Reasonable changes to downed-state

Reasonable changes to downed-state

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

Let me preface this by saying that in my personal opinion the downed-state mechanic is the single most detrimental feature to PvP in any MMO I have seen to date. It has a snowballing effect, isn’t remotely balanced and most importantly isn’t fun. I my book it always was and still is a mechanic designed and balanced entirely around PvE, where to be fair, it’s perfectly fine.

That said I acknowledge that ANet is never going to fundamentally change this mechanic no matter how much I or anyone else complains about it. But maybe there are a few reasonable changes we can all agree on.

1. 1 Rally for 1 kill – This is pretty self-explanatory. I’m ok with the Rallying mechanic and understand arguments about it shifting the momentum of battle and keeping things interesting. And in 90% if situations that’s fine. But having multiple people, sometimes up to 5 or more people rally off a single person they tagged half a minute prior is just not cool and very frustrating and random when it occurs. And this happens quite a bit in WvW.

To use an example, when you catch a ball in Dodgeball you get one team-member to rejoin the game. Having your entire team rejoin because of a single catch would just be kittened and have a massive unpredictable jojo-effect on the outcome of matches.

2. Every finisher-interrupt should have a counter.

Many classes in GW2 can be reliably stomped given the right abilities.

Warrior interrupt can be countered by Stability, Stealth and Blind.
Guardian interrupt can be countered by Stability and Blind.
Ranger interrupt can be countered by Stability and Blind
Thief teleport can be countered by Shadowsteps/Blinks. His second interrupt can not be countered.
Engineer interrupt can be countered by Stability, Stealth and Blind
Necromancer interrupt can be countered by Stealth.
Mesmer interrupt can not be countered.
Elementalist can not be countered. Also being near a portal makes them virtually unkillable.

So the two big outliners here are Mesmers and Elementalists. The Thief downed stealth is also problematic but at least it has a lengthy cooldown and so isn’t available right away.

My goal here is to allow every “stomp denier” to be countered by some sort of ability. This ability doesn’t have to be available to all classes but there should always be ways to reliably stomp with the right class and cooldowns.

In the case of Mesmers, the easiest way to address this would be by simply having the Mesmer reappear instantly after using Deception. This would make it possible to stomp using shadowsteps or other instant teleports, assuming the stomper picks the right target.

For Elementalists things are a little tricker, especially considering their immortality near keeps. You’d need to find a more creative solution for this case.

3. Rezz time vs. finisher time

It seems like that in some scenarios a single player can actually revive faster than your standard finisher goes, making successful 2v1s almost impossible. Why must revives be so incredibly fast? How is this fun and fair towards the already outmanned player?

I also don’t understand why the tools needed to stop such a revive are few and far between for some classes. Some builds simply don’t have any way to stop a revive and given the previous circumstance if revives being faster than stomps, can end up in fights they simply can’t win.

4. Power rezzing by multiple players. It’s stunning to see in WvW just how quickly a group of 5 players can resurrect a previously dead player. It’s a matter of seconds and way too effective considering a dead player should be considered “out” of any PvP battle. This is especially frustrating in WvW when you have a huge zerg knocking at your door and despite your solid defenses the enemies can just continue ressurrecting their dead ad infinitum.

Would it be possible that while in combat a second resurrecter would only add 50% rezz-speed, a third 25% etc? Seems reasonable to me.

Reasonable changes to downed-state

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Posted by: evilapprentice.6379

evilapprentice.6379

Concerning point 2 –
People always seem to forget things when it comes to down state.

Thief, Mesmer and Elementalist downed avoidance mechanics are entirely personal – they’re guaranteed (or nigh guaranteed in the case of thief 2), but they cannot, in any way, help a downed teammate avoid a stomp or interrupt a res (besides for DPSing a resser, which any class can do and isn’t anything special to these classes).

Warrior, engineer and Necromancer skills can interrupt a stomp on themselves, a stomp on a teammate, or a res on an enemy at range. These are tactically valuable options when working with a coordinated team, which is how GW2 was designed.

Ranger and Guardian skills can potentially perform the same as the above class of interrupts, but guardians interrupt is PBAOE, and I’m honestly not aware of the range on Rangers #2 downed skill (it might be just as useful as War/Necro/Engi, and AoE to boot)

If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.

(edited by evilapprentice.6379)

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Posted by: Psych.6527

Psych.6527

Concerning point 2:
There are more classes able of being able to teleport stomp a thief, another example is the ele.

Mesmer stomping is by mastering how to get you to control the battle and not a mesmer, Bait him/her out, just before the mesmer uses the downed 2 skill cancel and restart the stomp, in most cases he/she will appear from stealth before you finish your stomp and in range, also requires a target to cast so stealth also affects this skill.

The only one truly unstompable(probably not a real word :P ) is the ele i am sure using a similar tactic to the mesmer is possible granted the ele stays in range, but have not gotten good tests on this yet..

As well as evilapprentice making valid points..its all in all i think the stomping is rather balanced.

Somewhat agreed with point 1 to an extent.. The team should be rewarded for team play if they are all down and focus on the one downed target to kill him.. as would be the case if the other team had actually decided to res their downed hence none of the other team would have rallied.. Team play is what should be rewarding.

Fully agreed with point 3, and do not disagree or agree with point 4

Finch Psydstep|Phantasmal Mesmer and Council Leader of
Gamers Republic of South Africa[RSA]|Aurora Glade.
“If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven. Such is the rule, of honor!”

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Posted by: Reevz.2617

Reevz.2617

mesmer and ele downed state can be countered with teleports and good timing, mesmer can also be countered by blowouts

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Posted by: Blacktorn.3197

Blacktorn.3197

Ele can be countered by 3+ second immobilize if you are lucky with timing.

Reasonable changes to downed-state

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Posted by: CntrlAltDefeat.1465

CntrlAltDefeat.1465

I am just super tired of thief black powder and/or stealth on finish. It gives you no chance to even use down state.

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Posted by: Dagins.5163

Dagins.5163

Downed state is fine, but if you totally ignore it in your build, you will find it annoying.
With my build, I can:
- self revive,
- gain shallow access to stability to stomp/revive,
- quickly revive multiple teammates in stealth,
- stomp in stealth (even camp for people who drop),
- secure stomp with black powder’s blind (both for myself and teammates around),
- stomp with shadowstep, or use shadowstep to quickly aid downed ally,
- interrupt enemy’s stomp in 7 different ways of CC,
- interrupt enemy’s revive in 6 different ways of CC.

If you had at least quarter of these tools, you would find it actually fun mechanic. All classes can improve their stomping/reviving.
I just agree, that rally on kill should be removed, because it feels so cheap for both sides.

Signed, level 1 alt

(edited by Dagins.5163)

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Posted by: KrisHQ.4719

KrisHQ.4719

I think you’ve brought up some pretty nice suggestions, and I think some of them would really improve the gameplay.
I still think that only giving people one rally per defeat / combat-phase would drastically improve 1v2’s and make teamfights less confusing.
I’ve lost 1v2’s where I’ve had one person downed 3 times, just to keep getting revived over and over, and that is simply just bad design.

Lysis Kawahara – D/D Elementalist
Zaphiel Faires – DPS Guardian

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Posted by: Rieselle.5079

Rieselle.5079

I think downed is fine, but rally definitely needs to be made more consistent and controlled.
1 kill = 1 rally. The nearest downed player is rallied.

I don’t think rally needs to be removed, if this limit was in place. Down penalty will take care of the rest.

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

I was just watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDKE_cIvOMs

this really good match-up between the two competitive teams and here too the outcome was decided by rezzing.

For me this clip highlights that, compared to stomping, rezzing is just far too easy. In most cases it’s faster than your average stomp while also being much less susceptible to interrupts and stealth.

Finishing vs. rezzing is out of balance in favor of rezzing and this should really be fixed.

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Posted by: EverythingEnds.4261

EverythingEnds.4261

Jep, IMO it is to easy to rezz downed players.

And talking about downed state. I always like to mention Ranger #3 in downedstat.
Yes, it is possible to stomp him before he gets so far, however this doesnt change the fact that this skill is OP. Especially the Underwater-One.

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Posted by: Master of Timespace.2548

Master of Timespace.2548

Mesmer interrupt can be countered. If you cancel cast your stomp and start it again just when the mesmer uses the skill #2 (there is animation and cast time), then the mesmer appears out of stealth before your stealth finishes. Sometimes you still need to use a teleport skill to reach the mesmers new location though. Tricky, but it’s possible.
The same trick does work on elementalists but it needs a lot better timing. I’ve only managed to pull it off once or twice.

? <(^-^><)>^-^)> <(^-^)> ?

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Posted by: runeblade.7514

runeblade.7514

I was just watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDKE_cIvOMs

this really good match-up between the two competitive teams and here too the outcome was decided by rezzing.

For me this clip highlights that, compared to stomping, rezzing is just far too easy. In most cases it’s faster than your average stomp while also being much less susceptible to interrupts and stealth.

Finishing vs. rezzing is out of balance in favor of rezzing and this should really be fixed.

However, when you have too many resser, you risk wiping and you become free damage.

There are many instances when I destroyed 3 people at one go because they were trying to res people up.

5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant