Guild Wars 2

Because that Ele thread was surprisingly enlightening, disregarding the OP of the thread and listening to the more realistic inputs of others.

Mesmers are fine where they’re at… Just add some form of counterplay against them.

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
  “but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.
• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

Otherwise, keep your 7k burst dmgs in Stealth, keep your stunlocks, keep your stealthy durations. I just want to be able to outplay you… let there be more skill involved for Mesmers please.

#FlameShieldEngaged

So you want to be able to outplay mesmer….. by dumbing the class down for you.

Here’s a novel idea. How about you increase the skill of other classes by increasing their access to skills. In otherwords, giving your favorite class tools with which to add counterplay.

Otherwise just another dumb thread.

Saiyan.1704:

Because that Ele thread was surprisingly enlightening, disregarding the OP of the thread and listening to the more realistic inputs of others.

Mesmers are fine where they’re at… Just add some form of counterplay against them.

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilitied
  “but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.
• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

Otherwise, keep your 7k burst dmgs in Stealth, keep your stunlocks, keep your stealthy durations. I just want to be able to outplay you… let there be more skill involved for Mesmers please.

#FlameShieldEngaged

I stopped reading at “abilitied”

Ross Biddle.2367:

So you want to be able to outplay mesmer….. by dumbing the class down for you.

Here’s a novel idea. How about you increase the skill of other classes by increasing their access to skills. In otherwords, giving your favorite class tools with which to add counterplay.

Otherwise just another dumb thread.

Because adding tools for 6 other classes is more difficult than fixing the single class that’s the culprit… lol.

How did my suggestions dumb down the class, when it promotes strategic play rather than the usial 1 – 2 – 3 button rotations.

I surely hope others offer better argument than the second post here.

Trigr.6481:

I stopped reading at “abilitied”

Fized. Sory tpos must be anoying for yuo.

You have condi guard build in your signature, how are mesmers are problem for you?

sephiroth.4217:

You have condi guard build in your signature, how are mesmers are problem for you?

-Lack of sustains
-Our bursts comes from the high cd JI/PF/ZF and is negated by a single shatter cleanse.
-Higher risks in general

There’s a reason why Burn Guards arnt a thing in tournament play but Berserker Mesmers are. In short, I get easily outplayed but they don’t. If you have more inquiries I recommend visiting the Guard forums.

Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
“but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.

So, i guess this should be the case for all other classes, too? Thieves will so hate you for this.

Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

No, 3 clones are 3 dazes. That’s how shatters work.

Wow, this thread burned down quickly, so much for a flame shield.

Needs more condi removal.
I’m thinking, make traited daze mantra only stun if you interrupt, burn PU and the person who thought of it to the ground (not really anet plz don’t ban me) and see where it goes from there.

We need more balance patches, more frequently, more than anything.

i don’t play mesmer so i can’t make much of an informed decision, but they just need a slight dps nerf in some way so their burst is managable. Their defensive options make it viable in the long run.

Timiok.1048:

Wow, this thread burned down quickly, so much for a flame shield.

I receive it as much as I give but.. no one has given a solid rebuttal to my original post. They just saw another “nerf mesmer” thread and automatically discredit it without providing any reasonable justification.

@Poxxia
I agree. More than one view on a topic broaderns the spectrum.
From my personal experiences and tournament observations, Mesmers are a hair bit more over powered in the 1v1 area considering I saw one down an Ele and almost immediately downed a Thief with a single Shatter burst when that Thief came to +1. I also saw a Mesmer surprise burst an Ele to half health, forcing the Ele off point. Again, these scenarios happened at last weekend’s tourney – these players weren’t amateurs.

That’s my reasoning behind my original post. Mesmers only need minor mechanical nerfs to make them outplayable and on par with other classes.

I don’t agree with these suggestions.

15% slower clones on shatter? F3 nerf? What is the point of that?

Any potential sealth nerfs should also affect all other classes – thief, engi, ranger and anyone using trapper runes (ie Dragonhunter in the future).

Only CS, PU, BD and MoD need fixing, everything else is fine.

Bursting an ele to half health is hardly op, every class can do this. It just doesn’t do much since the ele heals to full during the next few seconds. So unless you have high sustained damage, you will never kill them.

/edit: To add to Curunen’s post. Damage needs to be toned down across the board, if any. Mesmer auto attacks are actually pretty weak compared to those of other classes (GS is only good, because it can reliably proc Fire/Air on cd).

I have a better solution for this problem. And any problem for that matter. You have to go to the root of it. What is the cause? Answer: ANET. Therefore, when ANET shuts down and the game is run by another company, the problem will be immediately fixed. Everything else, is for forum battles.

Yes, let EA handle this, it will be so much better… /sarcasm

Curunen.8729:

I don’t agree with these suggestions.

15% slower clones on shatter? F3 nerf? What is the point of that?

Any potential sealth nerfs should also affect all other classes – thief, engi, ranger and anyone using trapper runes (ie Dragonhunter in the future).

Only CS, PU, BD and MoD need fixing, everything else is fine.

Mesmers can completely remove 5 stacks worth of stability from his single F3 ability. Considering all the other boon removals we have in the game, a Mesmer shouldn’t be able to remove it due to his simple F3 Stun rotations. The Mesmer has numerous other boon strips in the game, he doesn’t need those utilities if he has his F3. I feel it’s too easy for a Mesmer to do so – it needs to count as 1 stack removal not 5.

As for the 15% speed reduction to clone movement on Shatter activation, I wanted to add some form of counterplay to the Mesmer without removing his skills (CS, PU, etc) effectiveness.

Those classes don’t need the same nerfs, just like how Ele’s burns don’t need the same nerfs as Guardian’s burns. The other classes with stealth effects can be outplayed and they’re definitely not as effective as the Mesmer when he’s in stealth.

Iavra.8510:

Bursting an ele to half health is hardly op, every class can do this. It just doesn’t do much since the ele heals to full during the next few seconds. So unless you have high sustained damage, you will never kill them.

/edit: To add to Curunen’s post. Damage needs to be toned down across the board, if any. Mesmer auto attacks are actually pretty weak compared to those of other classes (GS is only good, because it can reliably proc Fire/Air on cd).

The other classes can be seen from miles away and is hardly comparable to a Mesmer’s instant burst and stunlock abilities. In short, Mesmers are less counterable.

Mesmers don’t need a huge nerf because I’ve seen them get bursted down in one clean swoop by two Marauder classes (or 1 cele, 1 marauder)…. but I’ve seen a Mesmer down a bunker by himself – quickly and easily. There can be better input than my suggestions for sure, I just think that’s the type of mechanical nerfs the class needs but it doesn’t have to be specifically the ones I suggested. If that makes sense.

This is the most ridiculous post about “fixing” mesmers I’ve ever seen.

I find it comical that non-mesmers try to fix other classes.

Blinding dissipation, confounding suggestions, mantra background recharge and prismatic understanding.

Saiyan.1704:

Mesmers are fine where they’re at… Just add some form of counterplay against them.

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
  “but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.
• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

• First change would also affect thief and this is an awful change to stealth mechanic. Why go invisible if you cannot do anything?
• Want slower clones? Wait for Chronomancer and the trait that gives superspeed to illusions when shattered. Better start dealing with them.
• Then you have to change how boon removal works, and this won’t happen.

If those are your changes, then you know nothing.

Ansau.7326:

Saiyan.1704:

Mesmers are fine where they’re at… Just add some form of counterplay against them.

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
  “but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.
• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

• First change would also affect thief and this is an awful change to stealth mechanic. Why go invisible if you cannot do anything?
• Want slower clones? Wait for Chronomancer and the trait that gives superspeed to illusions when shattered. Better start dealing with them.
• Then you have to change how boon removal works, and this won’t happen.

If those are your changes, then you know nothing.

Never mentioned a change to “stealth mechanic”… meant this solely just for Mesmers.
Reasoning – Mesmers bursting in stealth – meant to add some form of counterplay.

Superspeed – All the more reason why clone shatter activation speed needs a speed reduction now, rather than later. Time Split Shatter bursts is going to be ridiculous.

No, mesmer stealth is the same as every other classes’, so you’ll have to treat them equally.

Saiyan.1704:

Ansau.7326:

Saiyan.1704:

Mesmers are fine where they’re at… Just add some form of counterplay against them.

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
  “but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.
• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

• First change would also affect thief and this is an awful change to stealth mechanic. Why go invisible if you cannot do anything?
• Want slower clones? Wait for Chronomancer and the trait that gives superspeed to illusions when shattered. Better start dealing with them.
• Then you have to change how boon removal works, and this won’t happen.

If those are your changes, then you know nothing.

Never mentioned a change to “stealth mechanic”… meant this solely just for Mesmers.
Reasoning – Mesmers bursting in stealth – meant to add some form of counterplay.

Superspeed – All the more reason why clone shatter activation speed needs a speed reduction now, rather than later. Time Split Shatter bursts is going to be ridiculous.

Mechanics are not tided to a single profession. If you change a mechanic, that affects the whole game. It applies for stealth and boon ripping.

Actually, mesmer bursts are the most predictable and easy to avoid, unless they do the bursts next to you, where the illusions speed doesn’t matter.
It is clear a l2p issue.

I feel like everytime mesmers were an easy targets. Stealth, stun, 2-3 hit and it’s done. Just when you see mesmer and think “Oh, mesmer, it’ll not be a problem”. I have never feel myself that i can be someone but a little support for others. You can say that i can’t play right but now i can stay alone on the point and save it. Not every times but often that in the past. I think that not to die from anyone and be able to fight like other classes is ok. And i don’t remember many mesmers in the past on PvP. Maybe there were a reasons to make any other class and ppl did it?

-Cut PU effect to 50%
-Nerf burning in general
-Put a 1/4s cast time on phase retreat
-Put a 3s cd on deceptive evasion

Ansau.7326:

Saiyan.1704:

Ansau.7326:

Saiyan.1704:

Mesmers are fine where they’re at… Just add some form of counterplay against them.

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
  “but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.
• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

• First change would also affect thief and this is an awful change to stealth mechanic. Why go invisible if you cannot do anything?
• Want slower clones? Wait for Chronomancer and the trait that gives superspeed to illusions when shattered. Better start dealing with them.
• Then you have to change how boon removal works, and this won’t happen.

If those are your changes, then you know nothing.

Never mentioned a change to “stealth mechanic”… meant this solely just for Mesmers.
Reasoning – Mesmers bursting in stealth – meant to add some form of counterplay.

Superspeed – All the more reason why clone shatter activation speed needs a speed reduction now, rather than later. Time Split Shatter bursts is going to be ridiculous.

Mechanics are not tided to a single profession. If you change a mechanic, that affects the whole game. It applies for stealth and boon ripping.

Actually, mesmer bursts are the most predictable and easy to avoid, unless they do the bursts next to you, where the illusions speed doesn’t matter.
It is clear a l2p issue.

Mesmer’s burst are twice as unpredictable and not as easy to avoid compared to prepatch. I can concur with everything else; I could definitely l2p better and stealth probably should be the same across every class.

xDudisx.5914:

-Put a 1/4s cast time on phase retreat
-Put a 3s cd on deceptive evasion

PU mesmers aren’t even using staff, so i don’t really know where your problem with Phase Retreat is. Just remember that giving it a cast time is going to remove a LOT of it’s utility and might make staff unusable for a lot of build, causing even more PU mesmers to pop up.

DE doesn’t need a cd, it’s gated by endurance, which even took a hit with the Vigor nerf. Double dodging to burst also takes way too much time and can’t even be done from stealth since the illusions are visible.

/edit:
I’m all for nerfing PU, but 50% is tricky, since it comes to half seconds on nearly every stealth skill and you’ll have to decide how to treat those. If you are goind with rounding down, it might be better to change PU back to +1s, increase the base stealth duration on Massinvis by 1-2s and increase the Boon Duration on PU (since Chaos lost its boon duration, those rarely last longer than the stealth itself).

Iavra.8510:

xDudisx.5914:

-Put a 1/4s cast time on phase retreat
-Put a 3s cd on deceptive evasion

PU mesmers aren’t even using staff, so i don’t really know where your problem with Phase Retreat is. Just remember that giving it a cast time is going to remove a LOT of it’s utility and might make staff unusable for a lot of build, causing even more PU mesmers to pop up.

DE doesn’t need a cd, it’s gated by endurance, which even took a hit with the Vigor nerf. Double dodging to burst also takes way too much time and can’t even be done from stealth since the illusions are visible.

Why an internal cd? Because every other on dodge skill has one.

Yes it would nerf the staff, but why does 1 class deserve to have a 10s cd (or less) teleport? That is basically a stun breaker vs melee classes.

Iavra.8510:

xDudisx.5914:

-Put a 1/4s cast time on phase retreat
-Put a 3s cd on deceptive evasion

PU mesmers aren’t even using staff, so i don’t really know where your problem with Phase Retreat is. Just remember that giving it a cast time is going to remove a LOT of it’s utility and might make staff unusable for a lot of build, causing even more PU mesmers to pop up.

DE doesn’t need a cd, it’s gated by endurance, which even took a hit with the Vigor nerf. Double dodging to burst also takes way too much time and can’t even be done from stealth since the illusions are visible.

/edit:
I’m all for nerfing PU, but 50% is tricky, since it comes to half seconds on nearly every stealth skill and you’ll have to decide how to treat those. If you are goind with rounding down, it might be better to change PU back to +1s, increase the base stealth duration on Massinvis by 1-2s and increase the Boon Duration on PU (since Chaos lost its boon duration, those rarely last longer than the stealth itself).

Why not just nerf PU? Why would the mesmer deserve a consolation prize?

Even before patch the only class capable of putting mesmer in real danger was and remains thief, surprisingly anet decreased stealth on thief..and increased in on mesmer, without the PU trait….70% of current mesmers would not even exist, I say nerf that trait down to the original version

Ross Biddle.2367:

So you want to be able to outplay mesmer….. by dumbing the class down for you.

Here’s a novel idea. How about you increase the skill of other classes by increasing their access to skills. In otherwords, giving your favorite class tools with which to add counterplay.

Otherwise just another dumb thread.

Wow. I think this guy actually thinks mesmers are balanced right now.

i dont mind pu being nerfed. i dont use it anyways. plus for me its easy to fight a pu mes as i know how baddies play the mes. so yeah reverting pu to the way it was could remove the stealth burst mesmer meta.
but honestly, u guys will still be crying for more nerfs until mes is nonviable again…. even if its coremechanics that have been in the game since launch. decoy has always been instacast, so has torch 4, distortion has always worked that way and shatter mes has always been high burst,phaseretreat has ALWAYS been that way and people have not cried about it!!!!!!!!!! and mantra of distraction has also been that ways and yes there has always been lockdownmesmers since before glamour builds even. first lockdown was even invented by the leader of avtr guild(before glamour nerf) .
the things that have changed are blind on shatter, ip made baseline (much needed as in other gamemodes shatters without ip are not possible due to aoe destroying clones…u know there are other modes u know apart from 1v1 spvp …. u know like pve and wvw u know like other game modes…) yes and mantras are now even viable, really viable!

so the mesmers u guys cry about are the pu cheesefactory stealth burst shatterers which are very predictable as thats the only thing they can actually do.

they see u, they stealth they burst, rinse and repeat… u take away their stealth and they are done for.( in wvw ill go in stealth,place a stealthtrap and laugh at mesmer noob not knowing what to do.)

selan.8354:

but honestly, u guys will still be crying for more nerfs until mes is nonviable again…

agree 100%.

That’s the real agenda, pre Jun 23rd patch, an average Mesmers tends to be easy targets in PvP. Now it’s different and they all wanted it to go back the way it was. Clearly cele meta was so awesome, high survival, high sustain, high reward. Because that was prefectly balanced, amiright!?

as much as i can’t stand mesmers atm i don’t think those suggestions are good
what needs to happen is:
- shatter blind shouldn’t go through evades/dodge
- confounding suggestions should only stun when you actually interrupt something and should have decent ICD
- possibly move CS to other trait line so it has to compete with other good traits so mesmers can’t have all good things in 1
- mantras shouldn’t recharge in background as fast (arguably)
- passive phantasm 15% buff needs to be a trait again
- PU may need some adjustments in numbers

Cynz.9437:

as much as i can’t stand mesmers atm i don’t think those suggestions are good
what needs to happen is:
- shatter blind shouldn’t go through evades/dodge
- confounding suggestions should only stun when you actually interrupt something and should have decent ICD
- possibly move CS to other trait line so it has to compete with other good traits so mesmers can’t have all good things in 1
- mantras shouldn’t recharge in background as fast (arguably)
- passive phantasm 15% buff needs to be a trait again
- PU may need some adjustments in numbers

This guy gets it. And tone down shatter damage a bit.

Obviously the best way to nerf mesmer is to make the mantra of distraction stun yourself as well as your enemy on use.

There, now it’s balanced.

/jokingbutstill

I have played condi/pu mesmer for a long time. Whoever thought that giving zerkers/shatterers an option to take PU is not a clever man. You should never mixed pu and shatter builds together. A simple trait adjustment can solve this problem maybe.

Dont let zerker mesmer traits mix with pu
dont let pu condi mesmer traits mix with shatter

These two will solve the problem. Condi pu is not as strong as other condition professions.
Also if you are going to make these changes, tone down guardian and engi burn builds too. I played burn engi. And it was… well on fire.

Lettuce.2945:

Cynz.9437:

as much as i can’t stand mesmers atm i don’t think those suggestions are good
what needs to happen is:
- shatter blind shouldn’t go through evades/dodge
- confounding suggestions should only stun when you actually interrupt something and should have decent ICD
- possibly move CS to other trait line so it has to compete with other good traits so mesmers can’t have all good things in 1
- mantras shouldn’t recharge in background as fast (arguably)
- passive phantasm 15% buff needs to be a trait again
- PU may need some adjustments in numbers

This guy gets it. And tone down shatter damage a bit.

+1, although if you made CS an “on-interrupt” trait then you could keep it where it is in all other respects (no need to increase ICD or move it around).

Increasing mantra CD isn’t a bad idea either, now that mantras recharge in the background (which imo was a good change, intended or not).

Mesmer burst was always nasty, the big change was that the guaranteed instant-cast stun from CS+MOD now makes the burst very difficult to avoid.

I’m of two minds on PU. As much as I hate the trait, mesmers who go Dom/Duel/Chaos end up with 0 condi removal, which is a pretty glaring weakness. A burnguard should have no trouble vs Dom/Duel/Chaos, since one JI + PF is enough to kill. And weakness pretty much shuts down their burst.

The Inspiration mantra mesmer is a lot more resilient, but is also a lot easier to focus down due to lack of stealth and reliance on charging mantras. Also, if you increase the CD on mantra recharge, that’d shave this build down too.

This thread is amusing. And far from providing sensible suggestions.

Saiyan.1704:

Ansau.7326:

• First change would also affect thief and this is an awful change to stealth mechanic. Why go invisible if you cannot do anything?
• Want slower clones? Wait for Chronomancer and the trait that gives superspeed to illusions when shattered. Better start dealing with them.
• Then you have to change how boon removal works, and this won’t happen.

If those are your changes, then you know nothing.

Never mentioned a change to “stealth mechanic”… meant this solely just for Mesmers.
Reasoning – Mesmers bursting in stealth – meant to add some form of counterplay.

Superspeed – All the more reason why clone shatter activation speed needs a speed reduction now, rather than later. Time Split Shatter bursts is going to be ridiculous.

I got to agree with Ansau.

• If you change stealth, change it for everyone.
• F3 doesn’t automatically remove 4 – or even 5 stacks of Stability. You have to sacrifice 3 Clones for it to happen. And you have to land all hits. That’s a significant investment and most certainly not an I-win-button.
• Chronomancy adds a way to actually speed up shattered illusions. Because successfully landing a full shatter is actually quite hard in most scenarios. Saying that Chronomancy would therefore require a nerf even more is a quite screwed up assessment of a causal relationship.

Other suggestions like nerfing Phase Retreat or DE are so misleaded I don’t even want to talk about it. Cynz is on the right route for suggestions (although I disagree on his solution for CS – making it work on interrupt only will make it redundant).

“Realistic way to nerf mesmers” – this is a troll right? The suggestions made on this other post are approximately 9001x more realistic than the ones you suggested in your post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Suggested-mesmer-changes/first#post5319811

Saiyan.1704:

sephiroth.4217:

You have condi guard build in your signature, how are mesmers are problem for you?

-Lack of sustains
-Our bursts comes from the high cd JI/PF/ZF and is negated by a single shatter cleanse.
-Higher risks in general

There’s a reason why Burn Guards arnt a thing in tournament play but Berserker Mesmers are. In short, I get easily outplayed but they don’t. If you have more inquiries I recommend visiting the Guard forums.

Nah no questions, I have 4 guards and 3 mesmers and when I troll burn guard I don’t have an issue killing mesmers, they are actually the first I look for in a fight while necro being the avoidance due to transitioning the burn back to me…

I can’t speak for tourney play, after 3 years of the game doing nothing other than WvW and PvP I’m still yet to see what seperates “Pro teams” from scrubs like myself who only play for enjoyment or when the missus is angry at me and I need to enforce legalized murder onto my fellow players.

Saiyan.1704:

Because that Ele thread was surprisingly enlightening, disregarding the OP of the thread and listening to the more realistic inputs of others.

Mesmers are fine where they’re at… Just add some form of counterplay against them.

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
  “but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.
• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

Otherwise, keep your 7k burst dmgs in Stealth, keep your stunlocks, keep your stealthy durations. I just want to be able to outplay you… let there be more skill involved for Mesmers please.

#FlameShieldEngaged

Ahhmm for the Stab Issue, any shatter will do this if he hkittentered Concentration Traited.

So many mesmer bandwagoners. GG fire aura suck too bad.

One thing that I am surprised hasn’t been brought up but is an obvious change would be greatsword auto attack cancel casting. Give it the same treatment as lightning whip and necro axe for consistency reasons. I would assume the reason this wasn’t fixed with lightning whip was that mesmers were struggling a bit in that meta but now that they are ludicrously strong, this is simply a small and obvious fix to make now.

xDudisx.5914:

Iavra.8510:

xDudisx.5914:

-Put a 1/4s cast time on phase retreat
-Put a 3s cd on deceptive evasion

PU mesmers aren’t even using staff, so i don’t really know where your problem with Phase Retreat is. Just remember that giving it a cast time is going to remove a LOT of it’s utility and might make staff unusable for a lot of build, causing even more PU mesmers to pop up.

DE doesn’t need a cd, it’s gated by endurance, which even took a hit with the Vigor nerf. Double dodging to burst also takes way too much time and can’t even be done from stealth since the illusions are visible.

Why an internal cd? Because every other on dodge skill has one.

Yes it would nerf the staff, but why does 1 class deserve to have a 10s cd (or less) teleport? That is basically a stun breaker vs melee classes.

No teleport in this game has a cast time and also Phase Retreat is not a stun breaker.

There’re a lot of dodge traits that don’t have internal CD. In fact, dodge traits with internal CD are the minority, 4 out of 11 have it.

If by nerf, the OP means remove from competitive and PvE play completely, then yes, this is a realistic way to nerf mesmers.

DaShi.1368:

If by nerf, the OP means remove from competitive and PvE play completely, then yes, this is a realistic way to nerf mesmers.

As long as mesmer has it’s incredible utility, it will always have at least a small place in the pve meta regardless of how bad its damage is.

For reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsm2DKThi5M&feature=youtu.be

This is the world record run for a dungeon path, the mesmer did almost no damage personally, just summoned 2 phantasms at the start, however still managed to be the most important member of the group.

Regardless this is the pvp forum, so don’t know why I am responding to this.

If you want to be able to outplay a mesmer then you need to play one and learn how to survive as a mesmer in order to learn how to outplay them- then you can see the attacks and rotations coming your surivival will go up higher than you think
Dumbing a class down just so YOU can feel validated is really stupid. L2P.
Here are some pointers from a Champion Illusionist.
-AoE, CC, and condition heavy builds will take down a mesmer. Trust me.
-When a mesmer stealths she will normally hit you with her hardest bursts so be prepared.
-Play a mesmer and learn their weaknesses and strengths.
-There is no shame in avoiding a mesmer fight even though every single mesmer with the new patch is a shatter and VERY predictable.

Saiyan.1704:

Because that Ele thread was surprisingly enlightening, disregarding the OP of the thread and listening to the more realistic inputs of others.

Mesmers are fine where they’re at… Just add some form of counterplay against them.

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
  “but mantras would be useless -snip-” no, it would be fair.
• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.

Otherwise, keep your 7k burst dmgs in Stealth, keep your stunlocks, keep your stealthy durations. I just want to be able to outplay you… let there be more skill involved for Mesmers please.

#FlameShieldEngaged

“Realistic”
That’s why I don’t make suggestion for a class I don’t play, because I don’t know the kitten I’m talking aboutl.
If you want mesmer to be rewarded on his skill:
- Make CS works on interrupt
- Make so that the mantra start recharging after the first use of a charge (or lower the CD altogether, I don’t know, but APPARENTLY it’s OP… not that it can be interrupted so easily with the most obvious animation ever, but I do understand that the healing mantra IS too strong and needs shaving.
- Make so that BD is avoidable (wouldn’t change anything, but then no one would be able to QQ about it anymore)
- Shave that PU, it’s annoying as hell
- Fix Mender’s purity that doesn’t work on third stack of mantra heal
- Change Stealth mechanic altogether IMO
Because what YOU are asking are nerfs because YOU can’t wrap your head around the class

• Have them unstealth immediately when they use any skills or abilities
  And I saw your answer that it should only affect mesmer… That’s rubbish… Hell the QQ about Blurred Frenzy being OP makes more sense than this

• When they Shatter, make clones walk 15% slower.
  Again, why? They rush at you, dodge through them. The telegraphed animation couldn’t scream DODGE more than that… and if you can’t see them it’s because the three clone + mesmer was already on your face, which is usually how I manage my shatters anyways. I feel it’s a L2P issue there. I’d understand if a shatter would instantly make all the clones use Blink on yourself and use unavoidable damage…
  but… please… that mechanic hasn’t changed over 3 years, that’s not the problem

• Their F3 shouldn’t instantly remove Stability on targets. 4 shatter Daze hits should count as 1 stability stack removal.
  Any stun/daze remove stability instantly… fact is, each clones count as a daze, thus (with self) 4 daze. Logically, four stab should be removed.

issues and why they’re issues:

• confounding suggestions

turns Mantra of Distraction into a ranged, combo-able (you’re able to cast while using other skills), stun that completely prevents any reasonable reactionary play to mesmer burst, which is the key element balancing mesmer’s burst considering they have minimal positional requirement like thief with backstab. it’s pretty much a superior form of a basilisk venom without being an elite and on a shorter cooldown, not to mention there is zero broadcast and reliable way to counterplay it due to range capability which is a huge balance problem for a stun with this kind of duration.

• prismatic understanding

ridiculously long stealth uptime that actually allows mesmer to out stealth a profession that is designed to be the main stealth user in the game. combined with the tankiness this allows mesmer through boons and the somewhat defensive nature of stealth it offers them an absurd amount of survivability. this is mainly problematic with condition oriented specs.

• blinding dissipation

while the bug allowing it to ignore evades, blocks, and invulns artificially makes this ridiculously strong, the fact that it does not have an ICD is nonetheless a problem. considering it has the same functionality as traits such as blinding ashes and cloaked and shadows, there is no reason why it should only be a Master trait with NO ICD.

• greatsword autoattack

the main issue this is broken is because of the absurd synergy it offers with Air/Fire runes, which are not overpowered on their own. this issue stems from the fact that it’s a ranged channeled skill that hits 3 times in one cast, offering for a much easier and stupidly efficient way to proc both air and fire sigils. the fact that this can also be stow glitched to achieve a higher dps is also an exploit that should not be left untouched.

the solution to most of these is pretty simple:

• nerf Prismatic Understanding by a steep percentage around the 50% area.
• fix the Blinding Dissipation bug, give it a decent ICD to prevent spamability or move it to grandmaster and allow it to still go through blocks, with no ICD (this should make it strong enough to consider taking it over Deceptive Evasion).
• make the greatsword auto attack one hit with a drastically shorter cast time that only deals damage at the end of the cast, effectively making it act like a projectile based attack similar to ranger’s longbow auto; this kills two birds with one stone by balancing it’s effectiveness with Air/Fire while also completely eliminating any reason to stow glitch.

the one, more complicated, rebalance is what to do with Confounding Suggestions imo. as it stands now it unavoidably does indeed need to be nerfed a good bit, that much is clear; however, seeing how much power mesmers have benefited from such a mechanic we have to be careful not to have it be nerfed into uselessness. so, for that reason, i’m gonna refrain from making any suggestions as i genuinely have no idea what should be done with it (mesmer input would be very appreciated).

I disagree with giving Mesmer stealth an exception. This would hurt mesmer+thief gameplay. Also, the problem isn’t the Mesmer’s various abilities to act in stealth, but the duration of stealth itself. PU shouldn’t be anywhere near +100% stealth duration. A static amount across all stealth skills would suffice, not a percentage increase. What if thief got a +50-100% stealth duration instead of the current +1s stealth?

Illusion walking speed isn’t a problem. Players should be rewarded with spacing out (or positioning in general) their illusions for optimal F3 dazing.

I don’t think F3 dazing should reduce a less amount of stability stacks. Illusion output needs to be lessened slightly and a very critical change could include putting an ICD on Deceptive Evasion. A very short ICD on DE would probably be enough of a nerf.
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Changes I think would be fit, in addition to the previously made comments:

1. Phase Retreat can not be cast while under the effects of cc, while dodging, or while performing an action. Like The Prestige, it has no cast time, but you can’t cast The Prestige while cc’d, dodging, or using Blurred Frenzy and I think the change would be appropriate to the 10s recharge blink.
2. Power Lock can’t be cast while under the effects of cc. It would retain the instant cast time like all mantras, but can’t be used while cc’d. It seems a little stupid to be able to daze (or even stun when traited with Confounding Suggestions) somebody while cc’d. Can be used while dodging and while performing an action, however. All other mantras would remain untouched.
3. Mirror Blade can be blocked. I have zero clue why there’s a Unblockable slapped onto this trait. Yields too much damage at too high of a range. If it can be blocked, it’s fine.
4. Mind Stab. Cut the damage and scaling by 33-50%. Add a new function: If you remove a boon, deal 50-100% more damage, respectively. So right now it does 314(0.850), after the change; of, let’s say, 50% cut and 100% more damage on boon reap; it’ll do 157(0.425) without the boon reap, and 2*(157(0.425)). The before and after results don’t change the overall damage if a boon is removed, but do provide a small barrier to bursting someone with this skill.
5. Remove blind and aegis from chaos armor and Chaos Storm. RNG shouldn’t reward one with such powerful de/buffs. Replace with 3 stacks vulnerability/weakness and might, respectively.
6. ICD on Blinding Dissipation. Make a significantly large ICD if implementing this effect: Blind your illusions’ targets and foes around you when you use a shatter skill. (Would reward positioning illusions, may also need to reduce the blind duration by 1 or 2s). Consider eliminating this trait. It’s too good of a seemingly free handout when shattering without the intention of blinding foes.
7. Revert Illusionary Persona baseline. I feel like this nerf would be too much, but it needs to be accessible. Right now, Chaos and Inspiration seem to be the dominating trait lines alongside Dueling/Domination. Placing IP in the Grandmaster slot of Illusions, and sending Malicious Sorcery somewhere else seems fair.

Quantitatively, these changes seem like a lot, but implementing these changes would put Mesmers closer with the rest of the classes. They have too much going for them right now and that’s because of their design and freebies.