Guild Wars 2

LOL! So that’s how retaliation works! XD

Actualy thats confusion :p

I lol’d

Btw +1

retaliation destroy many viable builds

Marduh.4603:

retaliation destroy many viable builds

Such as the super cat, BEWARE OF THE SUPER-CAT!

It’s actually very powerful against some multi hit attacks.

Navzar.2938:

It’s actually ridiculous against some multi hit attacks.

Fixed.

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

+1

I could and have written and exposé on why Retaliation is poorly designed, but kitten that gif….too funny.

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

This, very much.

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

Absolutely not.
Retaliation is well designed, I think it is intended to punish low-damage many-hits skill.

First off, multi-hits skills benefits from on-crit traits and sigils. An Unload of a Thief is capable to trigger the Opportunist trait 2 times in a cast, lowering the effective cost of the skill to only 2 initiative, not to talk all the Sigils with low internal cooldown, like Strenght, Frailty and Earth.

Also, multi-hit skills does not suffer from Aegis and dodges that much, as it is way easier to avoid a single big hit than an higher amount of damage spread in a larger time window.

Multi-hit skills have a lower damage variance, making multi hit skills more reliable compared to single big hits, since each single hit as a chance to be a critical hit.

If Retaliation worked like you’re suggesting, high damaging single hits would be less valuable compared to low damaging multiple hits.

sorrow.2364:

Absolutely not.
Retaliation is well designed, I think it is intended to punish low-damage many-hits skill.

It doesn’t just punish them. Some of those are basically harmful just for the user in front of retaliation. Like some multi-hit autoattacks, that are rendered basically unusable. Try using the flamethrower’s autoattack versus opponents with retaliation.
And they can get it while you’re channeling the autoattack anyway, so just seeing if they’ve got it before you attack may not save you.

sorrow.2364:

First off, multi-hits skills benefits from on-crit traits and sigils. An Unload of a Thief is capable to trigger the Opportunist trait 2 times in a cast, lowering the effective cost of the skill to only 2 initiative, not to talk all the Sigils with low internal cooldown, like Strenght, Frailty and Earth.

Regarding the traits, the effect depends on the class. And some of those have got cooldowns as well.
And as you said, those sigils have got cooldowns too. Usually too long to have some decent advantage in comboing them with multi-hit skills.

sorrow.2364:

Also, multi-hit skills does not suffer from Aegis and dodges that much, as it is way easier to avoid a single big hit than an higher amount of damage spread in a larger time window.

Not many classes have got aegis. But while i can concede that dodges are less efficent toward multi-hit attacks, not all of them actually deal high amounts of damage. Not every multi-hit skill is an hundred blades.

sorrow.2364:

Multi-hit skills have a lower damage variance, making multi hit skills more reliable compared to single big hits, since each single hit as a chance to be a critical hit.

And retaliation doesn’t make any distinction about them being critical or not, as it stands now. They can be all crits with 150% critical damage or no crits at all, but what counts is the power of the attacker, and just that.

sorrow.2364:

If Retaliation worked like you’re suggesting, high damaging single hits would be less valuable compared to low damaging multiple hits.

It would deal a percentage of the damage. That means that doing 5k damage in a single hit or kittens with 1k damage each would give back the same exact retaliation damage to the attacker.

There is srsly big issue with multihit skills.

Thread of the month!

Manuhell.2759:

It doesn’t just punish them. Some of those are basically harmful just for the user in front of retaliation. Like some multi-hit autoattacks, that are rendered basically unusable. Try using the flamethrower’s autoattack versus opponents with retaliation.
And they can get it while you’re channeling the autoattack anyway, so just seeing if they’ve got it before you attack may not save you.

That’s the point of punishing multi-hit attacks, making them unusable over certain situations.
As I said, multi-hit attacks are, without the retaliation boon, more convenient compared to single-hit attacks. It is just a counter to them.

Manuhell.2759:

Regarding the traits, the effect depends on the class. And some of those have got cooldowns as well.
And as you said, those sigils have got cooldowns too. Usually too long to have some decent advantage in comboing them with multi-hit skills.

The sigils I’ve listed have no cooldown on paper.
Every profession, also, have access to at least one trait whose effect applies on critical with no cooldown.

Manuhell.2759:

Not many classes have got aegis. But while i can concede that dodges are less efficent toward multi-hit attacks, not all of them actually deal high amounts of damage. Not every multi-hit skill is an hundred blades.

But pretty much every multi-hit attack has a way higher damage potential.

Flame Jet is the only autoattack with burning in it.
Spatial surge deals incredibly high damage to be an autoattack.
Unloads deals ton of damage.
And so on.

Manuhell.2759:

And retaliation doesn’t make any distinction about them being critical or not, as it stands now. They can be all crits with 150% critical damage or no crits at all, but what counts is the power of the attacker, and just that.

What I tried to say is that when you use a channeling skill, your damage will be way closer to the average damage (which is, let’s say, 2k). You’ll deal 2.1k, 1.8k, 2.3k etc.

When you have a single big hit, your damage completely relies on the critical.
That means that you can either deal 1.5k damage (non critical) or 2.5k damage (critical).

Manuhell.2759:

It would deal a percentage of the damage. That means that doing 5k damage in a single hit or kittens with 1k damage each would give back the same exact retaliation damage to the attacker.

That will make retaliation OP, because it will punish ANY TYPE of damage.
Retaliation, as I said, is clearly intended to punish only a single type of damage, which is also the more valuable one, and people who doesn’t care about it.

GW2, its like punching yourself in the face.

Luckily at least the cat is smart and tries to uninstall immediately.

I almost fell off of my chair. Thank you OP

thnx for the laugh hahaha kittens so funny XD

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

It should also be impossible to maintain perma-Retaliation, because “just don’t attack” strategy doesn’t really apply to it in its current state. You gotta kill that bunker this year.

I’ve always thought it was silly it was a flat damage number that scaled with power rather than being a % of the damage.

Flamethrower was the perfect example. Flamethrower is reserved as a utility only weapon, never touching the auto attack because of retaliation. It can easily do 3x the damage that the skill itself does back to you.

YuiRS.8129:

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

It should also be impossible to maintain perma-Retaliation, because “just don’t attack” strategy doesn’t really apply to it in its current state. You gotta kill that bunker this year.

We dont want perma ret, we do however would like a bit of a bump to ret damage.

I’ve seen plenty of threads to from serious to goofy, but rarely Goofy to serious. O.o Retaliation must be a soft spot for some pvpers. I run mm, I don’t like it because my minions take more damage than they hit for, but its nothing traumatic towards my set up, I guess. I would agree with the % based reflect…. Whole hearted in fact, but at the very least for now they need to cap how many reflects can hit you per second if they don’t want to make it % based.

Well the cat kinda deserved it. He’s clearly doing a frenzy/volley on a guardian. Silly cat.

Should be % based dmg.

That looks more like confusion than retaliation yes :P

Retaliation is fine Sorrow pretty much covered it. The visual queue for it is ludicrous and nobody has it perma anymore so stop attacking people with it with fast hitting attacks when its up.

Retaliation is not fine. As stated before, there are those that have near permanent upkeep of retal; and not hitting your opponent is by far the worst strategy you could use to defeat a bunker.

At the same time, retal doesn’t punish single attacks that do a serious amount of damage. Changing it to a % base would bring down the damage on multi-hits and up the damage done on big hits. And changing how often it can be applied would serve to make its use based more around strategic application.

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

It would deal a percentage of the damage. That means that doing 5k damage in a single hit or kittens with 1k damage each would give back the same exact retaliation damage to the attacker.

That will make retaliation OP, because it will punish ANY TYPE of damage.
Retaliation, as I said, is clearly intended to punish only a single type of damage, which is also the more valuable one, and people who doesn’t care about it.

Here’s the thing, retaliation is SUPPOSED to punish any type of damage. That’s why ANY hit sets it off, and what’s asinine about that is that it makes retal both underpowered and overpowered at the same time. For burst damage, it’s worthless because the damage returned isn’t that good. For DPS, it’s OP because it can easily do more damage than the DPS is doing. Therein lies the problem.

The easiest way to fix this would be to make it have a low maximum duration time (like 6 seconds) and then make the retal hit back for a % of the damage dealt to the person with it in for sPvP. Make it so duration can’t get stacked and you’ve fixed it completely.

RyuDragnier.9476:

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

It would deal a percentage of the damage. That means that doing 5k damage in a single hit or kittens with 1k damage each would give back the same exact retaliation damage to the attacker.

That will make retaliation OP, because it will punish ANY TYPE of damage.
Retaliation, as I said, is clearly intended to punish only a single type of damage, which is also the more valuable one, and people who doesn’t care about it.

Here’s the thing, retaliation is SUPPOSED to punish any type of damage. That’s why ANY hit sets it off, and what’s asinine about that is that it makes retal both underpowered and overpowered at the same time. For burst damage, it’s worthless because the damage returned isn’t that good. For DPS, it’s OP because it can easily do more damage than the DPS is doing. Therein lies the problem.

The easiest way to fix this would be to make it have a low maximum duration time (like 6 seconds) and then make the retal hit back for a % of the damage dealt to the person with it in for sPvP. Make it so duration can’t get stacked and you’ve fixed it completely.

Percentual damage is only way how to make it right

Any guardian that has near perma uptime of ret is gimping theirself in many other ways. Those builds have gone away for a while after some patch a while back. I use ret from shouts, thats stand your ground and save yourself for a maximum of 15 seconds in WvW (not sure atm in PvP [maybe 10 seconds]), ofcourse I can use one signet for an additional 3 seconds I believe but cmon, any build that focuses on uptime of ret is only gimping their other strongpoints as a guardian. We dont want perma uptime but we do want it to return more of an equal amount of damage at best; for the small viable uptime it can be up.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Here’s the thing, retaliation is SUPPOSED to punish any type of damage. That’s why ANY hit sets it off, and what’s asinine about that is that it makes retal both underpowered and overpowered at the same time. For burst damage, it’s worthless because the damage returned isn’t that good. For DPS, it’s OP because it can easily do more damage than the DPS is doing. Therein lies the problem.

The easiest way to fix this would be to make it have a low maximum duration time (like 6 seconds) and then make the retal hit back for a % of the damage dealt to the person with it in for sPvP. Make it so duration can’t get stacked and you’ve fixed it completely.

Absolutely not.
Retaliaton is not supposed to punish any type of damage.
It is supposed to punish only sustained damage.

Burst damage is already widely punished by short time blocks, invulnerabilities, damage-cancelling skills, aegis, evades, dodges and so on.

Sustained damage is punished only by retaliation.

sorrow.2364:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Here’s the thing, retaliation is SUPPOSED to punish any type of damage. That’s why ANY hit sets it off, and what’s asinine about that is that it makes retal both underpowered and overpowered at the same time. For burst damage, it’s worthless because the damage returned isn’t that good. For DPS, it’s OP because it can easily do more damage than the DPS is doing. Therein lies the problem.

The easiest way to fix this would be to make it have a low maximum duration time (like 6 seconds) and then make the retal hit back for a % of the damage dealt to the person with it in for sPvP. Make it so duration can’t get stacked and you’ve fixed it completely.

Absolutely not.
Retaliaton is not supposed to punish any type of damage.
It is supposed to punish only sustained damage.

Burst damage is already widely punished by short time blocks, invulnerabilities, damage-cancelling skills, aegis, evades, dodges and so on.

Sustained damage is punished only by retaliation.

Well if you hit with FT for 300 and get back 300 while thief hits you for 5k and get back 300 is something wrong.

Rozbuska.5263:

Well if you hit with FT for 300 and get back 300 while thief hits you for 5k and get back 300 is something wrong.

There isn’t something wrong because you won’t just hit for 300. You will hit for 300 10 times and deal even more damage caused by burning.

Those 5k damage from the thief can be avoided just by an aegis, a single dodge, an invulnerability, a block or whatever you want. Then the thief can’t hit you for 5k for a consistent time window.

Those 10+ hits can’t be just avoided by those skill, that’s why retaliation is there.

i think solely in terms of how retaliation currently works in the game, it’s not bad.

currently, one way of dealing with retaliation is by using high damage single hits or burst attacks. instead of just not doing anything and waiting for their boon to drop (if you can’t effectively boon strip). so you can still apply pressure when your enemies have that boon up. no?

i guess on the other hand, you could argue that multi / fast hitting attacks wouldn’t be as punished by retaliation as it currently is. but like people have mentioned, you can easily waste someone’s blind or single attack block or aegis by using fast multi hitting attacks and still do sustained damage. so they’re both covered in this sense.

sorrow.2364:

Rozbuska.5263:

Well if you hit with FT for 300 and get back 300 while thief hits you for 5k and get back 300 is something wrong.

There isn’t something wrong because you won’t just hit for 300. You will hit for 300 10 times and deal even more damage caused by burning.

Those 5k damage from the thief can be avoided just by an aegis, a single dodge, an invulnerability, a block or whatever you want. Then the thief can’t hit you for 5k for a consistent time window.

Those 10+ hits can’t be just avoided by those skill, that’s why retaliation is there.

You’re making yourself look like a fool, sorry. Aegis gets removed by a backstab and the thief is still in stealth, same with other invuln and blocks. That consistent time window you’re talking about by the way, is 3-4 seconds. During this time, he can still deal quite some nasty damage with auto-attacks. Besides, most burst builds actually have a multitude of hits. Mesmer Blurred Frenzy and mind wrack is 9-10 hits on yourself. Elementalist burst with S/D procs a lot of retaliation. Same with Static Discharge burst engineer who also have quick hits from 3k damage, not one big 10k. Same with a HB warrior…

If I read your posts you’re probably a thief. Almost the only profession that barely gets hurt by retaliation. Or a guardian, that loves his free damage without doing anything.

My proposition is that a player gets 2 hits per second max from retaliation. This way, it’s still the same for burst/1 hit builds and not suicide for players with a multi hit attack.

@akamon: except that Retaliation is way more accessible and is way less unforgiving for the attacking player. The boon uptime is simply too much for it to be balanced in its current state. Either add and ICD, or decrease the uptime. I’d go for option A.

At the moment retaliation is mostly arbitrary – I like the internal cooldown idea, it clearly punishes sustained damage over burst, but doesn’t randomly turn individual skills/classes into the cat.

Confusion used to do something similar to static discharge builds, but it’s been nerfed enough that it doesn’t matter now. I think that has a better chance of being normalised based on casting time given confusion is actually best countered by cleansing/waiting it out.

vinceftw.5086:

You’re making yourself look like a fool, sorry. Aegis gets removed by a backstab and the thief is still in stealth, same with other invuln and blocks.

Then the problem is how stealth works which is too forgiving, not retaliation.

vinceftw.5086:

That consistent time window you’re talking about by the way, is 3-4 seconds. During this time, he can still deal quite some nasty damage with auto-attacks. Besides, most burst builds actually have a multitude of hits. Mesmer Blurred Frenzy and mind wrack is 9-10 hits on yourself. Elementalist burst with S/D procs a lot of retaliation. Same with Static Discharge burst engineer who also have quick hits from 3k damage, not one big 10k. Same with a HB warrior…

So, what’s your point?
Reading this portion of your post, looks like that you want to prove the opposite of what I think you would like to prove: retaliation hits everyone at the same level.

vinceftw.5086:

If I read your posts you’re probably a thief. Almost the only profession that barely gets hurt by retaliation. Or a guardian, that loves his free damage without doing anything.

This just makes you look stupid.

Rozbuska.5263:

Just look how hard it hits… :-P

Haha, a picture indeed says a thousand words.
I’d go as far as to add a thread subtitle ‘GW2 in a nutshell’.

GankSinatra.2653:

GW2, its like punching yourself in the face.

Luckily at least the cat is smart and tries to uninstall immediately.

+1

Some of us simply lack those primeval survival instincts.

sorrow.2364:

vinceftw.5086:

You’re making yourself look like a fool, sorry. Aegis gets removed by a backstab and the thief is still in stealth, same with other invuln and blocks.

Then the problem is how stealth works which is too forgiving, not retaliation.

vinceftw.5086:

That consistent time window you’re talking about by the way, is 3-4 seconds. During this time, he can still deal quite some nasty damage with auto-attacks. Besides, most burst builds actually have a multitude of hits. Mesmer Blurred Frenzy and mind wrack is 9-10 hits on yourself. Elementalist burst with S/D procs a lot of retaliation. Same with Static Discharge burst engineer who also have quick hits from 3k damage, not one big 10k. Same with a HB warrior…

So, what’s your point?
Reading this portion of your post, looks like that you want to prove the opposite of what I think you would like to prove: retaliation hits everyone at the same level.

vinceftw.5086:

If I read your posts you’re probably a thief. Almost the only profession that barely gets hurt by retaliation. Or a guardian, that loves his free damage without doing anything.

This just makes you look stupid.

What my point is that your claim that it doesn’t hurt burst builds as much is false. It hurts most burst builds as much as sustained damage. Since you said it’s designed to counter sustained, you say, that is also not true. Retaliation is ridiculous. Not so much in a 1v1 situation (but even then) but the fact that you can give it to everyone and their mother, in the case of guardians.

vinceftw.5086:

What my point is that your claim that it doesn’t hurt burst builds as much is false. It hurts most burst builds as much as sustained damage. Since you said it’s designed to counter sustained, you say, that is also not true. Retaliation is ridiculous. Not so much in a 1v1 situation (but even then) but the fact that you can give it to everyone and their mother, in the case of guardians.

As burst I intended those builds with a low number of hits but high damaging ones.

Actually, the only skills that allows guardians to give retaliation to allies are three.
“Stand Your Ground”, which is 5s retaliation on a 30s cooldown, Symbol of Wrath, which grants retaliation only on enemies who are standing in it for 5s and Signet of Judgment, which is a 3s retaliation.

Even with all those skills on the same bar, you can’t mantain retaliation for a significant part of the time on you allies, which means that it’s your fault if you didn’t pay attention on the big animations with 300 damage popping on your character’s head and insisted to use your multiple hits AoE skills.

You’re conveniently forgetting to mention that area retaliation is also given by blast finishers in light combo fields.
And guardians have got a lot of light combo fields. And one* 5s cooldown blast finisher with the hammer – mighty blow.

*Edited to reword a part that got accidentally censored.

Seriously they should make it so you can remove or steal boons off your enemies.

Manuhell.2759:

You’re conveniently forgetting to mention that area retaliation is also given by blast finishers in light combo fields.
And guardians have got a lot of light combo fields. And one* 5s cooldown blast finisher with the hammer – mighty blow.

*Edited to reword a part that got accidentally censored.

Every profession is capable to combo finishing into a light field and, also, Guardian isn’t the only profession with light field.

sorrow.2364:

Every profession is capable to combo finishing into a light field and, also, Guardian isn’t the only profession with light field.

Sure, but we were talking about guardians right now, and they are the profession with the major amount of light fields (coupled with a low-cooldown blast finisher like the one mentioned above means being able to spam retaliation around quite a lot).
And obviously everyone can blast those fields for that same effect, thus giving even more retaliation to themselves and allies.
In the case of the flamethrower’s autoattack, it means having up to 30 hits of retaliation per a single autoattack. Two autoattacks done so could kill an engineer without the enemies even attacking him.
While doing negligible damage to the enemies.

Manuhell.2759:

Sure, but we were talking about guardians right now, and they are the profession with the major amount of light fields (coupled with a low-cooldown blast finisher like the one mentioned above means being able to spam retaliation around quite a lot).
And obviously everyone can blast those fields for that same effect, thus giving even more retaliation to themselves and allies.
In the case of the flamethrower’s autoattack, it means having up to 30 hits of retaliation per a single autoattack. Two autoattacks done so could kill an engineer without the enemies even attacking him.
While doing negligible damage to the enemies.

There is no team perma-retaliation in reality.
Even if there was perma retaliation, you still have 4 other skills on your bar (even more in the case of engineer) that you can use without wiping your whole HP bar.

It’s your fault if you use a single skill which is capable to kill you. It’s your fault because you didn’t noticed that the whole enemy team had retaliation on.

sorrow.2364:

Rozbuska.5263:

Well if you hit with FT for 300 and get back 300 while thief hits you for 5k and get back 300 is something wrong.

There isn’t something wrong because you won’t just hit for 300. You will hit for 300 10 times and deal even more damage caused by burning.

Those 5k damage from the thief can be avoided just by an aegis, a single dodge, an invulnerability, a block or whatever you want. Then the thief can’t hit you for 5k for a consistent time window.

Those 10+ hits can’t be just avoided by those skill, that’s why retaliation is there.

Dude, ret doesnt hit you 10 times if you hit me one time…

also, you people tend to think aegis is always up on a guardian…

Virtue of Courage grants aegis every forty seconds..If I get hit with aegis it blocks, Then I have to wait 40 seconds for it to be up again…

Yea, If a get one nice burst shot on me with aegis down, and I do happen to have retaliation up, that 4-7k crit on me will only return 200-300 damage to you…something is wrong.

sorrow.2364:

There is no team perma-retaliation in reality.
Even if there was perma retaliation, you still have 4 other skills on your bar (even more in the case of engineer) that you can use without wiping your whole HP bar.

It’s your fault if you use a single skill which is capable to kill you. It’s your fault because you didn’t noticed that the whole enemy team had retaliation on.

You don’t need perma retaliation. 5 seconds can be enough to make an engineer kill himself. Also, people may get retaliation while we are attacking, or just some enemy could have it – and you can’t just see every single boon on every enemy to do a single attack.
And so no one even tries to use that autoattack, even if it is supposed to be used versus multiple enemies. We are supposed to stay in that kit for prolonged times if we get the juggernaut trait, yet we can’t even use the autoattack cause it is more harmful for us than the enemies.

Manuhell.2759:

You don’t need perma retaliation. 5 seconds can be enough to make an engineer kill himself. Also, people may get retaliation while we are attacking, or just some enemy could have it – and you can’t just see every single boon on every enemy to do a single attack.
And so no one even tries to use that autoattack, even if it is supposed to be used versus multiple enemies. We are supposed to stay in that kit for prolonged times if we get the juggernaut trait, yet we can’t even use the autoattack cause it is more harmful for us than the enemies.

You don’t even need to see the boon on your enemy.
You just need to see the huge icon popping on your character’s head and stop casting Flame Jet.

If you can’t use your autoattack, you can still use all of your other skills in the time window retaliation is up.