Guild Wars 2

Tissitra.4153:

Kuya.6495:

As i explained to you dear, the reason why it’s ok that a marauder guardian can heal more than a dps ele or a dps thf is becauze healing and blocking is how a dh defends against an encounter. A thf defends itself by using stealth and greater mobility. Ele is the only outlier that doesn’t have a lot of outs.

Good dp classes aren’t the full glass cannons that blow all their utilities to kill and end up helpless afterwards. That’s stuff for amber leagues and it’s why trap damage nerf might be justified.

A good dps class should be able to sustain itself at least in a 1v1. Rev and war are good self sufficient examples. Necro could be argued to possess that with shroud but it seems like it relied too much on a single mechanic to live. Ele needs a buff in the self sustain regard because it can dps just fine but its sustain when it goes dps is not good enough for higher tiers pvp where you expect your dps to take care of themselves.

Necro is the one exception since the condi dps is so good that a pocket engi is used to keep it viable at higher organized tiers.

First of all, ‘DEAR’, I merely pointed out that his post was just a blanket personal attack against anyone who does not share his opinion.

So the reaons for the insane difference in sustain is simply ‘healing and blocking is how a dh defends against an encounter’? This is not really different than saying ‘DH need to heal and block a lot because they need to heal and block a lot’. If there is an argument hidden in this statement, then I am failing to find it.

‘Good dp classes aren’t the full glass cannons that blow all their utilities to kill and end up helpless afterwards’. Which part of this statement addresses the huge sustain difference I calculated above?

I agree with you BTW that ele needs a buff, but as I mentioned before I don’t see new buffs to sustain since the devs are moving in the oppposite direction.

Most of your post is composed of blanket statements not directly addressing the question: Why should DH have triple the healing of the other professions with the same hp?

I already answered your question.

You not liking my answer is what’s going on here because you want dh sustain nerfed.

In other words, honey, your question is rhetorical. You’re not really interested in an answer. What you want is validation.

Ragion.2831:

Tissitra.4153:

Ragion.2831:

Before it was “dh is trash”, “dh is the worst class in the game”, “kys if you die to dh”. Dh got the buff it needed now its “dh is broken”," dh is op"," anet why you do dis".

Dont you guys get tired.

Dh is fine. Unless you play thief, there shouldnt be a problem with dh. The way traps were designed is pretty silly but at least it doesnt break the class. It could have been much worse.

This post contains no factual arguments (I would not count ‘Dh is fine’ as one), but merely thinly veiled attacks against anyone who might not share your opinion.

To reiterate: balancewise, I see no reason why the healing available to DH on marauder should be literally 3 TIMES what the best builds the other professions with the same healthpool have.

How exactly is someone supposed to convince you to get better at playing your class based on fact? Dh is difficult to fight against but from my experience a good dh vs a good [insert class except thief here] will fight to pretty much a stalemate.

Before the buffs i said that if they buff dh (and they should) dh will be seen as broken because of traps. So many people reacted the same way you are reacting now, now look at the threads.

Im sure we can agree that DH is ony getting hate because of traps, so here is an excercise for you, check how many classes can avoid trap damage even after being pulled without the basic dodge and how often.

@Kuya, im very surprised you are part of this DH witchhunt. You were here when DH was often said to be completely trash because of its sustain. The sustain has been improved so if another class is lagging behind how is it DH’s fault? Ele is the way it is now because of bad development not because DH got an unfair buff.

I’m not really partaking in the witch hunt. I am extending an olive branch and recognizing that dh has many specs and amongst those specs there are a few that excell at punishing new players with little skill from the user. Such as a full trapper. I am willing to see such a spec nerfed to better the enjoyment of low tiers of play.

With that said, as you have seen yourself in this thread, even when a dh graciously accepts nerfs to noob stomping specs, still others demand that all dh specs must be nerfed, even the ones viable at higher levels of play such as symbolic and meditrapper. It seems some people get really irritated when they can’t kill something.

Lucentfir.7430:

Tbh, you can bring up total amount of healing calculations and all, but it doesn’t mean squat, due to various variables in fight that can occur in a fight, and most of it looks likes it’s using these skills off cooldown the instant you get them. Wings of Resolve is not instant, and sometimes even a mistake using over renewed focus when being heavily pressured, getting randomly CC’d mid leap or dying mid leap happens more than you think. This is what I think should happen because I main this class, and I play other classes as well.

-Remove Hunter’s Determination – This passive trait is just…kinda way too strong for a passive on CC’d trait proc. -Damage/Daze(traited)/1-5x Aegis/Stability, this alone shuts down so many openers and just flips it on whoever opens. It needs to be replaced.

-1-H Symbols – They could use a small damage shave, so it’s more in line with their cooldowns. Compare to GS/Longbow/Hammer.

Traps – In general i’d like to see something like Shadow Trap from thief. A active portion of the skill. Popping it early gives reduced cooldown, or gives another beneficial effect. Doing this will also stop the doubling down of setting traps down, and getting double use after CDs get back up

Test of Faith – Remove the initial damage, add about 10-20% more damage to crossing the line. Beta ToF didn’t have initial damage on proc before. getting knocked into it or pulled should be rewarding since you’re expending cooldowns to do so. If possible, fix shadowsteps so you don’t take damage for porting out or into it.

Purification- A small 5-10% shave should do it well. Shaving this though i’d like to see things like Litany of Wrath buffed longer duration and higher percentage Damage to Heal ratio, so we have a alternative heal, next to shelter for DPSers. Though shouldn’t be needed if the trap changes happen.

Light’s Judgement – It’s the only trap not ever used, even against stealth class it’s pretty bad. Either buffing to longer duration of reveal, or pulsing blind and immobilize.

- Agree about Hunter’s determination – though not remove, but just longer cooldown
- You point out that actual healing in combat is different from the ideal numbers. That’s true, but it’s true for EVERY profession. I would make the point that if the total healing available to DH in the ideal case is three times what you get on thief or ele in the ideal case, then you would expect this proportion to be about the same in non-ideal cases. More so if you factor in that the TOTAL cast time of ALL the skills that heal a DH outside of renewed focus (which grants invuln. while casting) andthe scepter symbol/aegis generation from shield 4 (which don’t heal at all on meditrapper and contribute at besr 5-10% of the healing on symbolic) is actually just 1,5 seconds (0,5 seconds purification, 1 sec wings of resolve, rest instacast).
- Here is how a 10% shave to purification would change the sustain of the symbolic build: The healing in the course of 30 seconds would go down from 30k on average to 29k on average. This is just to point out that if this is the only change in sustain, then IN TOTAL the healing would go down only by about 3%. Whichever way you interpret this number is up to you, but I don’t think it would be practically noticeable.

Tissitra.4153:

Lucred.1802:

20k every 30 seconds?

Not even with Mender’s. Not even CLOSE with Mender’s. Mender’s will do 11-13k healing every 30 seconds and that’s assuming you’re also not using WoR so you get its passive, and that you’re running and not activating Signet of Courage so you get its passive.

Using Demolisher’s, this is what I’m seeing on my guard (zero healing power):
-Purification (24s cooldown)
-Initial heal: 2192
-Trap heal: 6413
This gives 8605 healing every 24 seconds assuming something activates the trap and I’m dropping the trap on cooldown every cooldown. This normalizes out to 10,756.25 healing every 30 seconds.

You appear to have conveniently ‘forgotten’ about 80% of skills that heal a DH. Here is an actual complete count on marauder amulet; this count applies to BOTH the meditrapper and the symbolic build as listed on metabattle (symbolic gets EVEN MORE from traits):

8,5k from purification (24 second cooldown)
+2k from smite condition (16 seconds)
+2k from smiter’s boon (24 seconds)
+2k from judges intervention (36 seconds)
+4k from wings of resolve (26 seconds)
+6k from renewed focus (2k since meditation + 4k from wings of resolve recharge) (72 seconds)

I invite you to crunch these numbers to confirm that the average healing from using everything on cooldown is 0,855k per second or:

25,6k OVER 30 SECONDS

And all those other skills that aren’t purification have exactly what to do with a discussion about nerfing purification?

You’re moving the goalposts.

Tissitra.4153:

Lucentfir.7430:

Tbh, you can bring up total amount of healing calculations and all, but it doesn’t mean squat, due to various variables in fight that can occur in a fight, and most of it looks likes it’s using these skills off cooldown the instant you get them. Wings of Resolve is not instant, and sometimes even a mistake using over renewed focus when being heavily pressured, getting randomly CC’d mid leap or dying mid leap happens more than you think. This is what I think should happen because I main this class, and I play other classes as well.

-Remove Hunter’s Determination – This passive trait is just…kinda way too strong for a passive on CC’d trait proc. -Damage/Daze(traited)/1-5x Aegis/Stability, this alone shuts down so many openers and just flips it on whoever opens. It needs to be replaced.

-1-H Symbols – They could use a small damage shave, so it’s more in line with their cooldowns. Compare to GS/Longbow/Hammer.

Traps – In general i’d like to see something like Shadow Trap from thief. A active portion of the skill. Popping it early gives reduced cooldown, or gives another beneficial effect. Doing this will also stop the doubling down of setting traps down, and getting double use after CDs get back up

Test of Faith – Remove the initial damage, add about 10-20% more damage to crossing the line. Beta ToF didn’t have initial damage on proc before. getting knocked into it or pulled should be rewarding since you’re expending cooldowns to do so. If possible, fix shadowsteps so you don’t take damage for porting out or into it.

Purification- A small 5-10% shave should do it well. Shaving this though i’d like to see things like Litany of Wrath buffed longer duration and higher percentage Damage to Heal ratio, so we have a alternative heal, next to shelter for DPSers. Though shouldn’t be needed if the trap changes happen.

Light’s Judgement – It’s the only trap not ever used, even against stealth class it’s pretty bad. Either buffing to longer duration of reveal, or pulsing blind and immobilize.

- Agree about Hunter’s determination – though not remove, but just longer cooldown
- You point out that actual healing in combat is different from the ideal numbers. That’s true, but it’s true for EVERY profession. I would make the point that if the total healing available to DH in the ideal case is three times what you get on thief or ele in the ideal case, then you would expect this proportion to be about the same in non-ideal cases. More so if you factor in that the TOTAL cast time of ALL the skills that heal a DH outside of renewed focus (which grants invuln. while casting) is actually just 1,5 seconds (0,5 seconds purification, 1 sec wings of resolve, rest instacast).
- Here is how a 10% shave to purification would change the sustain of the symbolic build: The healing in the course of 30 seconds would go down from 30k on average to 29k on average. This is just to point out that if this is the only change in sustain, then IN TOTAL the healing would go down only by about 3%. Whichever way you interpret this number is up to you, but I don’t think it would be practically noticeable.

Longer Cooldown seems to be a quicker fix for this though it’ll still be a problem of stopping initiations in it’s tracks. Healing is different in many cases. DH for example I have to use the skill and make sure I use said skill properly, otherwise I’m left with less condi clear or no stunbreak. Compare to Engi and Warrior now, engi’s sustain wasn’t tied to any real CDs. their sustain stems from Regen mixed with Rapid Regeneration, elixer gun, boons and Bulwark Gyro. This was back in S2 and S3. Warrior Sustain pretty high now too. can easily reach 900 HPS and about 1k if you get dogged march to proc or another source of regen. But that sustain is tied to hitting burst skills which isn’t too hard considering Berserker mode burst skills can be quite spammable. There’s a reason why previous seasons a scrapper could just bully a DH off the point easily you know despite heals.

This is also another thing I don’t get either, you’re comparing thief and elementalist healing capabilities with a guardian when they’re all entirely different concepts, and the only thing comparable in your argument is the health pool. They’re nothing alike, Thieves can dodge about 6-7 times in a row, and access to invis which drops targeting which can be much better in some cases than a block. Ele’s healing in the past seasons, healing affected the entire team, not just themselves. They could keep people alive and prolong the fight for a long time not to mention dish out projectile hate easily.

Take into consideration that base Purification is 30s CD untraited. tuning it 10% tunes it to around a 7.7k heal in total(forgetting the regen), from 8.6k heal. That puts it under our other bigger heal Sigent of Resolve. for about 8.1k, 35s untraited. It would definitely be noticeable to those who use Focus Mastery over Smiter’s Boon.

Move along. Nothing but a bunch of crybabies here. L2P

Comparing different classes is like comparing apples to oranges.

Don’t get mad that DH is no longer useless. Could it be that the counter-play is just not fully discovered yet?

Lucred.1802:

And all those other skills that aren’t purification have exactly what to do with a discussion about nerfing purification?

You’re moving the goalposts.

If I am ‘moving goalposts’ than I am moving them FROM ZERO since the OP’s suggestions contained nothing at all about nerfing sustain. And if you like, you are welcome to show me if you can where I write in my first post to this thread that the 20k healing figure I gave there pertains to purification.

If you crunch the numbers, then the meta symbolic build has 1k healing per second, only about A THIRD of which comes from purification. In slightly different terms, if you wanted say to reduce the builds sustain by 10% (which would still leave it being over twice as high as what d/p thief of fresh air get) by only changing purification’s heal, then it would have to be nerfed by about 30% – from 8,5k to 6,1k. So meaningful shaves to the overall sustain are only possible if you either accept a rather massive nerf to purification, or hits to the other healing skills.

Lucentfir.7430:

Longer Cooldown seems to be a quicker fix for this though it’ll still be a problem of stopping initiations in it’s tracks. Healing is different in many cases. DH for example I have to use the skill and make sure I use said skill properly, otherwise I’m left with less condi clear or no stunbreak. Compare to Engi and Warrior now, engi’s sustain wasn’t tied to any real CDs. their sustain stems from Regen mixed with Rapid Regeneration, elixer gun, boons and Bulwark Gyro. This was back in S2 and S3. Warrior Sustain pretty high now too. can easily reach 900 HPS and about 1k if you get dogged march to proc or another source of regen. But that sustain is tied to hitting burst skills which isn’t too hard considering Berserker mode burst skills can be quite spammable. There’s a reason why previous seasons a scrapper could just bully a DH off the point easily you know despite heals.

This is also another thing I don’t get either, you’re comparing thief and elementalist healing capabilities with a guardian when they’re all entirely different concepts, and the only thing comparable in your argument is the health pool. They’re nothing alike, Thieves can dodge about 6-7 times in a row, and access to invis which drops targeting which can be much better in some cases than a block. Ele’s healing in the past seasons, healing affected the entire team, not just themselves. They could keep people alive and prolong the fight for a long time not to mention dish out projectile hate easily.

Take into consideration that base Purification is 30s CD untraited. tuning it 10% tunes it to around a 7.7k heal in total(forgetting the regen), from 8.6k heal. That puts it under our other bigger heal Sigent of Resolve. for about 8.1k, 35s untraited. It would definitely be noticeable to those who use Focus Mastery over Smiter’s Boon.

- Longer cooldown on purification WOULD indeed be quite effective, since purification actually heals for about 10,5k on the meta marauder builds because it also triggers a 2k heal using smiter’s boon. The numbers are as follows: If you wanted for example to reduce the symbolic’s build 1k/sec healing by 10% by ONLY increasing the cooldown of purification, then it would have to go from 24 to about 32 seconds (so going up from 30 seconds to 40 seconds cooldown before taking into account piercing light). I do think this would be more reasonable than a shave to purification’s healing. And while I agree that there is a limit as to how much purification can be shaved before it falls out of line with the other primary heals on guardian, the consequence here is simply that at some point the other source of healing on the meta builds need to be looked at too.

- Sure, you can always make the argument that different professions bring different tools and therefore their numbers might look differently. However, you can make that argument to argue for or against just about ANY kind of balancing aspect. I could equally well argue that a thief or ele should do 3 times more dps than any other profession because of how ‘unique’ they are.

My point in picking up thief’s and ele’s healing numbers is indeed that they share dh’s healthpool and thus the healing per second translates into sustain in the same way. Warriors healing for 1k per second (no idea how realistic this number is) would for example translate into a much lower sustain than what the symbolic build has because of the larger health pool on warrior.

BTW non of my above calculations for DH’s healing take into account regeneration.

1K healing per second for how long? Your scenario supposes the use of healing skills in rapid succession, meaning, they have to be on cool down. How long does a dh have to be able generate 1k healing a second oncd all cds are back up?

Kuya.6495:

1K healing per second for how long? Your scenario supposes the use of healing skills in rapid succession, meaning, they have to be on cool down. How long does a dh have to be able generate 1k healing a second oncd all cds are back up?

This is the average potential healing per second for as long as you want. Suppose you continuously trigger all of your healing skills/traits the moment they go off cooldown over the course of say 10 minutes and then divide all the HP this would give you by the time. The result is about 1k HP per second.

Did DH get some major buff prior to S4? Aren’t over half the issues you are discussing existing mechanics? Wasn’t DH a “noob killer” class that was “trash tier” in “high levels” of play?

How many backseat drivers does it take to ruin pvp balance? Just check the forums…

Tissitra.4153:

Razor.9872:

Do you think you can express your counter-opinions without lines like “you’re 100% wrong”, “most of your suggestions are outright bad or useless.”, “your post is nothing more than…”? That’d be great.

The wording may be off-putting, but he is making one valid point at least: it is quite likely that many of the DH players who ‘generously’ accept in their posts nerfs to say procession of baldes or dragon’s maw play one of the meta builds, which use neither of these things – and in fact, if you take into account their other suggestions (see OP’s post), the meta builds would be either mostly unaffected or potentially even slightly buffed by the ‘nerfs’ they are so graciously accepting. I for my part provided above some rather concrete calculations to underline where I see a major issue that can be depicted in factual numerical terms: healing/sustain.

Only accepting ‘nerfs’ that largely either don’t affect or even buff the meta builds of your profession IS NOT being ‘rational’.

I’m nerfing the effectiveness of trap spam in lower tiers which will curb the plethora of guardian players. This will also contribute towards solving the issue of guardian being too heavily stacked and becoming more powerful because of it.

The meta build changes will be nerfs to people who don’t understand how the class really works to begin with, and buffs to raise the skill ceiling and finally make DH competitive. At high level play, guardian continues to struggle behind most of the other meta builds that find their way into competitive teams.

Your theoretical numbers and figures don’t mean much when in a real life situation, classes like warrior, rev, druid and engi continue to out sustain DH builds as you can see from pro player duels. These are classes that a DH would need to be on par with since they fill close to the same role, otherwise there continues to be no reason to take DH.

It is therefore rational to balance these abilities by nerfing the passive random elements that rely on opponents being dumb, and buffing up the parts that require mechanical skill to pull off and reward them better.

Tissitra.4153:

The above calculation proves that this is false. BOTH major DH builds (marauder symbolic and meditrapper as listed on metabattle) can heal for over 25k HP in 30 seconds on average. The number for symbolic is actually EVEN HIGHER than that from using traits in the honor line:

+ 0,1k from every dodge using slefless daring
+ 0,6k from every aegis using pure of heart
+0,6k from every symbol using writ of persistence

Assuming 4 dodges, 3 applications of aegis (shield 4+virtue passive+hunter’s determination ) and an average of 3,5 symbols (sword 2 + scepeter 2, 10 and 6 second cooldwon respectively) over the course of 30 seconds, you get in addition about 5k every 30 seconds, so the healing available to the meta symbolic build using everything on cooldown is about

30k IN 30 SECONDS OR 1K PER SECOND.

Now the other two professions with the same healthpool as guardian are thief and ele. The best marauder builds for these according to metabattle are d/p and fresh air. According to my calculations, marauder fresh air gets about 11-12k healing over 30 seconds, d/p a bit less. So DH healing on symbolic is about THREE TIMES what these builds get. If you take into account all the blocks that DH has, it seems VERY hard to not see an issue with this.

This is just cherry picking data.

There’s a reason why fresh air is not viable, and thief sustain is focused around evades and not heals/blocks like guardians. Neither classes fill the same role as DH, so it’s not even worth comparing them. No matter what variant of DH you play, you’re a slow moving point holder and you NEED the sustain that comes with this role.

And of course, in a real fight you’re likely going to be poisoned the entire time, you wouldn’t be spam dodging as the endurance becomes available, you’re not going to be standing perfectly in symbols the entire time, the f2 is easily interruptable, the enemy can easily counter the heal by simply not walking into the heal trap and kiting the DH (wow counter play!) etc etc.

Opc.4718:

This is just cherry picking data.

There’s a reason why fresh air is not viable, and thief sustain is focused around evades and not heals/blocks like guardians. Neither classes fill the same role as DH, so it’s not even worth comparing them. No matter what variant of DH you play, you’re a slow moving point holder and you NEED the sustain that comes with this role.

And of course, in a real fight you’re likely going to be poisoned the entire time, you wouldn’t be spam dodging as the endurance becomes available, you’re not going to be standing perfectly in symbols the entire time, the f2 is easily interruptable, the enemy can easily counter the heal by simply not walking into the heal trap and kiting the DH (wow counter play!) etc etc.

First of all if you are to compare marauder DH with thief or ELE DH, then the most rational way to do it IS to pick the best builds on that amulet on these classes. According to metabattle, this is marauder d/p on thief (meta) and fresh air on ele (listed as ‘good’). Now the auromacer build which runs mender’s and is listed higher will indeed get more healing than fresh air, but why would you compare marauder DH with a BUNKER build. And for marauder, the healing numbers are as above:

DH symbolic (as listed on metabattle) 30k HP in 30 sedons
DH meditrapper (as listed on metabattle) 25k HP in 30 seconds
Fresh Air ELE (as listed on metabattle) about 12k HP in 30 seconds
D/P Thief (as listed on metabattle) about 10-12k HP in 30 seconds

The detailed computation for the DH builds is in my posts above for anyone to doublecheck. Similarly, you can check for ele and thief.

Now this is the estimated average healing in IDEAL cases, and the practiacal numbers in combat will be lower. However, if the ideal value of symbolic DH is TRIPLE what it is for d/p thief, then that ratio will be similar in non-ideal situtations.

Tissitra.4153:

First of all if you are to compare marauder DH with thief or ELE DH, then the most rational way to do it IS to pick the best builds on that amulet on these classes. According to metabattle, this is marauder d/p on thief (meta) and fresh air on ele (listed as ‘good’). Now the auromacer build which runs mender’s and is listed higher will indeed get more healing than fresh air, but why would you compare marauder DH with a BUNKER build. And for marauder, the healing numbers are as above:

DH symbolic (as listed on metabattle) 30k HP in 30 sedons
DH meditrapper (as listed on metabattle) 25k HP in 30 seconds
Fresh Air ELE (as listed on metabattle) about 12k HP in 30 seconds
D/P Thief (as listed on metabattle) about 10-12k HP in 30 seconds

The detailed computation for the DH builds is in my posts above for anyone to doublecheck. Similarly, you can check for ele and thief.

Now this is the MAXIMAL possible average healing, and the practiacal numbers in combat will be lower. However, if the ideal value symbolic DH is TRIPLE what it is for d/p thief, then that ration will be similar in non-ideal situtations.

Thief has 3 dodge rolls thus its equal to DH triple more heal. Get it now?

Opc.4718:

I’m nerfing the effectiveness of trap spam in lower tiers which will curb the plethora of guardian players. This will also contribute towards solving the issue of guardian being too heavily stacked and becoming more powerful because of it.

The meta build changes will be nerfs to people who don’t understand how the class really works to begin with, and buffs to raise the skill ceiling and finally make DH competitive. At high level play, guardian continues to struggle behind most of the other meta builds that find their way into competitive teams.

Your theoretical numbers and figures don’t mean much when in a real life situation, classes like warrior, rev, druid and engi continue to out sustain DH builds as you can see from pro player duels. These are classes that a DH would need to be on par with since they fill close to the same role, otherwise there continues to be no reason to take DH.

It is therefore rational to balance these abilities by nerfing the passive random elements that rely on opponents being dumb, and buffing up the parts that require mechanical skill to pull off and reward them better.

Before you write even more on your ‘concerns’ about the ‘grave dangers’ of the non-meta full trap builds , you might humor anyone reading this by answering the following simple question: what build are YOU personally running on DH? It would sure be ironic if the nerfs you are so ‘generously’ proposing would in fact largely not affect you, just as they largely don’t affect the meta builds.

I want to come back to healing and the obvious fact that your suggestions contain ZERO hits to DH’s sustain or survivability. In my very first post, I gave you the lower estimate for 20k HP healing per 30 seconds on meta DH. Your reply was that a) even for the symbolic build the healing is (direct quote) ‘no where as fantastic as you suggested’ and b) of the major DH builds only symbolic (direct quote) ‘approaches the kind of sustain that you mentioned’. Both a) and b) are completely false and in fact the actual figure I cpomputed in my above posts is even higher: 25k in 30 seconds for meta meditrapper and 30k in 30 seconds (or 1k per second) for symbolic.

Here comes the really ironic part though. In the same post you write – and I think you are actually directly referring to symbolic there – ‘The 1v1 sustain does not need any further touching because it’s just barely viable as it is.’ You might want to address either one of the following two questions:

1. Do you really believe that 1k healing per second is the bare minimum sustain to be viable in a 1v1?
2. If 1. is true, what is your take on the fact that both other professions that share DH’s healthpool d/p have less than HALF of that on their best marauder builds?

Ragnarox.9601:

Tissitra.4153:

First of all if you are to compare marauder DH with thief or ELE DH, then the most rational way to do it IS to pick the best builds on that amulet on these classes. According to metabattle, this is marauder d/p on thief (meta) and fresh air on ele (listed as ‘good’). Now the auromacer build which runs mender’s and is listed higher will indeed get more healing than fresh air, but why would you compare marauder DH with a BUNKER build. And for marauder, the healing numbers are as above:

DH symbolic (as listed on metabattle) 30k HP in 30 sedons
DH meditrapper (as listed on metabattle) 25k HP in 30 seconds
Fresh Air ELE (as listed on metabattle) about 12k HP in 30 seconds
D/P Thief (as listed on metabattle) about 10-12k HP in 30 seconds

The detailed computation for the DH builds is in my posts above for anyone to doublecheck. Similarly, you can check for ele and thief.

Now this is the MAXIMAL possible average healing, and the practiacal numbers in combat will be lower. However, if the ideal value symbolic DH is TRIPLE what it is for d/p thief, then that ration will be similar in non-ideal situtations.

Thief has 3 dodge rolls thus its equal to DH triple more heal. Get it now?

Let’s see here Daredevil 3 dodges rolls = Dragonhunter heals?

1 Extra dodge does not equate to being able to fully reset your life on top of stopping most damage.

Not to mention all of the passive blocks and active blocks DHs have on top of the heals and the invuln which resets some of those skills…

It’s not like Daredevil has 3 dodges and DH has 0.

Ragnarox.9601:

Thief has 3 dodge rolls thus its equal to DH triple more heal. Get it now?

No actually since your statement appears to be nonsensical as thief dodges don’t even heal last time I checked. EVADING AN ATTACK will heal DD, but not dodging as such. So the correct math is as follows: 3*Thief dodge=3*0=0 heal.

Sustain=ability to replenish your healthpool over time. This is different from the ability to avoid damage va dodge/block/stealth etc. If thief has a third of dh’s healing while having the same healthpool, then it has a third of the sustain. PERIOD.

Tissitra.4153:

Ragnarox.9601:

Thief has 3 dodge rolls thus its equal to DH triple more heal. Get it now?

No actually since your statement appears to be nonsensical as thief dodges don’t even heal last time I checked. EVADING AN ATTACK will heal DD, but not dodging as such. So the correct math is as follows: 3*Thief dodge=3*0=0 heal.

Sustain=ability to replenish your healthpool over time. This is different from the ability to avoid damage va dodge/block/stealth etc. If thief has a third of dh’s healing while having the same healthpool, then it has a third of the sustain. PERIOD.

I thought sustain was a mix of damage mitigatuon/recovery. Whether someone slides more in the direction of mitigation, or more in the direction of recovery, both cases can be considered “sustain” as long as each case carries a little of the other.

Tissitra.4153:

No actually since your statement appears to be nonsensical as thief dodges don’t even heal last time I checked. EVADING AN ATTACK will heal DD, but not dodging as such. So the correct math is as follows: 3*Thief dodge=3*0=0 heal.

Sustain=ability to replenish your healthpool over time. This is different from the ability to avoid damage va dodge/block/stealth etc. If thief has a third of dh’s healing while having the same healthpool, then it has a third of the sustain. PERIOD.

Srry but stealth is better than block cause Thieves first attack is 7-10k backstab + free disengage. Guardian does not have disengage at all we fight or die.

If you want to make suggestions what to nerf, make Guardian/DH, play for 200-500 hours than you can judge.

Ragnarox.9601:

Tissitra.4153:

No actually since your statement appears to be nonsensical as thief dodges don’t even heal last time I checked. EVADING AN ATTACK will heal DD, but not dodging as such. So the correct math is as follows: 3*Thief dodge=3*0=0 heal.

Sustain=ability to replenish your healthpool over time. This is different from the ability to avoid damage va dodge/block/stealth etc. If thief has a third of dh’s healing while having the same healthpool, then it has a third of the sustain. PERIOD.

Srry but stealth is better than block cause Thieves first attack is 7-10k backstab + free disengage. Guardian does not have disengage at all we fight or die.

If you want to make suggestions what to nerf, make Guardian/DH, play for 200-500 hours than you can judge.

Stealth isn’t better than a block it doesn’t stop damage any channeled skill still hits, any Aoe still hits, any cleave still hits, doesn’t mitigate damage all that much unless someone uses SA, all it mainly does is make players lose target so the Thief can reposition and lose pressure.

Only if it’s against another Thief or Any light armor class running no toughness and doesn’t have protection/Frost/Aura/other similar Damage reduction effects, and that is if it hits when they have 1 chance to land it…… On most classes it hits for 4K crit, the only time I have gotten it to hit for 10k was against a thief when I run my Da/Cs/Trickery build with Fury on.

And they don’t have free disengage if they hit you while in stealth they have 4secs of revealed, and if they back stabbed you they had to spend either a 40 second Cd or waste 9 out of 15 initiative not counting any other skills used in that time frame. Unless you mean the 60 sec cd that is used more for a Stun break/Condi cleanse.

And DHs can disengage they can use Wings of Resolve, Renewed Focus invuln 3 secs refresh all virtues, they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.

R O C.6574:

Did DH get some major buff prior to S4? Aren’t over half the issues you are discussing existing mechanics? Wasn’t DH a “noob killer” class that was “trash tier” in “high levels” of play?

How many backseat drivers does it take to ruin pvp balance? Just check the forums…

Depends on what your idea of “major” is, but when almost everyone else got a relatively significant nerf and DH gets a rather hefty buff to 1h weapon damage, a lot of people consider it so.

Prior to S4 if you could avoid traps you pretty much didn’t die to DH’s, as that was over half their damage output and 90% of their CC. Now it’s a small fraction of their damage output because they basically got a 200% on-point-only DPS buff because of how damaging the 1H symbols are, how easy they are to stack, and the fact that they cover the majority of a cap point and can’t be blocked. They’re still not very good roamers because it’s easy to fight around the symbols, but they have amazing point control coupled with good sustain coupled with decent burst and good overall DPS.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And DHs can disengage they can use Wings of Resolve, Renewed Focus invuln 3 secs refresh all virtues, they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.

WoR is 600 range, interrupted 99% times, RF for disengage? haha
JI ? you need target for that one, Sword 2 – you need target for that one. Disengage means go away from fight not teleport into another one.

Ragnarox.9601:

Tissitra.4153:

No actually since your statement appears to be nonsensical as thief dodges don’t even heal last time I checked. EVADING AN ATTACK will heal DD, but not dodging as such. So the correct math is as follows: 3*Thief dodge=3*0=0 heal.

Sustain=ability to replenish your healthpool over time. This is different from the ability to avoid damage va dodge/block/stealth etc. If thief has a third of dh’s healing while having the same healthpool, then it has a third of the sustain. PERIOD.

Srry but stealth is better than block cause Thieves first attack is 7-10k backstab + free disengage. Guardian does not have disengage at all we fight or die.

If you want to make suggestions what to nerf, make Guardian/DH, play for 200-500 hours than you can judge.

Still nonsensical.

Your previous claim that I disputed above was (from what I understood) that a thief having an additional dodge grants them sustain on par with DH. While you are quoting what I wrote there, you then for some reason start comparing stealth to blocks, which has nothing to do with your previous point or mine.

PS Not that this would be somehow relevant, but what makes you think that I DON’T have 500 hours of play on guardian?

Ragnarox.9601:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And DHs can disengage they can use Wings of Resolve, Renewed Focus invuln 3 secs refresh all virtues, they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.

WoR is 600 range, interrupted 99% times, RF for disengage? haha
JI ? you need target for that one, Sword 2 – you need target for that one. Disengage means go away from fight not teleport into another one.

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking as I clearly stated in that sentence

“they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.”

Which isn’t a problem to acquire a target most times since a lot of players like to sit range and attack like DHs with LB, Rangers, Reapers or on people you can target running between points again you don’t have to have them wishing the 1200 range you just need to hav them targeted…..

Reading comprehension a wonderful thing and yes you can use RF and WoR as disengages you just choose not to and die on point….

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking as I clearly stated in that sentence

“they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.”

Which isn’t a problem to acquire a target most times since a lot of players like to sit range and attack like DHs with LB, Rangers, Reapers or on people you can target running between points again you don’t have to have them wishing the 1200 range you just need to hav them targeted…..

Reading comprehension a wonderful thing and yes you can use RF and WoR as disengages you just choose not to and die on point….

Reading comprehension was not lacking there. What was lacking is a statement that makes sense since being able to JI or sword 2 requires a target that you will never get in time and even if you do manage to teleport away every other class in the game will be able to catch up with you and kill you anyhow. So there is no point to even try running away and you might as well just fight to the end.

And getting to the true topic at hand: the problem with DH isn’t with the DH itself, the problem is the fact that all the terrible players in this game (lots in this thread by the way) all got used to an elementalist healing their sorry kitten through the damage that was being put out. So once all the whiners got their wish of a nerfed elementalist, combined with a nerf to general sustain as well, a class that is built with the premise of being the sustain king (Guardian is the tank/healer baseline and it is not even the king in that domain, doesn’t change the fact that that is the baseline) makes everyone go insane because its main counter is now gone.

Yes the damage for a DH might be to high for the sustain they can bring, but if you want to nerf them than you need to do the following:
- Nerf all other damage from sustain builds in pvp, there is more than just the DH.
- Find a way to nerf it without destroying it in PvE. My elementalist really hates the PvP community right now for making it feel super clunky and unfun to even try playing. Nothing flows on that class anymore.
- Make sure the class remains viable and since it is barely viable at high end PvP I doubt you could do that.

Not to mention that the majority of DH complaints are because they are merging all of the different specs together. That is another strength of the DH, you don’t know which version you are fighting the first time around each match until it is possibly to late.

Azoqu.8917:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking as I clearly stated in that sentence

“they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.”

Which isn’t a problem to acquire a target most times since a lot of players like to sit range and attack like DHs with LB, Rangers, Reapers or on people you can target running between points again you don’t have to have them wishing the 1200 range you just need to hav them targeted…..

Reading comprehension a wonderful thing and yes you can use RF and WoR as disengages you just choose not to and die on point….

Reading comprehension was not lacking there. What was lacking is a statement that makes sense since being able to JI or sword 2 requires a target that you will never get in time and even if you do manage to teleport away every other class in the game will be able to catch up with you and kill you anyhow. So there is no point to even try running away and you might as well just fight to the end.

And getting to the true topic at hand: the problem with DH isn’t with the DH itself, the problem is the fact that all the terrible players in this game (lots in this thread by the way) all got used to an elementalist healing their sorry kitten through the damage that was being put out. So once all the whiners got their wish of a nerfed elementalist, combined with a nerf to general sustain as well, a class that is built with the premise of being the sustain king (Guardian is the tank/healer baseline and it is not even the king in that domain, doesn’t change the fact that that is the baseline) makes everyone go insane because its main counter is now gone.

Yes the damage for a DH might be to high for the sustain they can bring, but if you want to nerf them than you need to do the following:
- Nerf all other damage from sustain builds in pvp, there is more than just the DH.
- Find a way to nerf it without destroying it in PvE. My elementalist really hates the PvP community right now for making it feel super clunky and unfun to even try playing. Nothing flows on that class anymore.
- Make sure the class remains viable and since it is barely viable at high end PvP I doubt you could do that.

Not to mention that the majority of DH complaints are because they are merging all of the different specs together. That is another strength of the DH, you don’t know which version you are fighting the first time around each match until it is possibly to late.

1 you can easily grab a target that will pull you from whatever pressure you are under, I play DH I use this to make sure I don’t die needlessly, it’s not the optimal use but it is a use for it, and is effective at disengaging, just because you don’t use t as such doesn’t mean it can’t be used that way.

They have started separating Pve and PvP balance and I agree they need to nerf the damage on classes/builds that have too much sustain and damage, they have proven they can do this look at last balance patch they already started in a small batch of skills.

This suggestion literally just came to my mind but I just leave it here.

Dont nerf traps cooldowns, damage or anything but change traps to work in 2 phases. This would increase skill floor.

1) lay down trap 2) press trap skill again and it goes BOOM

flarezi.9381:

This suggestion literally just came to my mind but I just leave it here.

Dont nerf traps cooldowns, damage or anything but change traps to work in 2 phases. This would increase skill floor.

1) lay down trap 2) press trap skill again and it goes BOOM

This sounds almost as exciting Helseth explaining how the warrior mace f1 can be used to bait dodges. The gameplay depth would be endless.

I’d say make it more vulnerable to conditions – it’s always been most comfortable pvp wise as a zerker killer that drops to sustain/conditions, and although I appreciate that sustain has been improved intentionally, self-condi removal doesn’t really fit in with the metagame or the direction of the class as a whole IMO