Resistance in PvP
-50% effectiveness -50% damage would be fine.
nearly all the condition-dependent professions have ways to remove, corrupt or steal boons
however if people dont use those abilities just because they are not in the meta build well its their problem
Alex Shadowdagger – Thief – Blacktide
I wouldn’t say -50% because Elementalist can pump out the 40% protection and we saw how incredible that dmg negation is, it would be too much.
50% is 10,000 turning into 5,000 or 100 turning into 50. Keeping it 33% you can at the very least see your opponents hp drop 77% and then they have time to cast their condition cleanses. It’s better than dying faster than you can react to pressing your keyboard.
nearly all the condition-dependent professions have ways to remove, corrupt or steal boons
however if people dont use those abilities just because they are not in the meta build well its their problem
Yes but it’s the fact this 1 boon is only in a select few professions, and it negates 100% dmg from a newly main damage type Anet tried to introduce through HoT. It’s a boon it’s not a utility it shouldn’t do this. It’s more of a shield than it is a minor buff which is what boons are intended to be.
How about a rune or trait that eliminates condition damage until someone is under 50% health? xD
It’s a bit ridiculous to be honest. It’s called resistance, not immunity
I wouldn’t say -50% because Elementalist can pump out the 40% protection and we saw how incredible that dmg negation is, it would be too much.
50% is 10,000 turning into 5,000 or 100 turning into 50. Keeping it 33% you can at the very least see your opponents hp drop 77% and then they have time to cast their condition cleanses. It’s better than dying faster than you can react to pressing your keyboard.
Protection is 33% BASE dmg reduction as such is completely useless against direct dmg + crit dmg +dmg multiplier, protection reduction gets applied on base dmg..then the base dmg get multiplied by traits and crit dmg making that reduction completely insignificant.
If protection would be any way as effective as resistance, eles would run arcane and no earth line, with arcane and warhorn you can literally have perma protection..but you don’t see any arcana warhorn ele and why is that?
Because protection alone does jack squat alone compared to resistance that offers complete immunity, on top of protection you need toughness if you want to survive dmg spikes.
Druid use nature magic with warden with the added weakness effect that reduce the direct dmg further by halving the crit chance.
If protection alone would do ele any good….eles would run full zerker and be ESL level burst but as we know that doesn’t happen because….protection is not even nearly as effective as folks on the forum make it to be
It doesn’t matter where the reduction of protection is being calculated in since all variables are being multiplied.
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I wouldn’t say -50% because Elementalist can pump out the 40% protection and we saw how incredible that dmg negation is, it would be too much.
50% is 10,000 turning into 5,000 or 100 turning into 50. Keeping it 33% you can at the very least see your opponents hp drop 77% and then they have time to cast their condition cleanses. It’s better than dying faster than you can react to pressing your keyboard.
Protection is 33% BASE dmg reduction as such is completely useless against direct dmg + crit dmg +dmg multiplier, protection reduction gets applied on base dmg..then the base dmg get multiplied by traits and crit dmg making that reduction completely insignificant.
If protection would be any way as effective as resistance, eles would run arcane and no earth line, with arcane and warhorn you can literally have perma protection..but you don’t see any arcana warhorn ele and why is that?
Because protection alone does jack squat alone compared to resistance that offers complete immunity, on top of protection you need toughness if you want to survive dmg spikes.
Druid use nature magic with warden with the added weakness effect that reduce the direct dmg further by halving the crit chance.
If protection alone would do ele any good….eles would run full zerker and be ESL level burst but as we know that doesn’t happen because….protection is not even nearly as effective as folks on the forum make it to be
what? protection reduces the final damage by 33% and thats why its so strong and power builds that can lift boons from enemies try to remove it first and foremost
Alex Shadowdagger – Thief – Blacktide
It’s a bit ridiculous to be honest. It’s called resistance, not immunity
Play a good necro and you will think what is even the point of resistance.
Having seen java and that other top 10 player who plays necro in ranked with there necros i can tell you with 100% confidence its not immunity.
It’s a bit ridiculous to be honest. It’s called resistance, not immunity
That’s true, however, current conditions in the SPVP scene ramp up so fast you cannot cleanse them fast enough so the current resistance mechanic almost feels required.
This is why I feel it’d be best to implement resistance to mirror protection, percent dmg mitigation, so you don’t die instantly, and professions that use condition dmg don’t get this huge break in their dmg against someone who’s got a lot of resistance.
This is only after the scaling to condition dmg is reduced in SPVP as well so it doesn’t feel like a direct nerf as much as a mechanic change that in theory should work.
The idea is to bring back cleanses since they’re only worth it if it’s a mass cleanse like Druid’s – Celestial Form’s trait for cleanse/stunbreak or Guardian’s Meditation – Contemplation of Purity.
You don’t see shout warriors or shout guardians partly because they cannot keep up with today’s conditions. But conditions are only incredibly overpowered due to the fact resistance is 100% immunity.
(edited by Muy.3170)
How about a rune or trait that eliminates condition damage until someone is under 50% health? xD
But then condition dmg wouldn’t work period, it’d be just like going back to Old Version of Diamond Skin Trait earth Grandmaster on Elementalists – Conditions don’t apply to you until under 90% health.
You’re making it on a rune that every player could grab negating a whole dmg type in the game if equipped.
It’s a bit ridiculous to be honest. It’s called resistance, not immunity
Play a good necro and you will think what is even the point of resistance.
Having seen java and that other top 10 player who plays necro in ranked with there necros i can tell you with 100% confidence its not immunity.
That has nothing to do with the boon in of itself, that’s Necromancer’s ability to corrupt being strong from the overly exaggerated boon application.
The already extinct Mallyx Rev build will be literally nothing if you do that. You have to tune warrior independently. Conditions are already over the top if you are not running a warrior.
And they are not nerfing conditions anytime soon, unless they only tweak those selected few builds that bomb and kill in just seconds from the clusterkitten of conditions.
Stella Truth Seeker
(edited by XxsdgxX.8109)
The already extinct Mallyx Rev build will be literally nothing if you do that. You have to tune warrior independently. Conditions are already over the top if you are not running a warrior.
And they are not nerfing conditions anytime soon, unless they only tweak those selected few builds that bomb and kill in just seconds from the clusterkitten of conditions.
The logic behind it is to make resistance less of a 100% counter and make it more of a buff like protection.
Right now it’s just like endure pain but in boon form for condi damage only. It feels like a cheesy way to negate all of the damage type and only select professions have it.
Make it -33% effectiveness and damage then the clusterkitten condibomb you mentioned now doesn’t eat 40% of your hp a tick but lets you manage it and use your condi clears on time.
It’s a bit ridiculous to be honest. It’s called resistance, not immunity
Play a good necro and you will think what is even the point of resistance.
Having seen java and that other top 10 player who plays necro in ranked with there necros i can tell you with 100% confidence its not immunity.
That has nothing to do with the boon in of itself, that’s Necromancer’s ability to corrupt being strong from the overly exaggerated boon application.
And that shows resistance counter play.
Since HOT everything is over the top, sustain, support, damage, boons blocks, invulnerability.
Ok everything is over the top and warrior sits here with 2 stances and a defense line that is a must for any build. When talking about resistance many people are talking warriors and warrior is struggling.
The fact that endure the pain does nothing against condi shows its counter and when you pop beserker stance. You can have your only chance to survive condi fights taken away which happens constantly against good players. Shows its not a issue in the current PvP.
I was in a mid vs a ele-necro mesmer and i was warrior with a DH and druid and the necro stole my resistance. I had endure the pain up and beserker stance and i took around 9k in about 2 sec.
Resistance is not a issue, if you want something changed. Change how how fast and strong condi can be applied before changing the defensive way of dealing with it.
Or people could just start using necros, or nulli sigils, or a mallyx rev.
boon removal is a thing.
Resistance is not a common boon, it has few sources and it has lowest uptime of any boon.
The only change I would make to resistance is that fear and taunt should still interrupt people with resistance.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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(edited by Crinn.7864)
The issue is that it’s not a very common boon, The idea is to reduce condition spikes reducing the effectiveness of conditions and reduce the huge ticks you receive from conditions, while also making resistance useful but not essential.
We shouldn’t be relying on one specific profession’s build to remove boons like this. Boons should not be so powerful that they completely negate 100% of a dmg type no matter how short the duration is.
Currently, although the build is very poor, Mallyx revs can generate permanent resistance for his team. Warriors can apply permanent resistance with boon duration amulets. Let us say anet adds a new condition dmg/boon duration amulet doesn’t that leave the resistance users an advantage with their condition dmg builds? It stops new unique amulets with these stats in the future, not all the condition builds can counter resistance but they should be only at a disadvantage vs it not countered. We can’t let all professions have boon removal either.
The only debatable reason anet doesn’t update revenants – Mallyx is because the potential is crazy, they don’t want to make it overpowered like Bunker Mesmer was. Should we halt update on specific professions though because we don’t want to normalize boons that are outliers like resistance?
The nerfs would also bring back old shouts utilities. Currently, shouts are thrown out! Nobody uses them because condition bombs are so strong you die before you can cast or tap your keyboard for the instant cast not only that but the after effects from massive chill durations gut the recharge time.
One major issue for warrior and this overhaul in SPVP would be having to revert the changes to the skill Berserker Stance to the older version.
(edited by Muy.3170)
I think the problem is that boon removal shouldn’t only remove boons, but all buffs. I’ve also said this in my own topic.
Atleast in PvP, because at the moment there is just TOO much damage negation, and boon removal doesn’t help when the effect that renews these boons doesn’t get removed.
The issue is that it’s not a very common boon, The idea is to reduce condition spikes reducing the effectiveness of conditions and reduce the huge ticks you receive from conditions, while also making resistance useful but not essential.
We shouldn’t be relying on one specific profession’s build to remove boons like this. Boons should not be so powerful that they completely negate 100% of a dmg type no matter how short the duration is.
Currently, although the build is very poor, Mallyx revs can generate permanent resistance for his team. Warriors can apply permanent resistance with boon duration amulets. Let us say anet adds a new condition dmg/boon duration amulet doesn’t that leave the resistance users an advantage with their condition dmg builds? It stops new unique amulets with these stats in the future, not all the condition builds can counter resistance but they should be only at a disadvantage vs it not countered. We can’t let all professions have boon removal either.
The only debatable reason anet doesn’t update revenants – Mallyx is because the potential is crazy, they don’t want to make it overpowered like Bunker Mesmer was. Should we halt update on specific professions though because we don’t want to normalize boons that are outliers like resistance?
The nerfs would also bring back old shouts utilities. Currently, shouts are thrown out! Nobody uses them because condition bombs are so strong you die before you can cast or tap your keyboard for the instant cast not only that but the after effects from massive chill durations gut the recharge time.
One major issue for warrior and this overhaul in SPVP would be having to revert the changes to the skill Berserker Stance to the older version.
The problem here is that you’re arguing from the assumption that condis are overpowered.
Condi “bombs” where introduced with HoT because pre-HoT condi builds where worthless because your damage would get cleared instantly. Burn was the only condi of value and even then it was considered a gimmick and saw little play at higher levels.
Currently, although the build is very poor, Mallyx revs can generate permanent resistance for his team. Warriors can apply permanent resistance with boon duration amulets.
Warrior’s don’t run perma resistance because Diviner’s is a terrible amulet that would leave them vulnerable to power damage and would also cut into their own damage. Mallyx revs giving perma resistance doesn’t happen in practical situations, and mallyx is vulnerable to power damage.
Also warrior resistance is a nerf compared to pre-Hot where berserker stance gave total immunity to condi application while also being uncorruptable in the way resistance is.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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One possible idea for resistance is make it like stability. You get stacks of it and it prevents a condi application per stack.
This way it acts like a pre-emptive clear and doesn’t provide immunity. It would also lessen the impact of boonstripping/corruption (although the boonstripping builds would be more efficient at clearing it).
Another option would be to make resistance a boon that prevents application rather than immunity to all conditions that are currently on the person. Complete immunity, despite the corruptable/strippable nature of a regular boon, frustrates people who find their damage and cc completely negated until resistance runs out. If we keep “immunity” then it should be application and not an “oh I messed up button.” Traditional condi clears can handle the after the fact side of it.
Of course, we can also make resistance a condi duration reduction which is still a strong thing to have access to. There are just so many good options for making resistance effective and interesting with counter-play. It might take a major balance patch to be addressed though given the substance of the change being at the design level and not in the more simple duration/stacks/effectiveness side that the spvp team has been able to implement for their mode.
The boon is in a good place because it forces condition offenders to make choices. If they make the correct choices, they can get past the resistance. If they don’t, they fail and come here and complain that they shouldn’t be forced to choose correctly.
Good feedback guys I enjoy your points.
Conditions are in a spot where it’s hard to state whether their current dmg application is over powered or not. In my opinion current hp on professions under 20,000HP make conditions look overpowered. Mostly from the fact you have burns lasting 5 seconds in stacks of 6 ticking 2,000 dmg total of 10,000 dmg over time, or you have 8 stacks of bleeds thats got a 20sec timer ticking for 1400 adding up to 28,000 dmg over time.
But we can’t forget the fact conditions are scaled to take into the account of players recieving resistance so they don’t feel weak. Someone who actually can apply this boon needs to take large condition dmg before their immunity kicks in. But do to this cleansing is almost worthless with how fast conditions get pushed out along with how long they can last now.
Sure a little bit of cleansing adds up to become a lot but you’re spamming 5 utilities that either cleanse 1/2/3 conditions that then go on 25sec+ cd’s to then still suffer from other player’s sources. These spikes only come from comboing traits and skills on one player adding 2 or 3 it gets a bit out of hand and uncontrollable.
Having the Resistance boon is very important for the longer duration conditions that debuff such as chill, weakness, and cripple which effectivly lesson mobility or defensive skills cool downs. Nerfing Resistance’s effectiveness while promoting more sources of it gives a good reason to reduce conditions effectiveness, while not leaving players suffering the 5 seconds your dead gameplay.
The boon is in a good place because it forces condition offenders to make choices. If they make the correct choices, they can get past the resistance. If they don’t, they fail and come here and complain that they shouldn’t be forced to choose correctly.
You’re forced to either go Necro or go Mesmer do to their easy implemented boon removal, maybe revenant if their builds ever get fixed.
Other condition professions like Ranger, Guardian, Warrior have to spike crazy amounts of dmg to get a fair amount of dmg to go through before resistance stops their dmg source. Or they go on cooldown and run and sit in the back waiting to reset and burst again.
Hybrid builds currently do not have much support from the majority of the amulets, being glassy in nature, fast and hard hitting builds with, good synergy, will kill the hybrid. Amulets such as Destroyer, Rampager, and Sinister, cannot handle better more focused builds.
(edited by Muy.3170)
I think the problem is that boon removal shouldn’t only remove boons, but all buffs. I’ve also said this in my own topic.
Atleast in PvP, because at the moment there is just TOO much damage negation, and boon removal doesn’t help when the effect that renews these boons doesn’t get removed.
That damage negation exists because there’s too much damage going on. A lot of professions struggle breaking their metas because the same skills are required for handling this damage. Reducing the defence gives just enough reason to reduce the damage as well.
I don’t really have an opinion on this topic, but allow me to clarify a misunderstanding I think some may have:
The reason resistance has 100% damage reduction for conditions, while protection only does 33% reduction for directD, is because directD is applied all at once while conditions occur over time. On paper, this means that resistance should only end up absorbing around 20-50% of the dmg delt by a condition, since it will likely run out before the condition expires (ignoring cleanses).
Anyway, I hoped that helped for some.
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I would realy appreciate if resistance would only affect damaging conditions. Atm as an condi-engi for example there is no counterplay against builds with high resi-uptime. You cant even kite them properly because you cant root, cripple, chill, etc.