Remove reward track progress for premades
→ Separate ques.
→ Give better rewards in premade que.
→ …
→Profit.
You can’t pretend that a organized group of frienda that play spvp all together will be punished for that.
It’s called Team Structured Player Versus Player for a reason, don’t you think?
If you want to play only with “casuals” go in hot join.
PvP (spvp and www) is the only reason why someone can chose to enter into a guild, in this game, because the pve is so easy that you don’t need a guild to do dungeons (at last only for very high levels of fractal) and in a sPvP guild you can find players every day to make a team or more and fight in spvp.
It’s not a question of premade that farm pugs because they enter in spvp and they can find another organized team and not a casual team, they can’t chose who they will fight in the match.
Do you want to punish a team because you’re not in a team? That makes no sense!
You can pretend a separate ques, but you can’t prentend vengeance only because you play a team-related pvp without a team.
-> Separate ques.
-> Give better rewards in premade que.
-> …
->Profit.
I don’t mind separate queues. But there is no reason whatsoever to give higher rewards for premades. If there are higher rewards for team q, then I will solo in team q – just like everyone did last time.
Premades are no more deserving of higher rewards just because they choose to form a team.
-> Separate ques.
-> Give better rewards in premade que.
-> …
->Profit.I don’t mind separate queues. But there is no reason whatsoever to give higher rewards for premades. If there are higher rewards for team q, then I will solo in team q – just like everyone did last time.
Premades are no more deserving of higher rewards just because they choose to form a team.
If there would be better rewards in team q, I guess you couldn’t que as solo ;-)
And obviously, premades deserve better rewards, because fighting organized teams is much more difficult than fightning soloQ players.
-> Separate ques.
-> Give better rewards in premade que.
-> …
->Profit.I don’t mind separate queues. But there is no reason whatsoever to give higher rewards for premades. If there are higher rewards for team q, then I will solo in team q – just like everyone did last time.
Premades are no more deserving of higher rewards just because they choose to form a team.
If there would be better rewards in team q, I guess you couldn’t que as solo ;-)
And obviously, premades deserve better rewards, because fighting organized teams is much more difficult than fightning soloQ players.
Last time Anet had a team q / solo q split, soloers could enter team q as well. And most people did simply because the rewards were better. Soloers are necessary to fill up the gaps. If individuals were not allowed, q times would soar to very very long heights.
Everyone I’ve spoken to so far likes to say that GW2 is social, and that they enjoy playing in teams, and it’s so satisfying, and that rewards are not important, blah blah blah. So why are rewards so suddenly crucial for teams?
If queuing up is so difficult…then don’t! No one is asking people to team up and play. The fact is that teaming up improves chances of victory. And if you have increased chances of victory, then you win more often. If you win more often, you automatically get nicer rewards. That’s how it works.
Queuing up is simply a choice. Just because it takes effort does not mean Anet needs to reward that. Playing without any skill utilities 6-10 is also very difficult. But just because it’s tough, doesn’t mean that Anet specially gives higher rewards for those who disable their utility bar!
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.
And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.
Just bring back the old teamq/soloq system.
Svanir Appreciation Society [SAS]
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.
And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.
People team up for different reasons. Not all of them do it for their team composition or to get ressed more or anything like that. In fact I bet the number 1 reason people queue up together is because they know each other and just want to enjoy a social game together with people they know instead of strangers.
someone is jealous. how about you make some friends and play the team game as a team instead of complaing that playing a team game solo is worse. it’s incredibly easy to find people to party with, I don’t think I’ve been forced to queue alone in months.
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
So punish people with friends?
OP seems to assume that every partied up team is a premade. That barely happens btw.
Most of the time, the partied up team are just that: friends who happen to be in the party together. Maybe 2 or 3 people at the time but barely ever full team. There’s nothing more special in their builds other than the fact that maybe more experienced people are in the same team.
You are mad because your PUG team lost. That doesn’t mean it is because the other team is “premade”.
Most people who pair up are just playing with their friend, and that’s cool. I almost never have problems with pairs or trios queuing together, unless they’re doing some bullkitten troll thing and running three thieves or three burn guardians. However, there are definitely people who are farming pugs in unranked- more respectable than hotjoin and less resistance than ranked.
So while I don’t agree that pre-mades should get fewer rewards (nor should they get more if there is a separate team queue- a team playing against a team is on equal footing (more or less) just like a pug is on equal footing with a pug), I do think there should be separate queues so solo players can have a more active choice in becoming farm fodder or not.
Also- most people who choose to solo queue do so for reasons that have nothing to do with a lack of friends in the game. Speaking only for myself, I have too many interruptions to stake out a large block of time for any activity. I simply cannot commit to anything beyond the game I’m currently queued for, and would thus make a very frustrating teammate.
Wait, why would you punish players for the lack of working matchmaking?
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.
And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.
People team up for different reasons. Not all of them do it for their team composition or to get ressed more or anything like that. In fact I bet the number 1 reason people queue up together is because they know each other and just want to enjoy a social game together with people they know instead of strangers.
There you go. You’re saying that people q up because they enjoy it. So why do they need to get extra rewards for something they will do anyway?
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.
And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.
People team up for different reasons. Not all of them do it for their team composition or to get ressed more or anything like that. In fact I bet the number 1 reason people queue up together is because they know each other and just want to enjoy a social game together with people they know instead of strangers.
There you go. You’re saying that people q up because they enjoy it. So why do they need to get extra rewards for something they will do anyway?
they don’t get extra rewards. winning or losing while in a party gives you the same rewards as if you were not in one.
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.
And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.
People team up for different reasons. Not all of them do it for their team composition or to get ressed more or anything like that. In fact I bet the number 1 reason people queue up together is because they know each other and just want to enjoy a social game together with people they know instead of strangers.
There you go. You’re saying that people q up because they enjoy it. So why do they need to get extra rewards for something they will do anyway?
they don’t get extra rewards. winning or losing while in a party gives you the same rewards as if you were not in one.
If you read the entire comment thread, the person I’m responding to is saying that if a team/solo Q is implemented, they should get higher rewards than the solo q.
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.
And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.
People team up for different reasons. Not all of them do it for their team composition or to get ressed more or anything like that. In fact I bet the number 1 reason people queue up together is because they know each other and just want to enjoy a social game together with people they know instead of strangers.
There you go. You’re saying that people q up because they enjoy it. So why do they need to get extra rewards for something they will do anyway?
they don’t get extra rewards. winning or losing while in a party gives you the same rewards as if you were not in one.
If you read the entire comment thread, the person I’m responding to is saying that if a team/solo Q is implemented, they should get higher rewards than the solo q.
I can’t see where Shadow suggests this in the thread, but other posters do and apologise for the misunderstanding.
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
Asking for removing rewards for premades in a team game. Sigh.
Or they could fix matchmaking and/or create seperate queues.
I just change to my other account when I encounter a premade, it still amazes me that even though solo players are already at a disadvantage you are apparently punishing them if they leave or go afk.
The worst problem of PvP are not premades. The worst problem are all these AFKers and leavers. Sadly there is no punishment for them. So please anet enable Dishonorable.
That is a terrible idea, and it would kill the already small pvp community.
People need to stop telling themselves that they are losing because of pre-mades…
You are losing because:
1. Bad matchmaking
2. Bad match up
3. Balance/new patch…
4. You suck.
P.s, I only ever play solo.
Space Marine Z [GLTY]
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
Remove another incentive to team up?
-.-
We need more incentives to team up, not less. Pvp is already one big solo(casual)fest because of the lacking infrastructure, etc.
Bring back: ‘Gamer’ title + MAT’s!
Throw out: Hotjoin!
Remove another incentive to team up?
-.-
We need more incentives to team up, not less. Pvp is already one big solo(casual)fest because of the lacking infrastructure, etc.
No, we need both solo players and team players have the same fair terms in pvp, not promoting one or another.
playing against premades can be actually fun when u see it’s a full team premade , most likely on TS too…and they actually lose lol.
playing against premades can be actually fun when u see it’s a full team premade , most likely on TS too…and they actually lose lol.
Totes.
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.
And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.
People team up for different reasons. Not all of them do it for their team composition or to get ressed more or anything like that. In fact I bet the number 1 reason people queue up together is because they know each other and just want to enjoy a social game together with people they know instead of strangers.
There you go. You’re saying that people q up because they enjoy it. So why do they need to get extra rewards for something they will do anyway?
they don’t get extra rewards. winning or losing while in a party gives you the same rewards as if you were not in one.
I’m not saying that they should get more rewards or less rewards. I’m simply saying that not all premades are these strategic alliances. Over 50% of them are just bad to mediocre players (I fall in that category) that just want to queue up with their friends. My guild has a mumble server and I am almost never on it when I queue up with guildies. I’m simply saying that being in a party doesn’t really improve your odds of winning. Not enough to really make a big difference. Being in a party of people who practice together and set their builds and team composition to increase their odds of winning do but that’s really more of the minority of premades you run into.
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
Most pugs won’t use it. The reason is that we don’t want to get involved so deeply with other people. Chat is nice and impersonal – you don’t have to hear others talk, or listen to their voice. And you can have decent teamwork just by looking at the map.
Voice chat is…something that takes the fun out of being alone.
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Is dumbing down teamwork the issue? Because I don’t want to solve that issue.
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Is dumbing down teamwork the issue? Because I don’t want to solve that issue.
No, separating the queues is.
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Is dumbing down teamwork the issue? Because I don’t want to solve that issue.
No, separating the queues is.
Is the player base large enough to do so?
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Is dumbing down teamwork the issue? Because I don’t want to solve that issue.
No, separating the queues is.
Is the player base large enough to do so?
Do you really think the player base will grow if every solo player will be matched against premades?
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Is dumbing down teamwork the issue? Because I don’t want to solve that issue.
No, separating the queues is.
Is the player base large enough to do so?
When the two were separate, I don’t remember having long wait times for solo. I think the playerbase is definitely large enough. Maybe it would be larger for team q, but since most of us solo, that’s not really a problem. We can’t spoil the game just because a small number of premades are being incovenienced.
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Is dumbing down teamwork the issue? Because I don’t want to solve that issue.
No, separating the queues is.
Is the player base large enough to do so?
When the two were separate, I don’t remember having long wait times for solo. I think the playerbase is definitely large enough. Maybe it would be larger for team q, but since most of us solo, that’s not really a problem. We can’t spoil the game just because a small number of premades are being incovenienced.
+1
Due to -Premade vs Solo- issue playerbase is smaller and smaller. As example I can tell you that nobody (N-O-B-O-D-Y) on my friendlist and/or guild isn’t playing GW2 anymore.
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Is dumbing down teamwork the issue? Because I don’t want to solve that issue.
No, separating the queues is.
Is the player base large enough to do so?
When the two were separate, I don’t remember having long wait times for solo. I think the playerbase is definitely large enough. Maybe it would be larger for team q, but since most of us solo, that’s not really a problem. We can’t spoil the game just because a small number of premades are being incovenienced.
+1
Due to -Premade vs Solo- issue playerbase is smaller and smaller. As example I can tell you that nobody (N-O-B-O-D-Y) on my friendlist and/or guild isn’t playing GW2 anymore.
And that is due to pre made teams in pvp is it…?
Space Marine Z [GLTY]
Just put in a in-game Voice communication instead. Now, pugs can reap the benefits.
Yeah, the problem is half of the people wouldn’t use it.
You see half of the pugs not using it, I see a half more of the pugs using it.
This would let more players form actual teams because the game loses the barrier and the players do not need to download third party voice communications. Also they would form teams because they want to play with players that want to dedicate teamwork by using voice com.
Meaning, OP can just form a “LFG Must have teamwork!”
The point is it wouldn’t solve the issue.
Is dumbing down teamwork the issue? Because I don’t want to solve that issue.
No, separating the queues is.
Is the player base large enough to do so?
When the two were separate, I don’t remember having long wait times for solo. I think the playerbase is definitely large enough. Maybe it would be larger for team q, but since most of us solo, that’s not really a problem. We can’t spoil the game just because a small number of premades are being incovenienced.
+1
Due to -Premade vs Solo- issue playerbase is smaller and smaller. As example I can tell you that nobody (N-O-B-O-D-Y) on my friendlist and/or guild isn’t playing GW2 anymore.And that is due to pre made teams in pvp is it…?
I do not know anything about his friend or guild, but I would say this is one of the reasons the population gets smaller and it doesn’t grow. If a new player goes into pvp and constantly faces premades, I imagine it cannot be fun at all. But this is obviously not the only issue. The matchmaking is horrible, the leaderboards are bad and there has been basically nothing happening since the last season which ended two months ago. I cannot imagine how this would be attractive to new players or keep old players playing.
Premade /= winning
Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.
In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.
Believe me I know this, but even the worst 5 man premade can beat and outrotate a bunch of solo queue pugs, even if the pugs are better players individually they simply cannot communicate in an efficient manner.