Guild Wars 2

Losing progress is not fun.

Failing to gain a pip is already a punishment.

Pip loss is a good thing, it means you can’t simply grind to legendary. The problem is too many pips needed and MMR making you lose if you go on a winning streak, making maybe even diamond unrealistic for top teams (since they’d be playing each other up there and are close enough in skill to take each others’ pips) with our current system.

How about 2 pips for a win and -1 for a loss? And in return you enable pip and tier losses in all divisions.

Pip loss is in essence a good idea: it gives some prestige (in theory) to reach the highest divisions.

The problem right now is that MMR is not taken into account at all when determining how many pips you win or lose. So, whether you’re good or bad, you have a 50/50 chance of winning your games (which is good), effectively preventing anyone (except top MMR players in a team) from reaching higher divisions.

A good fix (suggested by someone on the forums, and I think used in LoL) would be to lose and win pips partially based on your MMR. If you have a higher MMR than the average in your division, you will lose less pips from losing, and win more for winning, keeping the same match-making system, until you reach a division that contains players of your skill level.

I actualy agree because ppl from higher leagues are anyway matched up with lowers so whats even point to have leagues? System works basicly same as before now its just make ppl even more angry then before when they lose. Loosing progress isnt fun.

Rozbuska.5263:

I actualy agree because ppl from higher leagues are anyway matched up with lowers so whats even point to have leagues? System works basicly same as before now its just make ppl even more angry then before when they lose. Loosing progress isnt fun.

As of Sapphire 3 I have not seen a single Amber since leaving Emerald.

OP: Removing pips keeps people from pushing up divisions with a sub-50% win rate. The entire idea behind the system is that you move up divisions when you’re significantly better than your peers. If you’re only treading water, winning every other match, then you’re exactly where you should be. That’s how the system is supposed to work.

Sorry if it’s lower than what you expected.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rozbuska.5263:

I actualy agree because ppl from higher leagues are anyway matched up with lowers so whats even point to have leagues? System works basicly same as before now its just make ppl even more angry then before when they lose. Loosing progress isnt fun.

As of Sapphire 3 I have not seen a single Amber since leaving Emerald.

OP: Removing pips keeps people from pushing up divisions with a sub-50% win rate. The entire idea behind the system is that you move up divisions when you’re significantly better than your peers. If you’re only treading water, winning every other match, then you’re exactly where you should be. That’s how the system is supposed to work.

Sorry if it’s lower than what you expected.

I am in 4th tier of emerald atm and last game I played i got 2 amber and 1 ruby to my party for example.

Rozbuska.5263:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rozbuska.5263:

I actualy agree because ppl from higher leagues are anyway matched up with lowers so whats even point to have leagues? System works basicly same as before now its just make ppl even more angry then before when they lose. Loosing progress isnt fun.

As of Sapphire 3 I have not seen a single Amber since leaving Emerald.

OP: Removing pips keeps people from pushing up divisions with a sub-50% win rate. The entire idea behind the system is that you move up divisions when you’re significantly better than your peers. If you’re only treading water, winning every other match, then you’re exactly where you should be. That’s how the system is supposed to work.

Sorry if it’s lower than what you expected.

I am in 4th tier of emerald atm and last game I played i got 2 amber and 1 ruby to my party for example.

Were they a premade?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rozbuska.5263:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rozbuska.5263:

I actualy agree because ppl from higher leagues are anyway matched up with lowers so whats even point to have leagues? System works basicly same as before now its just make ppl even more angry then before when they lose. Loosing progress isnt fun.

As of Sapphire 3 I have not seen a single Amber since leaving Emerald.

OP: Removing pips keeps people from pushing up divisions with a sub-50% win rate. The entire idea behind the system is that you move up divisions when you’re significantly better than your peers. If you’re only treading water, winning every other match, then you’re exactly where you should be. That’s how the system is supposed to work.

Sorry if it’s lower than what you expected.

I am in 4th tier of emerald atm and last game I played i got 2 amber and 1 ruby to my party for example.

Were they a premade?

Nope

No, it is a good system. Otherwise its just like getting rank 80. You advance slow, but you will get there… If you get stuck in a division, not advancing at all, then it is there you belong.

This isnt made for soloQ. It is made for teams. If you join solo then you cant get in the highest division. Find a team to play with.

I for one do not expect to reach higher than 3. division if i play solo.

Unterkiefer.8372:

No, it is a good system. Otherwise its just like getting rank 80. You advance slow, but you will get there… If you get stuck in a division, not advancing at all, then it is there you belong.

This isnt made for soloQ. It is made for teams. If you join solo then you cant get in the highest division. Find a team to play with.

I for one do not expect to reach higher than 3. division if i play solo.

Soooo, what the Guild Challenger Leagues made for ? For teh lulz ?

No it is made for teams.

Unterkiefer.8372:

No it is made for teams.

So you have simple leagues which are made for teams and guild challenger leagues which are made for teams. Are you sane or Anet employee ? xD

Right now there is only on league. I agree, there should be a soloQ but there isnt. And that league is for teams. You can join solo, but you will never get as high. The question was if you should get punished for loosing, and the answer is yes. Otherwise it is not about skill but the amount of time spend playing.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rozbuska.5263:

I actualy agree because ppl from higher leagues are anyway matched up with lowers so whats even point to have leagues? System works basicly same as before now its just make ppl even more angry then before when they lose. Loosing progress isnt fun.

As of Sapphire 3 I have not seen a single Amber since leaving Emerald.

OP: Removing pips keeps people from pushing up divisions with a sub-50% win rate. The entire idea behind the system is that you move up divisions when you’re significantly better than your peers. If you’re only treading water, winning every other match, then you’re exactly where you should be. That’s how the system is supposed to work.

Sorry if it’s lower than what you expected.

isn’t mmr suppose to match you against equally skilled players at which point ideally everyone is going to be “treading water” no?

Naracion.6597:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rozbuska.5263:

I actualy agree because ppl from higher leagues are anyway matched up with lowers so whats even point to have leagues? System works basicly same as before now its just make ppl even more angry then before when they lose. Loosing progress isnt fun.

As of Sapphire 3 I have not seen a single Amber since leaving Emerald.

OP: Removing pips keeps people from pushing up divisions with a sub-50% win rate. The entire idea behind the system is that you move up divisions when you’re significantly better than your peers. If you’re only treading water, winning every other match, then you’re exactly where you should be. That’s how the system is supposed to work.

Sorry if it’s lower than what you expected.

isn’t mmr suppose to match you against equally skilled players at which point ideally everyone is going to be “treading water” no?

Yes, and the issue is that for a lot of people they’re landing 50% win rates in a division lower than they thought they’d place. So instead of accepting where they’re at and trying to work through it they’re demanding the system to inflate their ego and make it easier to place in the next division.

There’s two problems with that.

First, it’s really critical that players only advance to the next division when they’re clearly ready for that. There is no way to bring people from Ruby back down to Sapphire, so it’s important that leveling up from one division to the next becomes increasingly challenging.

Second, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being an Emerald- or Sapphire-level player, and you are not gated from getting your legendary back item by being an always-Emerald player. It’ll take you more seasons to get it than a Diamond or Legendary player, but you’ll still eventually get it.

Arcade.8901:

Unterkiefer.8372:

No it is made for teams.

So you have simple leagues which are made for teams and guild challenger leagues which are made for teams. Are you sane or Anet employee ? xD

Leagues are made for everyone. But obviously it’ll take most players longer than five days to reach the upper tiers. Some of the more hardcore PvPers I know are still in Amber because they just don’t have time to play right now.

These conclusions are so incredibly premature. Give it until the end of December and then evaluate.

Unterkiefer.8372:

If you get stuck in a division, not advancing at all, then it is there you belong.

And thats is actualy source of problem. I getting matched with ppl what lose so I lose so I am again matched with ppl who lose and lose again stuck in this bad joke loop.
Maybe I am bad but how can you think I got matched with equal ppl against me? I played 13 lost games in row and 7 or 8 times in row I met different full guild premades against me and matches ended like 20:500.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Arcade.8901:

Unterkiefer.8372:

No it is made for teams.

So you have simple leagues which are made for teams and guild challenger leagues which are made for teams. Are you sane or Anet employee ? xD

Leagues are made for everyone. But obviously it’ll take most players longer than five days to reach the upper tiers. Some of the more hardcore PvPers I know are still in Amber because they just don’t have time to play right now.

These conclusions are so incredibly premature. Give it until the end of December and then evaluate.

Yeah but you know, I couldn’t have that legendary in a day, and then I’m actually LOSING something when I lose a game. And then, to top it off, it takes higher than a week to reach TOP LEVEL in the new division.
HOW DARE ANET! HOW DARE THEY!
/S

It is flawed, of course. Mmr and Division working against each other is a HUUGE downside. Not having Squeue and Tqueue separated is an incredible problem. The loss of pip upon a loss isn’t.
Can we actually work on real, game-breaking bugs instead of… this…

Rozbuska.5263:

Unterkiefer.8372:

If you get stuck in a division, not advancing at all, then it is there you belong.

And thats is actualy source of problem. I getting matched with ppl what lose so I lose so I am again matched with ppl who lose and lose again stuck in this bad joke loop.
Maybe I am bad but how can you think I got matched with equal ppl against me? I played 13 lost games in row and 7 or 8 times in row I met different full guild premades against me and matches ended like 20:500.

What’s your division?

I’m actually tier 5 emerald. 53 win – 31 def. (soloQ for most, and duoQ&team for few games). It could have been better if I didn’t have many loses today… but I can see that I can progress.

I haven’t met full premade teams yet that made us lose hard when queued solo… Or not much of I remember.
I don’t know how you guys keep meeting full teams in soloQ :/

In League of legends, it’s the same thing. You can’t progress if you are doing 50%win rate; and you’ll tryhard until you are good enough… (but tryharding for a longtime can make you quit a game though), you can get stuck in elo hell, and it’s hell

For GW2, it’s way too early to do assumptions and ask for changes, it’s not even a week that it’s out… If we couldn’t lose pips or win too much easily, I wouldn’t really stick to the game ! No interest if everybody can be legendary in a month or less…… You are supposed to not be legendary at all if you are not worthy.

And you already got some “reward” system for your efforts… “you don’t lose a pip” or even win one if the MM thought u were going to lose (like easily) but if you made enough efforts (400pts I think, to win a pip, to not lose one, dunno), you are kindly rewarded !

The “you don’t lose a pip” I got when it was a hard game, helped me to pass my tier (4), I had 4 pips, didn’t lose one on a defeat, and then the next game I won so I passed the tier. I must admit, it saved me some time !

You are not going to kitten up the PvP are you? You guys can already have your legendaries in PvE easily. This league may give me some exclusive skins that I wouldn’t want a PvE guy to possess.
I can’t stand PvE … so no thanks, no help for league system.

Risingashes.8694:

Losing progress is not fun.

Failing to gain a pip is already a punishment.

Nonsense. You need pip/point loss to balance things. The pip loss system is perfect as is. Starter division (no less), next two (lock in at tiers, but loose between tiers) top two divisions loose tiers and pip… What’s not well designed is complete lack of a solo queue and putting solo queue (pug, partial pug) teams up against full premades and even guild teams. soloQ deserves their own queue which also means their own league progression.

I believe losing pips isnt a bad thing all the time. I would however remove pip loss for close games(lets say 350 – 500), at least for second and maybe third league. I just dont think that punishing someone for 450 – 500 game is fair, if the game ended that way, both teams proven that they are worthy. To suggestions, i came with special idea of fixing thief(and other weak classes): effectively lower your mmr when playing thief, so although you play weaker class than all others, you are better player than them.

Metalman.6345:

I believe losing pips isnt a bad thing all the time. I would however remove pip loss for close games(lets say 350 – 500), at least for second and maybe third league. I just dont think that punishing someone for 450 – 500 game is fair, if the game ended that way, both teams proven that they are worthy. To suggestions, i came with special idea of fixing thief(and other weak classes): effectively lower your mmr when playing thief, so although you play weaker class than all others, you are better player than them.

Makes no sense. Just don’t play war or thief if you are struggling? :x

If the score is not 350-500 or >400-500, it means that it wasn’t even close. If the MMR does well it’s job, you are supposed to be close matches everytime.

Im not playing either of them, but i dont want to get punished by playing with them.

Metalman.6345:

Im not playing either of them, but i dont want to get punished by playing with them.

Yeah I get what you mean… happened to me already ^^ (like 2 thieves … 0 bunker)

But if Anet does that, they would implicitly admit that those classes are doing really badly and that they are lazy enough to do balances. Atm, they are not admitting that Warrior is in bad spot, as well as for thief.

I used to be fine with losing pips…. But losing two or three at random times, sometimes to premades against all pugs is total nonsense. I should be getting three to five pips for some wins if they take that many away. It’s a garbage system implemented like crap.

Losing pips don’t bother me. Losing pips when the game tosses me into the lion’s den against a pre-made team with players 2 divisions above me bother me greatly. There are legitimate times when a team of pugs should not lose pips when fighting pro league pre-mades with players 1-2 divisions above them.

Sorel.4870:

Pip loss is in essence a good idea: it gives some prestige (in theory) to reach the highest divisions.

The problem right now is that MMR is not taken into account at all when determining how many pips you win or lose. So, whether you’re good or bad, you have a 50/50 chance of winning your games (which is good), effectively preventing anyone (except top MMR players in a team) from reaching higher divisions.

A good fix (suggested by someone on the forums, and I think used in LoL) would be to lose and win pips partially based on your MMR. If you have a higher MMR than the average in your division, you will lose less pips from losing, and win more for winning, keeping the same match-making system, until you reach a division that contains players of your skill level.

Your mmr does affect how many pips you gain or lose. You also won’t be only winning 50% of your matches if you’re good. The only reason it was like that at first is because everyone started in the same division. Now that people are getting more spread out, in general, the worse players are still lower down while the better players have climbed. I have about an 80% winrate ever since the leagues were introduced ankitten ow in mid-sapphire.

The system is fine, it just sucks that they didn’t do placement matches and made everyone start at the same spot.

RedDeadFred.1256:

Sorel.4870:

Pip loss is in essence a good idea: it gives some prestige (in theory) to reach the highest divisions.

The problem right now is that MMR is not taken into account at all when determining how many pips you win or lose. So, whether you’re good or bad, you have a 50/50 chance of winning your games (which is good), effectively preventing anyone (except top MMR players in a team) from reaching higher divisions.

A good fix (suggested by someone on the forums, and I think used in LoL) would be to lose and win pips partially based on your MMR. If you have a higher MMR than the average in your division, you will lose less pips from losing, and win more for winning, keeping the same match-making system, until you reach a division that contains players of your skill level.

Your mmr does affect how many pips you gain or lose. You also won’t be only winning 50% of your matches if you’re good. The only reason it was like that at first is because everyone started in the same division. Now that people are getting more spread out, in general, the worse players are still lower down while the better players have climbed. I have about an 80% winrate ever since the leagues were introduced ankitten ow in mid-sapphire.

The system is fine, it just sucks that they didn’t do placement matches and made everyone start at the same spot.

I do hope you’re right. Last time I played Helseth was still stuck in emerald division with me, but maybe it’s gonna get easier now. Basically, I must just wait till the other players have faced this frustrating system or a while before raising.

Also, what happens if I play with less experienced guild mates? I would then have get even games in lower division, and end up in the same division as my team (around our average MMR).

MMR or Pip / league system ,. both together in that way is just so stupid…

What’s the use of MMR ? Right, to get even fights.
So if you are supposed to win 50% of your games ( MMR is working , right ) then you will NEVER get up.

Why should you get more points for winning than for your lose games, IF you are supposed to fight opponents on the same level ??

just lost 609:89 and got -1 !
How is that even possible !!??!?! A match that ends with that score and you get a -1 !!!

kittenANET !

There are 26 tiers from amber 0 to legend 1. So unless you can play pvp for many hours every day it is impossible to get into legendary division even if you are the best player in the game under the current system.

The 5 individual MMRs for a team are combined to determine the team MMR. This is what is used when predicting the outcome of a match. Groups who que together get a slight virtual boost in their team MMR due to being in groups.

MMR accounts for approximately 50% of your matchmaking. The remaining half is calculated by your current division. The two halves are added and that is your TEAM RATING for the match.

This team rating is compared against the other team rating and the system creates a prediction of who will win and what the margin will be. Similarly to an Over Under Line prediction you see on sports. Depending on these values and the match outcome, you have the ability to gain/lose (-3:+3) pips.

I will use an example to help illustrate the points.

Red team: 1390 MMR average
5 individual players
a-1300
b-1350
c-1500
d-1400
e-1400

Blue team: 1330MMR average + team que inflation (15% for example)
Blue MMR is 1529
5 man que
a-1300
b-1500
c-1300
d-1350
e-1400

Based on the system, the game expects the Blue team to win. And because the MMR is higher by almost 200 points, it expects a 500-200 score. (Again just using numbers)

Now for scenarios:

Blue Wins, red team goes above 200 quota- each team will go 1 pip change
Blue Wins, red does not hit 200 quota- each team could go 2 pip change
Blue Wins, red does not do much of anything- each team could go 3 pip change

Red Wins in a close one 500-450. This is much different than expected, each team could go 2 pip change.
Etc for all red wins since the spread was so not in its favor.

This is how the system works. This is how the system should work.
You should lose pips else you will forever climb up the ladder over time, leading you to tougher matches than you should get. All matches should be relatively close in match making, as teams should really only go +-1 pip per game. When you find yourself going better than +-1, it means the match up was outclassed.
The point is to always face an equal opponent so as to make the most exciting matchup for the player. .

In the current system, everyone should climb out of amber and emerald, just at different rates, due to the tier barrier saving you. Average player should end up in sapphire over time. Players better than that should go higher up. Time gating the season with such a short league period you may not reach your actual final level in time.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rozbuska.5263:

I actualy agree because ppl from higher leagues are anyway matched up with lowers so whats even point to have leagues? System works basicly same as before now its just make ppl even more angry then before when they lose. Loosing progress isnt fun.

As of Sapphire 3 I have not seen a single Amber since leaving Emerald.

OP: Removing pips keeps people from pushing up divisions with a sub-50% win rate. The entire idea behind the system is that you move up divisions when you’re significantly better than your peers. If you’re only treading water, winning every other match, then you’re exactly where you should be. That’s how the system is supposed to work.

Sorry if it’s lower than what you expected.

People deliberately tanking Mr ruins the concept.

Mmr is designed to give you 50% win/loss ratio assuming everyone is actually trying their level best to win every match.

To string wins together one essentially has to tank Mmr to progress. Or improve significantly.
So a player who should be in ruby from the beginning May get stuck in emerald due to matchmaking and not being able to improve significantly enough to string together so many wins before they start a losing streak due to to higher Mmr.

I think we should be able to lose an entire division.

Unterkiefer.8372:

No, it is a good system. Otherwise its just like getting rank 80. You advance slow, but you will get there… If you get stuck in a division, not advancing at all, then it is there you belong.

This isnt made for soloQ. It is made for teams. If you join solo then you cant get in the highest division. Find a team to play with.

I for one do not expect to reach higher than 3. division if i play solo.

Win a pip lose a pip. it absolutely punishes any soloQ. I’ve basically advanced nowhere in 3 days upon reaching emerald. Crap system is crap. Trying to defend it by saying get a team is a joke.