Guild Wars 2

Anyone else get vertigo from the amount of head shaking that went on while watching ?
Discuss.

Memorable quotes include
“Mesmer’s main weakness is condition damage” (Not thieves apparently)
“Thieves counter mesmers by not allowing them to spawn illusions” (Wut)
“Thieves are still burst damage and their sustain options are limited” (Lol)
“Axe is the aoe damage weapon for rangers” (Yup trufax.

Thief kills Mesmer by preventing them from producing clones.

I liked how one of ranger’s strengths was “sustained melee aoe dps.”

Thief weakness:
“prolonged sustainability in a fight” (Withdraw, inf.strike/return, massive init regen buff)
“Weak to conditions”
I think they need to re-evaluate here, as the ability to engage/disengage completely negates weaknesses such as condi mostly, unless there is something like IP proccing 7s burns everywhere.

Warrior weakness:
“Can be overwhelmed by conditions if defenses expire” (Cleansing ire?)
“Reliant on adrenaline use…need to build up their adrenaline over time” (Cleansing ire?)
“Low amount of evades” (Vigor on stances?)

I’d say they have a LOOOONG way to go to ever meet their intended designs for classes.

Ryan.9387:

I liked how one of ranger’s strengths was “sustained melee aoe dps.”

Apparently Geomancy runes come built into the class…

Oh yea: “Hard counters are not something we aim for”

Diamond skin, 12s Zerker stance, necro condi transfer vs. engie, thief hard-countering every zerker besides warrior

TBH I left after the first 10 minutes of clueless rambling which seemed to center upon how running away from a warrior with Berserker’s stance and Endure Pain up is well designed gameplay.

infantrydivEU.9670:

TBH I left after the first 10 minutes of clueless rambling which seemed to center upon how running away from a warrior with Berserker’s stance and Endure Pain up is well designed gameplay.

Of course you left after the first 10 minutes, you were already preparing to make another QQ post, am I right or am I right?

a t s e.9614:

Ofc they would still be viable just because of the mobility but they would have to forget about winning 1v1s

IF you are going to be SO MOBILE that you can get across a map in 5s, shouldn’t you be pretty bad at 1v1’s. The simple fact that you can make 2v1’s and end them quickly would still be enough for such a mobile build to exist and have a strong presence on many teams.

OR…they could tone down the mobility a bit.

silvermember.8941:

infantrydivEU.9670:

TBH I left after the first 10 minutes of clueless rambling which seemed to center upon how running away from a warrior with Berserker’s stance and Endure Pain up is well designed gameplay.

Of course you left after the first 10 minutes, you were already preparing to make another QQ post, am I right or am I right?

I’ve had my fair share of constructive posts. But the mishandling of this game is definitely deserving of QQ, given how much potential it had.

I watched the entire 1 hr 21 mins and it was basically explaining the 8 classes, there weaknesses/strengths and why they have those, for balance purposes obviously. So you have play and counter play.

Well a individual class may be nudged one way or another, they are never going to change much from how they are now.

So if you like how a class works now, your good. If you dislike a class now, well tough cause its not going to change in any major way.

So there you go…

No point in qq’ing or trying to force your personal agenda on a class, you either take it or leave it.

You can win the Llama mini in future events too.

a t s e.9614:

So much hate towards thieves just because of S/D…. Thieves would be underpowered in this meta without S/D.

A non S/D thief has no chance against several builds already > D/D ele , condi engi , Axe/sword/ LB warr etc…

Ofc they would still be viable just because of the mobility but they would have to forget about winning 1v1s

Thief is my 2nd so dont give me bias cz you are sooooo wrong.

Thief needs to totaly lose a 1v1 on against a soldier/rabidtank. Going far should be a risky move of NOT getting caught.
Best mobility + apex of all zerkers + that it can kill a necro on point?

Old d/p was balanced. You had just enough initiative to fight for some time on a decaped node, then make a decision:
-stealth and leave?
-or stay and kill / be killed

Nowadays teef be pushing far like a braindead warior -.-

I wish they would turn d/d thief spec into a viable high risk high reward build. But as death blossom and dancing dagger are useless, c&d damage was nerfed and the dmg/survivability just sucks even compared to d/p it will most likely remain a distant dream.

BlackBeard.2873:

Oh yea: “Hard counters are not something we aim for”

Diamond skin, 12s Zerker stance, necro condi transfer vs. engie, thief hard-countering every zerker besides warrior

12s zerker stance, thief hard countering every zerker besides warrior? you mean besides medi guard?
oh my god, i hope devs don’t take these comments seriously.

I just read the summery on reddit.

At first I thought I was missing the context but it really does seem like all they did is explain how classes work……..or not.

As in, I’m not even sure they play the same game based on some of their quotes.

Just further cements my opinion that ANet is incompetent when it comes to class design and game balance. I just remember how the community had to literally black-mail them to get decap engies nerfed.

The fail is real. After watching all of it, I really wonder who the intended target audience was. There was absolutely no substance to any of it. Chap, Grouch and Karl were either stating the obvious or embarrassing themselves by trying to put a sexy spin on stuff like berserker stance. Actively react to my condi invuln, brah.

The current Ready Up needs to go die in a fire and be reborn like a glorious phoenix with a vintage format that puts player guests together with Grouch and involves a solid hour of balance talk. Start with the whole TCG roster first, including Tage and Helseth.

Well just as i always thought, they balance necro around having full death shroud…. i wanna see how they keep death shroud above 20% against decent team

If thief was balanced it would have limited sustain. Sadly it isn’t balanced and it doesn’t have limited sustain. It has absurd sustain because evading/dodging is immunity and they can evade 15 times in a row.

There was a dude that used to work for Curse that used to interview them all the time and call them out when the stuff they said wasn’t really lining up with what was actually happening in game. What happened to that guy?

Jonathan said they would look at stuff that needed to be changed, but I feel like what should have been discussed was how the CDIs on each class were going to be implemented in the July 1st build.

In my opinion the build meta needs to shift regularly to keep the game interesting because it has only 1 mode

• The ladders need to be fixed or reset regularly

• More viable builds need to be added to the mix

• Skill splits would promote variety and classes like Ranger could shine in multiple formats without being OP in one format and broken in others

I tire of 6-8 month “current metas”. For an iterative company that used to release a ton of content on a regular basis in GW1 —GW2 operates at a snail’s pace--. I miss that dude that used to keep ArenaNet honest with his interviews.

Iason Evan.3806:

There was a dude that used to work for Curse that used to interview them all the time and call them out when the stuff they said wasn’t really lining up with what was actually happening in game. What happened to that guy? .

You can’t rage against the machine when you are the machine..

#Quartersfordays.

Darnis.4056:

Iason Evan.3806:

There was a dude that used to work for Curse that used to interview them all the time and call them out when the stuff they said wasn’t really lining up with what was actually happening in game. What happened to that guy? .

You can’t rage against the machine when you are the machine..

#Quartersfordays.

True dat. Grouch is a legit player, but the design shifts that GW2 PvP needs are decided about four to five pay grades above his. Not much a small cog can do to fix the big machine. And as for critical community voices, most have either moved on to greener pastures, been banned, or are biting the pillow so hard it’s illegal in some states.

No, the issue is that most PvP players want to be high-damage solo bursters that blow away everyone they meet.

But the game designers envision a more strategic, team-oriented, sophisticated game. The see each class as needing a weakness that only a team mate can cover for.

Thus all the QQ on the forums from people who don’t have a team and want to be juggernauts all by themselves. Which is why we now see so many warriors.

Silentshoes.1805:

No, the issue is that most PvP players want to be high-damage solo bursters that blow away everyone they meet.

But the game designers envision a more strategic, team-oriented, sophisticated game. The see each class as needing a weakness that only a team mate can cover for.

Thus all the QQ on the forums from people who don’t have a team and want to be juggernauts all by themselves. Which is why we now see so many warriors.

You seem new here. If you aren’t jaded and angry by now then you have to be.

The speed of balance is simply ridiculous. Everyone knows strength runes are broke, but it’s been over a month now….

Ostricheggs.3742:

Silentshoes.1805:

No, the issue is that most PvP players want to be high-damage solo bursters that blow away everyone they meet.

But the game designers envision a more strategic, team-oriented, sophisticated game. The see each class as needing a weakness that only a team mate can cover for.

Thus all the QQ on the forums from people who don’t have a team and want to be juggernauts all by themselves. Which is why we now see so many warriors.

You seem new here. If you aren’t jaded and angry by now then you have to be.

The speed of balance is simply ridiculous. Everyone knows strength runes are broke, but it’s been over a month now….

2 months tomorrow I think. It was even stated on a Ready Up! by a dev that they were going to watch closely and see if things needed adjusting. So many of the things need adjusting. We could have had the “discussion” that we had on Ready Up! yesterday a month ago and starting addressing these issues then.

Maybe things are pretty well-balanced… for a strategically assembled team. But not for random hotjoins, or teams that are randomly put together.

Silentshoes.1805:

Maybe things are pretty well-balanced… for a strategically assembled team. But not for random hotjoins, or teams that are randomly put together.

ha good one. I’m pretty sure its balanced around randomly pushing 2-5.

So with the conversation about roles… Where does Anet want the mesmer to play? It currently has absolutely no role in pvp.

Got to the mesmer… Wow… they have no idea where the mesmer is actually at.

Edit: Can’t let everyone be good at everything…

“Mesmer is great at CC!” but…. warrior is better…

Key utilities! Ha!

I think the Mesmer’s there for the playstyle, not any special ability for team. I admit I do enjoy and am entertained by the “fool ’em” aspect of Mesmer.

Silentshoes.1805:

I think the Mesmer’s there for the playstyle, not any special ability for team. I admit I do enjoy and am entertained by the “fool ’em” aspect of Mesmer.

Except that’s not how mesmer actually plays against a quality opponent. A good mesmer always assumes that they have a target marked on them, because any good opponent will mark them with a target.

Most epic one for me: weaknesses of warriors (Dev quote):

Little ability to deal with enemy boons
Reliant on adrenaline to use many abilities
Can become overwhelmed by conditions if their defenses expire

=>If I read carrefully, the only weakness I really see here is that warriors seem to not be the best at boon removal.
I see a lot of professions that would trade all their weakness for this one.

Kicast.1459:

Most epic one for me: weaknesses of warriors (Dev quote):

Little ability to deal with enemy boons
Reliant on adrenaline to use many abilities
Can become overwhelmed by conditions if their defenses expire

=>If I read carrefully, the only weakness I really see here is that warriors seem to not be the best at boon removal.
I see a lot of professions that would trade all their weakness for this one.

I am sure they have a trait that does more damage if the target has boons on. Its like 3% a boon or something.

I watched about 20 mins and realised they have no clue what they are talking about. Warriors with near 20 seconds of immunity, 10 seconds of condition and fear immunity, a cleanse on about 5 seconds CD. Not to mention then soldiers ammy, intelli sigil gg and good night viena. The very notion they can be considered weak is unreal.

I am sure every thief could trade the s/d #3 for the highest HP in the game, best at stacking toughness and condition clear and damage immunity whilst still be able to put out high damage. Yeah, I think they would be happy to swap that……

DaliIndica.9041:

Kicast.1459:

Most epic one for me: weaknesses of warriors (Dev quote):

Little ability to deal with enemy boons
Reliant on adrenaline to use many abilities
Can become overwhelmed by conditions if their defenses expire

=>If I read carrefully, the only weakness I really see here is that warriors seem to not be the best at boon removal.
I see a lot of professions that would trade all their weakness for this one.

I am sure they have a trait that does more damage if the target has boons on. Its like 3% a boon or something.

I watched about 20 mins and realised they have no clue what they are talking about. Warriors with near 20 seconds of immunity, 10 seconds of condition and fear immunity, a cleanse on about 5 seconds CD. Not to mention then soldiers ammy, intelli sigil gg and good night viena. The very notion they can be considered weak is unreal.

I am sure every thief could trade the s/d #3 for the highest HP in the game, best at stacking toughness and condition clear and damage immunity whilst still be able to put out high damage. Yeah, I think they would be happy to swap that……

Where do you get 20 seconds of immunity from? o.O its 4s (5 with trait) for each…so 8-10 seconds tops (one of them being not on-demand)

Actually, I realized they DO know what they are talking about.

They just envision a much more strategic game than is typically played in pickup matches.

There is some Dunning-Kruger Syndrome on these forums, in my opinion.

I have seen some very effective mesmers… in the past atleast. I am talking mesmers that move their teams like an efficient machine from one point to another. I have seen a mesmer both fire the treb and manage to keep the treb up almost instantly by using their port to get the repair done in no time. They have a pretty effective use if the player is effective.

Silentshoes.1805:

Actually, I realized they DO know what they are talking about.

They just envision a much more strategic game than is typically played in pickup matches.

There is some Dunning-Kruger Syndrome on these forums, in my opinion.

Please enlighten us.

There is always Dunning-Kruger effect in online PvP forums. Uninformed aggressive, egotistical players make lots of naive assertions.

The developers regularly talk about how it takes time for people to understand the kind of game the classes were made for.

As an example, look at the Elementalist that was thought to be rather weak, until some people figured out how to use it, and it became dominant.

I will agree that there HAVE been examples where they introduced new skills, or boosted skills that needed to be nerfed.

Yet overall as I listen to them, I see they do have an understanding of the classes and what they are trying to achieve and the classes seem to be set into their roles pretty well, and fairly well balanced for an organized team.

The trouble is, their entire design requires an organized team working together for everyone to feel powerful and skilled. Playing solo with unskilled teammates, in lopsided teams against strong counter classes to your class, is frustrating.

Zhou.3605:

I have seen some very effective mesmers… in the past atleast. I am talking mesmers that move their teams like an efficient machine from one point to another. I have seen a mesmer both fire the treb and manage to keep the treb up almost instantly by using their port to get the repair done in no time. They have a pretty effective use if the player is effective.

So mesmers primary role is…….is to be a taxi cab >.> sooooooo intense !!!!!!!!!!!

With philosophy like this, I can’t wait for tol#2 watch the intensity of intense bunker battles. If you thought last tourney final match was intense then you are in for a intense recall because this time around it’s going to be more intense the the 15 min round intense round can hold. Intense!!!!!!

All is forever in vain

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that they have no idea how to balance the classes. It is easy to determine what a class SHOULD do. It is a lot harder to actually implement it. It feels like ANET has just given up. It took 6 months for a balance patch, which wasn’t really even a balance patch. They also didn’t have a plan in place to deal with the most OP skills until the last minute (when grouch posted some threads on the topics).

It really is time for ANET to either make some changes or just admit they have no idea what to do. They can have all the little catch phrases in the world, but if they don’t implement anything, it doesn’t matter.

Grouch being in the top 20 is not a good reason at all.

It’s about game design and being enjoyable.
Which for most people isn’t.

a t s e.9614:

People need to stop acting like they know everything and the devs don’t. Grouch is in the top 20 in both Solo and Team Q .

Balancing this game is a nightmare , some builds are broken just because of a rune/amulet. And they can’t please most QQers anyway.

Part of the problem is because they have 3 formats to balance for with a single trait set. This is why I believe they are so reluctant to do new formats for PvP. Every new format with an independent ladder means a 4th, 5th, 6th different format. Skill splits should happen sooner rather than later so we can get new formats in PvP. More formats means more build and play varieties.

DonRobeez.3560:

Grouch being in the top 20 is not a good reason at all.

It’s about game design and being enjoyable.
Which for most people isn’t.

like 50% of the comments about balancing here have no idea what they are talking, i’ll just tell you that.
i bet devs can duel any of them blindfolded, seriously.

“oh this class is obviously this, because i say so, even tho i clearly don’t play one and i have no GD idea how its played and i’m obviously a hotjoin hero, low tier yoloqer or a dueling queen carried by build, but it’s like this and it’s op, blahblahblahblah, devs don’t know sh and i know everything.”

Here is the Answer: they designed a type of team combat game that most people don’t understand, because the way to a win is team-oriented and is much more complex combat that WoW or Rift or whatever other MMO PvP game they are coming from.

The game designers know what they are aiming for. I am not so sure that there is a large enough audience for it. And they are financially constrained to a small development team.

The majority of the player base seems to enjoy:

1) dungeons where often you are following a script and use strength in numbers rather than individual skill, or

2) WvW zerging where you are part of a mindless mass relying on superior numbers.

Now that you earn dungeon gear in sPvP, these are your teammates in hotjoin or 5×5 solo Q. They want an easy automatically powerful class (like you get from a gear advantage from grinding in most MMOs) and often rely on others doing the work as they pew pew from a distance, dungeon-style. That’s my opinion.

the whole thing was one big joke, why bother talking about balancing philosophy when we’ve only had one noticeable balance patch in the past 8 months…

always the same, words words and more words…
noone is fooled anymore Anet.
you might actually have to do some work.

I watched 1/4th of the VOD, but it was too painful to keep going. It’s sad, this game has amazing visuals and animations, but the gameplay is kitten. Their excuse is “we have to balance for WvW, PvE, and PvP” they have been using the same excuse since beta. In the end you have a game with mediocre to poor PvP experience and mediocre to poor PvE. This game has become a casual’s stronghold.

PvPers have long ago found better options in MOBAs or other mmorpgs. If they haven’t yet, they will soon.

I think ANET does know what they are talking about in the latest Ready Up, but many of the people here are misinterpreting it.

This episode was devoted primarily toward goals, not current status. And for goals, everything seemed to fit quite well.

The problem is when people assume that those goals have already been met. They haven’t.

For example, the Warrior weaknesses (which currently don’t mean anything):

• Unable to remove enemy boons.
  As they mentioned in the Ele portion, this will apparently become more important in PvE soon. That said, Warriors still generally don’t care about enemy boons because they’ll just power through them anyway. Truthfully, unless Retaliation becomes a heck of a lot more common, this will never be a realistic weakness.

• Reliance on Adrenaline for many abilities.
  Right now, this doesn’t even matter. Adrenaline builds very rapidly and it only gets reduced by the Warrior’s choice. If they changed how rapidly it built (it would have to be a massive nerf, though), this could be meaningful. If they added a natural degeneration mechanic even in combat, this could be much more meaningful. Drastically increasing the traits and skills that are modified by adrenaline level would make this more meaningful. Right now, it’s a joke. Warriors aren’t reliant on adrenaline, it’s just a bonus.

• Easily overwhelmed with conditions once their defenses expire.
  The only thing stopping this from being a true and meaningful weakness is Cleansing Ire. The trait needs a nerf, and a pretty major one. Adding a decent ICD (15-20 seconds) would probably be enough. Removing the adrenaline gain should also be looked at.

Geff.1930:

PvPers have long ago found better options in MOBAs or other mmorpgs. If they haven’t yet, they will soon.

i wish them luck and looking forward to enjoy the best mmo pvp experience without them.

I don’t get the same impression that the devs have successfully created a game based around team interactions to cover each others weaknesses in which players are unable to grasp. And even if they did, it is still a failure because that means their systems lack clarity. There’s also no skills in the game that actually target allies in the first place so I have a hard time believing this.

Plus the game mode is hardly based off fair even fights where team synergies come into play. It is first and foremost about rotations and having someone on your team with the ability to stall until numbers can shift to your advantage.

But really the impression of combat I get is it is full of gimmicks, things that don’t promote choice and create mostly a one line direction of play. Pretty much every kit has a quick cast, almost impossible to react to cc effect → longer cc effect → burst. Answer? Use a stunbreak then dodge. Outside of that? Random dodge or have a build with enough stun breaks to get away from the reliable cc opener. This really doesn’t seem like intelligent play, its just a check to see if you have the right cooldowns.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I think ANET does know what they are talking about in the latest Ready Up, but many of the people here are misinterpreting it.

This episode was devoted primarily toward goals, not current status. And for goals, everything seemed to fit quite well.

The problem is when people assume that those goals have already been met. They haven’t.

For example, the Warrior weaknesses (which currently don’t mean anything):

• Unable to remove enemy boons.
  As they mentioned in the Ele portion, this will apparently become more important in PvE soon. That said, Warriors still generally don’t care about enemy boons because they’ll just power through them anyway. Truthfully, unless Retaliation becomes a heck of a lot more common, this will never be a realistic weakness.

• Reliance on Adrenaline for many abilities.
  Right now, this doesn’t even matter. Adrenaline builds very rapidly and it only gets reduced by the Warrior’s choice. If they changed how rapidly it built (it would have to be a massive nerf, though), this could be meaningful. If they added a natural degeneration mechanic even in combat, this could be much more meaningful. Drastically increasing the traits and skills that are modified by adrenaline level would make this more meaningful. Right now, it’s a joke. Warriors aren’t reliant on adrenaline, it’s just a bonus.

• Easily overwhelmed with conditions once their defenses expire.
  The only thing stopping this from being a true and meaningful weakness is Cleansing Ire. The trait needs a nerf, and a pretty major one. Adding a decent ICD (15-20 seconds) would probably be enough. Removing the adrenaline gain should also be looked at.

Agree with that. At the moment the warrior has no weaknesses. #2 best condition removal in the game is not a weakness and adrenaline is always up. Watching the warrior streams shows that Adrenaline is max long before the cooldown for the F1 ability is up agin

Lupanic.6502:

Agree with that. At the moment the warrior has no weaknesses. #2 best condition removal in the game is not a weakness and adrenaline is always up. Watching the warrior streams shows that Adrenaline is max long before the cooldown for the F1 ability is up agin

Thing is, some Warriors want their adrenaline bar to remain full. Especially when alot of traits rely on it to be so. Quick adrenaline gain allows one that does rely on such to spend their burst and quickly regain the lost trait bonuses much quicker to recover.