Guild Wars 2

i think this is a very reasonable number. this modest nerf would solve a lot of problems in WvW and tpvp.

currently, thieves pulling off 16k reliable burst on a high toughness target is acting as a direct counter to many interesting, albeit squishier builds. this kind of burst is something that can be landed very reliably, especially due to culling, at little to no risk to the thief. it’s atrocious.

a modest nerf to mug or the entire combo (i dont care) would literally open up the field to many other builds. a repeatable combo dealing 10-12k-ish damage would still keep the thief as the most reliable burst in the game. with aoe nerfs hitting d/d eles and mesmers, in addition to more bunker nerfs (hopefully), we might be in a decent shape.

regardless of how you can counter this (bunkering and spamming aoe being the only true methods), BS thieves are no fun to play against. please eliminate cheese builds from the game. aoe nerfs to d/d eles and shatter mesmers is an excellent first step.

You have no idea what your talkng about. if you think bs/crit thiefs are OP in sPvP.

Thiefs are extremely underwhelming in Spvp. We do it cuase we love thiefs., Almost any other class is better then a thief in high level spvp.

Pls……

Damage is not the problem with heartseeker, imo. It’s the auto-steering. Make it a skill shot like burning speed.

^ I hope you guys aren’t serious. New signature btw, priceless replies here…

Miku Lawrence.6329:

^ I hope you guys aren’t serious. New signature btw, priceless replies here…

People who do not play sPvP should not be able to post here. Im jelous at your sig but…

Too much nonsense on the forum just because anyone can post….

So now… Nerf thieves AND Ele’s cuz I am sick of mesmers getting nerfed while all these classes get buffed and they clearly dont need it lol. Seriously though. Mesmers can’t hope to have near that much burst damage that often…

Evilek.5690:

PowerBottom.5796:

IComeInPeace.1768:

You have no idea what your talkng about. if you think bs/crit thiefs are OP in sPvP.

Thiefs are extremely underwhelming in Spvp. We do it cuase we love thiefs., Almost any other class is better then a thief in high level spvp.

Pls……

How can you even write this without getting a brain-aneurysm?

- No class has better burst.
- Almost no class has better Mobility.
- No other class can run such a glassy equip and still be as hard to kill.
- Few classes have as good Teamfight-Skills like Shadow Refuge, Cluster Bomb, Cantrips, Trickshot etc.
- No Class has a downed-mode where you can escape Stomps twice and no class deals more DPS while being downed.

The only reason why I wouldn’t nerf the Thiefs Burst in the current Meta is because most Teams are running 2 very tanky Chars (most of the time Guard and a Tank-Ele), that it can be very frustrating to deal with, if you don’t have the burst of the Thief.

Really ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyahdHO0WHk
Your post is pure fail

Really

This is sPvP forum please learn to read and to play this game. We discuss sPvP here. You have forum for WvW and other things….

p.s. i guess your post is a pure fail (since you missed entire forum)

@Evilek: Becaue every ele ruins with no points in both arcane and water?
PowerBottom is right … check vids of the best teams and listen to what they say, when they get gibbed from 50 to 0 in a split-second by Jumper/Lowell. We have all accepted, that that is just how it is … but is it enjoyable if you are not the thief doing it? Is it intelligent/enjoyable design to not be able to avoid it? Not in my book.
Whoever said anything about stunbreakers haven’t understood one bit of the issue.

Reasonable, since aoe damage is getting nerf then there is no point for thief still holding the highest burst damage in game.
Unless A Net is going to make this game Name ThiefWar2(?)

The problem with CnMugD -> Backstab:

The combo with quickness takes ~250-300ms (milliseconds) and deals 24k+ damage to anyone who isn’t a full bunker with protection up.

Most people are playing GW2 with a ping in the 150-300ms range (even if their latency is lower in other games), and the average human reaction time (for something they’re fully expecting) is 200-225ms.

Add that together and your best case scenario for reacting to CnMugD -> backstab is 350ms. That is longer than the combo takes to pull off, so it is literally impossible to avoid. Add the ability to initiate the combo from stealth (timed to go off just as stealth expires) and you can’t even avoid it with anticipation.

That’s why CnMugD -> backstab is imbalanced.

Even a damage nerf isn’t enough to fix what’s wrong with it. The way that the skills interact is fundamentally broken. The devs knew what had to be done to fix this as far back as October and they’ve simply decided not to.

Backstab thieves themselves are fine overall. They are one of the better classes, but not by much . The problem is the kitten quickness buff! If a thief pops quickness and goes on you there are pretty much 2 scenarios :
1. If you have an immunity skill you will use it, stay alive and hope the damage he inflicted left you with enough HP to recuperate and retaliate
2. You die.

Any counter arguments like you should have dodged or whatever stupid defensive reasons you might come up for haste backstab/heartseeker thieves – please save them for your kid’s bedtime story.

Caffynated.5713:

The problem with CnMugD -> Backstab:

The combo with quickness takes ~250-300ms (milliseconds) and deals 24k+ damage to anyone who isn’t a full bunker with protection up.

Not that I disagree with burst being too high for this combo and some others out there, but it doesn’t help your argument when you exaggerate so dramatically. 24k+ damage to “anyone who isn’t full bunker with protection up” is such a folly. 24k would only be possible to people who run full glass cannon and lucky crits on both steal and C&D and you’d actually have to proc lightning strike in order to get them below 50% for the following backstab (which would obviously have to crit as well).

This, by itself, means that you are hitting somebody with way less than 18k HPs, let alone 24k.

You are not going to instantly kill anybody with protection up, even if they run full glass cannon ever on the other hand, as you will never get them down to “Executioner” range for the backstab with Steal and C&D.

uwo.8197:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

uwo.8197:

Damage is not the problem with heartseeker, imo. It’s the auto-steering. Make it a skill shot like burning speed.

If you do that, I can’t spam 2 with my eyes closed anymore

Eye’s closed? I pin my keyboard to the wall and throw darts at the 2 key.

Or make Burning Speed like Heartseeker, a seeking skill that would be awesome, NOT

Mug could have its damage reduced, agreed.

But leave Backstab alone.

Heartseeker needs to be more expensive and less efficient. Leap finisher, auto-targeting, 450 range and lots of damage for 3 Initiative is just too good.

people saying l2p need to stfu. here is what Lowell (top player) said when asked if one shotting should be possible and requires skill to pull off in paid tournaments vs other top players:

" I don’t think it should be possible, there is no skill in punching my numpad."

so please stop with the whole its so easy to avoid nonsense

there is no skill either in 100b combo honestly. or Xcondi stack in necro, or “op dps” on ranger shortbow.
if you ask me “do you want thief to be nerfed?” i answer “ofc yes, but make it playable and competitive”.
there is a difference between my statement and yours.
and lowell’s personal opinion is only an opinion. anet should change it. we should only ADAPT to what anet wants for his game.
so l2adapt

edit: it is what i mean:

Philosophy inside weapons and class balance
We want every single class to feel like they have multiple options to deal with every situations, this doesn’t mean every class will have the exact same options.
We want every single class to deal situations in an unique manner – we keep “purity” in certain skills/traits i.e. only mesmers and thieves have stealth to deal with some situations. Not everyone have stealth but every class have a defensive mechanism they can use if they don’t stealth.
We want to bring up all the weak weapons/traits on par with strong weapons/builds/traits in addition to reduce AoE effectiveness.
A lot of classes have 1-2 good builds while some have 5-6 builds , we want to bring up all the classes to 5-6 good and viable builds.

Shukran.4851:

there is no skill either in 100b combo honestly. or Xcondi stack in necro, or “op dps” on ranger shortbow.
if you ask me “do you want thief to be nerfed?” i answer “ofc yes, but make it playable and competitive”.
there is a difference between my statement and yours.
and lowell’s personal opinion is only an opinion. anet should change it. we should only ADAPT to what anet wants for his game.
so l2adapt

edit: it is what i mean:

Philosophy inside weapons and class balance
We want every single class to feel like they have multiple options to deal with every situations, this doesn’t mean every class will have the exact same options.
We want every single class to deal situations in an unique manner – we keep “purity” in certain skills/traits i.e. only mesmers and thieves have stealth to deal with some situations. Not everyone have stealth but every class have a defensive mechanism they can use if they don’t stealth.
We want to bring up all the weak weapons/traits on par with strong weapons/builds/traits in addition to reduce AoE effectiveness.
A lot of classes have 1-2 good builds while some have 5-6 builds , we want to bring up all the classes to 5-6 good and viable builds.

you can see hb combo and see condi stacking. lowell kills people literally before visible and before reaction os possible

Lol none of you have played the thief I have an elementalist and instead of crying about how they bursted me down I made a thief just use Ccs and they are dead put preassure on them go do that but stop making threads that could affect others, thanks.

Sprawl.3891:

you can see hb combo and see condi stacking. lowell kills people literally before visible and before reaction os possible

so it is a rendering/programming issue, not a class issue. nerfing thief won’t change that problem.
but as above im ok with nerfing. just to avoid “thief defending his class”. because you know, as thief, i fight against other thieves too. but rarely i whine, because sometimes i am better, sometimes they outplayed me. from what i read in forums, thief are all bad and everyone else is too pro to be beated by them, so it is obviously an “op class rol face on keyboard to kill” issue.

and to use the bs combo, u must be visible, because if u start cnd+steal in stealth, u will get reveal debuff. so what about nerf shadow refuge?

Med.6150:

Not that I disagree with burst being too high for this combo and some others out there, but it doesn’t help your argument when you exaggerate so dramatically. 24k+ damage to “anyone who isn’t full bunker with protection up” is such a folly. 24k would only be possible to people who run full glass cannon and lucky crits on both steal and C&D and you’d actually have to proc lightning strike in order to get them below 50% for the following backstab (which would obviously have to crit as well).

This, by itself, means that you are hitting somebody with way less than 18k HPs, let alone 24k.

You are not going to instantly kill anybody with protection up, even if they run full glass cannon ever on the other hand, as you will never get them down to “Executioner” range for the backstab with Steal and C&D.

My tests were against an elementalist roamer with just under 18k health and 2200 armor in sPvP. It did not include a damage sigil proc. 24k damage is definitely a realistically attainable number.

Like I said though, it’s pointless to argue about it at this point. The devs understood exactly what the build/combo was capable of as far back as October and have decided that they’re not going to change it. They were asked point blank yesterday if the one shot thief build was overpowered and they said bunker eles were OP. It’s here to stay until Sharp loses his job or the lights go out at ANet.

Makes me laugh that everyone who says thief hits xx always follows it with armour and healthpool they never say, he is running with 900 toughness.

Before I say anything I would just like to say that I have played thief and I understand what the class is capable of doing.

A lot of people in this post don’t seem to realise that the issue isn’t only the damage, but the fact that thieves can come in at any point in the fight and insta gib / stomp someone before the rest of the team can react and that is really bad game design and not really enjoyable for players on the receiving end.
There is little you can do to stop a thief from one shoting a player who is already engaged in combat with another player and than getting insta stomped by quickness.

What people fail to understand is it makes little to no difference how much toughness the thief has, if you can’t hit him in the first place or the fact that he can disengage most fights at will.
If you wish to compare thief to other glass canons your going to find that they are far more effective, because they are harder to kill, harder to stomp, harder to keep track of and they deal a lot more damage than other glass canons; so overall they are more effective than any other glass canon build in every single way.

I do agree that thief burst needs to be toned down, or made in a way that it is possible to react to, because atm this game is a lot less fun not only for the hardcore players but also the casual who wants to log on for a few hours and have fun with game, instead of getting insta killed over and over.
Simply said, it makes me laugh that people try and argue the fact thats its okay to have an “Insta kill” ability because you have a window of 0.3 seconds to react to it.
Insta kill should not exist in any video game and detracts from the fun of the game, hopefully Arena net address this issue at the nearest time frame possible.

Exactly right, having no time to react to this combo is kitten and i often eat 1 more attack before my mist form goes off because of latency and the fact the thief has quickness on.

easy fix with 0 dmg nerf not a direct one anyway
c&d cannot be precast from steal
and /or
c&d cannot be cast on the move
also
hs cost 5/6 initiative to avoid the dumb skiless spam

keeps the high dmg lose the unskilled gameplay.

i don’t mind getting hit for a f load if i get outplayed
but unavoidable dmg is not fun for anyone
just like 100b was op at start ppl l2p now if a warrior gets you with it its a clear l2p from your side.

if a thief wants to open the combo from stealth its fine as lond as he pops a cd for it
and its also takes some skill to pull off right(time the stealth to drop as you steal)
the burst is ok as long as you can do something to stop it if not all of it then 20/50% of it by outplaying ppl.
i outplay so many thieves in 5v5 and 8v8 and still get down from dumb things like haste/hs spam after i avoid a fail steal-c&d-bs by a unskilled player (bad players make it so easy to spot and pre use def cd).
also the full on glass cannons just smack you down in like 2s nothing you can do if your not a bunker build and still they can get away if they fail it.

add to this a stealth finish when your down and the all profession gets out of hand.

this need to cahnge.!

ps:
played a thief from the start to rank 20 i did like 200 8v8 and 300 5v5 with him and stoped playing coz it gets old fast to do the same combo over and over and over again and win with 0 skill.
thief is my most played charcter.

Xeph.4513:

Before I say anything I would just like to say that I have played thief and I understand what the class is capable of doing.

A lot of people in this post don’t seem to realise that the issue isn’t only the damage, but the fact that thieves can come in at any point in the fight and insta gib / stomp someone before the rest of the team can react and that is really bad game design and not really enjoyable for players on the receiving end.
There is little you can do to stop a thief from one shoting a player who is already engaged in combat with another player and than getting insta stomped by quickness.

What people fail to understand is it makes little to no difference how much toughness the thief has, if you can’t hit him in the first place or the fact that he can disengage most fights at will.
If you wish to compare thief to other glass canons your going to find that they are far more effective, because they are harder to kill, harder to stomp, harder to keep track of and they deal a lot more damage than other glass canons; so overall they are more effective than any other glass canon build in every single way.

I do agree that thief burst needs to be toned down, or made in a way that it is possible to react to, because atm this game is a lot less fun not only for the hardcore players but also the casual who wants to log on for a few hours and have fun with game, instead of getting insta killed over and over.
Simply said, it makes me laugh that people try and argue the fact thats its okay to have an “Insta kill” ability because you have a window of 0.3 seconds to react to it.
Insta kill should not exist in any video game and detracts from the fun of the game, hopefully Arena net address this issue at the nearest time frame possible.

I play a thief and I agree with the principle, I just disagree with the fact that people believe that a thief is going to come in and instagib somebody and get out easily unless it’s a 2v1 situation in favor of the thief (and yes, those situations are frequent and it’s what makes the option of going full glass without any repercussions overpoerwered).

However, in any situation where the thief instagibs one player and is faced with 1 or 2 more opponents on that node, escaping is not as easy as you make it out to be, so that any nerf (once again I stress that this is warranted), has to be accompanied by a survivability buff.

If you go in and instagib somebody and even manage to quickness stomp (something that you should be able to avoid in the first place, as you can activate downed skills even before you actually see them on your screen), you are not going to be able to easily stealth away. You’ll have no endurance and you can not be pressured by anybody or you will simply have to retreat entirely (initiative permitting).

If you do not manage to get the stomp off and the player is actually revived, you are a sitting duck (obviously this is only true for the thief builds we are discussing above, other builds, have way more options to stay in the fight, nobody is questioning that).

I wanted to ask some questions yesterday in order to get a statement on two subjects that I see as problematic, though being in a hurry I posted in the wrong thread. Might as well drop the “thief and bunker” question here, in hopes somebody reads it:

Q: Assuming you follow the current meta in the EU, you may have noticed that when both sides utilize a heavy burst thief (regardless of whether players deem this to be balanced or not), there’s a high chance that the thief coming out of stealth first and actively participating in the match, is going to put his team at a disadvantage, as he’s most certainly being taken out instantly by the opposing thief.

As a result these two thieves usually play their own 1v1 match within the match itself. I honestly believe that this is not the way matches should be played or decided (4v5 on the map for 20+ seconds usually means you lose the team fights or small skirmishes on a node).

I am certainly curious how much the burst would be slowed down if Steal was given a 1/4s casting time.

For the regular C&D, Steal, Backstab combo it would obviously be a huge nerf. For the burst out of stealth, it would make no difference, except for the fact that it’d be harder to apply on moving targets.

Damage is fine imo, the problem is quickness. With quickness you cannot react. Without quickness you get hit with CnD+mug but then can avoid backstab in a number of ways.

what is the difference between a thief who come at you and when he steal u dodge and a mesmer who can dodge/spam clones and at a moment he swap u dodge? they both kill you at the end. want to reduce burst? ok reduce all burst. thx gg

Nerfing backstab directly is really going to hurt thieves who don’t use the stupid front-load everything and blow all utils to (maybe) kill one newb combo.

I’m not saying that something shouldn’t be done, I think it’s pretty cheesy too. I just hope the devs think before they nerf the whole class across the board when the problem seems to lie more with Mug + CnD (and people’s inability to react fast enough to the combo).

Ideally, I think it would be a good solution to simply slow down the Mug + CnD instead of straight damage nerfs (we’ve seen what happens when they do this, 50% damage nerf on Dancing Dagger anyone?). Alternatively, maybe make Basilisk Venom not apply via Mug, or make it a trait that they must pick up.

The solution is to nerf the damage modifiers that you can pick up through traits, nothing else. It’s obvious to anybody who has actually put some thought into it and actually played it.

Why do scholar runes add such a huge amount of damage? Why can you pick up 4 traits with damage multipliers of 10, 10 , 20 and 5% respectively that are additive? That’s the root of the issue.

Damage multipliers through traits for each and every class need to be non-additive. The highest multiplier takes precedence, period. Problem solved (once that’s done and we still run into issues, look at crit damage multipliers, because it doesn’t sit well with me that the difference between a non-crit and a crit can make a difference of up to 400+% in an attacks damage. That’s just too broad of a damage spread).

Edit: Before anybody asks 400+% is comparing a non-crit under weakness and a crit (weakness has no effect on crits) with all the crit damage multipliers, you usually see on glass cannons. Bring these closer together, in order to be able to balance damage output easier.

Obviously this needs to happen at the same time as bunkers are nerfed.

Xeph.4513:

Before I say anything I would just like to say that I have played thief and I understand what the class is capable of doing.

A lot of people in this post don’t seem to realise that the issue isn’t only the damage, but the fact that thieves can come in at any point in the fight and insta gib / stomp someone before the rest of the team can react and that is really bad game design and not really enjoyable for players on the receiving end.
There is little you can do to stop a thief from one shoting a player who is already engaged in combat with another player and than getting insta stomped by quickness.

What people fail to understand is it makes little to no difference how much toughness the thief has, if you can’t hit him in the first place or the fact that he can disengage most fights at will.
If you wish to compare thief to other glass canons your going to find that they are far more effective, because they are harder to kill, harder to stomp, harder to keep track of and they deal a lot more damage than other glass canons; so overall they are more effective than any other glass canon build in every single way.

I do agree that thief burst needs to be toned down, or made in a way that it is possible to react to, because atm this game is a lot less fun not only for the hardcore players but also the casual who wants to log on for a few hours and have fun with game, instead of getting insta killed over and over.
Simply said, it makes me laugh that people try and argue the fact thats its okay to have an “Insta kill” ability because you have a window of 0.3 seconds to react to it.
Insta kill should not exist in any video game and detracts from the fun of the game, hopefully Arena net address this issue at the nearest time frame possible.

Xeph, if you’ve played the thief enough to get the most of it as you said, you should know the thief is not capable to do anything useful in a team environment if not being a burst class.

Altough i agree that thief burst should be toned down ( and my main is a thief), i currently believe the thief has no other option at its disposal, and the situation won’t change without huge revamping/ nerf-buff chains of/to the whole class.

The thief is an abort of class design, probably the embrace of how bad this game was balanced in the last months of development ( and if you played the alpha/beta, you should know what i mean).

for reference…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/How-to-fix-my-class-thief-for-PvP/first#post1156118

Xeph.4513:

A lot of people in this post don’t seem to realise that the issue isn’t only the damage, but the fact that thieves can come in at any point in the fight and insta gib / stomp someone before the rest of the team can react and that is really bad game design and not really enjoyable for players on the receiving end.

xeph, i really appreciate your post. this happens to me all the time on my ranger bunker. ranger bunker is a high skill cap bunker that’s very rewarding to play when mastered. i could be handling 1 or 2 guys on point, barely surviving, hovering between 6-12k health lets say. and some thief roamer, who i cant see coming, will come in and instagib me for 13k burst on 2k toughness, instantly.

the problem is – WHERE IS THE SKILL? how am i to react to the most reliable single target burst in the game when i cant see it coming? it’s like getting smitten by lightning from the sky. basically, i just have to “deal” and take it. there’s no other explanation.

i fully support the thief getting some additional buffs to make it more appealing, but this ridiculous one-trick pony approach is just a bandaid for a class thats pretty underwhelming.

come on devs, i thought u said prior to release that you wanted fights to be strategic, without “headshot” type abilities in the game. the BS/mug/quickness or whatever combo is basically a sniper’s headshot from CoD or BF3.

nerva.7940:

xeph, i really appreciate your post. this happens to me all the time on my ranger bunker. ranger bunker is a high skill cap bunker that’s very rewarding to play when mastered.

People tend to only see their side of the story. It took me a single day to make a ranger bunker unkillable by 1-2 people. Where is the skill in that?

And yeah, as you can read, I don’t disagree with the principle of burst being too high, though do not make the mistake of wanting to balance in a vacuum. These thieves are running these builds, because, foremost, it’s necessary and only then because it’s easy and effective.

The reason rangers are not a topic yet is because very few people have caught onto their bunkering capabilities. Rangers are just as cheesy if not more so than guardians and elementalists. Both ends of the spectrum need to be addressed for this game to become balanced.

not sure what level you play at, but bunker ranger is one of the weakest bunkers and can easily be killed by 2 coordinated people. u can still buy time, but two good players can win eventually. ranger is the least cheesy, and most balanced bunker in the game right now, with no stability and hard-countered by one or two immobilizes. anyway, this thread isnt about the ranger. i was just giving one example.

please dont start arguing that thieves are a good counter to bunkers, because theyre not. the high burst is good against any target and limits the number of viable specs.

Med.6150:

The solution is to nerf the damage modifiers that you can pick up through traits, nothing else. It’s obvious to anybody who has actually put some thought into it and actually played it.

Why do scholar runes add such a huge amount of damage? Why can you pick up 4 traits with damage multipliers of 10, 10 , 20 and 5% respectively that are additive? That’s the root of the issue.

Obviously this needs to happen at the same time as bunkers are nerfed.

what you say is very true
but
1)fix to this will hurt every build not the problematic bs .
2) anet will not likely do this massive revamp in the near future.
3) true and true again to nerf bunkers but this need to happen in the same time as burst nerf.

Mrbig i don’t see it the way you are,thieves can go venom share and they have good group utilities they can share boons & so on & so on
but i do agree thats not as viable as just going burst romer in the current state of the meta.

anet sure needs to give some buff to group support to the profession maybe then we wont see so many cheesy builds.
this role realy need to viable for a thief.

nerva.7940:

not sure what level you play at, but bunker ranger is one of the weakest bunkers and can easily be killed by 2 coordinated people. u can still buy time, but two good players can win eventually. ranger is the least cheesy, and most balanced bunker in the game right now, with no stability and hard-countered by one or two immobilizes. anyway, this thread isnt about the ranger. i was just giving one example.

Any bunker can be killed by two coordinated, “good” people. Ranger is by far the strongest bunker in terms of damage, though. Either way, I didn’t intend to derail this topic, I was simply pointing out that things that might look balanced from your perspective may not be.

In fact, if you are trying to subtly imply that stalling two people as the “most balanced bunker” in game is fine, then you are making a case for those thieves who run these setups in order to actually be able to neutralize bunkers.

cottage.3274:

easy fix with 0 dmg nerf not a direct one anyway
c&d cannot be precast from steal
and /or
c&d cannot be cast on the move
also
hs cost 5/6 initiative to avoid the dumb skiless spam

keeps the high dmg lose the unskilled gameplay.

Making CnD not work with steal has potential. However, forcing CnD users to remain stationary would completely destroy that skill throughout the entire game, and it might as well be removed completely. If you couldn’t move while using it, you’d never be able to hit anyone with it pretty much ever.

cottage.3274:

Med.6150:

The solution is to nerf the damage modifiers that you can pick up through traits, nothing else. It’s obvious to anybody who has actually put some thought into it and actually played it.

Why do scholar runes add such a huge amount of damage? Why can you pick up 4 traits with damage multipliers of 10, 10 , 20 and 5% respectively that are additive? That’s the root of the issue.

Obviously this needs to happen at the same time as bunkers are nerfed.

what you say is very true
but
1)fix to this will hurt every build not the problematic bs .
2) anet will not likely do this massive revamp in the near future.
3) true and true again to nerf bunkers but this need to happen in the same time as burst nerf.

Mrbig i don’t see it the way you are,thieves can go venom share and they have good group utilities they can share boons & so on & so on
but i do agree thats not as viable as just going burst romer in the current state of the meta.

anet sure needs to give some buff to group support to the profession maybe then we wont see so many cheesy builds.
this role realy need to viable for a thief.

Nope, thieves can’t go venom share.

Condition thieves are useless in a team environment, venom share are the "less"useless among them but they don’t give consistent advantage to your team, neither they give your team decent sustain, and drop like flies to burst.

They can spread a very little amount of conditions, easily AoE removed by a single ele dodging in water attunment.

Currently burst is the only way to play as a thief, and that’s why we only play burst: because we have no other choice.

without burst, the thief is the worst class in the game, yet people is too dedicated to QQs instead of thinking about a way to balance this game.

it’s not our job to think about how to balance the game. if anything, we raise the concern, devs deal with it. i think players have been more than generous with suggestions though. suggestions to fixing the thief are all over the forums.

im sure everyone recognizes that thieves are subpar in other areas and need buffing. at the same time, the BS burst combo has been ignored by devs for way too long. i mean, thieves are one-shotting people 6 months later!!!

The game is going to be FIVE months old in 10 days, let’s be realistic here. I keep reading the 6 months stuff, when it’s been 4 months and 3 weeks since it has gone live.

Med.6150:

The game is going to be FIVE months old in 10 days, let’s be realistic here. I keep reading the 6 months stuff, when it’s been 4 months and 3 weeks since it has gone live.

many are including beta where these issues were presented on day 1 along with the complete lack of features that we assumed would be in at release.

Med.6150:

For the regular C&D, Steal, Backstab combo it would obviously be a huge nerf. For the burst out of stealth, it would make no difference, except for the fact that it’d be harder to apply on moving targets.

I think that’s all that’d be needed. If I can actually react to it then I’d be golden. I’d need to actually see what it does though to the combo, since I have no idea how much time I’d have to react if they are hasted w/ basilisk regardless.

0.3 second is all thats needed for the human brain to register and send information to limbs. if this is what we have to react to a large amount of burst, then it’s fair. those not paying attention get punished, and highly skilled players with excellent awareness can dodge the initial nuke. good ideas. but mug, or other trait damage coefficients would need a nerf as well.

nerva.7940:

i could be handling 1 or 2 guys on point, barely surviving, hovering between 6-12k health lets say. and some thief roamer, who i cant see coming, will come in and instagib me for 13k burst on 2k toughness, instantly.

the problem is – WHERE IS THE SKILL? how am i to react to the most reliable single target burst in the game when i cant see it coming? it’s like getting smitten by lightning from the sky. basically, i just have to “deal” and take it. there’s no other explanation.

This bit here shows your mentality. You think that you should be able to be in a fight, 2 on 1 even, be “hovering” around 6-10K health and be able to survive a burst profession piling on you while distracted.

The fact is, if you have the awareness to see a Thief coming and the cool-downs you can prepare yourself for the burst, even if you are already fighting but if you don’t even notice them then there is no way you can nor should you survive.

I think the only solution here is to increase thief damage across the board by 68.3% and make them immune to immobilize / cripple.

At least, that’s the only obvious solution to me.

Stiv.1820:

nerva.7940:

i could be handling 1 or 2 guys on point, barely surviving, hovering between 6-12k health lets say. and some thief roamer, who i cant see coming, will come in and instagib me for 13k burst on 2k toughness, instantly.

the problem is – WHERE IS THE SKILL? how am i to react to the most reliable single target burst in the game when i cant see it coming? it’s like getting smitten by lightning from the sky. basically, i just have to “deal” and take it. there’s no other explanation.

This bit here shows your mentality. You think that you should be able to be in a fight, 2 on 1 even, be “hovering” around 6-10K health and be able to survive a burst profession piling on you while distracted.

The fact is, if you have the awareness to see a Thief coming and the cool-downs you can prepare yourself for the burst, even if you are already fighting but if you don’t even notice them then there is no way you can nor should you survive.

he doesnt need 13-16k burst to kill me, thats the point. maybe 6-10k. BS thieves generally just overkill the target. in fact, id love to see an overkill damage counter.

nerva.7940:

Stiv.1820:

nerva.7940:

i could be handling 1 or 2 guys on point, barely surviving, hovering between 6-12k health lets say. and some thief roamer, who i cant see coming, will come in and instagib me for 13k burst on 2k toughness, instantly.

the problem is – WHERE IS THE SKILL? how am i to react to the most reliable single target burst in the game when i cant see it coming? it’s like getting smitten by lightning from the sky. basically, i just have to “deal” and take it. there’s no other explanation.

This bit here shows your mentality. You think that you should be able to be in a fight, 2 on 1 even, be “hovering” around 6-10K health and be able to survive a burst profession piling on you while distracted.

The fact is, if you have the awareness to see a Thief coming and the cool-downs you can prepare yourself for the burst, even if you are already fighting but if you don’t even notice them then there is no way you can nor should you survive.

he doesnt need 13-16k burst to kill me, thats the point. maybe 6-10k. BS thieves generally just overkill the target.

That’s silly…you’re talking about a 1 v 3. I am by no way condoning thief burst, but your reason for it (being that you are being dropped in a 1 v 3 by a thief you can’t see) is just as silly as their damage.

nerva.7940:

Stiv.1820:

nerva.7940:

i could be handling 1 or 2 guys on point, barely surviving, hovering between 6-12k health lets say. and some thief roamer, who i cant see coming, will come in and instagib me for 13k burst on 2k toughness, instantly.

the problem is – WHERE IS THE SKILL? how am i to react to the most reliable single target burst in the game when i cant see it coming? it’s like getting smitten by lightning from the sky. basically, i just have to “deal” and take it. there’s no other explanation.

This bit here shows your mentality. You think that you should be able to be in a fight, 2 on 1 even, be “hovering” around 6-10K health and be able to survive a burst profession piling on you while distracted.

The fact is, if you have the awareness to see a Thief coming and the cool-downs you can prepare yourself for the burst, even if you are already fighting but if you don’t even notice them then there is no way you can nor should you survive.

he doesnt need 13-16k burst to kill me, thats the point. maybe 6-10k. BS thieves generally just overkill the target. in fact, id love to see an overkill damage counter.

You asked “how am I to react”. I said in that situation you shouldn’t be able to. Now you are saying it’s fine to get insta killed in this situation, just not by so much?

Pyrial.2917:

nerva.7940:

Stiv.1820:

nerva.7940:

i could be handling 1 or 2 guys on point, barely surviving, hovering between 6-12k health lets say. and some thief roamer, who i cant see coming, will come in and instagib me for 13k burst on 2k toughness, instantly.

the problem is – WHERE IS THE SKILL? how am i to react to the most reliable single target burst in the game when i cant see it coming? it’s like getting smitten by lightning from the sky. basically, i just have to “deal” and take it. there’s no other explanation.

This bit here shows your mentality. You think that you should be able to be in a fight, 2 on 1 even, be “hovering” around 6-10K health and be able to survive a burst profession piling on you while distracted.

The fact is, if you have the awareness to see a Thief coming and the cool-downs you can prepare yourself for the burst, even if you are already fighting but if you don’t even notice them then there is no way you can nor should you survive.

he doesnt need 13-16k burst to kill me, thats the point. maybe 6-10k. BS thieves generally just overkill the target.

That’s silly…you’re talking about a 1 v 3. I am by no way condoning thief burst, but your reason for it (being that you are being dropped in a 1 v 3 by a thief you can’t see) is just as silly as their damage.

i am not talking about a 1v3. at all. not even close. im talking about receiving ridiculous amounts of burst damage without having any control over it. it cannot be seen coming, it cannot be dodged.

Stiv.1820:

You asked “how am I to react”. I said in that situation you shouldn’t be able to. Now you are saying it’s fine to get insta killed in this situation, just not by so much?

that is absolutely ridiculous. forget the example. lets say i was 1v1’ing someone, and i was at 13k health. im as good as dead.

- no risk
- huge burst
- cant be dodged
- can be repeated quickly
- reliable

i would really like to invite experienced thief players like Xeph to come out and just support greater build diversity for the thief, and a trait coefficient nerf for the BS build. arguing against this is wasting time, and not caring about your game.