Guild Wars 2

AI builds are annoying, not fun to play or play against, require no skill and to strong in 1v1 situations.

I’m talking about turret engis, MM necros, pet zoo rangers.
They’re killing the fun in soloQ. Buff some of their other builds and remove these ASAP.

If you got rid of every build that took the same amount of skill as AI builds you wouldn’t be left with many builds, and we’d lose the entire Warrior profession.

All of them are not viable so i don’t know why u are complaining cause they can be easily countered and cause of that they are not viable in top 50 tpvp.I am afraid is l2p issue

Will never happen diversity is encouraged(many like AI).

Paragon.5479:

All of them are not viable so i don’t know why u are complaining cause they can be easily countered and cause of that they are not viable in top 50 tpvp.I am afraid is l2p issue

This guy kinda nailed it^^ though I would say some ai builds on the right map and with right team are viable but far from optimal.

Might as well remove Mesmer and Ranger from the game.

I’ve always loved pet classes, but I hate seeing them get buffed to being useful because then you see stuff like this.

I’d rather the build be garbage, so that A ) no one is crying to remove them from the game and B ) they feel extra bad when I kill them using one =D

Paragon.5479:

All of them are not viable so i don’t know why u are complaining cause they can be easily countered and cause of that they are not viable in top 50 tpvp.I am afraid is l2p issue

I’m sorry but there are so many things wrong with this statement.
a) the OP is probably not top 50 therefore his opinion is valid of the broad representation of pvp who are fed up of AI builds (stop suggesting the game should be revolved around the very few elite esports heroes)
b) they are viable (maybe not top 50 but again that is such a small (maybe 0.05%) representation.

So to dismiss his post as JUST a l2p issue is elitist, snobby, and down right ignorant…
Yes they can be countered but they are an issue in the pvp scene due to their brainless passive state and they need to be fixed.

Heaven forbid anyone just post this in one of the many topics on this that have already been started. MM Necros, lol really? All the minions can be kited and the necro can be easily killed. Turret Engineers, turrets are weak and die easily to aoe, lol again. Pet zoo rangers? You mean spirit rangers? Yet another easy kill.

And before you think I defend them cause I play them. I play power necro, static discharge engi, and zerker ranger. I lol a bit everytime I see an ai build simply because it is an easy kill. Sure they are fun to play, but anyone who knows what they are doing will beat them. And I’m not elitist, I’m just an average player.

In a game without healer its all about passives. There are three options which a build should have (and all builds played atm have them);

either or in combinations:

1. Doing damage while neglecting dmg (hambow knocks, sd thieves evades)

2. Passive damage → possibility to focus entirely on defense. (sigilproccs, rangers, tropical bird, mm necro, turret engi)

3. Passive defense → possibility to focus entirely on damage (eles, warriors)

this problem with passivity, AI etc. Can have two solutions:

1. Make a healer\supporter class and bigger teams.
this would help builds which lack in something and give more possibilities

(and\or)

2. Rework ALL skills so that:

- skills who deal damage cant also be used for defense (for example hambow knocks should do almost no damage.)

- skills who are defensive should deal almost no damage (passive heals deal no damage, but you dont have to decide when to go defensive. You always are. So all passive healing and dmg needs to go)

—> every decision should be based around the thought of: “attack or block?”. There shouldnt be skills who do both!

AI builds are fine, but when you KNOW that those engineers are running turret because that’s the only viable build and its strong. Than yeah they need some tweaking to not make them as powerful.

You know you got it right when your unable to predict what build a certain profession is going to play.

For example, I’m not sure if a warrior is going to play hambow, 100 blades, banner, stunlock, etc.

That is not the case, majority of warriors are easily identified as hambow because its too easy and powerful.

For example engineers, I’m not sure if they going to play HGH nades, flamethrower, sumo automated response (condi strong), bomb kit sumo, turrets.

That’s not the case, a majority of engineers right now are identified as turret because its too easy and powerful.

The point isn’t really that balance is bad right now. Point is right now a lot of the easy and powerful builds are the AI builds, and its not that they are bad its just they are way easier and powerful than other builds and its an annoying meta. You shouldn’t get rid of them, but when majority of people play MM necro, turret engy, its just not fun fighting against a bunch of mobs a majority of the time.

If its done right (balancing). The builds which are the strongest should be the hardest to play

… meanwhile my guard’s in the corner with spirit weapon and birds going un-noticed

Charak.9761:

… meanwhile my guard’s in the corner with spirit weapon and birds going un-noticed

Oh man I wish spirit weapons were viable the same for thief’s traps we need to buff those unpopular specs.

cheese.4739:

Paragon.5479:

Liam McColgan.7689:

Paragon.5479:

All of them are not viable so i don’t know why u are complaining cause they can be easily countered and cause of that they are not viable in top 50 tpvp.I am afraid is l2p issue

I’m sorry but there are so many things wrong with this statement.
a) the OP is probably not top 50 therefore his opinion is valid of the broad representation of pvp who are fed up of AI builds (stop suggesting the game should be revolved around the very few elite esports heroes)
b) they are viable (maybe not top 50 but again that is such a small (maybe 0.05%) representation.

So to dismiss his post as JUST a l2p issue is elitist, snobby, and down right ignorant…
Yes they can be countered but they are an issue in the pvp scene due to their brainless passive state and they need to be fixed.

This are ur stats and that means l2p as i mentioned in previous post ty for ur understanding pal

Wins 321
Loses 308
Win percent 51.03%
Highest rank 527
Time highest rank 2014-04-04 13:00:02
In top 1000 since 2014-02-15 22:00:01
Current rank 9000
Tpvp

Wins 729
Loses 685
Win percent 51.56%
Highest rank 622
Time highest rank 2014-02-26 14:00:01
In top 1000 since 2014-02-22 21:00:01
Current rank 9000

You can always come with ur team against mine and show me i am wrong

Azrael

Aaaand so you’re either trolling or really missing the point.

A top-tier player playing an AI build may not do well compared to a top-tier player running something else (and especially when up against a coordinated team who can easily shut them down). This isn’t being argued.

At comparable skill levels below upper tiers, though – and in an awful lot of soloq, since it’s much more effective to hold points there due to lower expected levels of communication – the amount of effort and skill needed to win with an AI build is much lower than that needed for others.

They’re not viable in your bracket? Cool! You can enjoy not being harassed by them, and stomping those few people who run them and somehow get mached up against your l33t pr0 teamz.

This doesn’t mean they’re fun to play against for everyone else, or that they’re not prevalent in other matchups.

You say l2p? Sure, people should learn how to fight/kill an MM or turret Engi or whatever, just as they should learn how to counter or deal with other popular setups… why not give some constructive advice, then? Surely you have lots to say on the topic since they’re so easy to beat, and if you’ve got time to go pull someone’s stats from gw2score you’ve definitely got at least a few seconds to type something more helpful out too!

Well they should show their build so we can help them but I’m more concerned about creating more AI or rather making them viable for other classes like thief or guard.

Sarision.6347:

Might as well remove Mesmer and Ranger from the game.

Exactly.

At least GW had skills that covert enemy spirits into your spirits, steals all their minions or does double damage against pets. There was opportunity to completely mess some one over if they went too deeply into a pet build.

oh and like Cheese said, you are either an annoying troll, or you really are an ignorant snob, even my stats tell you how inactive i am on the leader board, but this game is 2 years old, and the stats are from january-now…the vast majority of people play solo/hotjoin…..this game doesn’t revolve around 50 people…..The reason you give 2 kittens about your rank is because of the thousands of others who are below you, so show some respect bro.

cheese.4739:

At comparable skill levels below upper tiers, though – and in an awful lot of soloq, since it’s much more effective to hold points there due to lower expected levels of communication – the amount of effort and skill needed to win with an AI build is much lower than that needed for others.

This sounds like a cop-out to me. It sounds like someone running a pet build beat you, and now you’re trying to claim they really have no skill because they have pets and you don’t.

It’s the same thing people do with thieves and their invis. “It takes no skill to run up invis on someone and insta-gib them before they can react!”

Tolmos.8395:

cheese.4739:

At comparable skill levels below upper tiers, though - and in an awful lot of soloq, since it’s much more effective to hold points there due to lower expected levels of communication - the amount of effort and skill needed to win with an AI build is much lower than that needed for others.

This sounds like a cop-out to me. It sounds like someone running a pet build beat you, and now you’re trying to claim they really have no skill because they have pets and you don’t.

It’s the same thing people do with thieves and their invis. "It takes no skill to run up invis on someone and insta-gib them before they can react!"

Nah, I definitely strugged with them but have improved at picking my battles (zerk staff ele: probably shouldn’t try too many 1v1s). Necro minions, especially, become much easier to deal with through good use of AoE CC and dps. I will still probably die to a MM if I just run in, sure, but they’re pretty vulnerable if distracted by an ally or if I don’t get myself stuck amongst the minions.

One AI build that I am very sick of, though, is the point-holding turret engineer. The most frequently suggested ways to deal with them is ’just ranged AoE!’, but ranged AoE can only hit one turret at a time if they’re spread out, and particularly if they’ve been plonked in daft places around a node (like up high around the side nodes on Niflhel - even a Meteor Shower will likely only be able to hit two turrets at once on those nodes).
With damage reduction on turrets, and their natural no-crit status, it’s not even enough to chuck down a Lava Font then back off and forget - it takes several attacks to destroy even one turret, while the Engi is dancing about applying all their CC (and their own power/condi/mixed damage) and the other turrets within range (and the turret I’m attacking) are pewpewpewing away.
The time it takes to destroy well-placed turrets, then move in to cap a point, does not feel fair compared to the time it takes to set those turrets up during a moment of peace and then hold said node.
I am very, very happy to take on board any suggestions for dealing with such builds without coordinated team setups/efforts (that just can’t be expected outside of teamqueue).

Properly balancing risk vs reward and everything will be fine, regardless of build.

1. i really wish i was fighting players and not their pets 90% of the time
2. i really wish whole build bunker still dish out stupid dmg would go
3. i really wish brainless aoe/CC spam on point would get nerfed in some form and single target dmg (if landed) would be more rewarding in pvp… it really boggles my mind why brainless skilless aoe spam should be more rewarding than single target skills… i bet that not a single dev can give me any logical and good explanation why it should be the case
4. CC chain needs to go, wtb some sort of DR on CC and nerf to stab in exchange

Daishi.6027:

Properly balancing risk vs reward and everything will be fine, regardless of build.

so much this^^… right now it is too much off

Liam McColgan.7689:

oh and like Cheese said, you are either an annoying troll, or you really are an ignorant snob, even my stats tell you how inactive i am on the leader board, but this game is 2 years old, and the stats are from january-now…the vast majority of people play solo/hotjoin…..this game doesn’t revolve around 50 people…..The reason you give 2 kittens about your rank is because of the thousands of others who are below you, so show some respect bro.

That said game is balanced around high level of play not the majority of players who are actually not good at this game.

Procs are not much different from ai, it´s passive damage AND unavoidable. I don´t get why people trash ai so much when you can actually kill it / avoid it.

a t s e.9614:

Paragon.5479:

All of them are not viable so i don’t know why u are complaining cause they can be easily countered and cause of that they are not viable in top 50 tpvp.I am afraid is l2p issue

Maybe not tpvp but in top 50 solo Q they are viable. 2-3 turrets engineers per match in yolo Q. ( I’m rank 19 ATM)

Its pretty easy to be high ranked with a petting zoo build. Even if you suck the build carries.

Sorry, I need to correct this everytime I see this so it doesn’t get confused all over the place.

GW2 Terms
sPvP = PvP in general
tPvP = Queued Up Ranked PvP
TeamQ/teamq = Team Queue
SoloQ/soloq = Solo Q

Thanks~

Pls close the topic,construction worker cannot teach surgeon how to operate on some1 ,discussion here with some people is pointless,al builds do need some tweaks here and there but that’s it.Don’t make from a mouse a elephant

vincecontix.1264:

Liam McColgan.7689:

oh and like Cheese said, you are either an annoying troll, or you really are an ignorant snob, even my stats tell you how inactive i am on the leader board, but this game is 2 years old, and the stats are from january-now…the vast majority of people play solo/hotjoin…..this game doesn’t revolve around 50 people…..The reason you give 2 kittens about your rank is because of the thousands of others who are below you, so show some respect bro.

That said game is balanced around high level of play not the majority of players who are actually not good at this game.

yeh i agree i was being a little extreme, but someone who puts hours in to pvp, knows whats going on but isnt in top 50 or even 200 due to IRL commitments/bad luck with teams has as much right to express an opinion without some kittened esports wannabe (Paragon) coming up with the old ‘L2P’ cliche :P

The problem with the OP is the definition of skill is very narrow. A warrior often thinks there is no skill getting crushed from range. Range think there is no skill face rolling in close combat. Etc. Etc.

AI is not mindless at all. A turret engineer, a MM and a ranger require you really know what you are doing to do it well. They are also easy to counter.

Skill is such a relative term. I play an engineer with 3-4 kits. I wonder if I have to be more “skilled” than a player who only has 2 weapons and a couple utilities. (Play other classes so the answer is no). It is just a different type of skill mate.

Bombsaway.7198:

The problem with the OP is the definition of skill is very narrow. A warrior often thinks there is no skill getting crushed from range. Range think there is no skill face rolling in close combat. Etc. Etc.

AI is not mindless at all. A turret engineer, a MM and a ranger require you really know what you are doing to do it well. They are also easy to counter.

Skill is such a relative term. I play an engineer with 3-4 kits. I wonder if I have to be more “skilled” than a player who only has 2 weapons and a couple utilities. (Play other classes so the answer is no). It is just a different type of skill mate.

If I could like this 1,000 times I would. 10,000 even.

Every time I died to a backstabbing thief, I would say that required no skill. They pop out of nowhere, boom boom and I’m dead. So then I gave one a try and failed miserably. After an hour of not getting my intended results, I had to start to admit that there might be more to this than I thought.

I watch other Engineers flounder with their turret builds; I have no problem killing people with them and never have, but I also have over 1,000 gameplay hours devoted entirely to my turret engineer only, using nothing else. Knowing when to drop them, how to drop them, and when to pop their overloads are a HUGE part of the equation.

When I see people sit there and say “it requires no skill” now, after I spent literally hundreds of hours perfecting my gameplay using the build that before was called completely worthless, is a little perturbing.

I know I shouldn’t care, but it’s somewhat annoying to be stuck in a weird place where you suck if you win, and you suck if you lose… all because 1 or 2 people on forums don’t know how to counter a build once it gets buffed.

Honestly- I can’t wait until they nerf turrets again. I got used to them when they were garbage, and I liked using an unnoticed build and winning with something that wasn’t supposed to be usable.

Tolmos.8395:

Bombsaway.7198:

The problem with the OP is the definition of skill is very narrow. A warrior often thinks there is no skill getting crushed from range. Range think there is no skill face rolling in close combat. Etc. Etc.

AI is not mindless at all. A turret engineer, a MM and a ranger require you really know what you are doing to do it well. They are also easy to counter.

Skill is such a relative term. I play an engineer with 3-4 kits. I wonder if I have to be more “skilled” than a player who only has 2 weapons and a couple utilities. (Play other classes so the answer is no). It is just a different type of skill mate.

If I could like this 1,000 times I would. 10,000 even.

Every time I died to a backstabbing thief, I would say that required no skill. They pop out of nowhere, boom boom and I’m dead. So then I gave one a try and failed miserably. After an hour of not getting my intended results, I had to start to admit that there might be more to this than I thought.

I watch other Engineers flounder with their turret builds; I have no problem killing people with them and never have, but I also have over 1,000 gameplay hours devoted entirely to my turret engineer only, using nothing else. Knowing when to drop them, how to drop them, and when to pop their overloads are a HUGE part of the equation.

When I see people sit there and say “it requires no skill” now, after I spent literally hundreds of hours perfecting my gameplay using the build that before was called completely worthless, is a little perturbing.

I know I shouldn’t care, but it’s somewhat annoying to be stuck in a weird place where you suck if you win, and you suck if you lose… all because 1 or 2 people on forums don’t know how to counter a build once it gets buffed.

Honestly- I can’t wait until they nerf turrets again. I got used to them when they were garbage, and I liked using an unnoticed build and winning with something that wasn’t supposed to be usable.

Maybe turret engi takes so little skill that even backstab thief seemed hard to you in comparison…

Paragon.5479:

All of them are not viable

Pretty sure that power minionmancer and turret bunker are very powerful in their own rights. Also, every class becomes an AI class if they just wear the right runes.

Paragon.5479:

so i don’t know why u are complaining cause they can be easily countered

The counter is always AoE. If you’re not a power well Necromancer, a Grenadier or a zerker staff Elementalist, you’re probably going to have some issues simply because you didn’t accidentally roll your rock to their scissors during the period before anyone had even pressed “Join Game.” I guess a d/d Elementalist would work now too because they’re now even more broken than they were when the game was launched. I can’t care enough to think of other examples that would hard counter an AI cloud, but the point is that AI clouds are specifically “hard” countered. It’s never a matter of skill.

Paragon.5479:

I am afraid is l2p issue

Please don’t attempt to imply that there is some level of skill development in Guild Wars 2.

Sarision.6347:

Might as well remove Mesmer and Ranger from the game.

Also this.

It’s not the players’ fault that no MMO has never really succeeded in making a well-designed “pet” class (or even really attempted to make a good one after WoW released the Hunter). I mean, it is the players’ fault for playing such awful classes as the Ranger or the Mesmer, but honestly, they also play GW2, so we already know that they aren’t making good decisions.

Bombsaway.7198:

The problem with the OP is the definition of skill is very narrow. A warrior often thinks there is no skill getting crushed from range. Range think there is no skill face rolling in close combat. Etc. Etc.

AI is not mindless at all. A turret engineer, a MM and a ranger require you really know what you are doing to do it well. They are also easy to counter.

Skill is such a relative term. I play an engineer with 3-4 kits. I wonder if I have to be more “skilled” than a player who only has 2 weapons and a couple utilities. (Play other classes so the answer is no). It is just a different type of skill mate.

Very much this.

Does MM require the mechanical skill that people think of when they think skill? No. But it takes a unique skill to be able to not only track your own positioning, but the positioning of 5 of your pets at once, along with their HP (which you can only track by sight atm), and understanding how to play with that while doing all of your own skill management. Its like playing a support build where all of your allies are absolutely braindead.

Leeto.1570:

Tolmos.8395:

Bombsaway.7198:

The problem with the OP is the definition of skill is very narrow. A warrior often thinks there is no skill getting crushed from range. Range think there is no skill face rolling in close combat. Etc. Etc.

AI is not mindless at all. A turret engineer, a MM and a ranger require you really know what you are doing to do it well. They are also easy to counter.

Skill is such a relative term. I play an engineer with 3-4 kits. I wonder if I have to be more “skilled” than a player who only has 2 weapons and a couple utilities. (Play other classes so the answer is no). It is just a different type of skill mate.

If I could like this 1,000 times I would. 10,000 even.

Every time I died to a backstabbing thief, I would say that required no skill. They pop out of nowhere, boom boom and I’m dead. So then I gave one a try and failed miserably. After an hour of not getting my intended results, I had to start to admit that there might be more to this than I thought.

I watch other Engineers flounder with their turret builds; I have no problem killing people with them and never have, but I also have over 1,000 gameplay hours devoted entirely to my turret engineer only, using nothing else. Knowing when to drop them, how to drop them, and when to pop their overloads are a HUGE part of the equation.

When I see people sit there and say “it requires no skill” now, after I spent literally hundreds of hours perfecting my gameplay using the build that before was called completely worthless, is a little perturbing.

I know I shouldn’t care, but it’s somewhat annoying to be stuck in a weird place where you suck if you win, and you suck if you lose… all because 1 or 2 people on forums don’t know how to counter a build once it gets buffed.

Honestly- I can’t wait until they nerf turrets again. I got used to them when they were garbage, and I liked using an unnoticed build and winning with something that wasn’t supposed to be usable.

Maybe turret engi takes so little skill that even backstab thief seemed hard to you in comparison…

Touche…

AI builds definitely need more of a nerf. In particular turret engis. That is currently OP. Necro MM could use a slight reduction. Spirit rangers seem ok, although if they took a nerf, I wouldn’t complain.

In general, we need more skill play and less AI

The game needs more and more AI to attract more kids to it. This is just my opinion. I personally congratulate Anet development team for trying bring kids to this game by making it easier and easier, and for listening to their awsome wishes.

Acrisor.8097:

AI builds can not be removed from the game. Just think about it, if those will get removed, what will 12 years old kids be playing?! People tend to forget that most money in this game come from kids, not from adults, so they have to be entertained too, and they must have competent builds too.

So are you saying AI is unattractive to adults? That’s stereotyping I want spirit weapons to be viable because it is unique play style for guard but nope some are focus on bringing down AI builds that can work because everyone has to play boring average and normal power builds(most are boring based on my opinion).

Not sure who you are but a proper answer would be that AI cannot be removed because too many traits exist for it already,three classes have it as default,mechanism AKA mesmer and ranger, role AKA necro and diversity is partially encouraged and that ‘s why we don’t just have dmg to defense builds it expends to counter-skill(confusion,retaliation,auras),condition,cc,support,etc….

Nerf this I find it easy nerf that I find it not mature enough…