Guild Wars 2

Down-state itself seems fine to me, but rallying on enemy defeat is an awkward, ungainly system that detracts from PvP.

(1) Rallying is random

Two identical teams of the same skill fight each other. Both down their focus target at the exact same time, and stomp/dps the downed at the same time. The fight will be determined by lag, as whoever finishes first will rally their teammate. The rest of the fight will also not be close, despite identical performances.

(2) Rallying is gimmicky

If I am at 1% hp, and I see my team is about to defeat an enemy, it is advantageous for me to run into the nearest enemy damage to down myself, to free heal up to 25% hp.

For a game to draw spectator/esport attention, it needs to minimize counter-intuitive mechanics like this which only serve to disengage the audience. (“Why did he just do that? Oh. Huh. That makes no sense but ok.”)

(3) Rallying breaks immersion

To continue that last point; any mechanic which reminds me I’m playing an abstract math game, is less fun, for both players and observers. Suddenly vaulting to my feet because an enemy dies stretches suspension of disbelief.

(4) Rallying is unnecessary

All the above might be palatable if there was some design reason necessitating rallying… but I’m really having difficulty understanding what that rationale might be.

• Excitement at the possibility of getting back in the game? Surely downed-healing is enough for that.
• To get a losing side back into a match? Rallying actually snowballs the winning side into winning more, so no.
• To further strengthen builds that finish faster? No idea why this would be needed.

Thoughts/comments?

Rallying is the only feature that I genuinely hate in this game. There are other features that I feel could be tweaked or added, but this one blows my mind. I loathe it. If downed state is to stay, that’s fine, but at least make it so healing and teammate rezzing are the only means to get up.

+1 /signed

I don’t necessarily hate it. (Though I too struggle to find how it’s necessary) I think it would be better if you couldn’t rally while someone was finishing you, at least.
I wonder if this was to prevent people from leaving large amount of teams bleeding out?

tOss.9024:

I don’t necessarily hate it. (Though I too struggle to find how it’s necessary) I think it would be better if you couldn’t rally while someone was finishing you, at least.
I wonder if this was to prevent people from leaving large amount of teams bleeding out?

I’m sure this was the reasoning behind it, but couldn’t they do something to where if after 45 seconds downed you start regenning 5% health or something? Anything but the “Well, that thief I attacked 2 minutes ago just happened to be killed at some other place in the map. I’m up, I feel great, LETS FIGHT!”

felivear.1536:

tOss.9024:

I don’t necessarily hate it. (Though I too struggle to find how it’s necessary) I think it would be better if you couldn’t rally while someone was finishing you, at least.
I wonder if this was to prevent people from leaving large amount of teams bleeding out?

I’m sure this was the reasoning behind it, but couldn’t they do something to where if after 45 seconds downed you start regenning 5% health or something? Anything but the “Well, that thief I attacked 2 minutes ago just happened to be killed at some other place in the map. I’m up, I feel great, LETS FIGHT!”

Haha. Yes, it is a bit ridiculous sometimes. Especially the treb rallies.

I find rallies like any other factor, if you pay attention to it’s existence, and prepare for the possibility of it happening, it won’t bite to in the *.

I agree. Rally needs to be removed from PvP as it is ridiculous that one death can bring 4 downed guys back to life and ruin an otherwise close fight.

I still think there are imbalances between downed state skills (theif, ele, mes can break a stomp even with stability/warr has best secondary skill), but overall, I would be fine with downed state if there was no rally (and people couldn’t outheal damage on target while rezzing and people couldn’t rez someone before you stomped without interruption). Grumble, grumble…

I agree with #2.

How many times have you been downed in a 1v2 situation and the person you’re killing is super low, you’re actually punished if you DO down him as well, because you know you’re going to die so stop attacking and leave them at 1% hp instead of downing them because they’ll instantly rally and be healed.

Yea, I’d love to have rally removed from stomping, just to see how the game would be.

tOss.9024:

I don’t necessarily hate it. (Though I too struggle to find how it’s necessary) I think it would be better if you couldn’t rally while someone was finishing you, at least.
I wonder if this was to prevent people from leaving large amount of teams bleeding out?

This is something that also feels very gimmicky; downed really needs an option to release. But I think this has been discussed in other threads.

I’m not even sure rallying counters this tactic; in fact it may synergize with it since having targets to ping to death with downed #1 allows you to self-rally.

Rallying is sometimes interesting in 2v2s, when both side has one player down and you have to decide what to do based on how good the opponent’s downed skills are and how many interrupts/stability you have. From time to time, I get the excitement of interrupting the opposing stomp and then actually choosing to get my stomp off in the nick of time, rather than just rezzing.

However, those few times are not worth enduring the long-range rallies, weird/absurd teamfight effects, etc.

I think Anet should make rez time a little slower than stomp time, and remove rallying on kills.

Even in PvE it feels like a really odd mechanic—“I’m going down, better save that spider at low health so I can rally…”

Dual.8953:

I find rallies like any other factor, if you pay attention to it’s existence, and prepare for the possibility of it happening, it won’t bite to in the *.

I agree that a competitive player will study and attempt to take advantage of any mechanic in the game. That doesn’t justify said mechanic, though.

90% of the time after my Ranger has “rallied” I am dead in the next hit anyway and even when I am not, the spoken of randomness of “death” after “rally” is very disturbing.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Rallying is sometimes interesting in 2v2s, when both side has one player down and you have to decide what to do based on how good the opponent’s downed skills are and how many interrupts/stability you have. From time to time, I get the excitement of interrupting the opposing stomp and then actually choosing to get my stomp off in the nick of time, rather than just rezzing.

However, those few times are not worth enduring the long-range rallies, weird/absurd teamfight effects, etc.

I think Anet should make rez time a little slower than stomp time, and remove rallying on kills.

Even in PvE it feels like a really odd mechanic—“I’m going down, better save that spider at low health so I can rally…”

That first scenario is a good point, sometimes there is a spectacular save due to the “all or nothing” aspect. But, like you said, it’s not worth it.

Also, think of the alternative: if there were no rally, there would be an equally interesting decision about whether to trade kills to end up at 1v1, or to try to defend/revive your teammate and risk going back to 2v2.

As it is, 2v2 can’t become 1v1 due to the rally mechanic.

BarryF.1204:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Rallying is sometimes interesting in 2v2s, when both side has one player down and you have to decide what to do based on how good the opponent’s downed skills are and how many interrupts/stability you have. From time to time, I get the excitement of interrupting the opposing stomp and then actually choosing to get my stomp off in the nick of time, rather than just rezzing.

However, those few times are not worth enduring the long-range rallies, weird/absurd teamfight effects, etc.

I think Anet should make rez time a little slower than stomp time, and remove rallying on kills.

Even in PvE it feels like a really odd mechanic—“I’m going down, better save that spider at low health so I can rally…”

That first scenario is a good point, sometimes there is a spectacular save due to the “all or nothing” aspect. But, like you said, it’s not worth it.

Also, think of the alternative: if there were no rally, there would be an equally interesting decision about whether to trade kills to end up at 1v1, or to try to defend/revive your teammate and risk going back to 2v2.

As it is, 2v2 can’t become 1v1 due to the rally mechanic.

Well said. I love fights that start out big and end with the last couple of people duking it out with their last few cooldowns, low health, crippled, etc. Make it long and brutal and I’m in.

I HATE rally so many times some clown gets himself killed when the other team has multiple people in the down state…… They all get back up not just 1 all 3 happened at a keep fight today.

1 person get up for one death I could live it but all three got up. How the kitten is that skilled based game play that fight started 4 v 2 and we had three down when another from our team joined (glass ele in tpvp) was downed and killed that fast now its a 4 v 2 again but we already used everything we had so lost…. went from epic play winning a odds against us to pointless waste of time lost node and got zero glory for it.

I agree, really hate rallying. It just completely ruins entertaining fights as the first engagement determines the majority of how the fight plays out. So many games are just determined by rallies.

However the one thing I think the rally mechanic helps against is bunkers. That way the winner of a team fight wins by a land slide and has the dps available to clean up the enemy bunker before reinforcements arrive. A fight with only the bunkers remaining would be pretty meh…

Still I really dislike rallying. I think something a little less guaranteed would be fine, like when an enemy is stomped down allies begin healing 10% hp/s for 5s.

Xom.9264:

I HATE rally so many times some clown gets himself killed when the other team has multiple people in the down state…… They all get back up not just 1 all 3 happened at a keep fight today.

1 person get up for one death I could live it but all three got up. How the kitten is that skilled based game play that fight started 4 v 2 and we had three down when another from our team joined (glass ele in tpvp) was downed and killed that fast now its a 4 v 2 again but we already used everything we had so lost…. went from epic play winning a odds against us to pointless waste of time lost node and got zero glory for it.

That’s not a bad idea. So say in pvp, rally only effects the one closest to the stomp or something like that. Should probably still reduce the effective range to stem the “WTF?!” moments the mechanic sometimes causes due to the small maps in sPvP.

Rally it’s one of the best things on this game, not like all MMO’s ok, i did a little mistake so now i’m dead.. here is a second chance if you did a mistake, and also it’s the way on making the game more cooperative.. Not always is the dps on this pvp (for luck) you can change almost all match just by rezing good in one teamfight and cap the middle point..

Sorry if my english sucks (i know) but just wanted to share my opinion, rally makes this PvP lot more competitive for the enemy team, lot more cooperative for your team and make a huge difference between other MMO’s PvP.

Agreed, rallying is a pretty pointless mechanic. About point #2, from the other perspective, there’s absolutely no point downing someone when an ally is about to get stomped since they’re just gonna get rallied anyway. I can’t count the amount of times I’m bleeding out or getting stomped and my allies ignore me to go down someone even though he immediately rallies when I die.

I agree with you, Rally on pvp should be removed or at least nerfted (like range of effect)

majos.8503:

Rally it’s one of the best things on this game, not like all MMO’s ok, i did a little mistake so now i’m dead.. here is a second chance

So the player that plays to perfection in the 2 v 1 loses because you get a second chance over and over again if the other player is a bunker rezzing you again and again.

Its a terrible system… but wait we are talking about rally not rezzing. Your team should have to work to bring you back alive or you should have to make a choice self heal or damage the target. Automatic getting back up because your team just continued to attack and killed someone rewards zerging and burst not tactics. Right now it rewards brainless play like so many things.

Rally could just restore some amount of health (25%?) other than 100% and problem pretty much solved…. but the trouble is it might get complicated trying to balance it for different fight sizes. (Like 25% makes sense in a 5v5 or 8v8, but not sure it really makes sense in WvW where 4 people could die and your side is still losing,)

Xom.9264:

majos.8503:

Rally it’s one of the best things on this game, not like all MMO’s ok, i did a little mistake so now i’m dead.. here is a second chance

So the player that plays to perfection in the 2 v 1 loses because you get a second chance over and over again if the other player is a bunker rezzing you again and again.

Its a terrible system… but wait we are talking about rally not rezzing. Your team should have to work to bring you back alive or you should have to make a choice self heal or damage the target. Automatic getting back up because your team just continued to attack and killed someone rewards zerging and burst not tactics. Right now it rewards brainless play like so many things.

Hopefully he misunderstood and assumed we meant rezzing. Otherwise, he would literally be the first person I’ve seen to state they like the rallying system.

downed mechanic also prevents people to go full glass cannons…lots of gc out there can’t stomp someone because they’re probably going to be downed before stomping, this applies to thieves also due to the fact that downed skills actually continue chanelling on stealthed targets… At the same time downed make ppl to care much about team mates because rally a mate would give you advantages..imo

1.) Completely wrong. There are a number of ways for players to ensure they prevent a stomp on a teammate as well as the successful stomp on the enemy. Knowing the timing of stomping and reviving and which will be ensure your teammate rallies in any given fight adds to the skill requirement in PvP.

2.) While this might be true it’s a haphazard way to get a heal as you might receive the dmg late and end up downed after the enemy was stomped e.g. no instant revive. Not something I would attempt on the regular.

3.) That’s just your opinion. While it is relevant, it is not necessarily shared by all your fellow players.

4.) Removing the ability to rally would require some drastic changes to the downed state. HP pool would likely have to be increased and the heal made uninterruptible, otherwise downed state would just be a prolonged “dead state” which would just make the fights sluggish and make revive abilities more of a must-have than they already are.

Xom.9264:

I HATE rally so many times some clown gets himself killed when the other team has multiple people in the down state…… They all get back up not just 1 all 3 happened at a keep fight today.

This, too. Rallying goes against the philosophy that “you can’t hurt your teammates.”

Fourth.1567:

I agree, really hate rallying. It just completely ruins entertaining fights as the first engagement determines the majority of how the fight plays out. So many games are just determined by rallies.

Yes, exactly!

Fourth.1567:

However the one thing I think the rally mechanic helps against is bunkers. That way the winner of a team fight wins by a land slide and has the dps available to clean up the enemy bunker before reinforcements arrive. A fight with only the bunkers remaining would be pretty meh…

I see what you mean, but once one defender is defeated, the attackers only need a few seconds to revive a downed teammate. In the case that both sides defeat a player (if there were no rally system), you could argue that the fight was a tie, so the defenders deserve to keep the point. Moreover, last patch’s change to respawn timing mostly prevents bunker-respawn-reinforcement.

Just to clarify, we are talking about the automatic-rally-when-an-enemy-dies mechanic.

Not down state itself, or teammate-revive, or self-bandage.

Agreed!

Message Body length must at least be 15.

Purposely getting downed to get rallied? I’m not sure I’d recommend this as a good idea. I mean if you’re absolutely sure the enemy player is about to be downed, then I can see how this would be legitimate strategy, but given how quickly things can change in this game I’d rather stay alive personally.

What if the enemy team roamer shows up from invis/port while your teammate goes for the down and interrupts/puts significant pressure on him? You’ve now put yourself in a deliberately compromised situation that can cost the team the battle, because you wanted to be cute. Nah, auto-regen or self-heal during a retreat is always the safer option.

Getting and securing stomps and reviving is the name of game when it comes to securing victories in team battles. Making the choice between reviving your team-member and downing the enemy is an important tactical element.

In fact removing rally entirely would making the reviving situation worse. You’ve essentially cut out the aggressive form of action out of play(making the choice to go for the stomp to change the tides), making turtling a preferable method(bunkers, +heal to res, res skills). Res skills and res emphasis would be the most important factor as maintaining numbers in team fights will remain the most important factor.