Guild Wars 2

Retaliation should reflect and reduce 15% of all damage, including dots. Not how many times you attack.

Retaliation not only should reduce the damage you take, but reflect it back to the target. (Of course, this means less of it would go to classes like Guardian, and more of it would be added to classes like Warrior/Thief (to make more non-stealth style builds.)

So you want Thief to have all this high burst, easy access to stealth every 4 seconds and when they can be attacked you want them to have access to your version of what Retal would be? Yeah…I’ll pass thanks.

Retaliation should not reflect. It is a trade-off: you allow yourself to be hit in order to punish the one who hits you. Or you ignore it and don’t get hit.

They just need the capability to add retaliation resist to skills as they see fit when they find that a certain skill takes more damage from it than they want it too (flame jet?).

Eg. They find x skill is taking too much damage from retal for what it contributes so they give it 10% retal resistance.

Retaliation should always have been percentile damage, ideally powered by toughness/armor. A retaliation range of 10% (full zerk light armor) to 35 (full toughness bunker) seems balanced to me.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So you want Thief to have all this high burst, easy access to stealth every 4 seconds and when they can be attacked you want them to have access to your version of what Retal would be? Yeah…I’ll pass thanks.

Read what I said, then think a second about what is wrong with what you said.

I certainly agree on retalation reflecting a percentage. Although I’m not really sure what it should scale with, lean towards leaving it on power instead of toughness because I ultimately see it as an offensive ability.

I don’t think anymore counters to burst should exist.. I mean burst is already punishable as is due to most burst manuvers being extremely telegraphed. Maybe retal should tick vs. condition with an ICD but that’s complexity within a complexity :x

Well if it’s a percentage I suppose they could make it reflect condition damage as well, but I feel like the whole draw to conditions was supposed to be that it bypasses defenses.

Retaliation also deals damage as a condition, so they’d have make sure it’s not going to cause a load of bouncing damage back and forth when two people with retaliation fight.

Amir, % based wouldn’t really be a strong counter to burst. For example, if a bs thief were to hit 13k with their 3 hit combo, retal currently deals around 1k back. If it’s a percent, it’s still only be ~2k at 15%. A lot of nice bursts also involve a decently large number of hits anyway, and some use a lot.

Navzar.2938:

Well if it’s a percentage I suppose they could make it reflect condition damage as well, but I feel like the whole draw to conditions was supposed to be that it bypasses defenses.

Retaliation also deals damage as a condition, so they’d have make sure it’s not going to cause a load of bouncing damage back and forth when two people with retaliation fight.

Amir, % based wouldn’t really be a strong counter to burst. For example, if a bs thief were to hit 13k with their 3 hit combo, retal currently deals around 1k back. If it’s a percent, it’s still only be ~2k at 15%. A lot of nice bursts also involve a decently large number of hits anyway, and some use a lot.

Burst attacks are mostly one big hit.

Currently with thieves combo for example, it would only do like 500 retaliation damage because your not hitting them much, just really hard.

Meanwhile, with my Pistol Whip, I don’t do much damage, but I do 5000-6000 damage to myself.

I use flame jet on engineer, I do 10k damage to myself… and don’t do much damage at all.

Its not fair.

On the surface, it may seem “unfair”, but all it really takes is added skill to know when to properly use retaliation and, on the other side, when to use your fast hitting skills.

Certain abilities are “use at your own risk” if you spam them haphazardly in a zerg scenario. You should consider the risk/reward before using each ability.

There is no need to dumb down the game further just because it APPEARS unfair to someone who isn’t skilled enough to know when certain abilities are better to use than others.

You could apply this “unfair” logic to much more severe examples.

For instance…there are plenty of abilities that have long cooldowns and are totally wasted by a blind, dodge, evade, block, out-of-range, etc…Should we dumb things down because it’s “unfair” for one of these many things to put a 90 sec ability on cooldown.

I think some people would be better off playing FPS than MMOs if they are micro-criticizing things like this.

SPESHAL.9106:

On the surface, it may seem “unfair”, but all it really takes is added skill to know when to properly use retaliation and, on the other side, when to use your fast hitting skills.

Certain abilities are “use at your own risk” if you spam them haphazardly in a zerg scenario. You should consider the risk/reward before using each ability.

There is no need to dumb down the game further just because it APPEARS unfair to someone who isn’t skilled enough to know when certain abilities are better to use than others.

You could apply this “unfair” logic to much more severe examples.

For instance…there are plenty of abilities that have long cooldowns and are totally wasted by a blind, dodge, evade, block, out-of-range, etc…Should we dumb things down because it’s “unfair” for one of these many things to put a 90 sec ability on cooldown.

I think some people would be better off playing FPS than MMOs if they are micro-criticizing things like this.

Its the reason none of these weapons are used in serious pvp, not only does most of these weapons do less damage and have little to no effects. (See: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unload for example.), they KILL you because of boons like retaliation.

Nobody uses these types of skills, because of retaliation.

Why can’t retaliation punish every skill equally instead of just a few (and the few are the weaker spells already! There is NO reason to use these abilities…)

5-10% maximum
15 is too much for nobrain passive damage.

Daecollo.9578:

Burst attacks are mostly one big hit.

Currently with thieves combo for example, it would only do like 500 retaliation damage because your not hitting them much, just really hard.

If it’s a guard using a cleric’s amulet, and no additional power elsewhere, it’s 981.
Multi hit bursts are definitely out there, although some aren’t viable because of what we’re discussing.

SPESHAL.9106:

On the surface, it may seem “unfair”, but all it really takes is added skill to know when to properly use retaliation and, on the other side, when to use your fast hitting skills.

Just because you have to know when to use it doesn’t mean it’s balanced. It might be reactionary in some cases, but it’s can completely devastate multi hit attacks with little effort on retalation user’s side. Why should those skills be “use at your own risk” if they don’t have a decent pay off for that risk?
Also, retaliation has a decent amount of uptime on some set ups anyway.

Daecollo.9578:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So you want Thief to have all this high burst, easy access to stealth every 4 seconds and when they can be attacked you want them to have access to your version of what Retal would be? Yeah…I’ll pass thanks.

Read what I said, then think a second about what is wrong with what you said.

Nothing is wrong with what i said. you can say “for more non-stealth builds” as much as you want, that wont happen with thief it is built into to many of the skills and as such this would NOT work.

Atlanis.6597:

Retaliation should not reflect. It is a trade-off: you allow yourself to be hit in order to punish the one who hits you. Or you ignore it and don’t get hit.

You don’t “allow” yourself to get hit. You just do.

Popping Retal is rarely a conscious choice. You just pop it because you can and have such an easy access to it. Or it’s passive/luck based with Chaos armor/Lyssa Runes/traits. And then you get hit because that’s how the game works.

So you want to nerf a skill that hits for about 220 on average. (although what you are proposing could allow it to hit for way more on occassion.) These retaliation whines are getting old. They weren’t as bad when retaliation was actually a very strong skill the first few months of the game.

Daecollo.9578:

Its the reason none of these weapons are used in serious pvp, not only does most of these weapons do less damage and have little to no effects. (See: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unload for example.), they KILL you because of boons like retaliation.

Nobody uses these types of skills, because of retaliation.

Why can’t retaliation punish every skill equally instead of just a few (and the few are the weaker spells already! There is NO reason to use these abilities…)

Just because you…

1. Don’t know how to identify boons on other characters
2. Don’t know the professions that are likely to have retaliation
3. Don’t know situations where it is risky to use your fast hitting skills
4. Don’t know that VERY few builds have high retaliation uptime and those that do require sacrificing trait, weapon, and other choices to do so.

Please don’t use hyperbole to lump everyone into your primitive view and skill-set.

The irony is that this is similar to the complaints people previously had about weakness. They change it and now it is more powerful than before.

Take a moment and think about if they make the “fairness” changes suggested….You may be able to spam your fast hitting ability without thinking anymore, but I guarantee you would be taking MORE total damage each match from retaliation.

I also guarantee you would be the first person on the forum whining about “retaliation is OP”…“it’s negating all my burst”…“thieves are not viable”…etc…etc.

SPESHAL.9106:

Daecollo.9578:

Its the reason none of these weapons are used in serious pvp, not only does most of these weapons do less damage and have little to no effects. (See: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unload for example.), they KILL you because of boons like retaliation.

Nobody uses these types of skills, because of retaliation.

Why can’t retaliation punish every skill equally instead of just a few (and the few are the weaker spells already! There is NO reason to use these abilities…)

Just because you…

1. Don’t know how to identify boons on other characters
2. Don’t know the professions that are likely to have retaliation
3. Don’t know situations where it is risky to use your fast hitting skills
4. Don’t know that VERY few builds have high retaliation uptime and those that do require sacrificing trait, weapon, and other choices to do so.

Please don’t use hyperbole to lump everyone into your primitive view and skill-set.

The irony is that this is similar to the complaints people previously had about weakness. They change it and now it is more powerful than before.

Take a moment and think about if they make the “fairness” changes suggested….You may be able to spam your fast hitting ability without thinking anymore, but I guarantee you would be taking MORE total damage each match from retaliation.

I also guarantee you would be the first person on the forum whining about “retaliation is OP”…“it’s negating all my burst”…“thieves are not viable”…etc…etc.

How to put words in someone’s mouth.

1. Don’t assume I know how to play when you don’t.
2. I’ve been min/maxing for a very long time.
3. You never said I was wrong, just attacked me.
4. Rude comments can be taken elsewhere.

So people will finally be using fast hitting abilities instead of completely ignoring them like they do now… Good change! I like seeing other skills used because they are way to punishing and with no effect.

What about the tactical aspect of the game? You have to do something in order to win. Working around other peoples strengths and so on. I think it’s fine.

If someone has perma retaliation I would agree that it’s too much (obviously) – If only briefly and occasionally you just have to adapt and learn to use fast hitting abilities when there is a window and who better suited than a thief?

You can disengage at your leisure most of the time and wait for the retaliation boon to vanish in order to strike. That is what thieves are about to some degree, right? Striking at the opportune moment. What about stealing the boon? S/D and P/P?

The thief is easy enough to play as it is. No need to make the profession lobotomy-proof.
And engineers? A VERY strong profession. No way they need special treatment.

Kwll.1468:

So you want to nerf a skill that hits for about 220 on average. (although what you are proposing could allow it to hit for way more on occassion.) These retaliation whines are getting old. They weren’t as bad when retaliation was actually a very strong skill the first few months of the game.

The changes most people want for retaliation would only nerf it in the instances when it would do ridiculous amounts of damage, like flame jet which is 5 ticks a second per target. A change to percentage based damage might actually be buffing the average damage dealt by retaliation. If it were a change by adding an internal cd per target instead, then it’d get a buff like frost aura did.

I think Protection should have an internal cool-down as well. Tbh.
Decreases damage by 33% for one attack every second.

Protection is already percentile based, which is what you where asking for retaliation to have. All that would do is buff unfairly multi hit attacks 1v1, and strongly severely protection in team fights.

Rather than wanting protection to change, it’s a good model for how retaliation should function.

edited to make it more on topic

I think professions should only be able to perform one attack per second. That and making stealthed characters move half the speed they do now. Easy to hear someone running around in a leather suit next to you, eh? EH?

The topic is derailing I’m afraid.