Guild Wars 2

I dont mean remove hot join altogether, what i mean is with numerous Empty servers available why on earth are hot join matches still 8v8. i could imagine that it was originally to allow more players to play hot join matches without a queue time, but that obviously isnt an issue. the community will probably tell me to go play free tournaments, and that is valid. but with the game and SPVP in general being balanced around the top tier games and tournaments why make hot joins 8v8 ? i believe that if you make hot joins 5v5 you will see a decrease in zergs, a more suitable place to test builds, a more casual friendly environment and a way for entry level players to get there feet wet and see what structured PvP is all about.

if you have never played PVP or MMO PVP at all before and you joined the hot join matches, i believe that :

A: New player will be completely distraught and avoid PVP entirely

B: New player finds the zerg style highly enjoyable and creates and learns a build that performs very well in 8v8 zerg style. enters tournaments when he feels good enough and gets destroyed.

C: New player goes to the forums researches and looks to see what is viable and what isnt. follows said advice and wants to practice in hot joins and gets destroyed, believing that the build has been nerfed or he just sucks, not realizing that the build would be perfectly good in tournaments.

this isnt a Post about casuals who are experienced although they are affected as well, this is about entry level PVP and what it teaches new players what Spvp is all about.

there will come a point where Spvp tournaments paid or free will become smaller and smaller as teams move on to other games over time, or simply get bored facing the same teams over and over. This will increase queue times longer and longer until they will just stop. the solution to this is to teach or provide a place where New players can learn.

hot join matches are the suggested place for this to occur but hot join matches are not even close to what tournament level of play is like. even IF a new player learns his class and many others, the zerg beats skill everytime. it becomes frustrating and ruins his experience. this essentially stops players from wanting to get better or maybe avoid PVP altogether. creating a smaller player base willing to go the extra mile and start his progression to tougher challenges.

AS a Strong PVPer from other games, I personally feel that new blood into the PvP community is required for a PVP community to flourish. with this current system in place it is a barrier and will diminish new, potentially strong PVPers from ever going further due to frustration.

Before my fellow PVPers say they can join free tournaments or they can join a PVP guild, imagine this:

you have never PVPed before, you finally have the courage to enter in this new environment completely different from PVE or any other game mode available, you know you need to learn and you know that it wont be easy. So a tournament isnt even in your mind as a place to learn. thats a higher level of competition than you are ready for. Why would a PvP guild want you if you dont know what you are doing yet?
these are the thoughts that most people associate with guilds. high end PVE guilds dont accept new players to high end PVE why would a PVP guild want a new PVPer.

so you are left with hot join.

the worst part about it, is that new players and most players in general do not go to the forums, they dont research, and they dont bother to learn any other way accept through in game methods(tutorial zones).

they wont read this post or any other post here.

Arena Net should change 8v8 to 5v5 to allow easier access for new players to learn, experiment and develop into stronger players. increasing the accessability of PVP and encouraging growth within the PVP community.

Solution for all.
And what I actually thought was going to be introduced at launch…
Custom servers…

SPvP right now is garbage, you jump in random servers with random people and solo your way threw it (since short of high level play near any teamwork is nonexistant)… it gets rather boring rather fast. The game isn’t even made for 8v8s… yet that or empty servers is all the game tends to throw at, at least, me…
Honestly your post probably won’t go far, learning to play in smaller scale fights is a wonderful cushion to learning a new game but isn’t “necessary” so won’t really go anywhere.
Yes though I’d agree on one level, people should start out fighting 1v1s, 2v2s, exc. to get the game’s basics down then move up. Giving new players every class skill to learn, speccing to learn (half the abilities are just bad), combat in a game unlike any other to learn and chucking them into 8v8s (in a game balanced for smaller combat) all the while, is just kitten
Oh and regarding the transition between SPvP and tournies… it isn’t THAT big of a gap between what works in an 8v8 pug verse 5v5 pug match (since you are talking free tourny, it tends to be pug crazy).

Dueling is interesting, in allot of games I’ve actually sat in the main city and dueled random people for hours straight, tragically this game is just frustrating when trying to find duels. Some times you get that ‘play now’ -> a group with other rank 38~ people… the majority of time, I’m thrown in an empty or, on occasion, nearly full server and have to wait 10~ minutes to be able to click ‘play now’ again and try to get matched with people of my level or randomly guess out of the 50~ servers which has players of my skill level…

(I played WAR for 1 intense year before starting to consider the word ‘bored’ to describe what I felt like when playing it, then came back after a year or so and played for another enjoyable one. This game has a much better setup for PvP, yet I am already bored with it and it has only been 2~ months. F FS, Rift lasted longer than that…)

I am sorry , but they have to join free tournaments

We have tons of ppl not liking GW2 PvE , cause if doesnt have a <<8-10 man istances>>
More ppl = more fun for some
The same could apply for PvP

It might be cool for 40-60 ppl posting in the PvP section to remove the 8v8 format but it is 110% approved , it will backfire and inv more agry customers to the forums , demanding <<more larger-epiq fights>> (like any other mmo game)

When the sPvP , dies out (nobody will play it) we could ask them to reduce it
Now there are 30+ servers , that ppl enjoy

This is my idea. To eliminate long queue times, we wipe out the current hotjoin system and simply merge the PUG pool into free tourneys.

Now Lets say there are groups of 1, 2 ,3 and 4 palyers queueing

Teams will be matched accordingly
five solo vs five solo
2 1 1 1 vs mirror
2 2 1 vs mirror
3 1 1 vs mirror
3 2 vs mirror
4 1 vs mirror

I like that idea gwawer. The hotjoin, random switch for balance, and other factors make spvp rather unfun. IMO. But what can you expect from the outfit that had ‘Random Arenas’ in GW1? 4v4 full random. winners stayed together for the next match- losers had to requeue for another totally random team. THAT sucked. The current gw2 system is better, but still sucks compared to WoWs random Battlegrounds (and Arena). (I will not play WoW anymore though, due to gear grind and scoring system.) I just wish they could keep the balance and equal gear that they (more or less) have, and have the format of WoWs pvp.

you guys are making it way too complicated, change the hot join to 5v5 and alot of issues will be fixed. the other issue was stated in another post is to fix glory rewards and allow more glory for winning and less glory for zerging…those 2 things will allow for a more balanced and more fun hot join system. making it fun and easy for entry level pvpers to learn and practice. there are currently 40+ empty servers for hotjoins and the rest maybe half are not completely full…there will not be queue times if you just make it 5v5.

@Killhealers:

until the create new and different maps balanced around having more people, then that just wont happen and i am only saying this because the current maps are balanced for 5v5…it merely makes sense for the hot joins to be 5v5…

with the amount of empty servers, there is no reason to force new pvpers in to a tournament environment. just the word tournament is daunting for new players. its pretty bad that if new pvpers want a balanced experience they have to jump into tourneys at glory rank 1.

not to mention the experienced players are now forced to play against alot of inexperienced players and that isnt fun either, for either side. having three levels of pvp is a good thing. novice apprentice and master level pvp bracketing so to speak. the hot join if changed to 5v5 would be great for beginners and casuals to play on a whim, as the players become better and want a tougher challenge they go to the free tourneys, and once they feel confident with there team, on to the master level with paid tourneys. this system seems fair, rewarding and would be very very good.

i may not be a programmer but adjusting max players should be easy to do compared to trying to build a matchmaking system that was proposed. and i highly doubt there will be queue times at all, with the amount of empty servers around. if this change is made with the introduction of rented private servers this would make it even more manageable.

i say again simply change 8v8 to 5v5 modify glory rewards to promote winning games vs kill farming and then the system we have now will be really well done.

Rankings and dropping 3/4 of the SPvP servers for custom servers.

A bit more work but far better rewards.
I don’t see the PvP being notably different if it were just 5v5s in SPvP instead of 8v8s.

Psychrome.9281:

…i believe that if you make hot joins 5v5 you will see a decrease in zergs, a more suitable place to test builds, a more casual friendly environment and a way for entry level players to get there feet wet and see what structured PvP is all about…

there will come a point where Spvp tournaments paid or free will become smaller and smaller as teams move on to other games over time, or simply get bored facing the same teams over and over. This will increase queue times longer and longer until they will just stop. the solution to this is to teach or provide a place where New players can learn.

hot join matches are the suggested place for this to occur but hot join matches are not even close to what tournament level of play is like. even IF a new player learns his class and many others, the zerg beats skill everytime. it becomes frustrating and ruins his experience. this essentially stops players from wanting to get better or maybe avoid PVP altogether. creating a smaller player base willing to go the extra mile and start his progression to tougher challenges.

…

Arena Net should change 8v8 to 5v5 to allow easier access for new players to learn, experiment and develop into stronger players. increasing the accessability of PVP and encouraging growth within the PVP community.

Seconded.

If Anet would like a place for new players to learn their classes and try out their builds, custom servers are the spots for it. We now know that these are on their way, at last.

As mentioned in previous posts, what is seen in most 8v8 hotjoins are zergs and players mostly playing as solo characters, with a tiny amount of team dynamics and coordination. These hotjoins simply reinforces the wrong style of play, especially if it is the intended purpose of bringing the player base, eventually, toward tournament play. It’s not that these players can simply join free tourney games; the fact that 8v8 hotjoins are there breeds a wrong understanding of the real sPVP GW intends to portray. As the overall hotjoin player base gets more accustomed to 8v8s, shifting them to 5v5s will create other unnecessary thorns and community dissonance. If left as the way it is, you will have two distinct sPVP player bases with distinct playstyles, and could eventually lead to balancing dilemmas. Yet that is still not the greatest concern. As the current high level player base move further up the “skill ladder”, who are going to fill their place? Where are the new blood going to come from?

We’ve got to give new players a chance to learn the proper dynamics of a map and its relation to the team – and not perpetuate a false understanding of GW’s intended sPVP.

Remove 8v8s and move them all to 5v5s.

As an aside:

1) The way that gaining ranks through rank points; and
2) That glory points for acquiring better looking gear

are both tied to the points gained in a match, is perverting hotjoin games – involving people simply farming for glory. Arguably, the means to gain points are aligned with objectives and purposes of a map, but then you keep seeing more than a necessary amount of people capping points. Perhaps, we have come full circle, that these maps we currently have are not designed for 16 people.

Psychrome.9281:

i say again simply change 8v8 to 5v5 modify glory rewards to promote winning games vs kill farming and then the system we have now will be really well done.

Rewards for winning is out of the question
I have met 9-10 till now , in the free tournaments that kittentom us for loosing , calling us any <<name>> u could imagine + going afk

I have played other games , where this attitude happens 100% all the time

If they want reward to winning and the attitude that brings , they should play other game

Again ppl play hotjoin
Cassuals like me , love to fight sometimes in a massive clusterzergs
If ppl are fed up with the zerg , they can go in TPvP

So we have 2 different systems for 2 different kind of ppl

Ppl for example in WoW love Walsong Gulcht , with the epiq massive mid fight , instead of the objectives

Edit: I can understand the problem , that a person cant learn to play when he getiing attacked by 2-3 enemies every sec , but the same aply to other games . For example in WoW there isnt any 5v5 format and u still get attacked by 2-3 players , even if u defend .
PPl join the <<zerg >> there too

@killthehealer

im not a big fan of WoW and i didnt do any PVP in that game, but what i am saying is that the maps we currently have are balanced for 5v5, they arent balanced for 8v8 they are too small and the ease at traveling between nodes is too short to have more than 5 players on a team for it to be played as it was intended. this game also has a far better mode for people who like EPIC LARGE SCALE fights, this is called WVWVW. even in the name Structured PVP is a sense that it should rely more on tactics and point defense then zerging randomly.

i see your point but there has to be a SPVP map that is balanced around larger scale fights(increase of mapsize / different objective style) before that will become a fun style.

the simple truth is this hotjoins will continue to be zerg fests and completely ignore the issues that are plagueing it because they are going to focus more on TPVP. i agree with this and will support ANET but they jsut need to change those SPVP fights to 5v5 and alot more people will be happy if you like large scale fights go do WVWVW

holy crap, Im prob the only person on this thread whose name you can google and see top level pvp in more than one game over the past 15 years, and I am all three… a b and c but im not a newb (ok IRL i am but not in gaming)
you sir need to predict the weather!!

but I gotta say, I like 8v8. wanna know who dosent like 8v8? people who play classes suited for soloing. like thieves mezmers and thieves and sometimes thieves.
I find it funny how I play my guardian who is supposidly UNKILLABLE and GODMODE, and in 8v8 i am constantly steamrolled. now I have noticed its not that its god mode or broken in 8v8, pve or wvwvw its just that it only seems unkillable godmode when you are being attacked by one thief/warrior/mezmer who is speced to roam and have speed and is attacking you and has to kill you in less than 40 seconds.

I say keep variety in the game, heck man, Im almost wanting to say bring in a 10v10 gameset. Why am i playing a support spec and my buffs only get to hit 2 people?

Bishop i agree with you that more variety is a good thing, but to be fair wouldnt a ten v ten map be even more fun if it was a much larger map witha different style of play maybe even a death match mode? i dont know there are so many possibilities. i am only asking for the current matches to be changed to what they are truly balanced for. add new maps for this, add new map types, but make it balanced for the amount for players. i have seen videos of warsong gultch that was mentioned earlier inthe post, the map is HUGE! if they had maps that size then sure please make a 8v8 or ten v ten style play.

my goal here is to advocate balance for SPVP in regards to map size. this and only this. in the future sure add new maps for larger sized groups. heck maybe even change 8v8 to 5v5 the same day they add a new larger pvp map, made for larger groups. Make it balanced around the larger size groups. then you can appeal to both versions, but in my opinion the current maps are not balanced for 8v8 and just isnt fun.

i disagree i play mostly ranger and necros and a guardian from time to time, and i dont care what class i play, the maps are balanced for 5v5 and should never have more than that.

New to the game here, but I’m wondering about the evidence for your assertion that the maps are balanced for 5 people.

It’s not like it’s just this MMO design team that thinks a three-flag map supports more than 5 people….just about every single one does. (In WAR it was 12, in WoW it was always more than a group).

The problems don’t seem to be the maps at all, it my initial opinion it’s that combat in the game overall seems designed to be balanced at 5 people (or less)….which is a sad mistake IMO. (I am finding myself wishing things had gone different for Mythic and Warhammer Online currently..but gonna keep giving it a chance to grow on me and maybe get fixed).

as far as evidence i can only provide personal experience with this game and others. you may be correct that combat is balanced for 5 players, i do not believe this to be the case.

the difference between GW2 and Rift or SWTOR or even WOW is that the maps in those games were larger it took far more time to cross from one side of the map to the other. the systems involved point defense were different, in those games players had to interact with doors or flags or what not to cap a point and a sneaky person could cap even if there were multiple defenders.

with the current map size and the way points are capped feels very crowded when there are more than 10 people on the map, it becomes challenging with 5 people on your team , with 8 its all about rush from point to point with out a thought to defense or anything. it only takes one person present to cap a point if it is undefended and its a challenge when it is defended for 1 or 2 people to take over that node. when there are 6 to 8 people roaming and taking points there is no challenge for the 6-8 the rush over anyone silly enough to defend. and if the other team happens to be at that node its TDM and it stops being about holding and keeping objectives and its just a zerg vs zerg.

in a 5 v 5 match it begins to be more about strategy and winning the game via points from node control and less about slaughtering the other team with high numbers. the maps are the exact same from tourney to hotjoin and the game completely changes from hot join to tournament style play because of this.

if people want large scale battles wvwvw is a very well designed place for it and the maps are huge! lots of room for mass battles and lots of objectives for those large battles. i feel the game has done a very good job designing both spvp and wv3. with bug fixes and minor class balance changes the game will be very good indeed. except for the 8v8 for hot joins.

I honestly haven’t seen any issue with people staying together and running eight in a hotjoin maps so far….they split up almost immediately. Even if they had, the fact you’re calling eight people a zerg is pointing to a weakness in this game and one that I’m sort of noticing (sadly) already. That’s not a zerg in any other game unless you’re running around solo…. but here an 8v8 does seem to be spell effect soup and button mashing.