Guild Wars 2

I’ve played S/D for about a year now across multiple builds (2/0/6/0/6) (2/6/0/0/6) and lastly (2/0/0/6/6) over the past year. I and a few others were some of the few thieves to break from the D/P meta (PVP) and P/D meta (WVW) to use S/D, but over the past few months (following the buff of strength runes and the use of air fire sigils in combination) S/D worked its way into the PVP meta and became a very strong and in the right hands overpowered, but why do you think this is?
Sword dagger has only been nerfed since release this includes: the infiltrators return range reduction, removal of its stunbreak, dancing daggers damage nerfed into oblivion, and larcenous strikes boon strip cut down by 2, ( the one exception being the introduction of larcenous strike ) but only now in its weakest state has it has become this taboo weapon set that everybody complains about?

The reason isn’t because sword dagger is over powered, but rather because of air fire sigils, strength runes, and its synergy with the acrobatics traitline — for those of you who dont know when traited you can get a stack of might per dodge, and with strength runes, boon strips, and the amount of dodging you can do with acrobatics you can get an insane amount of might and do ridiculous damage and have great sustainability without having to trait anything into a power, precision / ferocity trait line. The weapon set sword dagger should not be the thing that is getting addressed, it should be the acrobatics traitline (feline grace, power of inertia, fluid strikes) as well as the damage done by air and fire sigils.

The issue with this unjustified nerf, and the reason I believe it to be weapon set breaking is that against players who know how flanking strike functions all that they need to do is dodge or blind or block flanking strike. this highly decreases sword daggers burst potential as it can be very difficult to land a flanking strike and costs far too much initiative to risk having be avoided, and when you factor in the trickery damage modifier that gives 1% more damage for every initiative you have this makes using flanking a poor gamble. But the biggest problem with the way it is presently, is that sword dagger can no longer truley utilize the unblockable function of larcenous strike as flanking will no longer proc on block. For example, an engineer activates his tool kit block, previously we could use flanking to gain larcenous strike and hit him through his block but now if flanking strike is used on the block it will be rendered useless and no larcenous strike shall be awarded.

Another huge issue is our ability to steal aegis.
Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities. And with renewed focus being changed into a meditation the amount of aegis and blinds they can dish out has been greatly increased, they will no longer be feasible to defeat as a thief even with sword dagger (as we can no longer precast larcenous — flanking strike would proc the aegis and require us to do another flanking strike to finally gain a larcenous strike thats 9 initiative to do btw).

To clarify what would need to happen for us to utilize the unblockable ability of larcenous strike is a flanking strike would have to land and then have an aegis or block come up within the next 4 seconds ( presuming we havent already tried to use larcenous strike ) for this to happen realistically two things would need to happen
1. The opponent to not understand how sword dagger functions
2. The thief would need to anticipate within four seconds of when a block or aegis would be used and land a flanking strike within that time period.
Am I crazy or does that not seem realistic?

If your still with me lets think about what we can do to fix sword dagger.
1. Revert it back to the way it was before, back to the state where it is actually fills it role of killing boon or block heavy classes ( elementalists, guardians, engies)
2. Leave the way flanking functions the way it is but increase the time you can use larcenous for after getting a successful hit, since it takes nothing short of a miracle to land now. increase boon strip back to 2 and allow it to proc on blocks so that you can still actually use it to hit through things like toolkit shield, shelter, arcane shield ect.
either of these changes i believe ( with the nerf of the acrobatics traitline ) would put sword dagger back into its place of being viable but not overpowered.

Thanks for reading — Katsumi Arisu

P.S. You may not agree with my opinions but trolls if you could stay under your bridge I would highly appreciate it. Also this was previously posted in the thief section of the forums if you want to read the response it got there.

Nobody is going to read all that crap unless you split it, format and make readable.

Also -1 for wannabe-anime name.

For those of you who have trouble finding the original posts with responses, here it is:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/S-D-no-longer-viable/first#post4401792
Take a look, and offer your feedback on the change.

Rym.1469:

Nobody is going to read all that crap unless you split it, format and make readable.

Also -1 for wannabe-anime name.

I did politely ask that trolls stay under their bridges

pushes aside the mountains of dead mesmer corpses at the hands of s/d thieves

Hello,

I main mesmer, and S/D has made it hell for a good while now. Don’t get me wrong, I dislike all of you equally as a class, but acro S/D was the worst. I briefly learned thief and played it for my team, and when I did it was S/D acro. I was quite surprised to hear that instead of nerfing the main culprit (acrobatics), they were nerfing the weapon set instead.

I would not want GS or staff for mesmer to be gutted, and I am sorry your weaponset was hurt. But S/D as it used to be was plain awful ,and it felt dirty to play, and felt even worse to play against. Unfortunately the problems are still there, acro is still way too many dodges, and fire and air are still bs. Hopefully they eventually see that and make some decent changes.

But I would like to tip my fedora to good guy Marvin and agree to what he said. Basically yall are going to have to adapt! Last time I watched sizer, he still claimed S/D was op. Maybe it it still is, and you just have to play it differently?

I for one welcome back our d/p overlords, please have mercy on my back.

-Dusk

S/D acro thief had an advantageous matchup with dps medi guard pre-patch.

Might be worth considering how absurd that is too.

Was it over nerfed though? Probably.

Phaeton.9582:

S/D acro thief had an advantageous matchup with dps medi guard pre-patch.

Might be worth considering how absurd that is too.

Because as we all know, the key metric for measuring balance in a team-fight centered game is how one specific spec of one specific class matches up against another specific spec of another specific class.

That’s why Anet killed Bunkers completely a year ago – Can you imagine how broken a class that could survive a 2 v 1 for an extended time would be in this game balanced around 1 v 1 matchups?

Insane.

evilapprentice.6379:

Phaeton.9582:

S/D acro thief had an advantageous matchup with dps medi guard pre-patch.

Might be worth considering how absurd that is too.

Because as we all know, the key metric for measuring balance in a team-fight centered game is how one specific spec of one specific class matches up against another specific spec of another specific class.

That’s why Anet killed Bunkers completely a year ago – Can you imagine how broken a class that could survive a 2 v 1 for an extended time would be in this game balanced around 1 v 1 matchups?

Insane.

FYI the OP commented on its current matchup with medi guard specifically.

But thanks for your feedback. Team-fight centric or otherwise, particular matchups are very important in conquest. This is a stock forum response to say ‘the game isn’t balanced around 1v1s’. Of course it isn’t. But are you telling me 1v1s don’t happen in conquest? Or that the matchups don’t factor into the fielding of a comp?

S/D is still viable at high end pvp you have to timing your FS more often to be successful and not spam it.

S/D lost a bit of its 1vs1 potential but apart from that it is still a pretty good set if you know what you’re doing.

Phaeton.9582:

evilapprentice.6379:

Phaeton.9582:

S/D acro thief had an advantageous matchup with dps medi guard pre-patch.

Might be worth considering how absurd that is too.

Because as we all know, the key metric for measuring balance in a team-fight centered game is how one specific spec of one specific class matches up against another specific spec of another specific class.

That’s why Anet killed Bunkers completely a year ago – Can you imagine how broken a class that could survive a 2 v 1 for an extended time would be in this game balanced around 1 v 1 matchups?

Insane.

FYI the OP commented on its current matchup with medi guard specifically.

But thanks for your feedback. Team-fight centric or otherwise, particular matchups are very important in conquest. This is a stock forum response to say ‘the game isn’t balanced around 1v1s’. Of course it isn’t. But are you telling me 1v1s don’t happen in conquest? Or that the matchups don’t factor into the fielding of a comp?

Of course 1v1’s happen – they just can’t be the basis for balance considerations. Your original quote is just a lot of fluff because from a balance perspective, spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem) – that happens all the time. Asking us to “consider how absurd that is” is silly, because it’s not absurd, some specs are strong against other specs.

evilapprentice.6379:

spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem)

Anonymouse.4760:

Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities.

I think you have your answer friend

Phaeton.9582:

evilapprentice.6379:

spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem)

Anonymouse.4760:

Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities.

I think you have your answer friend

Well then I do apologize – my bad.

Though I don’t necessarily agree that a spec with alot of blinds and blocks is necessarily strong against one with good single condition mitigation and a strong unblockable attack. I can see how a medi guard would be strong against D/P, but not S/D.

PhDusk.2590:

pushes aside the mountains of dead mesmer corpses at the hands of s/d thieves

Hello,

I main mesmer, and S/D has made it hell for a good while now. Don’t get me wrong, I dislike all of you equally as a class, but acro S/D was the worst. I briefly learned thief and played it for my team, and when I did it was S/D acro. I was quite surprised to hear that instead of nerfing the main culprit (acrobatics), they were nerfing the weapon set instead.

I would not want GS or staff for mesmer to be gutted, and I am sorry your weaponset was hurt. But S/D as it used to be was plain awful ,and it felt dirty to play, and felt even worse to play against. Unfortunately the problems are still there, acro is still way too many dodges, and fire and air are still bs. Hopefully they eventually see that and make some decent changes.

But I would like to tip my fedora to good guy Marvin and agree to what he said. Basically yall are going to have to adapt! Last time I watched sizer, he still claimed S/D was op. Maybe it it still is, and you just have to play it differently?

I for one welcome back our d/p overlords, please have mercy on my back.

-Dusk

It seems that you didn’t really read my post at all, You start off strong and talk about the main culprit (being acrobatics, air fire sigils, strength runes act) but then spiral off into a negative rant about the weapon set and this unrefined QQ is the reason why sword dagger was nerfed in the first place.

Regarding the play style adjustment comment, Marvin and I dueled for about an hour in which time i managed to take only a few rounds off his celestial rifle engineer and only when he dropped the trait ‘accelerant packed turrets’ which seems to be his basis for thinking that S/D is still viable if the you play it differently. This being said cloak and dagger daze spam is not the way that S/D was meant to be played nor is it effective. S/D’s main burst and utility comes from larcenous’s unblockable boon strip (which is what used to make it good against things like guardians and elementalists). I’m starting to sound like a broken record here but if you can’t utilize the main source of DPS and utility half the time you might as well play a different set. I’d like to continue this discussion after i have some coffee :P

evilapprentice.6379:

Phaeton.9582:

evilapprentice.6379:

spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem)

Anonymouse.4760:

Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities.

I think you have your answer friend

Well then I do apologize – my bad.

Though I don’t necessarily agree that a spec with alot of blinds and blocks is necessarily strong against one with good single condition mitigation and a strong unblockable attack. I can see how a medi guard would be strong against D/P, but not S/D.

True, or at least it used to be, without being able to precast larcenous anymore we have no real counter the amount of aegis guardians have. previously we could precast flanking and attempt to get close for larcenous to take the aegis which could be blinded or evaded, but this at least gave us a chance at getting the upper hand on the opener against the medi guard but now we are left to sit there and attempt to proc it with a dancing dagger (very easily dodged) or move in close and take heavy burst damage while trying to auto it away ( easily blinded ). and regarding shelter, well as i said before unless we can land a flanking within 4 seconds of when they use their heal, might as well just give up trying to interrupt that with a basilisk larcenous. If any of you reading this have attempted to fight a competent medi guard on s/d post patch I’m sure you’ve seen first hand how a weapon set that used to be good for dealing with them is now hard countered by them.

Anonymouse.4760:

evilapprentice.6379:

Phaeton.9582:

evilapprentice.6379:

spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem)

Anonymouse.4760:

Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities.

I think you have your answer friend

Well then I do apologize – my bad.

Though I don’t necessarily agree that a spec with alot of blinds and blocks is necessarily strong against one with good single condition mitigation and a strong unblockable attack. I can see how a medi guard would be strong against D/P, but not S/D.

True, or at least it used to be, without being able to precast larcenous anymore we have no real counter the amount of aegis guardians have. previously we could precast flanking and attempt to get close for larcenous to take the aegis which could be blinded or evaded, but this at least gave us a chance at getting the upper hand on the opener against the medi guard but now we are left to sit there and attempt to proc it with a dancing dagger (very easily dodged) or move in close and take heavy burst damage while trying to auto it away ( easily blinded ). and regarding shelter, well as i said before unless we can land a flanking within 4 seconds of when they use their heal, might as well just give up trying to interrupt that with a basilisk larcenous. If any of you reading this have attempted to fight a competent medi guard on s/d post patch I’m sure you’ve seen first hand how a weapon set that used to be good for dealing with them is now hard countered by them.

You can still use steal, it steals aegis before it hits. I didn’t play too much after patch but from the duels I had with s/d thieves so far I have to say that they are pretty much freekill for dps guard now if the thief doesn’t hit like every 4s daze thingy.

But eh… you can’t really say that thief is getting hard countered by anything since they can disengage 24/7 and pick their matchups. If a thief isn’t stupid he’s not gonna engage me when I have my cooldowns up.

Keksmuffin.1450:

Anonymouse.4760:

evilapprentice.6379:

Phaeton.9582:

evilapprentice.6379:

spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem)

Anonymouse.4760:

Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities.

I think you have your answer friend

Well then I do apologize – my bad.

Though I don’t necessarily agree that a spec with alot of blinds and blocks is necessarily strong against one with good single condition mitigation and a strong unblockable attack. I can see how a medi guard would be strong against D/P, but not S/D.

True, or at least it used to be, without being able to precast larcenous anymore we have no real counter the amount of aegis guardians have. previously we could precast flanking and attempt to get close for larcenous to take the aegis which could be blinded or evaded, but this at least gave us a chance at getting the upper hand on the opener against the medi guard but now we are left to sit there and attempt to proc it with a dancing dagger (very easily dodged) or move in close and take heavy burst damage while trying to auto it away ( easily blinded ). and regarding shelter, well as i said before unless we can land a flanking within 4 seconds of when they use their heal, might as well just give up trying to interrupt that with a basilisk larcenous. If any of you reading this have attempted to fight a competent medi guard on s/d post patch I’m sure you’ve seen first hand how a weapon set that used to be good for dealing with them is now hard countered by them.

You can still use steal, it steals aegis before it hits. I didn’t play too much after patch but from the duels I had with s/d thieves so far I have to say that they are pretty much freekill for dps guard now if the thief doesn’t hit like every 4s daze thingy.

Yeah you can still steal it with the bountiful theft trait, BUT you would know better than I do that you get way more aegis’s than we can steal, not to mention the fact that bountiful theft doesn’t even steal the full duration as larcenous did.

Keksmuffin.1450:

Anonymouse.4760:

evilapprentice.6379:

Phaeton.9582:

evilapprentice.6379:

spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem)

Anonymouse.4760:

Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities.

I think you have your answer friend

Well then I do apologize – my bad.

Though I don’t necessarily agree that a spec with alot of blinds and blocks is necessarily strong against one with good single condition mitigation and a strong unblockable attack. I can see how a medi guard would be strong against D/P, but not S/D.

True, or at least it used to be, without being able to precast larcenous anymore we have no real counter the amount of aegis guardians have. previously we could precast flanking and attempt to get close for larcenous to take the aegis which could be blinded or evaded, but this at least gave us a chance at getting the upper hand on the opener against the medi guard but now we are left to sit there and attempt to proc it with a dancing dagger (very easily dodged) or move in close and take heavy burst damage while trying to auto it away ( easily blinded ). and regarding shelter, well as i said before unless we can land a flanking within 4 seconds of when they use their heal, might as well just give up trying to interrupt that with a basilisk larcenous. If any of you reading this have attempted to fight a competent medi guard on s/d post patch I’m sure you’ve seen first hand how a weapon set that used to be good for dealing with them is now hard countered by them.

You can still use steal, it steals aegis before it hits. I didn’t play too much after patch but from the duels I had with s/d thieves so far I have to say that they are pretty much freekill for dps guard now if the thief doesn’t hit like every 4s daze thingy.

2 second daze actually, but yea- I’ve found I need to incorporate a lot more CnD → daze into your playstyle to be effective on S/D. also I rather pop aegis with dancing dagger or SB so I can be guaranteed to steal his kitten retaliation, thats what really kills me every time. Idk tho I get wrecked by med guards, our natural counter

Cam Ron.4170:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Anonymouse.4760:

evilapprentice.6379:

Phaeton.9582:

evilapprentice.6379:

spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem)

Anonymouse.4760:

Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities.

I think you have your answer friend

Well then I do apologize – my bad.

Though I don’t necessarily agree that a spec with alot of blinds and blocks is necessarily strong against one with good single condition mitigation and a strong unblockable attack. I can see how a medi guard would be strong against D/P, but not S/D.

True, or at least it used to be, without being able to precast larcenous anymore we have no real counter the amount of aegis guardians have. previously we could precast flanking and attempt to get close for larcenous to take the aegis which could be blinded or evaded, but this at least gave us a chance at getting the upper hand on the opener against the medi guard but now we are left to sit there and attempt to proc it with a dancing dagger (very easily dodged) or move in close and take heavy burst damage while trying to auto it away ( easily blinded ). and regarding shelter, well as i said before unless we can land a flanking within 4 seconds of when they use their heal, might as well just give up trying to interrupt that with a basilisk larcenous. If any of you reading this have attempted to fight a competent medi guard on s/d post patch I’m sure you’ve seen first hand how a weapon set that used to be good for dealing with them is now hard countered by them.

You can still use steal, it steals aegis before it hits. I didn’t play too much after patch but from the duels I had with s/d thieves so far I have to say that they are pretty much freekill for dps guard now if the thief doesn’t hit like every 4s daze thingy.

2 second daze actually, but yea- I’ve found I need to incorporate a lot more CnD -> daze into your playstyle to be effective on S/D. also I rather pop aegis with dancing dagger or SB so I can be guaranteed to steal his kitten retaliation, thats what really kills me every time. Idk tho I get wrecked by med guards, our natural counter

I’m talking about the ability that thieves steal from guardians.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mace_Head_Crack

4 seconds :<

Keksmuffin.1450:

Cam Ron.4170:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Anonymouse.4760:

evilapprentice.6379:

Phaeton.9582:

evilapprentice.6379:

spec X having an advantage over Spec Y has no value (with some exceptions of course – if spec Y was designed to counter Spec X and it doesnt, well, then you have a problem)

Anonymouse.4760:

Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities.

I think you have your answer friend

Well then I do apologize – my bad.

Though I don’t necessarily agree that a spec with alot of blinds and blocks is necessarily strong against one with good single condition mitigation and a strong unblockable attack. I can see how a medi guard would be strong against D/P, but not S/D.

True, or at least it used to be, without being able to precast larcenous anymore we have no real counter the amount of aegis guardians have. previously we could precast flanking and attempt to get close for larcenous to take the aegis which could be blinded or evaded, but this at least gave us a chance at getting the upper hand on the opener against the medi guard but now we are left to sit there and attempt to proc it with a dancing dagger (very easily dodged) or move in close and take heavy burst damage while trying to auto it away ( easily blinded ). and regarding shelter, well as i said before unless we can land a flanking within 4 seconds of when they use their heal, might as well just give up trying to interrupt that with a basilisk larcenous. If any of you reading this have attempted to fight a competent medi guard on s/d post patch I’m sure you’ve seen first hand how a weapon set that used to be good for dealing with them is now hard countered by them.

You can still use steal, it steals aegis before it hits. I didn’t play too much after patch but from the duels I had with s/d thieves so far I have to say that they are pretty much freekill for dps guard now if the thief doesn’t hit like every 4s daze thingy.

2 second daze actually, but yea- I’ve found I need to incorporate a lot more CnD -> daze into your playstyle to be effective on S/D. also I rather pop aegis with dancing dagger or SB so I can be guaranteed to steal his kitten retaliation, thats what really kills me every time. Idk tho I get wrecked by med guards, our natural counter

I’m talking about the ability that thieves steal from guardians.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mace_Head_Crack

4 seconds :<

Holy moly, never realized it was 4 seconds! that’s massive. It seems really hard to land (cast time feels longer than the advertised 1/4second) but I am pretty careless with it, gotta make sure I land that now. Next duel I get into with guard im popping on mesmer runes. 5.5 sec daze inc!

Acro was never the problem. if it was S/d would of been meta from day 1. the problem is a combination of Air/Fire + runes of strength, Sleight of hand + B/v and the player base itself.,
B/v on it’s own isn’t that bad ( Imo it’s cheesy) Soh should of NEVER been put into this game period. it lacks an acceptable counter.
Since s/d does low base damage and you can’t effectivly min/max in CvC fire/air are almost necessary since you will lack the dps to kill most sustain builds (though it is possible to “cheese them” to death by simply soh there heals + b/v.)
As for the player base. A lot of people Refuse to learn the mechanics of how a thief works. so when they see Fs they think “oh he’s invincible until he stops moving” the dodge animation is 3/4 seconds long (look for the dip in the spin if you don’t want to count) Roll for inititive is also 3/4 seconds long. Sb #3 is 1/2 seconds long. the dodge animation ends before the skill animation on every single one of these. (having a brain fart on withdraw atm i think its 1/2 seconds though)

s/d is really easy to counter it has been since the added the cd to Inf strike did noone wonder why every single s/d thieve was using this rotation Attack-roll out/return – repeat?

Anyway you other thieves should take a step back and listen there are no qq threads about thieves this is the FIRST time since launch. you should really enjoy the blissful silence cause in 2-3 weeks the Evade spam qq is going to start again.

(forgive the grammer /spelling run on sentences )im just waking up and figured i would bang this out right quick)

Highlie.7641:

Acro was never the problem. if it was S/d would of been meta from day 1. the problem is a combination of Air/Fire + runes of strength, Sleight of hand + B/v and the player base itself.,
B/v on it’s own isn’t that bad ( Imo it’s cheesy) Soh should of NEVER been put into this game period. it lacks an acceptable counter.
Since s/d does low base damage and you can’t effectivly min/max in CvC fire/air are almost necessary since you will lack the dps to kill most sustain builds (though it is possible to “cheese them” to death by simply soh there heals + b/v.)
As for the player base. A lot of people Refuse to learn the mechanics of how a thief works. so when they see Fs they think “oh he’s invincible until he stops moving” the dodge animation is 3/4 seconds long (look for the dip in the spin if you don’t want to count) Roll for inititive is also 3/4 seconds long. Sb #3 is 1/2 seconds long. the dodge animation ends before the skill animation on every single one of these. (having a brain fart on withdraw atm i think its 1/2 seconds though)

s/d is really easy to counter it has been since the added the cd to Inf strike did noone wonder why every single s/d thieve was using this rotation Attack-roll out/return – repeat?

Anyway you other thieves should take a step back and listen there are no qq threads about thieves this is the FIRST time since launch. you should really enjoy the blissful silence cause in 2-3 weeks the Evade spam qq is going to start again.

(forgive the grammer /spelling run on sentences )im just waking up and figured i would bang this out right quick)

I totally agree with your take on evade frames & vulnerability however you must still be somewhat asleep as i state very early on that i believe the issue is acrobatics SYNERGY with strength runes and air fire. I very clearly spell out the issue I suggest rereading it after you have some coffee.

Anonymouse.4760:

Rym.1469:

Nobody is going to read all that crap unless you split it, format and make readable.

Also -1 for wannabe-anime name.

I did politely ask that trolls stay under their bridges

Better please the trolls, or there will be no bridge .

oh no, no more 3 spam to win.

Stand The Wall.6987:

oh no, no more 3 spam to win.

clearly has never touched s/d

btw i did ask nicely for silly trolls to stay away ^^;

I’m glad S/D is dead. Personally, I wish signet of agility died too. It can still be used, just not in the same overpowered fashion. Given, it was never more overpowered than engi’s or necros after the infiltrators nerf, but it still shouldn’t have existed. Nor should Current engi’s or necros. People screamed “We can’t sustain!” and Anet decided to just make it so they have so much sustain and damage, they can just peel for themselves with no sacrifices needed, it’s ridiculous.

Steb.2571:

I’m glad S/D is dead. Personally, I wish signet of agility died too. It can still be used, just not in the same overpowered fashion. Given, it was never more overpowered than engi’s or necros after the infiltrators nerf, but it still shouldn’t have existed. Nor should Current engi’s or necros. People screamed “We can’t sustain!” and Anet decided to just make it so they have so much sustain and damage, they can just peel for themselves with no sacrifices needed, it’s ridiculous.

I agree, D/P should be the only viable weapon-set for PvP thieves, S/d had no place there. Variety is stupid and ruining GW2.

also, signet of agility is just as good as ever so I don’t understand that comment

Steb.2571:

I’m glad S/D is dead. Personally, I wish signet of agility died too. It can still be used, just not in the same overpowered fashion. Given, it was never more overpowered than engi’s or necros after the infiltrators nerf, but it still shouldn’t have existed. Nor should Current engi’s or necros. People screamed “We can’t sustain!” and Anet decided to just make it so they have so much sustain and damage, they can just peel for themselves with no sacrifices needed, it’s ridiculous.

Because having laughable burst on a glass spec’d character who’s class has poor sustain, no protection, no stability, no immune skills or blocks, and has to dodge literally 80% of the attacks thrown at him just to survive the fight long enough to win isn’t a sacrifice.

You guys misunderstand, it’s dead in the sense that everyone and their mom can play it with braindead skill level. It’s not dead in the practical sense, it can still be run, but it’s more in line with what it should be. You should have to hit a flip skill to actually flip it. If anything, it allows you to trolololol evade spam your kitten in the opposite direction if your under fire. People are just mad that braindead spec’s get nerfed.

Signet of agility is overpowered when paired with acrobatics, and it makes it impossible to accurately count dodges. It allows for very little counter-play because pretty much any and all predictability is gone, and you just have to play entirely reactionary. That’s dumb, and this just aids in killing that. Agility needs to follow suit, I would rather it turn into either a heavier condi clear, or a disable of some kind to allow for cleaner setup and burst landing.

Acrobatics alone is fine, but when you combine feline, with vigor, with signet, it gets a bit kittened. DD needs a buff, PP needs a buff, Celestial and Engi’s / eles / necro / warrior need a nerf, etc,etc,etc. There’s too much sustain at the moment, and it makes thieves less valuable by contrast, but having kittened kitten on thief doesn’t help solve the problem, it just adds to the joke that is Spvp balance right now.

S/D is Viable, it’s just not broken…..It just feels weak because of how insanely overpowered many meta build / classes are right now, and gives a really skewed perception.

Steb.2571:

You guys misunderstand, it’s dead in the sense that everyone and their mom can play it with braindead skill level. It’s not dead in the practical sense, it can still be run, but it’s more in line with what it should be. You should have to hit a flip skill to actually flip it. If anything, it allows you to trolololol evade spam your kitten in the opposite direction if your under fire. People are just mad that braindead spec’s get nerfed.

Signet of agility is overpowered when paired with acrobatics, and it makes it impossible to accurately count dodges. It allows for very little counter-play because pretty much any and all predictability is gone, and you just have to play entirely reactionary. That’s dumb, and this just aids in killing that. Agility needs to follow suit, I would rather it turn into either a heavier condi clear, or a disable of some kind to allow for cleaner setup and burst landing.

Acrobatics alone is fine, but when you combine feline, with vigor, with signet, it gets a bit kittened. DD needs a buff, PP needs a buff, Celestial and Engi’s / eles / necro / warrior need a nerf, etc,etc,etc. There’s too much sustain at the moment, and it makes thieves less valuable by contrast, but having kittened kitten on thief doesn’t help solve the problem, it just adds to the joke that is Spvp balance right now.

You sound like a D/P main that thought S/D was stronger, which I don’t believe was the case. Before S/D was the only thief set that could compete, but now D/P seems to be the only viable set, and you’re happy for that? why?

also, since feline grace restores a lot of endurance for free anyway, the Signet’s active actually does less for an acro build than any other build, so lol.

Cam Ron.4170:

Steb.2571:

You guys misunderstand, it’s dead in the sense that everyone and their mom can play it with braindead skill level. It’s not dead in the practical sense, it can still be run, but it’s more in line with what it should be. You should have to hit a flip skill to actually flip it. If anything, it allows you to trolololol evade spam your kitten in the opposite direction if your under fire. People are just mad that braindead spec’s get nerfed.

Signet of agility is overpowered when paired with acrobatics, and it makes it impossible to accurately count dodges. It allows for very little counter-play because pretty much any and all predictability is gone, and you just have to play entirely reactionary. That’s dumb, and this just aids in killing that. Agility needs to follow suit, I would rather it turn into either a heavier condi clear, or a disable of some kind to allow for cleaner setup and burst landing.

Acrobatics alone is fine, but when you combine feline, with vigor, with signet, it gets a bit kittened. DD needs a buff, PP needs a buff, Celestial and Engi’s / eles / necro / warrior need a nerf, etc,etc,etc. There’s too much sustain at the moment, and it makes thieves less valuable by contrast, but having kittened kitten on thief doesn’t help solve the problem, it just adds to the joke that is Spvp balance right now.

You sound like a D/P main that mistakenly thought S/D was stronger

You can perceive me that way if it makes you feel better, Personally, I consider myself a D/D guy, it’s just not viable, and most likely won’t be for a very long time. I look at balance in a very fundamental way, and just because a broken build got nerfed, I don’t cry about how it’s suddenly unviable (real talk: It’s not). It’s just not to the broken state it was. Balanced, and “Viable in the Meta” are two completely, and separate arguments. And understanding their difference helps us understand balance better. Do I think S/D can be played in the meta right now? Eh, probably not, it might be, but the play-style will be different, and it wont be as effective as it was before. But is it balanced now? Yes.

Now, that said, do I think you can play it in the current meta? Probably not? Why, is it underpowered now? No, kitten like engies, necros, braindead warriors, and ele, not to mention celestial are broken as balls, and this often skews most players perception of balance because the view is quite narrow and limited, with simple and small changes to many classes, balance could easily be made significantly better, and that includes even unused weapon sets like DD and PP for thief.

And you misunderstand, I care about balance as a grand picture, not a narrow minded view that is build-centric. Yes, I’m sad we lost another way to stay viable as a thief. Yes, I’m happy that something broken got fixed, even at the thieves expense. Because when you care about balance as a whole, that means taking hits to your own class, to make the game a better experience.

Instead of being sad that something broken on your class got toned down into a balanced state, you should be advocating the things that are completely out of line (healing signet, healing turret, incendiary powder, terror, celestial, etc) get toned down back into line so that everything becomes more playable as a whole.

Steb.2571:

Cam Ron.4170:

Steb.2571:

You guys misunderstand, it’s dead in the sense that everyone and their mom can play it with braindead skill level. It’s not dead in the practical sense, it can still be run, but it’s more in line with what it should be. You should have to hit a flip skill to actually flip it. If anything, it allows you to trolololol evade spam your kitten in the opposite direction if your under fire. People are just mad that braindead spec’s get nerfed.

Signet of agility is overpowered when paired with acrobatics, and it makes it impossible to accurately count dodges. It allows for very little counter-play because pretty much any and all predictability is gone, and you just have to play entirely reactionary. That’s dumb, and this just aids in killing that. Agility needs to follow suit, I would rather it turn into either a heavier condi clear, or a disable of some kind to allow for cleaner setup and burst landing.

Acrobatics alone is fine, but when you combine feline, with vigor, with signet, it gets a bit kittened. DD needs a buff, PP needs a buff, Celestial and Engi’s / eles / necro / warrior need a nerf, etc,etc,etc. There’s too much sustain at the moment, and it makes thieves less valuable by contrast, but having kittened kitten on thief doesn’t help solve the problem, it just adds to the joke that is Spvp balance right now.

You sound like a D/P main that mistakenly thought S/D was stronger

You can perceive me that way if it makes you feel better, Personally, I consider myself a D/D guy, it’s just not viable, and most likely won’t be for a very long time. I look at balance in a very fundamental way, and just because a broken build got nerfed, I don’t cry about how it’s suddenly unviable (real talk: It’s not). It’s just not to the broken state it was. Balanced, and “Viable in the Meta” are two completely, and separate arguments. And understanding their difference helps us understand balance better. Do I think S/D can be played in the meta right now? Eh, probably not, it might be, but the play-style will be different, and it wont be as effective as it was before. But is it balanced now? Yes.

Now, that said, do I think you can play it in the current meta? Probably not? Why, is it underpowered now? No, kitten like engies, necros, braindead warriors, and ele, not to mention celestial are broken as balls, and this often skews most players perception of balance because the view is quite narrow and limited, with simple and small changes to many classes, balance could easily be made significantly better, and that includes even unused weapon sets like DD and PP for thief.

And you misunderstand, I care about balance as a grand picture, not a narrow minded view that is build-centric. Yes, I’m sad we lost another way to stay viable as a thief. Yes, I’m happy that something broken got fixed, even at the thieves expense. Because when you care about balance as a whole, that means taking hits to your own class, to make the game a better experience.

Instead of being sad that something broken on your class got toned down into a balanced state, you should be advocating the things that are completely out of line (healing signet, healing turret, incendiary powder, terror, celestial, etc) get toned down back into line so that everything becomes more playable as a whole.

And what you fail to understand is that the issue isn’t within Sword Dagger itself, it’s the acrobatics traitline. The reason i call it an unjustified nerf is that the weapon set wasn’t the issue and instead was strength runes, air/fire sigils and its synergy with the acrobatics traitline. please actually read my post before making assumptions. I don’t want my thread to turn into a battle of whether acro s/d was op or not, I simply want the weapon set to be fixed, and the traitline and accessories to be nerfed.

Anonymouse.4760:

Steb.2571:

Cam Ron.4170:

Steb.2571:

You guys misunderstand, it’s dead in the sense that everyone and their mom can play it with braindead skill level. It’s not dead in the practical sense, it can still be run, but it’s more in line with what it should be. You should have to hit a flip skill to actually flip it. If anything, it allows you to trolololol evade spam your kitten in the opposite direction if your under fire. People are just mad that braindead spec’s get nerfed.

Signet of agility is overpowered when paired with acrobatics, and it makes it impossible to accurately count dodges. It allows for very little counter-play because pretty much any and all predictability is gone, and you just have to play entirely reactionary. That’s dumb, and this just aids in killing that. Agility needs to follow suit, I would rather it turn into either a heavier condi clear, or a disable of some kind to allow for cleaner setup and burst landing.

Acrobatics alone is fine, but when you combine feline, with vigor, with signet, it gets a bit kittened. DD needs a buff, PP needs a buff, Celestial and Engi’s / eles / necro / warrior need a nerf, etc,etc,etc. There’s too much sustain at the moment, and it makes thieves less valuable by contrast, but having kittened kitten on thief doesn’t help solve the problem, it just adds to the joke that is Spvp balance right now.

You sound like a D/P main that mistakenly thought S/D was stronger

You can perceive me that way if it makes you feel better, Personally, I consider myself a D/D guy, it’s just not viable, and most likely won’t be for a very long time. I look at balance in a very fundamental way, and just because a broken build got nerfed, I don’t cry about how it’s suddenly unviable (real talk: It’s not). It’s just not to the broken state it was. Balanced, and “Viable in the Meta” are two completely, and separate arguments. And understanding their difference helps us understand balance better. Do I think S/D can be played in the meta right now? Eh, probably not, it might be, but the play-style will be different, and it wont be as effective as it was before. But is it balanced now? Yes.

Now, that said, do I think you can play it in the current meta? Probably not? Why, is it underpowered now? No, kitten like engies, necros, braindead warriors, and ele, not to mention celestial are broken as balls, and this often skews most players perception of balance because the view is quite narrow and limited, with simple and small changes to many classes, balance could easily be made significantly better, and that includes even unused weapon sets like DD and PP for thief.

And you misunderstand, I care about balance as a grand picture, not a narrow minded view that is build-centric. Yes, I’m sad we lost another way to stay viable as a thief. Yes, I’m happy that something broken got fixed, even at the thieves expense. Because when you care about balance as a whole, that means taking hits to your own class, to make the game a better experience.

Instead of being sad that something broken on your class got toned down into a balanced state, you should be advocating the things that are completely out of line (healing signet, healing turret, incendiary powder, terror, celestial, etc) get toned down back into line so that everything becomes more playable as a whole.

And what you fail to understand is that the issue isn’t within Sword Dagger itself, it’s the acrobatics traitline. The reason i call it an unjustified nerf is that the weapon set wasn’t the issue and instead was strength runes, air/fire sigils and its synergy with the acrobatics traitline. please actually read my post before making assumptions. I don’t want my thread to turn into a battle of whether acro s/d was op or not, I simply want the weapon set to be fixed, and the traitline and accessories to be nerfed.

You didn’t have to land your skill to get it to turn over into its follow up skill. That’s moronic, and allowed it to be used in a way that it wasn’t originally intended. Tough kittens, it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set, it just doesn’t get the burst D/P gets, and has a different play-style, and unique set of tools.

It was overpowered, it got nerfed, Deal with it.

Acro is an entirely seperate beast itself, I have no problem with acro, I have an issue with signet of agility.

So first you say it’s not viable in the meta and now

“it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set”

Sizer said today on stream he was considering swapping to d/p as he felt s/d just wasn’t strong enough anymore, and pretty much every big name s/d thief agrees with him — If the fact that these thieves who have been running it for ages myself included are willing to give up their favorite weapon set doesn’t prove that it isn’t viable than I don’t know what will.
And don’t get me wrong, I agree that Acro S/D was overpowered, I just want it to be viable with 60206 or 26006 which it is not

Anonymouse.4760:

So first you say it’s not viable in the meta and now

“it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set”

He has never said S/D isn’t viable, I think he’s trying to say that the weapon set was a bit over the top and now it’s balanced but not unviable.

Anonymouse.4760:

So first you say it’s not viable in the meta and now

“it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set”

Again, let me repeat myself, “Viable in the meta” and “Balanced” are two separate entities. It’s too early to tell if it’s viable for the current meta without being overpowered, but the point is that it’s now balanced.

Anonymouse.4760:

Regarding the play style adjustment comment, Marvin and I dueled for about an hour in which time i managed to take only a few rounds off his celestial rifle engineer and only when he dropped the trait ‘accelerant packed turrets’ which seems to be his basis for thinking that S/D is still viable if the you play it differently. This being said cloak and dagger daze spam is not the way that S/D was meant to be played nor is it effective. S/D’s main burst and utility comes from larcenous’s unblockable boon strip (which is what used to make it good against things like guardians and elementalists). I’m starting to sound like a broken record here but if you can’t utilize the main source of DPS and utility half the time you might as well play a different set. I’d like to continue this discussion after i have some coffee :P

The only thing about accelerant turrets is the extra knockback, but normally I don’t like using it, because a engineer shouldn’t really be blasting turret too much unless it’s for a team heal/other blast/desperate heal. This wasn’t the basis for me saying that S/Dis viable still. Of course things get nerfed, and people adapt, and by adapting you have to play differently even if it means using different tactics to put out burst. Like D/P people think it’s all stealth, but how much initiative do we actually use to set up everything? Backstab is only used for spike/burst to finish someone off, but not the main burst. You have other tools such as Shadowshot which is used for pressure damage that leads up into backstab combos. Along with Shortbow, you have other ways to deal damage. This goes for S/D sure CnD steal into Tactical Strike isn’t effective, but thats a way to land a daze and sneak in a Flanking strike. You also need to remember that Sword is one of the strongest auto attack cleave weapons that can hit 2-3k still, compared to other profession auto attacks. There are other ways to put out damage.

Anonymouse.4760:

2. Leave the way flanking functions the way it is but increase the time you can use larcenous for after getting a successful hit, since it takes nothing short of a miracle to land now. increase boon strip back to 2 and allow it to proc on blocks so that you can still actually use it to hit through things like toolkit shield, shelter, arcane shield ect.
either of these changes i believe ( with the nerf of the acrobatics traitline ) would put sword dagger back into its place of being viable but not overpowered.

This change is what would be fine, except when you hit a block/aegis the Larcenous should require an extra initiative compared to hitting a flanking strike that isn’t blocked. Larcenous duration after Flanking Strike if blocked should be shorter than landing Flanking Strike through a non block. Like if you land Flanking through a block, the larcenous duration is really short, if you actually get it off it is a bit longer to compensate. They can bring back the boon strip back to 2, but leave the dodge/blind maybe to compensate for atleast some counterplay as for say Mesmers/Other Professions that get countered by S/D, while being able to still have a chance to hit through blocks when fighting a meditation guard. Because if they revert everything without counterplay, then Mesmers/Any Vulnerable Zerk Class will just get trained and melt. Increasing Larcenous initiative to 2, but being able to proc it without hitting a target won’t change the issue.

So yeah, Flanking should be able to hit through block/aegis, but should still not turn into Larcenous if dodge/blinded/or doesn’t hit a target. Duration of Larcenous should be affected if it gets blocked or not. 2 boon strip can come back with these changes.

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

So first you say it’s not viable in the meta and now

“it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set”

He has never said S/D isn’t viable, I think he’s trying to say that the weapon set was a bit over the top and now it’s balanced but not unviable.

Here you go, you must have missed it

Balanced, and “Viable in the Meta” are two completely, and separate arguments. And understanding their difference helps us understand balance better. Do I think S/D can be played in the meta right now? Eh, probably not, it might be, but the play-style will be different, and it wont be as effective as it was before. But is it balanced now? Yes.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

Anonymouse.4760:

Regarding the play style adjustment comment, Marvin and I dueled for about an hour in which time i managed to take only a few rounds off his celestial rifle engineer and only when he dropped the trait ‘accelerant packed turrets’ which seems to be his basis for thinking that S/D is still viable if the you play it differently. This being said cloak and dagger daze spam is not the way that S/D was meant to be played nor is it effective. S/D’s main burst and utility comes from larcenous’s unblockable boon strip (which is what used to make it good against things like guardians and elementalists). I’m starting to sound like a broken record here but if you can’t utilize the main source of DPS and utility half the time you might as well play a different set. I’d like to continue this discussion after i have some coffee :P

The only thing about accelerant turrets is the extra knockback, but normally I don’t like using it, because a engineer shouldn’t really be blasting turret too much unless it’s for a team heal/other blast/desperate heal. This wasn’t the basis for me saying that S/Dis viable still. Of course things get nerfed, and people adapt, and by adapting you have to play differently even if it means using different tactics to put out burst. Like D/P people think it’s all stealth, but how much initiative do we actually use to set up everything? Backstab is only used for spike/burst to finish someone off, but not the main burst. You have other tools such as Shadowshot which is used for pressure damage that leads up into backstab combos. Along with Shortbow, you have other ways to deal damage. This goes for S/D sure CnD steal into Tactical Strike isn’t effective, but thats a way to land a daze and sneak in a Flanking strike. You also need to remember that Sword is one of the strongest auto attack cleave weapons that can hit 2-3k still, compared to other profession auto attacks. There are other ways to put out damage.

Anonymouse.4760:

2. Leave the way flanking functions the way it is but increase the time you can use larcenous for after getting a successful hit, since it takes nothing short of a miracle to land now. increase boon strip back to 2 and allow it to proc on blocks so that you can still actually use it to hit through things like toolkit shield, shelter, arcane shield ect.
either of these changes i believe ( with the nerf of the acrobatics traitline ) would put sword dagger back into its place of being viable but not overpowered.

This change is what would be fine, except when you hit a block/aegis the Larcenous should require an extra initiative compared to hitting a flanking strike that isn’t blocked. Larcenous duration after Flanking Strike if blocked should be shorter than landing Flanking Strike through a non block. Like if you land Flanking through a block, the larcenous duration is really short, if you actually get it off it is a bit longer to compensate. They can bring back the boon strip back to 2, but leave the dodge/blind maybe to compensate for atleast some counterplay as for say Mesmers/Other Professions that get countered by S/D, while being able to still have a chance to hit through blocks when fighting a meditation guard. Because if they revert everything without counterplay, then Mesmers/Any Vulnerable Zerk Class will just get trained and melt. Increasing Larcenous initiative to 2, but being able to proc it without hitting a target won’t change the issue.

So yeah, Flanking should be able to hit through block/aegis, but should still not turn into Larcenous if dodge/blinded/or doesn’t hit a target. Duration of Larcenous should be affected if it gets blocked or not. 2 boon strip can come back with these changes.

I’m getting a little sick of trying to 1vX here on the forums as it seems only people who’ve played s/d understand that its not as simple as “using cnd more” or “autoattacking more” in any case I and anybody else who’s actually mained the weapon set knows better. Which i guess means there no hope for sword dagger since clearly no dev actually plays it

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

So first you say it’s not viable in the meta and now

“it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set”

He has never said S/D isn’t viable, I think he’s trying to say that the weapon set was a bit over the top and now it’s balanced but not unviable.

Here you go, you must have missed it

Balanced, and “Viable in the Meta” are two completely, and separate arguments. And understanding their difference helps us understand balance better. Do I think S/D can be played in the meta right now? Eh, probably not, it might be, but the play-style will be different, and it wont be as effective as it was before. But is it balanced now? Yes.

Can you bold the text where he said it? Because I can’t see it, all I see is “probably not, it might be”.

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

So first you say it’s not viable in the meta and now

“it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set”

He has never said S/D isn’t viable, I think he’s trying to say that the weapon set was a bit over the top and now it’s balanced but not unviable.

Here you go, you must have missed it

Balanced, and “Viable in the Meta” are two completely, and separate arguments. And understanding their difference helps us understand balance better. Do I think S/D can be played in the meta right now? Eh, probably not, it might be, but the play-style will be different, and it wont be as effective as it was before. But is it balanced now? Yes.

Can you bold the text where he said it? Because I can’t see it, all I see is “probably not, it might be”.

You’re correct, It shows I’m conflicted on it. But again, weather or not it’s viable in the current meta /= balance.

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

So first you say it’s not viable in the meta and now

“it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set”

He has never said S/D isn’t viable, I think he’s trying to say that the weapon set was a bit over the top and now it’s balanced but not unviable.

Here you go, you must have missed it

Balanced, and “Viable in the Meta” are two completely, and separate arguments. And understanding their difference helps us understand balance better. Do I think S/D can be played in the meta right now? Eh, probably not, it might be, but the play-style will be different, and it wont be as effective as it was before. But is it balanced now? Yes.

Can you bold the text where he said it? Because I can’t see it, all I see is “probably not, it might be”.

Uhm probably not means he doesn’t think that it is, but isn’t sure because he thinks its too soon to tell. in any case he’s saying he doesn’t think its viable.

come on bud, it’s not rocket science

clear enough for you?

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

Elxdark.9702:

Anonymouse.4760:

So first you say it’s not viable in the meta and now

“it still can teleport in and out of combat with ease, cleave something fierce, it has an immob, and an evasion skill, with the ability to boon-strip and peirce through blocks, access to stealth, a daze, and a nice 100% combo finisher ranged attack that is stronger than sb at cleaving targets at the cost of initiative. It’s still a fantastic weapon set”

He has never said S/D isn’t viable, I think he’s trying to say that the weapon set was a bit over the top and now it’s balanced but not unviable.

Here you go, you must have missed it

Balanced, and “Viable in the Meta” are two completely, and separate arguments. And understanding their difference helps us understand balance better. Do I think S/D can be played in the meta right now? Eh, probably not, it might be, but the play-style will be different, and it wont be as effective as it was before. But is it balanced now? Yes.

Can you bold the text where he said it? Because I can’t see it, all I see is “probably not, it might be”.

Uhm probably not means he doesn’t think that it is, but isn’t sure because he thinks its too soon to tell. in any case he’s saying he doesn’t think its viable.

come on bud, it’s not rocket science

clear enough for you?

nop but I get your point, its fine.

Anonymouse.4760:

I’m getting a little sick of trying to 1vX here on the forums as it seems only people who’ve played s/d understand that its not as simple as “using cnd more” or “autoattacking more” in any case I and anybody else who’s actually mained the weapon set knows better. Which i guess means there no hope for sword dagger since clearly no dev actually plays it

Kat, if you don’t agree with the proposed change about Flanking Strike being able to proc Larcenous through block/aegis, while having the counter play of dodging it/blind/not hitting anything not letting it turn into Larcenous…then yeah idk. This is why I had you post your thoughts in this section. Do you see the different responses, between this and the one in the Thief Section? There is more open thoughts from people who multiclass. and used different arguments on why it was changed, instead of the other section of reverting, and agreeing because their main weapon set got nerfed. I used MAIN S/D, and I don’t want it to rot, but if you and all the other S/D Mains can’t accept that it got a bit more balanced, but not trying to adapt then idk. Sizer said he might try re rolling d/p, but it’s not even a week. He’ll adapt, same with everyone who decides to stick to it. This change sure made S/D harder, but it was done as a Balance for all. Edit: I agree they could revert S/D changes, but the main reason why balance is out of place is due to builds. Maybe changing how Acro/Trickery works

All in serious, it really is A-net for not testing things, which is also why we don’t have too many features even after 2 years.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

Anonymouse.4760:

I’m getting a little sick of trying to 1vX here on the forums as it seems only people who’ve played s/d understand that its not as simple as “using cnd more” or “autoattacking more” in any case I and anybody else who’s actually mained the weapon set knows better. Which i guess means there no hope for sword dagger since clearly no dev actually plays it

Kat, if you don’t agree with the proposed change about Flanking Strike being able to proc Larcenous through block/aegis, while having the counter play of dodging it/blind/not hitting anything not letting it turn into Larcenous…then yeah idk. This is why I had you post your thoughts in this section. Do you see the different responses, between this and the one in the Thief Section? There is more open thoughts from people who multiclass. and used different arguments on why it was changed, instead of the other section of reverting, and agreeing because their main weapon set got nerfed. I used MAIN S/D, and I don’t want it to rot, but if you and all the other S/D Mains can’t accept that it got a bit more balanced, but not trying to adapt then idk. Sizer said he might try re rolling d/p, but it’s not even a week. He’ll adapt, same with everyone who decides to stick to it. This change sure made S/D harder, but it was done as a Balance for all. Edit: I agree they could revert S/D changes, but the main reason why balance is out of place is due to builds. Maybe changing how Acro/Trickery works

All in serious, it really is A-net for not testing things, which is also why we don’t have too many features even after 2 years.

We can continue this conversation when you try to play s/d thief later today

Steb.2571:

You guys misunderstand, it’s dead in the sense that everyone and their mom can play it with braindead skill level. It’s not dead in the practical sense, it can still be run, but it’s more in line with what it should be. You should have to hit a flip skill to actually flip it. If anything, it allows you to trolololol evade spam your kitten in the opposite direction if your under fire. People are just mad that braindead spec’s get nerfed.

Signet of agility is overpowered when paired with acrobatics, and it makes it impossible to accurately count dodges. It allows for very little counter-play because pretty much any and all predictability is gone, and you just have to play entirely reactionary. That’s dumb, and this just aids in killing that. Agility needs to follow suit, I would rather it turn into either a heavier condi clear, or a disable of some kind to allow for cleaner setup and burst landing.

Acrobatics alone is fine, but when you combine feline, with vigor, with signet, it gets a bit kittened. DD needs a buff, PP needs a buff, Celestial and Engi’s / eles / necro / warrior need a nerf, etc,etc,etc. There’s too much sustain at the moment, and it makes thieves less valuable by contrast, but having kittened kitten on thief doesn’t help solve the problem, it just adds to the joke that is Spvp balance right now.

S/D is Viable, it’s just not broken…..It just feels weak because of how insanely overpowered many meta build / classes are right now, and gives a really skewed perception.

[last part highlighted for emphasis]

Though I think, as braindead as S/D is (which, to be fair, is partially because two of the five skills on the weapon set are absolutely horrible and useless for 98% of situations), it still requires a marginal amount of more thought than turret engis/scepter mesmers and, from what I’ve been hearing lately, power rangers.

Arganthium.5638:

Steb.2571:

You guys misunderstand, it’s dead in the sense that everyone and their mom can play it with braindead skill level. It’s not dead in the practical sense, it can still be run, but it’s more in line with what it should be. You should have to hit a flip skill to actually flip it. If anything, it allows you to trolololol evade spam your kitten in the opposite direction if your under fire. People are just mad that braindead spec’s get nerfed.

Signet of agility is overpowered when paired with acrobatics, and it makes it impossible to accurately count dodges. It allows for very little counter-play because pretty much any and all predictability is gone, and you just have to play entirely reactionary. That’s dumb, and this just aids in killing that. Agility needs to follow suit, I would rather it turn into either a heavier condi clear, or a disable of some kind to allow for cleaner setup and burst landing.

Acrobatics alone is fine, but when you combine feline, with vigor, with signet, it gets a bit kittened. DD needs a buff, PP needs a buff, Celestial and Engi’s / eles / necro / warrior need a nerf, etc,etc,etc. There’s too much sustain at the moment, and it makes thieves less valuable by contrast, but having kittened kitten on thief doesn’t help solve the problem, it just adds to the joke that is Spvp balance right now.

S/D is Viable, it’s just not broken…..It just feels weak because of how insanely overpowered many meta build / classes are right now, and gives a really skewed perception.

[last part highlighted for emphasis]

Though I think, as braindead as S/D is (which, to be fair, is partially because two of the five skills on the weapon set are absolutely horrible and useless for 98% of situations), it still requires a marginal amount of more thought than turret engis/scepter mesmers and, from what I’ve been hearing lately, power rangers.

Back under your bridge troll! back!!

if you are unable to land your flanking it’s your problem…

Archaon.9524:

if you are unable to land your flanking it’s your problem…

Have you tried playing s/d since the patch? if not i suggest trying it out — flanking strike doesnt function properly as it used to, we’re not talking about the nerf here we are talking about flanking strikes pathing. On top of this the skill feels spammy and if it blocked blinded or evaded, it may cast an additional 1-2 times, at least two or three times a game it completely depletes my initiative bar and I am unable to cancel it.

Anonymouse.4760:

Stand The Wall.6987:

oh no, no more 3 spam to win.

clearly has never touched s/d

btw i did ask nicely for silly trolls to stay away ^^;

its the troof.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Anonymouse.4760:

Stand The Wall.6987:

oh no, no more 3 spam to win.

clearly has never touched s/d

btw i did ask nicely for silly trolls to stay away ^^;

its the troof.

u kno it