Guild Wars 2

Don’t get me wrong i love the map. its prolly my favorite from a design PoV. However it is soooooo incredibly unbalanced. With the release of the leaderboards i think this map needs to take a short break off the rotation until you can properly balance the orb.

I’m just a newbie, could you (or someone) be kind enough to explain how the orb works? I find there’s a lot about the maps that isn’t immediately clear or a little hard to understand (like that thing that suddenly caps all the points in the temple map).

Why does everyone hate on this map? It is one of the best maps to date! There’s more then just sitting on a point for a bunker now

While removing SW from rotation can we also remove temple, khylo and the rest since they are wayyyyyyyy outdated by this time. SW is by far the best map in spvp and there are more ways to win than just focusing on the orb, personally never bother with the orb myself and tend to do well on that map even with hotjoins but it will be balanced soon apparently. I would do things to get new maps…. serious things.

One thing I know about this map. A well played engie can influence the outcome of a match and a well played Staff Ele can do the same.

I know this won’t be everyone’s experience … but I just got out of a game, and the enemy team was a pug made up of 4 D/D bunker ele’s and a necro. Long story short, we never stood a chance. Why has Ride the Lightening with the orb not been adjusted yet? It’s a ridiculous advantage on Spirit Watch, especially when there’s more than one source of it.

this is what i think needs to be done:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/How-to-balance-Ride-the-Lightning/first#post1802683

Yes, I will not play tournament matchs while spirit watch is the map. Please remove it from tournament matches.

Let me get this right.

You want to remove the only map that is not a complete no brainer designed for zerger teams from competitive pvp.

In other words the only map that requires a little bit of strategy and tactics should not be allowed to influence the ranking of players?

I do agree how ever that elementals using ride the lightning should drop the orb, just as other classes do when they try to make short cuts.

Thief stealthing for instance.
Thief shadow stepping
Mesmer portaling
Mesmer stealthing
Mesmer teleporting

This ability does give elementals an unfair advantage and need to be addressed.

Nooo! I love this map. The secondary objective is probably my favorite out of all the maps.

Jeskelech.4152:

Let me get this right.

You want to remove the only map that is not a complete no brainer designed for zerger teams from competitive pvp.

In other words the only map that requires a little bit of strategy and tactics should not be allowed to influence the ranking of players?

I do agree how ever that elementals using ride the lightning should drop the orb, just as other classes do when they try to make short cuts.

Thief stealthing for instance.
Thief shadow stepping
Mesmer portaling
Mesmer stealthing
Mesmer teleporting

This ability does give elementals an unfair advantage and need to be addressed.

its not balanced due to orb because of how some ability’s work with orb that is basically a free orb capture this causes cheesy comps of people stacking certain builds and classes just to win

the orb needs to disable utility’s and give you a set of ability’s when holding the orb
putting importance on your team defending the orb holder

but Anet does not want to do that they say it takes the player out of there class
and i say it already does that when the map alone pigeon holes you into certain comps and builds

so they need to nerf ability’s giving orb holder’s a greater advantage or change the orb altogether

Any map that rewards having a certain class to a high degree is worthless for tpvp. I know its basically all maps since only certain classes and builds are really optimal in tpvp but really if you don’t have an ele on this map and the other side has a good one you are at a huge disadvtange. Thats total failure for a game that tries to tell you to play what you want basically all classes can do most things. Thats the most irritating things about Build Bores 2 is the farce of extremely customisable classes with tons of viable builds and options. Yeah right!

Ele, lol, meet rangers with 100 jumps, when you don’t have even swiftness. You know, I love playing engi and necro, but they both kitten, when ranger takes the orb.

I agree some real mobility issues here.

Dirame.8521:

One thing I know about this map. A well played engie can influence the outcome of a match and a well played Staff Ele can do the same.

Can’t agree more. Elixir X especially shines, since Tornado can just throw orb-carrier and his buddies from the cliff and Rampage allows you to charge (skill 3) while carrying the orb to quickly cover some distance while having stability. Well-placed mine or BOB, a sneaky Magnet…oh, the fun!

No please no i love this map it’s my fav

i only play solo queue tho

shimmerless.4560:

I’m just a newbie, could you (or someone) be kind enough to explain how the orb works? I find there’s a lot about the maps that isn’t immediately clear or a little hard to understand (like that thing that suddenly caps all the points in the temple map).

- The orb spawns at the beginning of the game, and shortly after each time it’s capped at a point.
- Channel the orb to pick it up, however this channel can be interrupted by damage. Any kind of blocks that are used while channeling will help you channel the orb.
- When you get the orb you will be a lot slower
- When you have the orb, you have some options:

1. Take the orb to a point that you control for 30 points
2. Take the orb to a point that the enemy controls for 15 points and an instant neutralize (the point is no longer controlled by either side)
3. Take the orb to a neutralized point for 15 points. Any progress made on the point stays. So for example, if you take the orb to an enemy point that is 1 second away from being capped it will still be 1 second away from being capped.

- If you use any teleport abilities (portal, shadowstep, blink, etc.) with the orb, you will drop the orb in the spot you were at before you teleported (and anyone can pick it up).
- If you go down with the orb then anyone can pick up the orb in the spot that you are down.
- You cannot gain swiftness while controlling the orb. However, you can spam your dodges for faster movement with the orb.
- You can use stability, in-vulnerabilities, non-teleporting movement abilities (ride the lightning, leaps, etc.) to help you escort the orb to a point.
- If the orb is on the ground for too long I think it resets after some time, but I’ve only seen this happen once.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all, thanks for the feedback! Instead of removing Spirit Watch from the rotation, I’d like to point you towards some changes that Tyler has made that should address some of the issues you have brought up. This thread is located in the suggestions section: Spirit Watch – How to improve Orb. [sPvP].

While the idea of swapping the orb carriers skills is an interesting one, like you said, we feel it’s best that the individual player be able to use their skills. Changing an entire skill bar can be jarring for the player, especially in PvP, so we try to avoid it when we can.

Beyond that, we welcome any suggestions for additional changes!

Allie.
If the bridges still won’t let you warp to a guy 300 range right in front of ya and even worse, many times.
Just keep the map out till you fix it.
For my sanity.
Kthx.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all, thanks for the feedback! Instead of removing Spirit Watch from the rotation, I’d like to point you towards some changes that Tyler has made that should address some of the issues you have brought up. This thread is located in the suggestions section: Spirit Watch – How to improve Orb. [sPvP].

While the idea of swapping the orb carriers skills is an interesting one, like you said, we feel it’s best that the individual player be able to use their skills. Changing an entire skill bar can be jarring for the player, especially in PvP, so we try to avoid it when we can.

Beyond that, we welcome any suggestions for additional changes!

His changes are a good start. But RtL isn’t the only issue. Orb Mobility is waaay to high for some classes. Ele’s take all the head (as usual) but classes like Rangers can run the orb all day and they are practically unkillable. They have 2 many dodges (which aren’t effected by the “slow effect”) They have 2 many leaps. They have AoE immobs, and their pet can still dps/cc people while running. Also the communing situation is really really gimmicky too. Having a guard pop Ring of warding into Shield of absorb. While any1 else communes is practically impossible to deal with. Your only option is Stability at that point, which only a few classes have access to. Plus then the guard can pop Aegis or many other of his AoE blocks to guarantee the orb gets picked up.
This map is great from a design point. But no other map pigeonholds you into certain professions more then this map. And that is a terrible terrible thing.

Your almost forced to bring an Ele/BM ranger for running
a Trap ranger/necro for unblockable marks/traps as they are the only way to interrupt the cheese.
a Guard for setting up the orb pick ups
Then off course you still need your bunkers I.E another guard and maybe an engie to round it all off.

Can’t tell you how many times i’ve seen exactly that party comp. Its nearly impossible to beat w/o the same exact team. Imo that’s quite imbalanced.

If you want some suggestions they best one is to still give the orb a unique skill set but since u guys seem unwilling to do so:

Maybe when u pick up the orb you lose access to your utilities. This would greatly hinder survivability and make carrying the orb much harder and actually require a team effort.

Maybe when you pick up the orb your stunned (unbreakable) for 2 seconds. This would give the opponent team sufficient time to get to the orb in an attempt to stop them. as it currently takes at least 3-4 people to drop the carrier in its current state.

Maybe you make carriers immune to boons to emphasize clutch KD’s/ KB’s off of bridges. Although this would prolly make a roaming Guard a must thanks to all their wards.

Maybe the orb gives u a debuff much like the hammer in fractals. Every 15 seconds you get stunned for 2 seconds while holding it.

Idk just spit balling here.

Changes to orb Mechanics and what classes can do with holding the orb are a good idea, removing the whole map is just out right idiotic.

There’s a lack of maps already, lets not diminish it further.

I’m not sure if this map is fixable from a competitive standpoint. Even with fixes to the orb, the way the map is laid out promotes snowballing far, far more than any other map in the entire game.

Killing people and pushing continual fights is a great strat on a lot of maps, but when you add in the fact that the three points are incredibly close together for classes with teleports AND the fact that a capped orb = 1 full minute of holding a point it becomes too much.

Simply put, it’s a bad, bad competitive map. When a team loses, they lose B A D. Like, 500-200 bad.

I would prefer to see the map remain in the rotation even with the bugs. Its my favorite along with Temple. Just fix the annoying bridges and orb imbalances

Just remove the rotation and give the people the option to chose the maps they want to play in tournament.

Edit: And I agree about the engineer and this map. Only played engineer in sPvP so far and I’m a noob and in the few random non-tournament matches I played all the people zerged at the spawn location of the orb and only 1 time the enemy got it and I got it 2 times but I did not use other stuff mentioned her. Just used my rifle and the jump shot and knockback shot to get a bit speed which helped especially if 1 other team member was nearby to help a bit lol. Fun to use the rifle 4 to knockback yourself the last few inches needed.

Actually I really appreciate this map (guess I’m the only one here). It’s not so focused on the conquest overall. The only “little” problem in my point of view, is RTL. It’s not applied to the movement reduction so far (you guys allrdy mentioned you will add this). The problem I have in general is that RTL is not even considered by conditions like cripple and chill. If this would be the case you wouldn’t see so much eles on this map (even if a guardian is a better orb-runner).

This map is actually very frustrating. At least one HGH engenieer who spamms grenades from one of the colums all day long .Then 2 Eles (preferably with arcane shield) which either roaming or capturing the Orb. Maybe a guard with focus which can also capture the Orb fast and a Thief/Mesmer and here you have your META build for spirit watch. Its like the META build on the other maps and you cant do a kitten actually. They run into the first fight with 25 mightstacks up thanks to eles and guard. If you focus on Orb 3 of these guys will just block your damage away in the right Moment. If you focus on point they also have an advantage due to the combination of good burst and heal.
Its not even funny anymore…And its not a L2 kitten ue. Especially the engenieers are ridicoulus (sorry bro’s but 25 might stacks + the conditions they apply that fast that not even a cantrip ele can remove them [who is best condition remover in game] is way over the top).

HPLT.7132:

This map is actually very frustrating. At least one HGH engenieer who spamms grenades from one of the colums all day long .Then 2 Eles (preferably with arcane shield) which either roaming or capturing the Orb. Maybe a guard with focus which can also capture the Orb fast and a Thief/Mesmer and here you have your META build for spirit watch. Its like the META build on the other maps and you cant do a kitten actually. They run into the first fight with 25 mightstacks up thanks to eles and guard. If you focus on Orb 3 of these guys will just block your damage away in the right Moment. If you focus on point they also have an advantage due to the combination of good burst and heal.
Its not even funny anymore…And its not a L2 kitten ue. Especially the engenieers are ridicoulus (sorry bro’s but 25 might stacks + the conditions they apply that fast that not even a cantrip ele can remove them [who is best condition remover in game] is way over the top).

It’s definitely a Learn-to-make-tactics issue. Even against an engineer it’s easy to cap the orb though. And there is no meta setup. You not mentioned ranger, which is definitely one of the strongest on the map.
BTW: why you need 25 mights stacks to cap the orb? you just split up and run to the nodes and one guy of your team is capping. There is not a huge teamfight so might is not really important.

tapsumbong.6470:

The engineer hate is really coming strong this week. More nerfs inc for us, but maybe we’ll get another awesome buff to turrets to make up for it!! Woohoo!

Definitely they need a nerf. We need to take their only viable build away to make it as usefull as the warrior. Or mabye we will see banner-warriors and turrent-engis in the near future. Can’t wait for it…

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

It’s definitely a Learn-to-make-tactics issue. Even against an engineer it’s easy to cap the orb though. And there is no meta setup. You not mentioned ranger, which is definitely one of the strongest on the map.
BTW: why you need 25 mights stacks to cap the orb? you just split up and run to the nodes and one guy of your team is capping. There is not a huge teamfight so might is not really important.

A complete team comb with 25 stacks of might just kills everything, when they play properly. Rangers are good orb runners but due to the hast nerf they capturing the orb or even defend it becomes much harder. I main ranger and recognised it yesterday several times. A good orb defender just stays at rang, watches the pets and outplays a ranger quite easily. As a said HGH engenieers can do that pretty well. I mean it doesnt matter if guard, ele or ranger captures the orb. In 80% (especially when he gets team support) you cant stop him and one should focus on nodes. I prefer other classes than rangers on this map because orb runner spec doesnt give sufficient team support.

And of course send an ele with already 1 additional block to the first orb + arcane shield and its almost a freecap.

Double the cap time on picking up orb. As it sancturary guardians etc can sometimes pick it up without being able to be stopped even if u are there.

Turial.1293:

While removing SW from rotation can we also remove temple, khylo and the rest since they are wayyyyyyyy outdated by this time. SW is by far the best map in spvp and there are more ways to win than just focusing on the orb, personally never bother with the orb myself and tend to do well on that map even with hotjoins but it will be balanced soon apparently. I would do things to get new maps…. serious things.

I love temple, just because it has the lowest amount of bullkitten. IMO they just need to get rid of the gimmicky stuff like mobs and catapults. I mean… mobs in PVP? Seriously? Get rid of the stupid sharks, lords, forest creatures and all that crap.

Spirit Watch is a step in the right direction, even though I really don’t enjoy playing the map as it is. I do think you shouldn’t be able to cap the orb at all unless your team controls the point. That would encourage point control and coordination and dampen the RTL problem a bit.

It causes much frustration because the secondary (the orb) is evenly important as holding the nodes. The map leans to situational tactics more than other maps. You just can’t plan that much, and have to react more on the go. It’s a fun map when you’re with your team on voip, but it’s the most frustrating map while solo-queuing.

I love this map, even in Solo Q, because running the Orb is entertaining. Also, I don’t really see how the map that requires the most different tactics, locks people into certain builds. If anything, the meta that came before it has already done this and Spirit Watch simply allowed for different ones to be useful. SW simply requires different tactics than the other maps. Tactics that I gladly love to play with. The fact that someone even mentioned an Engineer using Elixir X tells me that this map is doing something really great.

HPLT.7132:

This map is actually very frustrating. At least one HGH engenieer who spamms grenades from one of the colums all day long .Then 2 Eles (preferably with arcane shield) which either roaming or capturing the Orb. Maybe a guard with focus which can also capture the Orb fast and a Thief/Mesmer and here you have your META build for spirit watch. Its like the META build on the other maps and you cant do a kitten actually. They run into the first fight with 25 mightstacks up thanks to eles and guard. If you focus on Orb 3 of these guys will just block your damage away in the right Moment. If you focus on point they also have an advantage due to the combination of good burst and heal.
Its not even funny anymore…And its not a L2 kitten ue. Especially the engenieers are ridicoulus (sorry bro’s but 25 might stacks + the conditions they apply that fast that not even a cantrip ele can remove them [who is best condition remover in game] is way over the top).

It’s funny because I think, right now, the best condition removers in the game are the Elixir Engineers themselves. Cleansing Formula 409, 4 Elixirs with one of them being Elixir C. Not only do you cleanse them as they come, but you reap benefits as you do it. Like MIGHT STACKS, RANDOM BOONS, QUICKNESS, PROTECTION or whatever combination of Elixir effects they chose to take.

But in truth, it’s not that Engineers need a nerf. The hurt is simply being applied more effectively since the Kit Refinement change lowered the number of builds that most Engineers choose to bring into PvP. What really needs to happen is a buff to Boon Removal. Stuns and Stability are all very important to PvP in general. HGH throws a middle finger to both. Boon Removal is a big kick in the face to that, as well as the Stability that everyone cries about on bunkers or orb runners in SW. However, no one runs it except for some Necros and, of course, other Engineers (lol we only do everything). If that were improved, there would be more effective ways to counter those things.

Of course, if everyone refuses to budge, the meta will simply remain the same.

Nilix.2170:

I love this map, even in Solo Q, because running the Orb is entertaining. Also, I don’t really see how the map that requires the most different tactics, locks people into certain builds. If anything, the meta that came before it has already done this and Spirit Watch simply allowed for different ones to be useful. SW simply requires different tactics than the other maps. Tactics that I gladly love to play with. The fact that someone even mentioned an Engineer using Elixir X tells me that this map is doing something really great.

HPLT.7132:

This map is actually very frustrating. At least one HGH engenieer who spamms grenades from one of the colums all day long .Then 2 Eles (preferably with arcane shield) which either roaming or capturing the Orb. Maybe a guard with focus which can also capture the Orb fast and a Thief/Mesmer and here you have your META build for spirit watch. Its like the META build on the other maps and you cant do a kitten actually. They run into the first fight with 25 mightstacks up thanks to eles and guard. If you focus on Orb 3 of these guys will just block your damage away in the right Moment. If you focus on point they also have an advantage due to the combination of good burst and heal.
Its not even funny anymore…And its not a L2 kitten ue. Especially the engenieers are ridicoulus (sorry bro’s but 25 might stacks + the conditions they apply that fast that not even a cantrip ele can remove them [who is best condition remover in game] is way over the top).

It’s funny because I think, right now, the best condition removers in the game are the Elixir Engineers themselves. Cleansing Formula 409, 4 Elixirs with one of them being Elixir C. Not only do you cleanse them as they come, but you reap benefits as you do it. Like MIGHT STACKS, RANDOM BOONS, QUICKNESS, PROTECTION or whatever combination of Elixir effects they chose to take.

But in truth, it’s not that Engineers need a nerf. The hurt is simply being applied more effectively since the Kit Refinement change lowered the number of builds that most Engineers choose to bring into PvP. What really needs to happen is a buff to Boon Removal. Stuns and Stability are all very important to PvP in general. HGH throws a middle finger to both. Boon Removal is a big kick in the face to that, as well as the Stability that everyone cries about on bunkers or orb runners in SW. However, no one runs it except for some Necros and, of course, other Engineers (lol we only do everything). If that were improved, there would be more effective ways to counter those things.

Of course, if everyone refuses to budge, the meta will simply remain the same.

Sorry friend, but saying engis are good condi cleansers is not true in the slightest. Our condi cleanses are not aoe in any sense and we shouldn’t be in a position to give AoE cleanses to nearby teammates unlike guardians and eles.

At best our self-cleanses are good enough to beat condi classes if used carefully. At worst our team cleanses are nill.

JohnnyZero.5619:

I know this won’t be everyone’s experience … but I just got out of a game, and the enemy team was a pug made up of 4 D/D bunker ele’s and a necro. Long story short, we never stood a chance. Why has Ride the Lightening with the orb not been adjusted yet? It’s a ridiculous advantage on Spirit Watch, especially when there’s more than one source of it.

That is the only real problem. I can’t teleport with the orb, but anyone with leap type abilities can use them to gain a major advantage. A good ranger or ele is ridiculous at carrying orbs.

I agree with most of what Ostricheggs has said about this maps competitive potential.

I have some ideas I would like to throw out that may change the current meta for the better on this map and I am curious to what the community thinks about them.

1. When you take the orb to a point you have to arm it some how. This will promote more team oriented play as well as slow down the snowball effect.

2. Instead of just continually spawning the orb, make the orb have to be summoned by a player to appear. This way the orb becomes a skill play mechanic for a team rather than a forced one.

butch.8136:

It causes much frustration because the secondary (the orb) is evenly important as holding the nodes. The map leans to situational tactics more than other maps. You just can’t plan that much, and have to react more on the go. It’s a fun map when you’re with your team on voip, but it’s the most frustrating map while solo-queuing.

I love playing this map in solo-queuing exactly because of the extra dynamic that the orb brings into the map. It adds more diversity, more opportunities to improvize, and relies more on movement and less on staying at a point forever.

And I love the map even though I don’t like carrying the orb. Yes, even with a RTL elementalist, I much prefer to move around the points and capture them, while taking attention to orb carriers and seeying where they go (and trying to neutralize them).