Guild Wars 2

Yo, I thought it would be cool if some discussion started on the daredevil and it’s place in pvp. Of course, we don’t know every card on the table yet (engi and ranger), and even the present cards in our hands might change with future balance patches and specialization tweaks with the upcoming expansion. However, it’s a good idea to have some discussion in order to help steer the development process in a positive direction, even with the little information we were given.

By the way, I play thief in gw2 pvp so some of the stuff I might say may be biased or slightly close-minded. But that’s why we need discussion; a collective effort will help bring about a tendency for these biases to reach neutrality through many perspectives.

Current thief role in the meta:
-The role of a thief in the current meta is to decap, act as a stealth bot, and +1 fights that the team is unsure of winning. D/p shadow arts is meta. 1v1s should really not happen unless one is forced to hold a node temporarily, or against another thief (and even then this is questionable, and I wouldn’t do this in a real game unless to get a quick decap). An average team fighter, but quite poor in 2v2s.
-Arguably, thief is mandatory for almost every team.

Thief role in the expansion:
-By the looks of it, thief will probably maintain the same role, because as of now, no other class has access to such copious amounts of stealth. Again, this might change, but this stealth ability coupled with the low health pool and little condition removal/armor will keep thief as a utility class.
-Staff is quite underwhelming. The autoattacks have nothing special about them besides moderate cleave damage. Weakness on demand is probably the best this skillset can offer. Staff 3 is not bad, but nothing great. Staff 4 is again alright, but nothing special. Vault has such an obvious animations and long cast time that this skill is probably restricted to cleaving downed bodies and as a good gap closer.

The main issue with staff imo is it doesn’t seem to have a primary goal. D/p is shutdown and burst. S/d is consistent cleave damage with avoid. Shortbow is mobility and utility. Staff is….weakness application and a bunch of other stuff? Staff seems to pick little pieces of every thief weapon set and puts them together, resulting in a weapon that’s not goal-oriented but seems rather…random. In my mind, staff should maybe have more of a “debilitating” mindset, which could include applying conditions such as slow and crippled. In addition, staff has no access to stealth.

-Thief will continue to run shadowstep and shadow refuge. The utility of these skills are imperative in competitive play. Most likely, we will see one physical utility skill (if it’s good enough, my bet is distracting daggers, but even then it’s debatable) as well as the thief elite. Speaking of the thief elite…

-The thief elite skill seems really really really strong. Depending on the mechanics of the elite skill, the thief elite may cause thief to be even more mandatory than ever before on a competitive team.

-The dodge mechanics are interesting in that they may provide more variety in thief builds. Being able to dodge and gain stealth through blackpowder allows s/p and p/p to appear more viable.

-I think the meta will shift towards having thieves run trickery, DA, and daredevil, with d/p or s/d and shortbow as the weaponsets used. D/p with the trait impacting disruption seems extremely potent.

Thief will probably be able to hold a point a little bit better but maybe daredevil will more-so actually allow thief to duel better bruisers better.

Obviously Warrior Guard Ele are the best point holders right now in the game and I don’t think Thief should be able to do that better.

I’m wondering if being able to potentially 6 dodging while dealing damage and gaining initiative/endurance is gonna be potentially hazardous for the game though. Some people may say “it’s a team game” but duels actually matter in conquest so I don’t think that argument holds any water.

I’m thinking the Jumper build may come back and kitten people off tbh.

I agree 100% with OP, on everything. I just want to reiterate the following.

Right now thief needs mandatory:

Shadow Refuge: only way of support for our team and also useful in personal situations
Shadow Step: Stun break, condi clean, gap closer
Withdraw: no other heal is better, not even the new one (HEY INTERRUPT ME IM HEALING) and even healing more when endurance is full in a dodge oriented build HAHAHA. It should be the other way round if they want to make it a good healing, and even then with that cast time I doubt would be good.

Trickery line is mandatory:
the extra initiative and the steal CD reduction are essentials.

Deadly arts line is mandatory:
Mug and improvisation are essential for the thief survival in pvp.

Staff is not so good, not to substitute d/p or s/d.
Vault: HEY LOOK AT ME, IM FLYING TOWARDS YOU WITHOUT STABILITY!!
No I dont even compare Staff it with Shortbow because a thief in pvp without infiltrator arrow its not a thief.

Elite spec trait line looks nice very nice, so nice as to make all the perma dodge haters come back from their caves.

But hey!! for the comfort of all those haters, I’ll tell you the following: A thief using the new elite spec wont be able to dodge inside his Shadow Refuge either because makes damage on dodge and gets revealed, or because the dodge is too long (DASH).

So either the thief does not use Shadow Refuge (HERE IS WHERE ALL THIEF HATERS SCREAM OF PLEASURE) or thief does not use new elite spec because I already explained before how mandatory is Shadow Refuge in PvP.

Peace!

I can’t see shadow refuge being used on Daredevil unless you take the dash dodge. The other two dodges will reveal you. Then there’s the Herald with it’s easily accessible AoE reveal.

I think Daredevil will start out as Bouding Dodgers using S/D+SB with Trickery and Crit Strikes, having the utilities Shadow Step, Signet of Agility, and Bandit’s defense until the meta settles. Depending on how much stealth denial there is you could take refuge though, if in it taking pressure you need need to use your dodges while you are blind or while the enemy is invuln/blocking.

I also think Improv will lose too much value on an S/D Daredevil, so I wouldn’t take it. You don’t need the extra steal item since you can disengage so easily. Also because Daredevil will have an extra skill type, the recharge potential loses value. Though having a signet, trick, deception, and physical skill in your bar means you are more likely to get a skill back, it’s only one skill and since you’re job is to poke and decap I don’t feel like you get enough value, which is why I think crit strikes will be better as it currently stands, though I could be wrong because Mug and Panic strike have a lot of value.

Shockwave.1230:

I can’t see shadow refuge being used on Daredevil unless you take the dash dodge.

DASH will also reveal you because it travels a distance bigger than the diameter of Shadow Refuge.

Considering thief needs Shadow Refuge and Shadow Step as utilities, if a thief decides to use new elite spec, it is very probably that the third utility is the stunbreak-block because of its low CD (15 sec non traited).

And yes, I also think the early builds will be s/d + sb

Fistandanthilus.6824:

Shockwave.1230:

I can’t see shadow refuge being used on Daredevil unless you take the dash dodge.

DASH will also reveal you because it travels a distance bigger than the diameter of Shadow Refuge.

Considering thief needs Shadow Refuge and Shadow Step as utilities, if a thief decides to use new elite spec, it is very probably that the third utility is the stunbreak-block because of its low CD (15 sec non traited).

And yes, I also think the early builds will be s/d + sb

Shadow refuge’s diameter is 480, the tooltip’s got the radius on it (240). You can still Dash within the refuge, but you have a bigger margin of error with it.

EDIT
I actually completely forgot about weapon swapping stopping dodge. This is also an option available for the bounding dodger trait, but it’s still not ideal because you may end up in a weapon set you don’t want to be in.

Shockwave.1230:

Fistandanthilus.6824:

Shockwave.1230:

I can’t see shadow refuge being used on Daredevil unless you take the dash dodge.

DASH will also reveal you because it travels a distance bigger than the diameter of Shadow Refuge.

Considering thief needs Shadow Refuge and Shadow Step as utilities, if a thief decides to use new elite spec, it is very probably that the third utility is the stunbreak-block because of its low CD (15 sec non traited).

And yes, I also think the early builds will be s/d + sb

Shadow refuge’s diameter is 480, the tooltip’s got the radius on it (240). You can still Dash within the refuge, but you have a bigger margin of error with it.

Indeed you are right, but the margin of error is small (120 which is very small), either you start your dash on the border of the refuge or you will mostly get revealed out of it

nobody remember staff mastery trait?
2 endurance for each point of initiative you spend is a lot of dodge

Eloid.4569:

nobody remember staff mastery trait?
2 endurance for each point of initiative you spend is a lot of dodge

If you do the math on that, it becomes at most gain 2 more endurance per second over time and at best you can spike yourself up 30 endurance in a 2-3 seconds, but with staff only. So essentially, the trait is saying you get one more dodge every time you spend 25 initiative in staff.

Seems like a rather weak trait in my opinion, especially when comparing it to rune of the adventurer or energy sigil.

D/p and daredevil wont be a thing. If you take Deadly Arts, trickery and Daredevil, you lack shadow arts and therefore some serious survival traits that keep the thief alive currently while heavily relying on stealth. With the intro of the daredevil you will now rely on evades but condis still run rampant more than ever so that remove condi on successful evade will be your main priority. So s/d’s evade will be some and of course the removal on the 2 return.
On the contrary if one took shadow arts then you would lose either a extremely crucial steal trait line or double bundle use and a good secondary heal. I still find sb to be more mobile than staff as it has vertical axis as well along with another evade. So like you said refuge and step are way to good to pass up on the tool bar for semi useless physicals and the heal is crap. The elite maybe way too good on a 40 sec cd and that might be the first on the list for changes.
Honestly the spec will be s/d-sb DA,DD,T with current dp utilities still most likely and the new elite.

Fistandanthilus.6824:

Shockwave.1230:

I can’t see shadow refuge being used on Daredevil unless you take the dash dodge.

DASH will also reveal you because it travels a distance bigger than the diameter of Shadow Refuge.

Considering thief needs Shadow Refuge and Shadow Step as utilities, if a thief decides to use new elite spec, it is very probably that the third utility is the stunbreak-block because of its low CD (15 sec non traited).

And yes, I also think the early builds will be s/d + sb

Dash range is 360, Shadow refuge diameter is 480. so you can still easily dodge in it.

I wouldn’t close out d/p +sb yet coz u can combo a stealth with ur dodge. Yes it can reveal you if you dodge once more in stealth but thats your fault then because you dodged in the wrong direction.

Agree that refuge wont be worth taking if you take the damaging dodge trait but there are other really useful abilities. so losing that skill doesnt come close to outweighing the benefits that DD brings

I don’t think not being able to dodge in shadow refuge should restrict people from using refuge….it’s possible to swap weapons in the middle of a dodge to avoid triggering the bound trait, and then use shortbow 3.

I think s/d will be the likely contender, but d/p might see use with the trait impactful disruption. As long as you think where you’re bounding,, daredevil d/p is possible.

With the concern on lack of shadow arts traits, d/p can still have enough sustain by smart positioning and vampirism. It might be more of a glass cannon, similar to crit strikes.

Aeroxe.8140:

I don’t think not being able to dodge in shadow refuge should restrict people from using refuge….it’s possible to swap weapons in the middle of a dodge to avoid triggering the bound trait, and then use shortbow 3.

I think s/d will be the likely contender, but d/p might see use with the trait impactful disruption. As long as you think where you’re bounding,, daredevil d/p is possible.

With the concern on lack of shadow arts traits, d/p can still have enough sustain by smart positioning and vampirism. It might be more of a glass cannon, similar to crit strikes.

Condi clear is a big issue for D/P thief without shadow arts. Especially since you are trying to run with the Pulmonary Strike trait over the condi clear trait.

Daredevil, acro and trickery. Could be an interesting combo for holding points especially on maps like foefire. Could even run marauder for damage. We’ll have to wait and see, thieves have a lot of weakness on staff and its quickly reapplied which is what will help them survive in addition to the dodges and ability to kite.

If they can run soldier or sentinel and be really hard to kill then I think that’s a great place especially if they can hold for a while vs 3+ which looks possible.