Guild Wars 2

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

There is no team perma-retaliation in reality.
Even if there was perma retaliation, you still have 4 other skills on your bar (even more in the case of engineer) that you can use without wiping your whole HP bar.

It’s your fault if you use a single skill which is capable to kill you. It’s your fault because you didn’t noticed that the whole enemy team had retaliation on.

You don’t need perma retaliation. 5 seconds can be enough to make an engineer kill himself. Also, people may get retaliation while we are attacking, or just some enemy could have it – and you can’t just see every single boon on every enemy to do a single attack.
And so no one even tries to use that autoattack, even if it is supposed to be used versus multiple enemies. We are supposed to stay in that kit for prolonged times if we get the juggernaut trait, yet we can’t even use the autoattack cause it is more harmful for us than the enemies.

If any one in GW2 dies from 5 seconds of Retaliation hits, there is something wrong with the player…

You mean to tell the PvP community that 200-300 per hit of retaliation over 5 seconds is going to kill you?

GG

Littlefeather.8623:

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

There is no team perma-retaliation in reality.
Even if there was perma retaliation, you still have 4 other skills on your bar (even more in the case of engineer) that you can use without wiping your whole HP bar.

It’s your fault if you use a single skill which is capable to kill you. It’s your fault because you didn’t noticed that the whole enemy team had retaliation on.

You don’t need perma retaliation. 5 seconds can be enough to make an engineer kill himself. Also, people may get retaliation while we are attacking, or just some enemy could have it – and you can’t just see every single boon on every enemy to do a single attack.
And so no one even tries to use that autoattack, even if it is supposed to be used versus multiple enemies. We are supposed to stay in that kit for prolonged times if we get the juggernaut trait, yet we can’t even use the autoattack cause it is more harmful for us than the enemies.

If any one in GW2 dies from 5 seconds of Retaliation hits, there is something wrong with the player…

You mean to tell the PvP community that 200-300 per hit of retaliation over 5 seconds is going to kill you?

GG

No they’re just keeping it real I can’t recall if Flame jet is 5 targets but even against 3 a full hit would be 10 ticks of retal. PW 25, HB, 24, Firestorm 45. Multiple the hits by 232 or so.
I presume it’s not that most of these guys go and kill themself. More like simply because of the threat of it they just don’t use the skill. Which can be annoying because that skill may be the one of the main purposes of bringing the weapon in the first place, and with it being “soft” CC’d by the threat of retal who is it really helping? Everyone gets that conquest pushes you to clump up more than makes sense to do normally in our head, but some of these just don’t make sense. How many multi-hit attacks have the radius of a Mark? What Meteor Storm? Generally the majority of these are easy to kite, and because they’re multi-hit you reduce the damage by just moving out of the way. Group Retal then says “This is a multi-hit, multi-target attack, perfect for group situations, Heavily refrain from using it in a group or eat 5+k dmg”. Lol wot?

sorrow.2364:

You don’t even need to see the boon on your enemy.
You just need to see the huge icon popping on your character’s head and stop casting Flame Jet.

If you can’t use your autoattack, you can still use all of your other skills in the time window retaliation is up.

Then i’ve already got a good bunch of damage – quite more than the one i’ve dealt to the enemy. And this can happen every time i try attacking with it.

Littlefeather.8623:

If any one in GW2 dies from 5 seconds of Retaliation hits, there is something wrong with the player…

You mean to tell the PvP community that 200-300 per hit of retaliation over 5 seconds is going to kill you?

GG

You can get up to 30 hits with multiple enemies – that means, 30 hits of retaliation per a single autoattack. Let’s even suppose we are talking about a char with the bare minimum power – 916. Retaliation damage per hit is 267,15.
In 5 seconds you can do at least 2 autoattacks, so a max of 60 hits. That alone can give you up to 16029 hp damage just by retaliation. Ok, it won’t kill you alone…but it is still too much for a passive effect, seeing as the damage done by the autoattack is abysmal.
More realistically you will be toward a single enemy, and it will still be harmful anyway – the flamethrower is balanced toward dealing with multiple enemies, so the autoattack is actually quite low versus a single enemy. And you will still get up to 2671 per attack, while doing quite less than that damage – around 600 or 700 total damage versus a light golem, cause i’m testing it just now (i’m still assuming you have no other power than the base one – obviously, increasing your power also directly increases retaliation damage).
As i said, retaliation is far too harsh toward multi-hit autoattacks and relatively useless toward the other types. A percentage of the damage would be quite more fair.

Manuhell.2759:

Then i’ve already got a good bunch of damage – quite more than the one i’ve dealt to the enemy. And this can happen every time i try attacking with it.

You get a bunch of damage only if you are bad enough to not stop the cast once you realize you’re dying from retal. That’s the punishment because you didn’t cared about the enemy boons.

Also, Flame Jet inflict also burning. You did not dealt less damage than retaliation.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Retribution

Retaliation done right.

OGDeadHead.8326:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Retribution

Retaliation done right.

In fact, that skill was completely useless in any format of GW1.

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

You don’t even need to see the boon on your enemy.
You just need to see the huge icon popping on your character’s head and stop casting Flame Jet.

If you can’t use your autoattack, you can still use all of your other skills in the time window retaliation is up.

Then i’ve already got a good bunch of damage – quite more than the one i’ve dealt to the enemy. And this can happen every time i try attacking with it.

Littlefeather.8623:

If any one in GW2 dies from 5 seconds of Retaliation hits, there is something wrong with the player…

You mean to tell the PvP community that 200-300 per hit of retaliation over 5 seconds is going to kill you?

GG

You can get up to 30 hits with multiple enemies – that means, 30 hits of retaliation per a single autoattack. Let’s even suppose we are talking about a char with the bare minimum power – 916. Retaliation damage per hit is 267,15.
In 5 seconds you can do at least 2 autoattacks, so a max of 60 hits. That alone can give you up to 16029 hp damage just by retaliation. Ok, it won’t kill you alone…but it is still too much for a passive effect, seeing as the damage done by the autoattack is abysmal.
More realistically you will be toward a single enemy, and it will still be harmful anyway – the flamethrower is balanced toward dealing with multiple enemies, so the autoattack is actually quite low versus a single enemy. And you will still get up to 2671 per attack, while doing quite less than that damage – around 600 or 700 total damage versus a light golem, cause i’m testing it just now (i’m still assuming you have no other power than the base one – obviously, increasing your power also directly increases retaliation damage).
As i said, retaliation is far too harsh toward multi-hit autoattacks and relatively useless toward the other types. A percentage of the damage would be quite more fair.

Im sorry, Im no mathmatician, but how would one go about getting 30 hits per single auto attack?

Also;

“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”

As a guardian who has been a guardian since Headstart, I have never seen any where near those numbers you pulled out of somewhere, into actual game play….

So you explain to me how one crit hit can hit me one time for 4-8k dmg, and my retaliation while up hits the attacker for 200-300 dmg one time; and how it adds up with the numbers you presented.

sorrow.2364:

You get a bunch of damage only if you are bad enough to not stop the cast once you realize you’re dying from retal. That’s the punishment because you didn’t cared about the enemy boons.

Also, Flame Jet inflict also burning. You did not dealt less damage than retaliation.

Even if i cancel the autoattack, i’ve already got a retaliation hit for every hit i’ve already inflicted.
And flame jet inflicts burning only on the last hit – and on a single target, but i may be wrong about this. So if i cancel it – no burning at all. But even considering that, we’re talking about a single tick of burning every 2.25s.

Littlefeather.8623:

Im sorry, Im no mathmatician, but how would one go about getting 30 hits per single auto attack?

Flame jet does 10 hits in 2.25s, and it can hit a max of 3 targets. So, up to 30 hits.
We were talking about a timeframe of 5 seconds, so around 60 at max if there are three targets. And that autoattack behaves best with multiple targets – be there 1 or 3, i always deal the same damage per each one. So it is quite low versus a single foe, and can be somehow decent versus three…but having more people also raises the chance of them getting retaliation in some way.

Littlefeather.8623:

Also;

“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”

As a guardian who has been a guardian since Headstart, I have never seen any where near those numbers you pulled out of somewhere, into actual game play….

So you explain to me how one crit hit can hit me one time for 4-8k dmg, and my retaliation while up hits the attacker for 200-300 dmg one time; and how it adds up with the numbers you presented.

Cause retaliation punishes per hit, and not per attack; when there are skills with multiple hits, the attacker get punished for every single hit – up to 30 with a single attack in flame jet’s case, cause it can do up to 30 hits. In the example above we were talking about 5 seconds and three opponents, so 60 hits done by flame jet, and thus by retaliation.
Since retaliation doesn’t take in account the damage dealt, but rather the power of the attacker, when someone attacks with skills that do multiple weak hits – like flame jet – you have this bizarre situation where the hits do negligible damage – cause the skill coefficent per hit is pretty low – but retaliation hits back using an higher modifier than the single hits of the skill used, thus the attacker gets an higher damage than the one he dealt.

Retaliation was designed with the intention to counter AOE. It’s been said by the dev’s a couple of times and, if you look at most abilities that grant Retal, it becomes pretty clear. aka They grant Retaliation to allies. There are also many threads about Retal preventing AOE in WvW.

This is completely silly because, it’s so ineffectual at it that no one even realized it’s intended purpose. Instead we’re stuck on it’s primary side affect, and that is punishing multihit abilities. To clue you in, when it comes to the number of hits an ability’s has, it’s design is completely unrelated to Retaliation.

THAT is how poorly designed Retaliation is.

P.S. What about Melee cleave? Hasn’t a melee’er earned their AOE by you clustering and them capitalizing? Retaliation HEAVILY punishes that. Also what about condi-cleave? Isn’t that the primary issue these days?

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

You get a bunch of damage only if you are bad enough to not stop the cast once you realize you’re dying from retal. That’s the punishment because you didn’t cared about the enemy boons.

Also, Flame Jet inflict also burning. You did not dealt less damage than retaliation.

Even if i cancel the autoattack, i’ve already got a retaliation hit for every hit i’ve already inflicted.
And flame jet inflicts burning only on the last hit – and on a single target, but i may be wrong about this. So if i cancel it – no burning at all. But even considering that, we’re talking about a single tick of burning every 2.25s.

Littlefeather.8623:

Im sorry, Im no mathmatician, but how would one go about getting 30 hits per single auto attack?

Flame jet does 10 hits in 2.25s, and it can hit a max of 3 targets. So, up to 30 hits.
We were talking about a timeframe of 5 seconds, so around 60 at max if there are three targets. And that autoattack behaves best with multiple targets – be there 1 or 3, i always deal the same damage per each one. So it is quite low versus a single foe, and can be somehow decent versus three…but having more people also raises the chance of them getting retaliation in some way.

Littlefeather.8623:

Also;

“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”

As a guardian who has been a guardian since Headstart, I have never seen any where near those numbers you pulled out of somewhere, into actual game play….

So you explain to me how one crit hit can hit me one time for 4-8k dmg, and my retaliation while up hits the attacker for 200-300 dmg one time; and how it adds up with the numbers you presented.

Cause retaliation punishes per hit, and not per attack; when there are skills with multiple hits, the attacker get punished for every single hit – up to 30 with a single attack in flame jet’s case, cause it can do up to 30 hits. In the example above we were talking about 5 seconds and three opponents, so 60 hits done by flame jet, and thus by retaliation.
Since retaliation doesn’t take in account the damage dealt, but rather the power of the attacker, when someone attacks with skills that do multiple weak hits – like flame jet – you have this bizarre situation where the hits do negligible damage – cause the skill coefficent per hit is pretty low – but retaliation hits back using an higher modifier than the single hits of the skill used, thus the attacker gets an higher damage than the one he dealt.

Than the:

“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”

Situation is when you are attacking three players at once, and not just one. So those numbers would make sense if divided by three according to your results.

“890 per attack”
“5343 hp dmg just by retaliation”

*I want to point out that the amount of Retaliation dmg done is based on the Power of the Guardian.

When your outputting how much dmg in those five seconds?, while taking into account your HP vs the Guardians HP.

Littlefeather.8623:

Than the:

“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”

Situation is when you are attacking three players at once, and not just one. So those numbers would make sense if divided by three according to your results.

“890 per attack”
“5343 hp dmg just by retaliation”

As i said above, we were talking about a timeframe of 5 seconds before, so 2 autoattacks. You’re mixing together two different calculations. The first was the worst case with the minimum power in that timeframe – 60 hits, thus 2 autoattacks versus 3 targets. That is, 16029 hp with base power.
The second one was the retaliation versus a single target with a single autoattack. Thus 2671.5 (i omitted the .5 before).

Littlefeather.8623:

*I want to point out that the amount of Retaliation dmg done is based on the Power of the Guardian.

I supposed it was based on the power of the attacker, so it appears i was wrong about that. This makes it even worse, though, cause it directly punishes the number of hits without making any distinction about the source. I still think that reflecting a percentage of the damage done would make more sense.

Littlefeather.8623:

When your outputting how much dmg in those five seconds?, while taking into account your HP vs the Guardians HP.

I can’t understand exactly what are you asking, but let’s assume there is a fight where the guardian doesn’t directly attack the engineer but just maintain retaliation for enough time.
As i said, versus a light golem i was able to do around 600/700 with base power, plus burning, with a single autoattack. Let’s assume i do 1100 damage total – more than what i would really do with base stats, with a little bit added to account for the 10% bonus vs. opponent who are burning.
I will still take at least 2671.5 damage (retaliation with base power, 10 hits).
Engineer’s base hp at level 80 is 15082, Guardian’s one is 10805. Assuming that the guardian doesn’t directly attack the engineer but just maintain retaliation for enough time, the engineer will get downed after the sixth attack, just by retaliation alone – so, after around 13.5s. The guardian will be alive with around 4200hp. And i was overestimating the damage dealt, remind that.
The practice would be even worse, anyway. You should have to account about the sustain, regens, the scaling of the autoattack (and it scales quite bad with power) and so on.

So your saying you would kill yourself by auto attacking a guardian with retaliation on, and the guardian just standing there…

Seems legit.

Littlefeather.8623:

So your saying you would kill yourself by auto attacking a guardian with retaliation on, and the guardian just standing there…

Seems legit.

You’re free to test for yourself, but as far as base stats say, the result would be similar to that.
And this is taking in account a single person with retaliation; flame jet hits up to three target. So, in the worse case – that is actually the case where flame jet should be used – divide that time by three. So, around 5 seconds for the engineer to suicide himself.

Littlefeather.8623:

So your saying you would kill yourself by auto attacking a guardian with retaliation on, and the guardian just standing there…

Seems legit.

Your missing the entire point though I don’t think he factors in burning.
Sharp said Retal was foe aoes.
Lettuce be real tea right now. Who thinks Necro Marks or stuff like Phoenix/Dragon, Tooth, engi bombs, get deterred anywhere near say Engi grenades, barrage, flame jet, firestorm, melee cleave in HB, PW, BF, Whirling axe/wrath, etc.
It doesn’t. Retaliation deters more than anything multi-hit aoe, which always deals its damage over an extended time frame and allows you to walk the hell out or break LOS during its time frame.

The things broken, nerf it or rework it.

ensoriki.5789:

Littlefeather.8623:

So your saying you would kill yourself by auto attacking a guardian with retaliation on, and the guardian just standing there…

Seems legit.

Your missing the entire point though I don’t think he factors in burning.
Sharp said Retal was foe aoes.
Lettuce be real tea right now. Who thinks Necro Marks or stuff like Phoenix/Dragon, Tooth, engi bombs, get deterred anywhere near say Engi grenades, barrage, flame jet, firestorm, melee cleave in HB, PW, BF, Whirling axe/wrath, etc.
It doesn’t. Retaliation deters more than anything multi-hit aoe, which always deals its damage over an extended time frame and allows you to walk the hell out or break LOS during its time frame.

The things broken, nerf it or rework it.

Actually i was factoring it in. But since i was talking about base stats, burning deals something like 328 hp.Add 600-700 hp for the base attack itself (the damage i was dealing to a light golem, so i’m overestimating here) and add a little bit for the 10% bonus damage done with flame jet while the opponent is burning (another overestimation, cause it would burn for half of the attack).

OGDeadHead.8326:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Retribution

Retaliation done right.

Retal done better:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Holy_Wrath

Honestly, if they made retal end after x amount of hits, it’d be far less of a problem, especially because it’d require more thought to actually use it when someone is about to spike.

Just insert a 1sec internal cooldown and a 15% damage back to the source and everybody would be happy

Talindra.4958:

Navzar.2938:

It’s actually very powerful against some multi hit attacks.

yes. ele needs retaliation too please.. please give ele light field :P beg

Sure, let’s trade it for your waterfields…Deal?

Using a bomb engi (some bombs tick for durations) I just swap to a diff weapon or wait it out and go into defensive mode while they have retal… Easy enough.