Guild Wars 2

…is a silly boon to have in this game in this current form. Boon removal is typically scarce, while boons themselves are plentiful and easily applied. This makes stripping dangerous boons (notably retaliation) or important ones (protection) a literal gamble.

Bunker builds typically run some form retaliation application, making them not only hard to take down, but actually dangerous, especially for professions with a fast hitting skill or overall low health. One could argue that “not attacking” is the counter to retaliation – and I would agree if most instances of it were only a few seconds long. But this isn’t the case. I’d also add that since you only need one person to hold a capture point from being taken by however many, “not attacking” isn’t exactly a fun thing to do.

“Not playing” is what most players seem to currently do.

Cynicism aside, the possible fixes:

-Limit the duration of retaliation to 4-5 seconds at most, making it a powerful but not ridiculous counter to glass cannons / fast attackers
-Make the returned damage % based rather than flat
-Cap the possible damage returned from the boon alone
-Remove it from the game at all. It’s not a fun mechanic to deal with and causes more issues than benefits.

*-Disregard the above, add more ways to gain retaliation, but make it stack in intensity, making it more active than reactive. The first few stacks (5-7) should obviously be weaker than currently.

Retaliation, imo, should have been designed more as an active defense system rather than passive damage over time. Retaliation should stack in intensity and it should REALLY hurt if you are attacking someone with multiple stacks of retaliation, obviously the duration should be cut down to justify its increased potency. It’s duration should be similar to that of confusion.

Seether.7285:

Retaliation, imo, should have been designed more as an active defense system rather than passive damage over time. Retaliation should stack in intensity and it should REALLY hurt if you are attacking someone with multiple stacks of retaliation, obviously the duration should be cut down to justify its increased potency. It’s duration should be similar to that of confusion.

Yes, that’s what I was trying to convey. It needs to be more active, not reactive.

Highest retaliation on a guardian is already 5 seconds 6 if you go the virtue line with vengeful and that’s only one skill for underwater combat. Most of them are 1-3 seconds. I think they’ve been saying they were going to look into it, but i honestly think it’s fine as is.

munkiman.3068:

Highest retaliation on a guardian is already 5 seconds 6 if you go the virtue line with vengeful and that’s only one skill for underwater combat. Most of them are 1-3 seconds. I think they’ve been saying they were going to look into it, but i honestly think it’s fine as is.

edit: Scratch that, I for got save yourselves… oops

… “the first few stacks” … as in thieves opener, should not have to deal with it?
Frankly … as if haste-based builds are not broken enough you are asking for a passive buff? If anything it is haste-centered builds have to go (imho).

But apart from that, I DO agree that the mindless aspect should go … be that haste, retaliation or whatnot. But it should happen across the board not as a passive buff to something that is already mindless.

Both mesmer and necro have significant boon removal skills. Both thief and guardian can trait into boon removal as well.

I don’t think that retaliation is broken. Maybe it could use some minor adjustment, or perhaps boon removal/conversion could be tweaked, but I don’t see any reason for major changes to how it currently works.

Maybe boon removal should apply a condition that prevents the re-application of the boon which had been stripped for a certain period of time. That (combined with a slight change to Bountiful Theft) would make 3 classes strong against boon stacking bunker guardians. That should be more than enough classes with an advantage there.

Syeria.4812:

Both mesmer and necro have significant boon removal skills. Both thief and guardian can trait into boon removal as well.

I don’t think that retaliation is broken. Maybe it could use some minor adjustment, or perhaps boon removal/conversion could be tweaked, but I don’t see any reason for major changes to how it currently works.

Maybe boon removal should apply a condition that prevents the re-application of the boon which had been stripped for a certain period of time. That (combined with a slight change to Bountiful Theft) would make 3 classes strong against boon stacking bunker guardians. That should be more than enough classes with an advantage there.

Oh .. but then the ppl playing Rambo has to cooperate … we can’t have that.
But yeah .. I completely agree. It is just so horribly few ppl that even bother to remove retaliation (or any buff really). I have run on my guardian all evening, and even with 4 necro’s on the opposing team (granted it was a random 8vs8) not once was any of my boons corrupted or removed. Same with mesmers. People are so hyped about doing damage, that they forget to work as a team.

i think it needs to be nerfed because i find it silly that i can sit in my Greatsword symbol and the thief just dies without me doing anything else.
also the problem is that there really is no counter without “waiting it out” because most classes don’t have boon removal abilities

Retaliation only affects glassy builds this way. Same is true of Thief burst, or burst in general.

Same is also true of the new rez timers. Fact is, almost everyone that has any major complaints about this game, seem to be making horrible burst builds. If the stats are the same as they were a month or two ago, Retaliation at MAX can only hit you back for around 350 per hit, and that’s if the person actually stacks power to the max. That’s pretty negligible compared to other damage. On the average it’s more around 240ish.

kaplis.7195:

i think it needs to be nerfed because i find it silly that i can sit in my Greatsword symbol and the thief just dies without me doing anything else.
also the problem is that there really is no counter without “waiting it out” because most classes don’t have boon removal abilities

Boon removal, low attack speed spike damage, and conditions (I’m fairly certain on this point) are all counters to retaliation. Boon removal obviously completely negates it. Low attack speed spike damage deals high damage to retaliation buffed players without incurring meaningful amounts of damage (as retaliation does flat damage per hit). Conditions (especially those applied in the same manner as caltrops) don’t trigger retaliation.

Really, the only things meaningfully affected by it are high attack speed or extremely low vitality type builds. Necros and mesmers can be completely immune if specced in that manner. Thieves have both the option of traiting into boon removal or the application of conditions without significantly triggering retaliation. Other guardians are more or less unaffected (as they can do it as well). Warriors have the HP and option for low attack speed spike so they have a counter. I don’t play ranger at all so I have no idea on their front. The same is true for me with engineer, but I believe that turret builds can diffuse retaliation damage so engineers should have a counter. It really seems that eles are the only ones truly without a real counter, and their healing abilities may be seen as sufficient mitigation.

Just because people often don’t choose to counter it doesn’t mean they can’t.

aydenunited.5729:

Retaliation only affects glassy builds this way. Same is true of Thief burst, or burst in general.

The issue is that if you make glass cannon builds unviable (meta-speaking – bunkers everywhere = no glass), you literally kill 60% of the game’s possible builds, and variety.

Xae.7204:

Thieves already cried enough to get Retalation nerfed once, lay off the waterworks a bit.

Bunker builds are a hard counter to your class (Thieves), you don’t get to kill everyone, some people get to kill you too.

I’d rather have a game where player skill and reflex > profession picks / trait builds in importance. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

Poxxia.1547:

… “the first few stacks” … as in thieves opener, should not have to deal with it?
Frankly … as if haste-based builds are not broken enough you are asking for a passive buff? If anything it is haste-centered builds have to go (imho).

I dislike haste as well. Don’t look at things in a vaccum; we just have to cut the spiral somewhere, and it very likely starts with bunker builds.

Syeria.4812:

kaplis.7195:

i think it needs to be nerfed because i find it silly that i can sit in my Greatsword symbol and the thief just dies without me doing anything else.
also the problem is that there really is no counter without “waiting it out” because most classes don’t have boon removal abilities

Boon removal, low attack speed spike damage, and conditions (I’m fairly certain on this point) are all counters to retaliation. Boon removal obviously completely negates it. Low attack speed spike damage deals high damage to retaliation buffed players without incurring meaningful amounts of damage (as retaliation does flat damage per hit). Conditions (especially those applied in the same manner as caltrops) don’t trigger retaliation.

Really, the only things meaningfully affected by it are high attack speed or extremely low vitality type builds. Necros and mesmers can be completely immune if specced in that manner. Thieves have both the option of traiting into boon removal or the application of conditions without significantly triggering retaliation. Other guardians are more or less unaffected (as they can do it as well). Warriors have the HP and option for low attack speed spike so they have a counter. I don’t play ranger at all so I have no idea on their front. The same is true for me with engineer, but I believe that turret builds can diffuse retaliation damage so engineers should have a counter. It really seems that eles are the only ones truly without a real counter, and their healing abilities may be seen as sufficient mitigation.

Just because people often don’t choose to counter it doesn’t mean they can’t.

The fact that you would need to trait to counter a single boon says enough about it for me – still, you choose to ignore one of my main argument, that of RNG. Guardians and engineers, the two main culprits, typically have many other boons, and quick applications at that. Add that to the fact that (from a thief’s perspective) Steal has a lenghty cooldown, fails often for no apparent reason, and requires a 20 point investment into one of the worst traitline for glassy builds (trickery), and that flanking strike is flat out awful, and, erhm, we have a problem.

Oxygen.5918:

Syeria.4812:

kaplis.7195:

i think it needs to be nerfed because i find it silly that i can sit in my Greatsword symbol and the thief just dies without me doing anything else.
also the problem is that there really is no counter without “waiting it out” because most classes don’t have boon removal abilities

Boon removal, low attack speed spike damage, and conditions (I’m fairly certain on this point) are all counters to retaliation. Boon removal obviously completely negates it. Low attack speed spike damage deals high damage to retaliation buffed players without incurring meaningful amounts of damage (as retaliation does flat damage per hit). Conditions (especially those applied in the same manner as caltrops) don’t trigger retaliation.

Really, the only things meaningfully affected by it are high attack speed or extremely low vitality type builds. Necros and mesmers can be completely immune if specced in that manner. Thieves have both the option of traiting into boon removal or the application of conditions without significantly triggering retaliation. Other guardians are more or less unaffected (as they can do it as well). Warriors have the HP and option for low attack speed spike so they have a counter. I don’t play ranger at all so I have no idea on their front. The same is true for me with engineer, but I believe that turret builds can diffuse retaliation damage so engineers should have a counter. It really seems that eles are the only ones truly without a real counter, and their healing abilities may be seen as sufficient mitigation.

Just because people often don’t choose to counter it doesn’t mean they can’t.

The fact that you would need to trait to counter a single boon says enough about it for me – still, you choose to ignore one of my main argument, that of RNG. Guardians and engineers, the two main culprits, typically have many other boons, and quick applications at that. Add that to the fact that (from a thief’s perspective) Steal has a lenghty cooldown, fails often for no apparent reason, and requires a 20 point investment into one of the worst traitline for glassy builds (trickery), and that flanking strike is flat out awful, and, erhm, we have a problem.

But as a thief you don’t have to trait boon removal as conditions are also an option. Bunkers are a counter to glass cannons, other classes and builds are a counter to bunkers, and glass cannons can be a counter to those other builds. If you’re a glass cannon, maybe you shouldn’t attack that guardian, and let someone with a different build fight him while you attack the rest of the team. Let the necros (corrupt boon converts all boons into conditions) and mesmers (multiple utilities and an auto-attack that removes boons) take care of retaliation if it’s causing you trouble.

Some builds will counter your build and seem more or less insurmountable. This is a good thing, and reflects good balance rather than an actual issue.

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Thieves already cried enough to get Retalation nerfed once, lay off the waterworks a bit.

Bunker builds are a hard counter to your class (Thieves), you don’t get to kill everyone, some people get to kill you too.

I’d rather have a game where player skill and reflex > profession picks / trait builds in importance. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

There is skill in knowing who you can and who you can not beat.

There is teamwork in having builds be strong against some, and weak against others.

Do you not think that some class/builds should be able to beat a Thief?

Do you not think that teamwork should be rewarded?

I can be a sarcastic too you know.

Being “good” at a game comes down to more than just PUSH BUTTAN, there is the whole mental aspect and knowledge of mechanics. Most builds do not have 100% Retaliation uptime. It is up to you as the player to outplay the person on the other end, and bait out their cooldowns, then beat them.

Also, thieves CAN spec for boon removal. You just choose not to.

Xae.7204:

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Thieves already cried enough to get Retalation nerfed once, lay off the waterworks a bit.

Bunker builds are a hard counter to your class (Thieves), you don’t get to kill everyone, some people get to kill you too.

I’d rather have a game where player skill and reflex > profession picks / trait builds in importance. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

There is skill in knowing who you can and who you can not beat.

There is teamwork in having builds be strong against some, and weak against others.

Do you not think that some class/builds should be able to beat a Thief?

Do you not think that teamwork should be rewarded?

Knowing what you can and can’t beat isn’t a skill – it’s merely knowledge, and spending half a day in sPvP would pretty much set the score in that regard.

Teamwork is irrelevant to having strong or weak builds, especially if you consider my comment just below.

Teamwork is still rewarded through combo fields, not through sheer, shallow “I can’t beat you, but my friend can so suck it!”

I think that every class should beat every class. I initially thought this might actually be a possibility with GW2 having the dodge mechanic, blinding affecting the next attack, no healers, limited buff removal, and such, but there are many things trivializing these high skill capped features.

Just wanted to say that using corrupt boon and null field/arcane thievery to remove retaliation is a joke.

Firstly, builds that focus on retal can typically reapply it frequently in constant short bursts, so blowing ~40 sec cd’s on that is about as wasteful as it gets – and second, those utilities are 100% more useful in a variety of other, more critical situations (i.e. removing stability, bunker busting, countering epidemics, and so forth).

Also mesmer auto attack? No mesmer is going to run (and stay) into the middle of a team fight to spam sword #1 on somebody.

So yeah, I’m just generally not a fan of passive damage reflect in any sort of competitive game. If it has to be there, make it an active thing so players are forced to use it smartly and at the appropriate time.

Noctred.6732:

Just wanted to say that using corrupt boon and null field/arcane thievery to remove retaliation is a joke.

Firstly, builds that focus on retal can typically reapply it frequently in constant short bursts, so blowing ~40 sec cd’s on that is about as wasteful as it gets – and second, those utilities are 100% more useful in a variety of other, more critical situations (i.e. removing stability, bunker busting, countering epidemics, and so forth).

Also mesmer auto attack? No mesmer is going to run (and stay) into the middle of a team fight to spam sword #1 on somebody.

So yeah, I’m just generally not a fan of passive damage reflect in any sort of competitive game. If it has to be there, make it an active thing so players are forced to use it smartly and at the appropriate time.

Eloquently put better than I could. Thank you for your post.

Noctred.6732:

Just wanted to say that using corrupt boon and null field/arcane thievery to remove retaliation is a joke.

Firstly, builds that focus on retal can typically reapply it frequently in constant short bursts, so blowing ~40 sec cd’s on that is about as wasteful as it gets - and second, those utilities are 100% more useful in a variety of other, more critical situations (i.e. removing stability, bunker busting, countering epidemics, and so forth).

Also mesmer auto attack? No mesmer is going to run (and stay) into the middle of a team fight to spam sword #1 on somebody.

So yeah, I’m just generally not a fan of passive damage reflect in any sort of competitive game. If it has to be there, make it an active thing so players are forced to use it smartly and at the appropriate time.

But that does mean, that you are no fan of thieves initiative-system either? That is as mindless as it comes. And haste-centered build (which are the ones suffering from retaliation) .. you have to hate those, or?
Imho ... I haven’t really felt an issue with retaliation in any build that didn’t use haste (and was a glass-cannon as well). Is mindless haste-buffed PW "smart play"? Is it a tiny bit better if it has to be used along with some sort debuffing on the class who generates the buff most frequently? A bit imho. OP said it himself: He wants to play a glass-cannon with the most effective damage ... seriously. Isn’t it a good thing, there are some aspect/builds thieves can’t burst down every other second in 3 seconds or less? With 3k armor thieves BS hit me for 7k (yes, really ... alone with the guy, so no other source than him and his knives). Maybe it is good, that thieves invest some points in other trait-lines like everyone else? Isn’t PvP about surviving?

Another point: Isn’t it an illusion, that all builds can be balanced? When I think of the "L2P-comments" from thieves when they burst you from out of nowhere ... . Enough said.

Don’t get me wrong: I am no fan of either. But I think retaliation is one way to prevent pw-spam ... and nerfing one is equal to buffing the other.

Noctred.6732:

Just wanted to say that using corrupt boon and null field/arcane thievery to remove retaliation is a joke.

Firstly, builds that focus on retal can typically reapply it frequently in constant short bursts, so blowing ~40 sec cd’s on that is about as wasteful as it gets – and second, those utilities are 100% more useful in a variety of other, more critical situations (i.e. removing stability, bunker busting, countering epidemics, and so forth).

Also mesmer auto attack? No mesmer is going to run (and stay) into the middle of a team fight to spam sword #1 on somebody.

So yeah, I’m just generally not a fan of passive damage reflect in any sort of competitive game. If it has to be there, make it an active thing so players are forced to use it smartly and at the appropriate time.

So what you’re saying is that retaliation isn’t enough of a threat to justify using utilities to remove it. That more or less proves the point that it’s not really broken. Maybe it (or boon removal in general) needs a little tweaking, but if you can’t be bothered to use a skill you brought along anyway to counter it, it’s clearly not the huge issue the OP is trying to make it out to be.

Syeria.4812:

So what you’re saying is that retaliation isn’t enough of a threat to justify using utilities to remove it.

That’s a decent twist of my words, I guess?

I said two things -

1. Builds that focus on retal can reapply it quickly, frequently, and in short pulses. This means blowing 40+ second cooldowns to remove a single boon that will typically get reapplied shortly thereafter is wasteful.

2. There are bigger threats. Epidemic can wipe you quickly if the proper condi’s are spread. Stability stomps/revives can turn team fights instantly if stability isn’t stripped and the target controlled. Some bunker builds are easier to take down quickly with well timed boon strips/conversions and taking them down quickly can be the difference between whether or not you neut a node in time.

—

However, just because B is a bigger threat than A doesn’t suddenly turn A into a non-issue. It’s all relative.

Symbol guardians (bunker or non-bunker, doesn’t matter) are still the worst offenders probably. I’ve played one, it’s stupid simple and the amount of your total damage that comes from retal is laughably high.

Poxxia.1547:

But that does mean, that you are no fan of thieves initiative-system either? That is as mindless as it comes. And haste-centered build (which are the ones suffering from retaliation) .. you have to hate those, or?

Retal impacts everyone to some extent. My view on thief builds specifically is kinda irrelevant to this thread though?

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Thieves already cried enough to get Retalation nerfed once, lay off the waterworks a bit.

Bunker builds are a hard counter to your class (Thieves), you don’t get to kill everyone, some people get to kill you too.

I’d rather have a game where player skill and reflex > profession picks / trait builds in importance. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

There is skill in knowing who you can and who you can not beat.

There is teamwork in having builds be strong against some, and weak against others.

Do you not think that some class/builds should be able to beat a Thief?

Do you not think that teamwork should be rewarded?

Knowing what you can and can’t beat isn’t a skill – it’s merely knowledge, and spending half a day in sPvP would pretty much set the score in that regard.

Teamwork is irrelevant to having strong or weak builds, especially if you consider my comment just below.

Teamwork is still rewarded through combo fields, not through sheer, shallow “I can’t beat you, but my friend can so suck it!”

I think that every class should beat every class. I initially thought this might actually be a possibility with GW2 having the dodge mechanic, blinding affecting the next attack, no healers, limited buff removal, and such, but there are many things trivializing these high skill capped features.

You do not considering being informed to be useful.

I really don’t know how to respond to that.

You can beat a Guardian or Engineer on a Thief. People do it every day, the problem isn’t that Thief isn’t powerful enough, or that Retaliation is too powerful. The problem is that you are not good enough.

@Oxygen:
I completely get, that Corruption is a nice ability. As a player who does play necro frequently I do tend to look for the right moment … either when there are a lot of boons (if using epidemic, which I aren’t atm) or for stomps with stability. Those situations are ideal. But I do not play a full fight without using it … I use it in less ideal situations as well. It is too good to just sit there, and if I can get some chills, cripples, weakness going I take it if it saves somebody’s behind.

If you don’t find retaliation worth corrupting … well … as Syeria said: Then it is your priority. A build that utilize retaliation speccs for it, slots for it. OP is asking for not doing anything but to counter every possible specc with his optimized damage build. That is what I get upset about, if you didn’t guess it.
Your view on thieves may be irrelevant, but this specific buff does impact haste-centered builds the most … and the far most common are warriors and thieves.

I think this thread is not so much about retaliation, but about buffing PW-builds (the underlying reason for the suggestion). That is why I am asking for your opinion about it. Sure retaliation affects other classes … but apparently not enough to be countered by focusing the source or removing it. It is funny, because nearly every build I have use 2 stunbreakers due to haste+stun. And the ones using haste-builds can’t be bothered to some extend counter the counter?

What you are saying is, retaliation is hard to counter, because it is applied so frequently and for so short duration, right? I do understand that is an issue. How about a longer duration with fewer applications?

Xae.7204:

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Thieves already cried enough to get Retalation nerfed once, lay off the waterworks a bit.

Bunker builds are a hard counter to your class (Thieves), you don’t get to kill everyone, some people get to kill you too.

I’d rather have a game where player skill and reflex > profession picks / trait builds in importance. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

There is skill in knowing who you can and who you can not beat.

There is teamwork in having builds be strong against some, and weak against others.

Do you not think that some class/builds should be able to beat a Thief?

Do you not think that teamwork should be rewarded?

Knowing what you can and can’t beat isn’t a skill – it’s merely knowledge, and spending half a day in sPvP would pretty much set the score in that regard.

Teamwork is irrelevant to having strong or weak builds, especially if you consider my comment just below.

Teamwork is still rewarded through combo fields, not through sheer, shallow “I can’t beat you, but my friend can so suck it!”

I think that every class should beat every class. I initially thought this might actually be a possibility with GW2 having the dodge mechanic, blinding affecting the next attack, no healers, limited buff removal, and such, but there are many things trivializing these high skill capped features.

You do not considering being informed to be useful.

I really don’t know how to respond to that.

You can beat a Guardian or Engineer on a Thief. People do it every day, the problem isn’t that Thief isn’t powerful enough, or that Retaliation is too powerful. The problem is that you are not good enough.

Don’t put words in my mouth. I already have a hard time deciphering what you try to say, you don’t need to start arguing poorly on top of it. Being good or bad is irrelevant in this discussion – retaliation remains a boring boon to fight against, and boon removal is too scarce. If the game was as shallow as “knowing what you can beat and what you can’t”, we might as well go ahead and skip the 60$ to play rock-paper-scissor.

Poxxia.1547:

I think this thread is not so much about retaliation, but about buffing PW-builds (the underlying reason for the suggestion). That is why I am asking for your opinion about it. Sure retaliation affects other classes … but apparently not enough to be countered by focusing the source or removing it. It is funny, because nearly every build I have use 2 stunbreakers due to haste+stun. And the ones using haste-builds can’t be bothered to some extend counter the counter?

Pistol whip is certainly relevant to bring up, but so are other fast attacks and auto attacks as well. But regardless, my main point is that retaliation absolutely hard counters glass cannons without boon removal. No other boon or condition for that matter have such an impact.

Poxxia.1547:

What you are saying is, retaliation is hard to counter, because it is applied so frequently and for so short duration, right? I do understand that is an issue. How about a longer duration with fewer applications?

There’s still the issue of boon stripping being so scarce versus proffs that can apply an reapply a whole bunch of them quickly. This is becoming roulette.

retaliation is not that substantial unless your stupid enough to constantly attack someone with it for like 20 seconds. personally i feel the only change that needs to be made is more obvious dmg received notification after retaliation also dmg from conditions should be present in the battle log. if people knew more about its actual dmg overtime and how it scales with power then maybe people wouldnt be so angry at it

@Oxygen:
Boon-stripping is not scarce imho. It is a matter of preference … or choice if you like. Applying boons is a matter of choice as well. I can play my offensive guardian (not my main) with or without boon-sharing. Same for thieves. Thieves can choose to rip boons … I can’t recall all the classes and all their traits (and I am not gonna go through them now), but necro’s have more than one way to do it. If all classes could do it at will at all times, then what use would boons have? Skills like “Stand your ground” is basically a boon-application … what exactly do you want? Every defensive move to be negated by a boon-rip available every other second due to the geniality of initiative? Just wondering.

I really can’t see the point in buffing gimmicks .. I would much rather have thieves out of the gimmick-position and into a viable role build around awesome survivability and modest burst … not as it is now: Russian roulette with 6 bullets in the chamber.

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Oxygen.5918:

Xae.7204:

Thieves already cried enough to get Retalation nerfed once, lay off the waterworks a bit.

Bunker builds are a hard counter to your class (Thieves), you don’t get to kill everyone, some people get to kill you too.

I’d rather have a game where player skill and reflex > profession picks / trait builds in importance. Do you agree or disagree? Why?

There is skill in knowing who you can and who you can not beat.

There is teamwork in having builds be strong against some, and weak against others.

Do you not think that some class/builds should be able to beat a Thief?

Do you not think that teamwork should be rewarded?

Knowing what you can and can’t beat isn’t a skill – it’s merely knowledge, and spending half a day in sPvP would pretty much set the score in that regard.

Teamwork is irrelevant to having strong or weak builds, especially if you consider my comment just below.

Teamwork is still rewarded through combo fields, not through sheer, shallow “I can’t beat you, but my friend can so suck it!”

I think that every class should beat every class. I initially thought this might actually be a possibility with GW2 having the dodge mechanic, blinding affecting the next attack, no healers, limited buff removal, and such, but there are many things trivializing these high skill capped features.

You do not considering being informed to be useful.

I really don’t know how to respond to that.

You can beat a Guardian or Engineer on a Thief. People do it every day, the problem isn’t that Thief isn’t powerful enough, or that Retaliation is too powerful. The problem is that you are not good enough.

Don’t put words in my mouth. I already have a hard time deciphering what you try to say, you don’t need to start arguing poorly on top of it. Being good or bad is irrelevant in this discussion – retaliation remains a boring boon to fight against, and boon removal is too scarce. If the game was as shallow as “knowing what you can beat and what you can’t”, we might as well go ahead and skip the 60$ to play rock-paper-scissor.

You put words in my mouth, I put them in yours. Simple is it not?

Slow you roll and read more carefully, you are getting way too worked up over this.

You can’t beat everyone. Deal with it.

Edit: They also already nerfed these builds last patch. Another example of Thieves crying and Arena Net crawling over themselves to nerf something.

Retaliation and skills like it are almost always bad game design. Things that make you look for key spell effects in the current effect soup or even worse..stare at people’s buff bars are awful design and UI/UX issues waiting to happen. (If the idea is to force people to make a choice they have to not only be aware of it, but actually have a choice…. stopping attacking somebody for example, is often not a realistic option in a larger size fight if you’d like to win?)

Yet, damage shields and triggered on X damage… they always end up being thrown in these games and people always want to defend them as “skillz”…great mystery of MMO life to me. I suspect people find them interesting in PvE ,so thats why they always show up.

Oh .. so the amount in SPVP is due to the balance of retaliation? Mate .. I am laughing at that .. honestly, don’t you think there are more important issues than that making ppl leave? Like haste-based insta-gibs to name one? Or the balanced BS-builds (7k on 3k armor sounds fair- right .. and BS SURE does take a lot of setup .. oh wait, was it an auto-attack?)

Competitive … be whatever you like … ?? Yeah .. right .. as long as you take thieves into your considerations. On a warrior, retaliation is the least of my worries … on a pw-thief with no eyes and build as a glass-cannon I can see the issue. But should that build be viable in the first place? And fcol … what the devil do you not want to one-shot as thief every other second when your cd’s are up … oh I forgot: you don’t have to wait for that as thief !

Mate .. as long as you come with some vague hints and don’t come clear, I am gonna assume you are a PW-thief. And honestly … there are some very talented thieves, but my respect for that class/build has dwindled to absolutely nothing. If that specc isn’t viable as glasscannon vs tanks it is good news … not bad.

Seriously … you can’t beat every one in what build you like. Isn’t it obvious, that that was never the meaning? But you should have a good chance countering every specc with a specc of your own. I do not find thieves to have an issue there … on the contrary … they even provide some very beneficial buffs for the team along with unparalleled mobility. If you were so concerned about balance .. why don’t you look at rangers .. or warriors? Or try to build a balanced pw-thief … .

Poxxia.1547:

Oh .. so the amount in SPVP is due to the balance of retaliation?

It’s a factor. A skill-less mechanic, if you will. And the more of these, the less PvP becomes popular. On its own, retaliation manages to counter every glass cannon build. It’s a boon that kills much more than thieves – it kills variety.

@Oxygen: That is a nice theory. But it is a theory, nothing more.
I claim, that retaliation is one factor that keeps glass-cannon-thieves in check … and if anything that class is responsible for a huge drop in variety, and thereby retaliation promotes variety.

In other words: It is fine, that you nerf retaliation, but then make glass-cannon thieves non-viable and remove haste. Voila … welcome back variation. That would suit you fine, or?

PS: Nothing personal mate .. but I am not gonna respond anymore .. I think we are done now .. you want it nerfed for you PW-build, and I dislike glass-cannon haste-builds and find them to kill variation. Let us not waste time arguing. I do find your arguments flawed though … and I dislike that you don’t come clean with your intentions. The bias is still there, and for every ones sake it would be better to just say it.

What if Retaliation was severly restricted within skills and traits and became a 1-2s REFLECTION of damage. Can’t stack or chain it, give Retaliation an internal cooldown, kinda like Stealth’s Detected debuff.

Small blue bubble around the caster when activated. (Like the old animation for Shelter).

So, I guess I’m Out.

I have just been informed I will be banned from Guild Wars 2 if I continue to criticize Arena Nets handling of Thieves.

Edit: Almost every post defending Retaliation has been removed. I guess it doesn’t matter because Arena Net has clearly made up their mind.

Poxxia.1547:

@Oxygen: That is a nice theory. But it is a theory, nothing more.
I claim, that retaliation is one factor that keeps glass-cannon-thieves in check … and if anything that class is responsible for a huge drop in variety, and thereby retaliation promotes variety.

You keep looking at things in a vacuum. Retaliation is just one step in a vast number of changes this game needs to see. I just bring it up because I felt like it – but it could’ve very well been topics like glass cannons, bunker builds, haste, culling, the issues with a point capture system, useless skills / traits, gear power disparities, …

I’d rather see both pistol whip and retaliation go away, since you bring up PW. But my discussion is far from limited to the effects of retaliation versus PW. If you can’t see the design issues behind a boon punishing “fighting” in a game of point capture, then there’s little I can do with you in the first place.

Oxygen.5918:

Poxxia.1547:

@Oxygen: That is a nice theory. But it is a theory, nothing more.
I claim, that retaliation is one factor that keeps glass-cannon-thieves in check … and if anything that class is responsible for a huge drop in variety, and thereby retaliation promotes variety.

You keep looking at things in a vacuum. Retaliation is just one step in a vast number of changes this game needs to see. I just bring it up because I felt like it – but it could’ve very well been topics like glass cannons, bunker builds, haste, culling, the issues with a point capture system, useless skills / traits, gear power disparities, …

I’d rather see both pistol whip and retaliation go away, since you bring up PW. But my discussion is far from limited to the effects of retaliation versus PW. If you can’t see the design issues behind a boon punishing “fighting” in a game of point capture, then there’s little I can do with you in the first place.

Ok … I feel like I have to answer this one.
No, I don’t see things in a vacuum. Maybe if you read what I wrote? If you look at one variable you are looking at it in a vacuum (as in isolating it from other variables). That is exactly what I am saying can’t be done. I don’t like retaliation either, as I said above, but as a mechanism that holds another broken mechanism in check it has its purpose imho. That is exactly the opposite of looking at things in a vacuum.

You seem to want to look at one variable in a context where I find it to make no sense to look at it isolated. Granted, that is not “a vacuum”, but it is not a viable way to do it either imo.

“If you can’t see the design issues behind a boon punishing “fighting” in a game of point capture, then there’s little I can do with you in the first place.". Ok .. I will look beyond the attempt to insult … and say this: What do you want to do with all the boon-sharing and shared condition-removal? Several classes depend on buffing and supporting to be viable. There are many mechanisms that punishes fighting in a tight space … would you remove them all? If you dislike “this designflaw”, then there is a lot more that should feel fundamentally wrong, than just retaliation. But that is a discussion that is a lot bigger.

I just think we should agree to disagree … and let it be at that.

@Xae: Sorry to hear that. Then I should be next. Funny thing is I even like thieves … I just dislike gimmicks of any kind

Have to say that running a S\D thief i can usually keep up with guardians with retaliation and if they are not good i can kill them 1vs1….do you want to know how to counter retaliation with a thief? Have you ever heard about sbow? That thing that shoots arrows, with conditions and evasion while you are far from symbols and without insane bursts that would kill you in seconds with retaliation? Yeah, i know that maybe it sounds strange…but you can actually use it, not only D\D or PW unskilled crap…Pressure is the way to go with bunkers…glass cannon burst are just suicidal…and you don’t need an aerospace engineering master to understand this…bunkers = they have to stay in one place holding it…so why don’t you stay just out where they can’t go and use ranged stuff? It’s really simple…and yes aoe poison arrow is not reflected by guardians if you aim it on the ground outside the shield

Archaon.6245:

Have to say that running a S\D thief i can usually keep up with guardians with retaliation and if they are not good i can kill them 1vs1….do you want to know how to counter retaliation with a thief? Have you ever heard about sbow? That thing that shoots arrows, with conditions and evasion while you are far from symbols and without insane bursts that would kill you in seconds with retaliation? Yeah, i know that maybe it sounds strange…but you can actually use it, not only D\D crap…Pressure is the way to go with bunkers…glass cannon burst are just suicidal…and you don’t need an aerospace engineering master to understand this…bunkers = they have to stay in one place holding it…so why don’t you stay just out where they can’t go and use ranged stuff? It’s really simple…and yes aoe poison arrow is not reflected by guardians if you aim it on the ground outside the shield

This.

Archaon.6245:

Have to say that running a S\D thief i can usually keep up with guardians with retaliation and if they are not good i can kill them 1vs1….do you want to know how to counter retaliation with a thief? Have you ever heard about sbow? That thing that shoots arrows, with conditions and evasion while you are far from symbols and without insane bursts that would kill you in seconds with retaliation? Yeah, i know that maybe it sounds strange…but you can actually use it, not only D\D or PW unskilled crap…Pressure is the way to go with bunkers…glass cannon burst are just suicidal…and you don’t need an aerospace engineering master to understand this…bunkers = they have to stay in one place holding it…so why don’t you stay just out where they can’t go and use ranged stuff? It’s really simple…and yes aoe poison arrow is not reflected by guardians if you aim it on the ground outside the shield

How is SB “skilled” anyway?

Choking Gas alone isn’t enough to kill bunkers, Cluster Bomb AoE is too small to hit through the bubbles.

SB Thief also can problems with ending the fight thorugh Steal-Mace Crack, which is the best thing you can do against a Guardian. Bottom line… you need to use both the burst and the Shortbow.

However… we’re talking about Retaliation, right? You still take Retal damage even from ranged attacks. And Trick Shot is a nice way to suicide in a team fight where every enemy has Retal up.

@Edelweiss:
Because everyone in your team is a glasscannon? And no one has boon-stripping/corruption? No one is running conditions and weakening the bunker?

Retaliation can’t be seen isolated as a boon imo. It does counter certain moves … and you might ask yourself if you want those moves to be more abundant or not … and you want the game to take that direction or not. I think haste-centered glasscannon builds prevents a plethora of builds, and hence I can’t be a fan of them being viable in tpvp.

Maybe I am missing something, but why would you want a build only centered around spamable spike-damage almost oneshotting ppl to be viable in any skillbased game? They even have means to get away with it without dying. You can say the same (almost) about retaliation .. and there is the culprit. The difference is, that making builds centered around retaliation does sacrifice a lot to do so … haste-centered builds doesn’t really do that.

Edelweiss.9815:

You still take Retal damage even from ranged attacks. And Trick Shot is a nice way to suicide in a team fight where every enemy has Retal upt? .

Never fought a team with retaliation up everytime on every people…did you?

Poxxia.1547:

@Edelweiss:
Because everyone in your team is a glasscannon? And no one has boon-stripping/corruption? No one is running conditions and weakening the bunker?

Retaliation can’t be seen isolated as a boon imo. It does counter certain moves … and you might ask yourself if you want those moves to be more abundant or not … and you want the game to take that direction or not. I think haste-centered glasscannon builds prevents a plethora of builds, and hence I can’t be a fan of them being viable in tpvp.

Maybe I am missing something, but why would you want a build only centered around spamable spike-damage almost oneshotting ppl to be viable in any skillbased game? They even have means to get away with it without dying. You can say the same (almost) about retaliation .. and there is the culprit. The difference is, that making builds centered around retaliation does sacrifice a lot to do so … haste-centered builds doesn’t really do that.

Well, what I meant is that Retaliation doesn’t counter D/D builds any better than SB builds. D/D spike builds might even be better in group fights, since you’re only hitting your priority target, not taking damage damage from your own AoE attacks.

Retaliation build doesn’t sacrifice that much tbh. All you need is SoW+Leap of Faith and the 15 Virtues Minor trait.

And speaking of Thieves and D/D builds, I run a 30 SA build with Shadow Rejuvenation and I can outheal the steady Burning and Retaliation damage that a bunker Guardian does to me, wouldn’t want to take on one without this passive healing.

@Edelweiss:
Well .. I can see that being annoying paired with 2H-mastery. But I am not really running GS … 1H-offensive-builds is more me. I still get enough retaliation but not 24/7. I think you guys are talking about different scenarios, but who am I to say
Your last remark is more or less spot on to my point: You make sacrifices in order to be more viable/durable … which is imho a cornerstone in pvp, unless you have a team setting you up.