Guild Wars 2

This discussion is not a “nerf or buff” discussion, it is a viability discussion pertaining to WvW/PvE and how it interacts with s/tPvP.

In PvE the spirits works pretty ok, however dungeons is somewhat a problem area. Too much AOE and too few places to hide them.
In WvW the AOE is off the charts, but so is the timescale.
In s/tPvP the smaller arenas make for a more interesting approach, the AOE is tuned down, so it is less of an issue, while the timer is perhaps a tiny bit too long or not?

Spirits, pretty much exist purely as a s/tPvP build and a dungeon supplement. They are viable, usable and effective. Come WvW and there must be some change.

One such change would be to remove the healthbar system from WvW altogether, and increase the timer slightly. Another system would be to buff the healthbar system immensely but remove the timer altogether. Either way, todays system cannot be used in WvW. However, what about s/tPvP?
Currently, i feel like spirits are in a good place. They were recently tuned down, it was a very reasonable nerf, nothing over the top or damaging. It made a build that was OP, less OP. However i also feel like the current timer+hpbar system works really well in s/tPvP and that a high HP pool (all spirits would have to be around Spirit of Nature or even tougher) or a long timer (makes them like mobile banners) would be far too OP for s/tPvP. Then again, Anet does not want to split skills, and i can understand that, as it creates more headaches, more balancing work, more potential bugs and so on.

So, what do you guys think? Could we change the current system in s/tPvP also, or should the system be split between the game modes to compansate for the difference in AOE?

No they are not in a good place. It is a BS spec which is:

1, Skill-less as the maximum dps comes from an autoattack
2, Ruins the game for everyone else – can’t see anything which happens at all
3, Not fun to fight against – fighting against someone who can auto attack with massive pressure is terrible
4, Makes the game unwatchable – cant see anything which happens
5, Makes the game a joke

This game will never grow or even stop declining until spirit ranger isn’t viable in pvp in any way. Only then can progress come.

Spirits are an unbalanced mechanic that is horrible in PvE and group WvW and overpowered in PvP. Here are the reasons:

1) They clutter the screen and protect their master from projectiles in PvP
2) They provide passive as well as active benefits that outperform classes to whom those benefits should be a signature move (spirit ranger having better protection uptime than a guardian for example).
3) Their playstyle punishes active play and rewards auto attack spam, yet provides a level of efficiency which most of other classes cannot match.
4) in WvW and PvE they die too easily
5) they require major trait investment to be even usable

In my opinion a rework of the mechanic itself is in order. Spirits should imo look like this:

Disclaimer: numbers are solely for the purpose of demonstration of my train of thought and could, or in most cases should, be a subject to balancing changes.

Sun Spirit: 1/2s cast time, 35s cooldown, 5s duration, HP reduced by 30% from what it is now. Ground targeted, range 900. On summon the Sun Spirit creates an aura of burning around itself, which stacks 2s of burning every second on an enemy standing inside of it, in addition enemies are blinded in an area when the spirit is summoned.

Earth Spirit: 1/2 cast time, 35s cooldown, 5s duration, HP reduced by 30% from what it is now. Ground targeted, range 900. On summon the Earth Spirit creates an aura of protection around itself, which stacks 3s of protection every second on an ally standing inside of it, in addition enemies are immobilized in an area when the spirit is summoned.

Lightning Spirit: deals damage and stacks debuff on enemies inside of AoE, on 3rd stack of the debuff enemies are stunned. Stunned enemies receive double damage.

Frost Spirit: 25% damage increase for those 5s
Water Spirit: Heals 4k HP in an area on summon (no extra heal for the ranger), heals 1k HP/s for 5s.

in addition the traits would be changed a little bit:
Spirits Unbound – not changed, spirits can follow you
Nature’s Vengeance – spirits create an area of effect spell when they are killed. Sun Spirit – lava font (increased radius one), earth – churning earth, water – healing rain, lightning – static field, frost – frozen ground
Vigorous Spirits – spirits last extra two seconds and their health is increased

Ranger would be fixed in these ways:
no more rewarding of an auto attack spam
no more passive bonuses present almost constantly
no more screen AI clutter
proper counter-play to spirits working in a way in which it was intended
on-demand utility which would allow for active play with spirits
having a direct, visible and immediate impact on the course of fights
reworked frost spirit would make a ranger very likeable for dungeon speedrun parties
reworked traits would make it so that spirits are not useless even in wvw group fights
improved support options and overall ranger viability

just have sportsmanship and suck it up. spirit rangers are not OP anyway. MM’s and warriors counter spirit rangers really well. l2p.

Spirits rangers are cancer to the game:
(disclaimer: they are not OP right now)

• They educated new/bad players to rely on AI instead of improving. ever since, MM and PU mesmers became a thing…

• Along side necro, they pushed the condi meta everyone hated over the top which caused the game to lose a large part of its community.

• They just add unnecessary clutter to the screen lowering the skill cap of the overall game (can’t do anything but spam AoE since all the pets make it hard to understand whats happening on a fight)

benefits of spirit rangers….

• Gives a sense false sense of accomplishment.
• Keeps a class with horrible class design relevant on at least 1 part of the game (rejected on both PvE, WvW)

Valentin

oh MM and warriors counter spirit rangers really well! All the other go 2#$@# NOOBS :P:P

I’m sorry but this type of comments its very insulting when as ele i’m working my butt off to weaken an spirit ranger and then he summons his elite and is in god mode!

Personally i have no problem with spirit rangers except when they use the elite spirit. BUT i can see that a spec like this is easy mode. No that there is not other easy -er mode classes and/or builds but please be honest guys!

spirits need larger HP pools to survive those aoe’s spammed by staff eles in tourneys.

Xaos.3257:

Valentin

oh MM and warriors counter spirit rangers really well! All the other go 2#$@# NOOBS :P:P

I’m sorry but this type of comments its very insulting when as ele i’m working my butt off to weaken an spirit ranger and then he summons his elite and is in god mode!

Personally i have no problem with spirit rangers except when they use the elite spirit. BUT i can see that a spec like this is easy mode. No that there is not other easy -er mode classes and/or builds but please be honest guys!

that’s why it’s an elite skill. it’s supposed to be strong and the most useful skill on a class. l2p. :P
’

This discussion is not about how boring or “OP” or passive these spirits are, but how to make up a system that would work in all modes, without having to A; Nerf the already not so great spirits into the ground and B; avoid splitting skills/functions between the modes.

How do we do that? I am in no way a PvP pro, so i got no idea how OP or bearable they are in top tier play, however what little play i have seen/partaken in, they seem manageable, albeit annoying.

Valentin.2073:

spirits need larger HP pools to survive those aoe’s spammed by staff eles in tourneys.

I agree with this. Spirits die way too easily. It’s not just staff eles but also necro overpowered aoe and lagnade spam engineers.

i want this build to be viable in wvw. it’s not fair that rangers excel in one area of the games only. rangers dont get invited in LFG and almost useless in wvw.

I suggest for WvW / PvE only. Increse the player cap from 5 → 10 (15).

This way a spirit ranger can provide substantive group support before they inevitably die the moment the fight starts.

This way groups will make use of 1-3 spirit rangers in wvw comps to make use of the good buffs.

Silferas.3841:

Spirits are an unbalanced mechanic that is horrible in PvE and group WvW and overpowered in PvP. Here are the reasons:

1) They clutter the screen and protect their master from projectiles in PvP
2) They provide passive as well as active benefits that outperform classes to whom those benefits should be a signature move (spirit ranger having better protection uptime than a guardian for example).
3) Their playstyle punishes active play and rewards auto attack spam, yet provides a level of efficiency which most of other classes cannot match.
4) in WvW and PvE they die too easily
5) they require major trait investment to be even usable

In my opinion a rework of the mechanic itself is in order. Spirits should imo look like this:

Disclaimer: numbers are solely for the purpose of demonstration of my train of thought and could, or in most cases should, be a subject to balancing changes.

Sun Spirit: 1/2s cast time, 35s cooldown, 5s duration, HP reduced by 30% from what it is now. Ground targeted, range 900. On summon the Sun Spirit creates an aura of burning around itself, which stacks 2s of burning every second on an enemy standing inside of it, in addition enemies are blinded in an area when the spirit is summoned.

Earth Spirit: 1/2 cast time, 35s cooldown, 5s duration, HP reduced by 30% from what it is now. Ground targeted, range 900. On summon the Earth Spirit creates an aura of protection around itself, which stacks 3s of protection every second on an ally standing inside of it, in addition enemies are immobilized in an area when the spirit is summoned.

Lightning Spirit: deals damage and stacks debuff on enemies inside of AoE, on 3rd stack of the debuff enemies are stunned. Stunned enemies receive double damage.

Frost Spirit: 25% damage increase for those 5s
Water Spirit: Heals 4k HP in an area on summon (no extra heal for the ranger), heals 1k HP/s for 5s.

in addition the traits would be changed a little bit:
Spirits Unbound – not changed, spirits can follow you
Nature’s Vengeance – spirits create an area of effect spell when they are killed. Sun Spirit – lava font (increased radius one), earth – churning earth, water – healing rain, lightning – static field, frost – frozen ground
Vigorous Spirits – spirits last extra two seconds and their health is increased

Ranger would be fixed in these ways:
no more rewarding of an auto attack spam
no more passive bonuses present almost constantly
no more screen AI clutter
proper counter-play to spirits working in a way in which it was intended
on-demand utility which would allow for active play with spirits
having a direct, visible and immediate impact on the course of fights
reworked frost spirit would make a ranger very likeable for dungeon speedrun parties
reworked traits would make it so that spirits are not useless even in wvw group fights
improved support options and overall ranger viability

I really like these ideas. Seriously, props.

Silferas’ post pretty much addresses most spirit-problems. The rework suggestion is especially interesting!!

Valentin.2073:

that’s why it’s an elite skill. it’s supposed to be strong and the most useful skill on a class. l2p. :P
’

Pretty sure most classes have a few elite skills that they think is inferior to a normal utility..

Valentin.2073:

spirits need larger HP pools to survive those aoe’s spammed by staff eles in tourneys.

I agree with this. Spirits die way too easily. It’s not just staff eles but also necro overpowered aoe and lagnade spam engineers.

For keeping the tradition you started LTP

And staff eles ? really ??? teeeheeeeee :P

And as for the elites, you have right an elite must be “game changing”
please give me one of the same caliber as yours and i will be happy
you will pop your elite i will pop mine and we will be OP together!

Eliminate spirit health, make them non-targets, reduce passive effect, have active effect destroy spirit. They should follow the caster without traits, and be able to be traited to not be destroyed when active is used. Spirits fixed.