers you listed drop from chests in pvp with limited use.
to be honest, it was a huge mistake from anet to separate the WvW and the Spvp community in two.
The character, level, skins, achievements, rank, etc. should be the same for both modes.
@nevirsaydie
Balance changes based on Zerg V Zerg is just as silly as Balancing based on PVE..
It’s basically the same game mode in my eyes.
Warriors were overbuffed for SPVP too.. No one is safe from bad balance changes.
They do a lot for the amount of people they have and they’ve been getting a lot better about it by trying to keep you guys happy. They are more open, answer more questions, give out patch notes ahead of time that are open for discussion and listening to you. .
They admitted that balance of the game belongs to balance team not PvP team. That rises a question of what the PvP team is working on.
Evan Lesh did the leaderboards and custom arenas. What everyone else has been doing ? (Instead of assuring that they listen to our feedback and they have things down the pipe.)
No pvp content -> no one plays pvp -> no pvp content -> no one plays pvp ->
More like:
bad PVP → noone plays PVP.
Guildwars:
Bring your pve gear into pvp to show people you were actually skilled and played somuch pvp, you could afford to buy your pvp setup in pve.. (zkeys)
This is also showing that pvp was balanced since you didn’t have to switch out gear somuch..
iow once you were high ranked you could afford to get those nice skins from pve to show off..
Guildwars2:
No balance, no pve currency.. no interest in pvp skins/ jump trough hoops to get a skin you want.. no locker room for double skins so there is clogging of inventory leading to not wanting to experiment, sticking to 1-2 builds and back to no balance.. there is a serious lacking of having any attachment to the spvp side of characterbuilding.
no fame to gain and no place to gather to show off..
What i enjoyed about guildwars is that no matter what server you played on you would always find known players hanging around. (even the annoying spammy ones)
In guildwars 2 everyone is so seperated, only meeting in spvp servers if you are lucky.
In WvW its the same story.. I mean, i would love to talk to that awesome mesmer teaching me a thing or 2 at vale or Khylo but in a few days i wont remember who it was.. i also woudn’t recognize his gear since im on medium settings.
A big part of guildwars setup is getting recognition trough your achievements that can be read trough the kind of skins you have and titles you bear while strolling trough a particular town or instance gathering place.
Who doesn’t remember the “Ca$h” guild camping around cities doing nothing but show off..
Who doesn’t remember the six female mesmers with chaos gloves playing the flute in HA?
Who doesn’t recall knowing almost everyone playing in AB FA or JQ.. forming up quickly to cut in front of other teams on the timer ^^
Guildwars2 has boxed in the communities too much to be called a social game.
One can tell when they stand in the mists with immaginary tumbleweed rolling around their feet dressed in starter boots.
E.A.D.
@nevirsaydie
Balance changes based on Zerg V Zerg is just as silly as Balancing based on PVE..
It’s basically the same game mode in my eyes.Warriors were overbuffed for SPVP too.. No one is safe from bad balance changes.
Right, I’m not saying otherwise. However, the claim was “PvP players are second-class citizens” and the rebuttal was “but the majority of balance changes across all three modes are (rightly) made based on PvP.”
I agree that there have been some unfortunate balance patches in the last 6 months, but the point is that they were done based on feedback from PvP (forums and internal data).
@nevirsaydie
Balance changes based on Zerg V Zerg is just as silly as Balancing based on PVE..
It’s basically the same game mode in my eyes.Warriors were overbuffed for SPVP too.. No one is safe from bad balance changes.
Right, I’m not saying otherwise. However, the claim was “PvP players are second-class citizens” and the rebuttal was “but the majority of balance changes across all three modes are (rightly) made based on PvP.”
I agree that there have been some unfortunate balance patches in the last 6 months, but the point is that they were done based on feedback from PvP (forums and internal data).
At the same time this is true and false; when we ask devs about why certain common sense changes aren’t implemented Dev’s always answer “hey we don’t wanna split skills, wvw/pve are important aspects of our game and we want players to feel like they know what their skills are switching game modes” or when asked why the pvp balance team is doing such an odd job they will answer “There is no Pvp balance team, only the balance team, i.e pve/wvwvw/pvp” Sure yes most of the changes to classes have been because of pvp, but not all of the changes that are good for pvp have gone in because the game is balanced based on pve/wvwvw too, I said devs would be idiots for balancing based on those game modes but that doesn’t mean that they don’t, they actually do.
Balance aside, PvP players want content, and we haven’t gotten any since Skyhammer (all praise is given for this map though, which is awesome)
The argument should have been “Pvp Players; Second class citizens in regards to Content” Because we get nothing every 2 weeks, while PvE/wvwv gets new maps seasons skins etc etc etc
Also; in before Justin O’dell shows up and proves me wrong , who’s doing a fantastic job on these here forums.
You guys are missing the whole fundamental point of what pve involves versus what pvp involves. The dynamic part of pve is the environment/npcs. The dynamic part of pvp is the players themselves. Of course there will be more content updates in pve, because that’s what drives pve. Going by that logic, the updates to pvp (other than pvp maps) are balance updates. Its pretty obvious that every balance update in this game is based on pvp in one way or another. That means the real majority of updates in this game are pvp updates. Every live stream by the devs in this game is solely based around pvp as well….that should tell you something about their priorities.
Come up with a way to obtain PvE gear doing PvP, so atleast we can enjoy PvE updates without getting one-shotted.
Come up with a way to obtain PvE gear doing PvP, so atleast we can enjoy PvE updates without getting one-shotted.
You get one-shotted wearing pve gear in pve. That’s unless you are doing the most useless thing possible and running around in pve with pvt on and doing almost no damage. You have to dodge.
Am I seriously the only one who sees the obvious flaw with GW2 pvp?
An rpg game mode…. with no usable rewards…
You want to make money off pvp? Sell the skins, and offer earn-able tiered gear. Not necessarily a gear treadmill like wow, I’m ok with there being a best in slot… But give us something to work towards. Just like your pve model… ….. ….
I know you want to fix all the issues that wow has to offer ANet, but right now hordes of players are going back to wow for their Battlegrounds. Don’t let them win for such a simple and obvious reason.
NO, just no. You are completely wrong. You think tiered gear is the problem? You think arena in wow is doing fine? They have just as much problems as we do, they just have a larger player base built over 10 years that won’t give up on their characters easily. Wow’s pvp is absolute no example to gw2. Tiered gear would be the last straw in gw2 attempt at an healthy pvp. Most people came to play gw2 just because of no tiered gear. You think wow’s best pvp players like tiered gear? Reckful has said that if he was in charge, everyone would have the same stats in pvp.
Take that conversation elsewhere, wvw, pve, whatever. Tiered gear is awful.
Once again someone who can’t read
the lack of rewards is the problem. It has nothing to do with being uneven in stats… but everything to do with nothing to work towards.
Think…. then type…
This thread is really quite saddening. The majority of people that buy GuildWars 2 are people that enjoy the PvE side or WvW which is why they’re always so populated and constantly receiving updates, all those people will tell their friends about how awesome it is and so on & so forth. But when it comes to PvP right now it’d just be wasting time, rescources & money. Anet’s been a step ahead for quite some time now and they know what they’re doing. Small things like finding a broken build for a class that’s been there for months and all of a sudden becomes so broken & meta (Warrior & S/D Thief) seems to completely take everyone’s faith away in them but if you look at the bigger picture it’s not hard to see. A little bit of patience is all it’s going to take.
As someone who has played every single aspect of this game competitively, whether it be tpvp, wvw or dungeon speed clearing, I can honestly say everything is lacking.
The entire game from start to finish has nothing tailored towards skilled players. The only good thing about this game starts and ends with its combat, and even that is shallow compared to its prequel. The entire game is tailored towards casuals who are given incentives to log on daily to do living story and buy things off the gem store. Heck you can now stomp some krait mobs which is only even there so that people buy stomp finishers. We have like 4 development teams working on some living story while all the other teams are lacking on staff.
So no, its not just pvp players that are second class, its any player who is good at any aspect of the game. If you are hardcore in any way, then you are a second class citizen.
I feel sorry for the developers working on pvp. They have to go to work everyday to work on GW2 pvp, but deep down while they may never admit it, all this hard work to create something new, was a complete flop compared to the prequel that was easily the best MMO pvp launched to date. 8 years, almost 9 years later, and GW1 still has more competitive teams playing mATs than GW2 has competitive teams queing for tournaments.
R.I.P the days of complaining about izzys balance ideas, now we are lucky to get any pvp updates at all.
GW1 Rank 1 – 2 Gold Capes – [sC] [sup]
We’re the last part of the human centipede that is GW2 Development.
I’d post a bad speedpaint comic I made but probably would get infarcted again.You show me yours and I’ll show you mine!
OMG I CRIED LAUGHING.
I literally had to go to tumblr to blog that image… PRICELESS
Balancing based on PVE is like.. the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard… not only do you get an extra 20~30 skills in PVE based on race which are afaik completely broken, the content is so mindnumbingly easy. If you had to balance PVE you’d balance it from the content side rather then the skill side..
Everything works in PVE; Phantasm mesmer? works, Full Zerk Frenzy 100b Warrior? Works/OP. Power Ranger? MegaDoubleOP.
No skill required, jam buttons and win. Oh and don’t start with fractals it’s not hard as in skill based difficulty, its Random difficulty and gear grind.
This. ^
Though I’m fine with the development system but I think it should be reversed.
Balance for PvP should be the standard. Then if something is OP, UP, or redundant in PvE split the skill.
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
(edited by Daishi.6027)
We’re the last part of the human centipede that is GW2 Development.
I’d post a bad speedpaint comic I made but probably would get infarcted again.You show me yours and I’ll show you mine!
OMG I CRIED LAUGHING.
I literally had to go to tumblr to blog that image… PRICELESS
lol, weiners
We’re the last part of the human centipede that is GW2 Development.
I’d post a bad speedpaint comic I made but probably would get infarcted again.You show me yours and I’ll show you mine!
OMG I CRIED LAUGHING.
I literally had to go to tumblr to blog that image… PRICELESS
where’s the image? It got deleted?
I wish they would take skyhammer out of tournaments— but that’s a different topic altogether. Many players see no reward in PvP since you cannot bring anything outside of PvP except for titles and maybe some new honed skills and maybe a better build that you can guarantee a nerf on after a few months- but alot of players are for the ‘shiney’ things in gw PvE content- not so much the personal satisfaction of driving a banner through another players chest.
Personally I love PvP I cannot get enough of it- but in truth I wouldn’t know how to improve it, but I suppose that’s why I am a player and not a programmer. I agree there needs to be somesort of … boost to PvP morale in ways.
It’s not just that the rewards are minor and that PvP is separate from the rest of the game. It’s that PvP is incredibly newbie-hostile in just about every way — the difficulty, the poor training/tutorial, and the attitudes of many players, etc.
It takes a special breed to be willing to subject themselves to getting pounded into the floor hundreds or thousands of times until you become even half-way competent. GW2 is mostly a casual game and people don’t want to deal with it. Even when dying has little consequence, it’s just not fun.
And I’m sorry to say that the stomping feature makes it worse. Much worse. It’s one thing to run out of HP and die. It’s quite worse to be forced to sit there mostly helpless watching some guy drive a stake through your heart.
A better way of matching players by skill level might help, but I realize that’s easier said than done.
As someone who has played every single aspect of this game competitively, whether it be tpvp, wvw or dungeon speed clearing, I can honestly say everything is lacking.
The entire game from start to finish has nothing tailored towards skilled players. The only good thing about this game starts and ends with its combat, and even that is shallow compared to its prequel. The entire game is tailored towards casuals who are given incentives to log on daily to do living story and buy things off the gem store. Heck you can now stomp some krait mobs which is only even there so that people buy stomp finishers. We have like 4 development teams working on some living story while all the other teams are lacking on staff.
So no, its not just pvp players that are second class, its any player who is good at any aspect of the game. If you are hardcore in any way, then you are a second class citizen.
I feel sorry for the developers working on pvp. They have to go to work everyday to work on GW2 pvp, but deep down while they may never admit it, all this hard work to create something new, was a complete flop compared to the prequel that was easily the best MMO pvp launched to date. 8 years, almost 9 years later, and GW1 still has more competitive teams playing mATs than GW2 has competitive teams queing for tournaments.
R.I.P the days of complaining about izzys balance ideas, now we are lucky to get any pvp updates at all.
I agree
[url=https://] [/url]
I wish they would take skyhammer out of tournaments— but that’s a different topic altogether. Many players see no reward in PvP since you cannot bring anything outside of PvP except for titles and maybe some new honed skills
Is it though? As a pvp only player, would i really feel the need to run around in pve with that? No, i probably wont pve anyway. For me the reward comes from being good and getting better at the game itself, but it has to be enjoyable and respected enough by the community for that to feel worth my time. If that’s settled then all i need is a title here and there, maybe a cool looking armor, and i would never feel the need to show it off in pve.
I would even go so far as to say that the pve players would enjoy bringing their stuff to pvp more. Partly because i reckon its a bigger switch going from pve to pvp.
This is not about PvE only WvW only and PvP only people. Game fails when it comes to casuals who want to play all parts of the game.
And we want the game to be connected somehow. Total split of game modes was just a bad decision.
You do know we have multiple teams working on all aspects of the game concurrently, right? You can’t compare the output of one team to the sum of all output from every other team.
Justin is right (and he’s a decent enough fella, based upon his forum etiquette). It’s unfair to compare the output of one team to the cumulative output from every other team.
However, it is fair to ask why there are so many teams working PvE content and only 1 team working PvP content.
“However, it is fair to ask why there are so many teams working PvE content and only 1 team working PvP content.”
^This.
This thread never gets old
Living world team puts out changes that require new art, new game mechanics, new effects, new spells, new audio and more every 2 weeks.
PVP team can’t even put minor balance changes out once a month.
And arenanet still tries to argue that pvp players aren’t second class citizens? That’s ridiculous.