Guild Wars 2

skyd.9678:

People don’t understand that mesmer and ele are not supposed to be the best 1v1 class, because they can do many thins that thief doesn’t.

Why should one zerker be better at 1v1 than any other one, its all about personal preferences. From a tPvP point of view I would argue that a thief should actually do less damage than 1v1 zerker builds of other classes because hes is a better roamer and has the best escape.

I personaly think mesmer is still the king of 1v1 because illusions have a almost endless high skill ceiling.

Mayama.1854:

skyd.9678:

People don’t understand that mesmer and ele are not supposed to be the best 1v1 class, because they can do many thins that thief doesn’t.

Why should one zerker be better at 1v1 than any other one, its all about personal preferences. From a tPvP point of view I would argue that a thief should actually do less damage than 1v1 zerker builds of other classes because hes is a better roamer and has the best escape.

I personaly think mesmer is still the king of 1v1 because illusions have a almost endless high skill ceiling.

Thief no more 1v1 king? Well, his roaming is no more usefull. If you can’t win a fight in 1v1 it’s useless roaming because enemy team can easily counter you leaving a party member on point. Imo the thief have to be the best class in 1v1 because it’s the only role he has in a game; can’t join a teamfight, can’t support party, can’t heal, can’t tank (evades 8 times in row i’ts useless, you need to evade when you are under pressure, not stocasticaly, and this is hard to do when focused by 2 or more people, you can just disengage and run away). Mesmer, elementalist, necromancer has multiple role in a teamfight that thief don’t have, this is the only reason because thief can’t be downgrade to a simple 1v1 class but need to be THE BEST, otherwhile simply remove class from pvp because it’ll become kitten.

Darnis.4056:

Sizer.2654:

Nerfing air/fire sigils would actually buff sd thiefs lol atm these sigils give u guys extra burst to pressure us , hf trying to kill us without them

Sizer knows for a fact that if Sigils were nerfed the sustain/burst damage on Thief would take a big hit.
Don’t let his cool demeanor fool you.

Do Sigils effect both parties? Yes, does it effect the Thief who is evading most of the damage in between his own proc CD’s more so ? Yes it does.

Do The 7k Larcenous strikes hurt? Yes they do, Do they hurt more with a 4k(double) proc and 3k steal? Yes.

I often see these kinda of numbers like 7K thrown out for thieves.
Trust me, no thief in pvp is hitting anything for 7k with larcenous striker, EVER.

It’s a 1.5K base damage attack after a few dodges on a build that has a 60% crit rate.

I don’t like the idea of nerfing the S/D thief too much, at least not it’s spiking ability, it’s literally the only thing that helps it take out PROPER bunkers. On a proper tank you can hit for a maximum burst of approximately;

(basi venom) .75-1.5K CnD + 1.5K Steal (basi applied) + 1K Air + 1K Fire + 1K-2K Auto + 1K-2K Auto

Total – minimum = 6.25K
Total – maximum = 9K
Crit rate = 60%. Steal, Fire and Air damage doesn’t crit. 9K – 2.5K = 6.5K. 6.5X.6 = 3.9K

3.9K + 2.5K = 6.4K average max burst.

Fire and Air make up 2K of this burst. That’s about 30% of our entire damage output in an optimal environment. Any super hard nerf to these sigils will simply kill the build, there is no other way to look at it.
After a successful basi application you can do….wow…2 auto attacks on an enemy before the basi ends. You can choose to go Sword 3 > Sword 3 after basi instead of AA but the larcenous strike is iffy and the timing is very tight. On average it doesn’t make too much of a difference.
The thief can also charge a basi venom and chain a dagger 4 into the mix for another .5K-1K damage OR it can fire a shortbow shot and switch before proccing the CnD+Steal. This combo adds +2K or so to the combo.

So the max burst is about 8.4K if the stars align, with a normal burst of about 6.4K every 21 seconds and a lot of smaller bursts inbetween.
It is nowhere near as bad as people make out. If you play something very tanky, the thief will take a seriously long time to kill you no matter what. If you play something super glassy, then yeah you are gonna get rekt.
Tough, that’s the way this build is.

S/D cannot carry teams (unless opponents are extremely bad) it cannot really hold points and it cannot sustain under heavy pressure for more than about 5 seconds. It has crap all condi removal (sword 2 > 2 is super predictable and initiative heavy, the signet is rubbish as well) and gets absolutely rekt by any condi tank worth his salt.
What it can do very well is augment your teams superiority and offer better cover and quick bursts across the map than most other builds at the moment. It is great at coming into ensuing fights and laying down burst to turn the tide.

It’s also the only properly fun thief build to play at the moment that is actually viable.
PLZ don’t nerf (much)

Anymore than a 5% nerf to the entire build and i think it would die off quickly.

Static.9841:

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

How about, No?

Warriors and Guardians are meant to be tanky melee classes, that is how they are designed. However a zerker amulet Guardian surviving through “tons of damage” ? Even a zerker amulet warrior without cooldowns dies extremely fast to both direct damage and condition damage.

Warriors and Guardians have 0 access to stealth and 0 access to defensive shadowsteps. But I guess you think that doesn’t make thief hard to kill right? I guess you think immobilize having next to 0 effect vs s/d thief because of withdraw and flanking strike dodge while immobed doesn’t make s/d thief “Hard to catch” right? (Pardon the pun)

Give Warrior and Guardian stealth and blinks and I will agree with your post, until then stop trying to defend the only spec in the game with no counter.

Frae

TrOtskY.5927:

Fire and Air make up 2K of this burst. That’s about 30% of our entire damage output in an optimal environment.

Exactly…

Fraelin.7409:

Static.9841:

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

How about, No?

Warriors and Guardians are meant to be tanky melee classes, that is how they are designed. However a zerker amulet Guardian surviving through “tons of damage” ? Even a zerker amulet warrior without cooldowns dies extremely fast to both direct damage and condition damage.

Warriors and Guardians have 0 access to stealth and 0 access to defensive shadowsteps. But I guess you think that doesn’t make thief hard to kill right? I guess you think immobilize having next to 0 effect vs s/d thief because of withdraw and flanking strike dodge while immobed doesn’t make s/d thief “Hard to catch” right? (Pardon the pun)

Give Warrior and Guardian stealth and blinks and I will agree with your post, until then stop trying to defend the only spec in the game with no counter.

Frae

then give thieves Aegis, Stability, 25k HP pool, Heavy Armor, Block, Invulnerability, Immunity to conditions, then we can agree that thief is more OP than War\Guardian

Increase initiative costs.
Problem solved.

Kolly.9872:

then give thieves Aegis, Stability, 25k HP pool, Heavy Armor, Block, Invulnerability, Immunity to conditions, then we can agree that thief is more OP than War\Guardian

So you have combined what warrior and guardian both have DIFFERENTLY and said that s/d thief is weaker because it doesn’t have what 2 other completely different play style classes have? Nice logic.

Also:
Since when does zerker Guardian have 25k hp and immunity to conditions??
Since when do warriors have Aegis?

Your basic argument is s/d thief doesn’t have everything so it can’t be OP! Good luck with that!

Frae

Fraelin.7409:

Kolly.9872:

then give thieves Aegis, Stability, 25k HP pool, Heavy Armor, Block, Invulnerability, Immunity to conditions, then we can agree that thief is more OP than War\Guardian

So you have combined what warrior and guardian both have DIFFERENTLY and said that s/d thief is weaker because it doesn’t have what 2 other completely different play style classes have? Nice logic.

Also:
Since when does zerker Guardian have 25k hp and immunity to conditions??
Since when do warriors have Aegis?

Your basic argument is s/d thief doesn’t have everything so it can’t be OP! Good luck with that!

Frae

Watch it there Frae. The voice of minority is mostly heard on this forums and anyone can see that for the past years their ideas got implemented as “balances”. Watch what you say, pretty soon we will see such thieves.

Fraelin.7409:

Kolly.9872:

then give thieves Aegis, Stability, 25k HP pool, Heavy Armor, Block, Invulnerability, Immunity to conditions, then we can agree that thief is more OP than War\Guardian

So you have combined what warrior and guardian both have DIFFERENTLY and said that s/d thief is weaker because it doesn’t have what 2 other completely different play style classes have? Nice logic.

Also:
Since when does zerker Guardian have 25k hp and immunity to conditions??
Since when do warriors have Aegis?

Your basic argument is s/d thief doesn’t have everything so it can’t be OP! Good luck with that!

Frae

Sure, and you are mixing up shadow art thieves (that are non existent in sPvP) with S\D acrobatic thieves with D\P perma blind thieves when talking about thief survivability. I agree that a thief that can perma evade\blind\stealth is OP.
Sadly warriors have stability, invulnerability, block, heavy armor and 25 hp pool all in one build, mixed with high damage

EDIT: I was just trying to show you that is easy to state a class is OP when mixing together all the things that class can do.
This topic is about S\D thieves and specifically an 2 0 0 6 6 S\D thief, so let’s just talk about them.
Can a S\D thief easily remove conditions?
-Shadowstep (50sec CD): remove 3 condition on the shadow return part but it’s mainly used as a breakstun
- Signet of agility (30sec CD): remove 1 condition for each ally nearby but since thief is a roaming class most of the time this skill will remove just 1 condition and it’s mainly used as an evasive skill than as a condition removal
-Pain Response(30sec CD): remove bleed, burn, poison when under 75% health, passive skill, it passively activates even if you don’t have such conditions on you, in my opinion a passive skill that activates even when you don’t need it, is hardly usefull and is taken only cos the alternatives are not even worth it.
- Shadow Return on Sword nr 2 skill: this is maybe the best cond removal a S\D thief can have, and it removes only 1 condition at a 5 initiative cost

Can A S\D thief easily remove\resist stuns?
-Shadow Step and Infiltrator signet are the only breakstun this build ckittene and if taken both of them, you will lose evasion since you cannot take Signet of agility, that’s why a S\D thief when caught by a stun is dead
-Stability? Of course not

Can a S\D thief perma stealth and survive and at the same time bringing something usefull to its team?
I’d say no, stealth is never a good thing in sPvP, the only time a thief should use stealth in pvp is for ressing, stomping (even if there are better classes at this role) and for a combinated stealth attack with its teammates

is a S\D thief the best roaming class and can bring support in a 2vs1 situation?
YES

For every other role but roaming and 2vs1 fights I would bring any other class than thieves in tPvP

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Moobs.8231:

Elitist.8701:

S/D thieves aren’t OP. In teamfights they dont have that much sustain, they only have 3 evades every 5 seconds unless they use Signet, and once focused they die really fast. They cant 1v1 engis, hambows, eles, or Necros ON POINT which is the only place where 1v1s matter. They’re only slightly more mobile than D/P thieves in terms of landspeed. Speaking of D/P thieves they HARDCOUNTER S/D thieves. Black Powder destroyed any X/D thief.

That’s a funny thing to say considering our thief who runs s/d never loses to caed

Thats because that thief is outplaying caed , d/p counters most thief sets aside from P/D because the latter doesn’t require you to go in melee range thus negating the blind spam.

caed is probably the best d/p thief mechanically so i think youre pretty stupid saying how it counters s/d then because no one should be able to beat him on s/d

+1 to Kolly. Thieves should indeed have what warriors and guardians have. Thieves are simply too nerfed. I strongly hope they will add the guardian features and the warrior features to thieves in the next patch.

Moobs.8231:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Moobs.8231:

Elitist.8701:

S/D thieves aren’t OP. In teamfights they dont have that much sustain, they only have 3 evades every 5 seconds unless they use Signet, and once focused they die really fast. They cant 1v1 engis, hambows, eles, or Necros ON POINT which is the only place where 1v1s matter. They’re only slightly more mobile than D/P thieves in terms of landspeed. Speaking of D/P thieves they HARDCOUNTER S/D thieves. Black Powder destroyed any X/D thief.

That’s a funny thing to say considering our thief who runs s/d never loses to caed

Thats because that thief is outplaying caed , d/p counters most thief sets aside from P/D because the latter doesn’t require you to go in melee range thus negating the blind spam.

caed is probably the best d/p thief mechanically so i think youre pretty stupid saying how it counters s/d then because no one should be able to beat him on s/d

Well dp thiefs bascially has the advantage over all other thief builds in a 1v1 pd included.

Also with in the conquest game mode where there is a time limit thief is quite bad at 1v1. A lone thief can not 1v1 majority of the meta builds and if they can it won’t be with in a reasonable time frame.

Thief strength lies in there mobility allowing them to decap empty points. Force uneven fights and burst down weaken targets. There 1v1 ability with in the conquest game mode is average.

I’d just like to see more counterplay to something like 10-15 seconds straight of dodging.

Perhaps some build/ability to put out 10-15 seconds straight of lethal damage FORCING the S/D acro thief to burn all available dodges.

Ok, just some suggestions to make the thief less op, based on things written in this topic.

The damage of the thief is too high, even with zerker amulett.
soltution: Reduce the melee damage to 90% maybe. The thief, a melee glass cannon, should not deal too much damage.
To compensate for that, we could improve the range of the shortbow to 1200, with traits to 1500. Because the thief is the only profession with no 1200 range option.
Additonally the thief needs some more AOE. Because single target damage should be bad, the thief needs something like combustive shot, meteor shower or something like that. Maybe more CC.

Dodges are to OP, so they had to be nerfed. SoA has to go. 2 free dodges, come on. Replace it with Endure Pain. Also replace Feline Grace with Defy Pain.

And you cannot interrupt withdraw. Thats really op. Replace it with Healing Signet, and increase the activation time to 2 seconds, just to make sure you can interrupt it.

And Flanking Strike is an evade and deals damage? How op. Replace it with a non damage evade like burning speed or whirlwind attack.

Ok, whats next? Stealth op in PvP on a S/D thief? Ok, here i’m lost.

I am by no means defending thief but if a lot of nerfs that are suggested in this thread were implemented then the class would be rendered unplayable.

There are a lot of cheesy elements about the class but I feel they mask underlining issues that most people tend to look over. The biggest one is their passive sustain, its non existent. With the except of the small intervals of sustain available via stealth.

Since they do not have the sustain of lets say a warrior or guardian, most of their mitigation comes through evades if they aren’t relying heavily on stealth. If evades were butchered then there is a chance that the class would never be played in tpvp again. I feel there are middle ground solutions, like introducing un-evadable skills with respectable cooldowns. That way there is some counter play.

But for the most part, I feel the class does its role adequately and if its taken away there won’t be anything else a thief player can contribute.

There is no equal comparison between high and medium armor classes(period). If you don’t know that by know you haven’t learn your class. The lower the armor the higher and more effective the burst but the more rewarding the sustain glass ele>glass thief>glass war. You can’t compare reflect,immunity,quick dps to stealth(www),evade to GS mobilty it’s foolish.

The same goes for conditions the lower the armor the more types and applications can they dish out necro>thief>war it’s foolish trying to make it equal since the based stats are not the same.

Sagat.3285:

There is no equal comparison between high and medium armor classes(period). If you don’t know that by know you haven’t learn your class. The lower the armor the higher and more effective the burst but the more rewarding the sustain glass ele>glass thief>glass war. You can’t compare reflect,immunity,quick dps to stealth(www),evade to GS mobilty it’s foolish.

The same goes for conditions the lower the armor the more types and applications can they dish out necro>thief>war it’s foolish trying to make it equal since the based stats are not the same.

How would health tiers fit into this idea?

Aza.2105:

Sagat.3285:

There is no equal comparison between high and medium armor classes(period). If you don’t know that by know you haven’t learn your class. The lower the armor the higher and more effective the burst but the more rewarding the sustain glass ele>glass thief>glass war. You can’t compare reflect,immunity,quick dps to stealth(www),evade to GS mobilty it’s foolish.

The same goes for conditions the lower the armor the more types and applications can they dish out necro>thief>war it’s foolish trying to make it equal since the based stats are not the same.

How would health tiers fit into this idea?

Health?HealthHealth!!

In the end it depends on your traits and gear but from any damage point of view the best come from the less armored(tough/vit) thus the idea of high risk high reward. Look at warrior low to none blind,chill,evade,teleport and AI so they’re better self-build than others and people cry about it but don’t realize the risk and reward concept. High cc and block comes from full melee with the risk of ranged death and so on.

Not idea it’s a fact guardian burst is more reliable and quicker than war because of lesser HP.

Moobs.8231:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Moobs.8231:

Elitist.8701:

S/D thieves aren’t OP. In teamfights they dont have that much sustain, they only have 3 evades every 5 seconds unless they use Signet, and once focused they die really fast. They cant 1v1 engis, hambows, eles, or Necros ON POINT which is the only place where 1v1s matter. They’re only slightly more mobile than D/P thieves in terms of landspeed. Speaking of D/P thieves they HARDCOUNTER S/D thieves. Black Powder destroyed any X/D thief.

That’s a funny thing to say considering our thief who runs s/d never loses to caed

Thats because that thief is outplaying caed , d/p counters most thief sets aside from P/D because the latter doesn’t require you to go in melee range thus negating the blind spam.

caed is probably the best d/p thief mechanically so i think youre pretty stupid saying how it counters s/d then because no one should be able to beat him on s/d

Im going to try to not jump into conclusions and call you an idiot but its hard to not do so when you make idiotic posts like this.

Caed isn’t the best d/p thief in the game its a tittle given to him by people who are clueless , like you , about any other side of this game not named sPVP .

And D/P DOES counter S/D in 1 v 1 as the black powder combined with shadow shot literally shut you down when you are melee ( media guards not included ) , so as an S/D thief fighting a D/P thief you have to constantly try to stay out of the BP radius in order for your attacks to land which is hard as kitten given how fast paced thief V thief fights are.

A well played d/p thief will completely shut down an S/D thief as chances are he will be constantly blinding you making you miss your steals , cnds etc….

Moobs.8231:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Moobs.8231:

Elitist.8701:

S/D thieves aren’t OP. In teamfights they dont have that much sustain, they only have 3 evades every 5 seconds unless they use Signet, and once focused they die really fast. They cant 1v1 engis, hambows, eles, or Necros ON POINT which is the only place where 1v1s matter. They’re only slightly more mobile than D/P thieves in terms of landspeed. Speaking of D/P thieves they HARDCOUNTER S/D thieves. Black Powder destroyed any X/D thief.

That’s a funny thing to say considering our thief who runs s/d never loses to caed

Thats because that thief is outplaying caed , d/p counters most thief sets aside from P/D because the latter doesn’t require you to go in melee range thus negating the blind spam.

caed is probably the best d/p thief mechanically so i think youre pretty stupid saying how it counters s/d then because no one should be able to beat him on s/d

This guy seems to have a real hardcore man crush. With that typed, would have to agree with “TheThief” dude.

TheThiefMaster.3812:

And D/P DOES counter S/D in 1 v 1 as the black powder combined with shadow shot literally shut you down when you are melee ( media guards not included ) , so as an S/D thief fighting a D/P thief you have to constantly try to stay out of the BP radius in order for your attacks to land which is hard as kitten given how fast paced thief V thief fights are.

A well played d/p thief will completely shut down an S/D thief as chances are he will be constantly blinding you making you miss your steals , cnds etc….

I find that staying out of the field is easy, but the self combo blind on the bullet is what gets me. If it hits you, you really have no chance of interrupting heart seeker. I’ve taken to double spamming dancing dagger to clear the blind and hope the cripple will through them off their game so I can kite long enough. I feel like shadow shot may hit a little too hard as well.

pls nerf every aspect of thief cos their burst is high when sigils proc + might with strenght runes.

totally makes sense

the only way d/p thief can counter a good s/d thief is called panic strike.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

pls nerf every aspect of thief cos their burst is high when sigils proc + might with strenght runes.

totally makes sense

This is why I am just calling for Fire/Air to be nerf’d. The Runes will require a lot more thought to rebalance and can be tackled at a later date. I am pretty much 100% sure that when the Sigil changes were announced many of us spoke of the problems Fire/Air would pose and ANet told us they wouldn’t allow them not to share CD. As said above (by someone DEFENDING the Sigil pair) they provide 30% damage during spikes (that is about the same as +42% damage on your attacks) – this is an unacceptable level of damage.

Fire/Air is being used on Mesmer GS, Burst Eles and SD Thieves – it is free OP burst that doesn’t care if you’re hitting combos or just hitting autos. The disease has spread we must cut it out, soon.

Quite honestly every class has builds like the one OP is talking about. These “easy” builds. It’s just the way the skill system is designed.

As a side note though, even though I agree with you OP. How would we compensate thieves with a nerf? I mean without their high damage and how they handle defense, what would make them different from any other classes? What if people decide warrior is a better melee/Ranged dpser?

How I reach to these guyzzzzzzz….

S/D isn’t the problem itself but runes and sigils.

Also nerfing Feline Grace would help to this cause but the whole set would get totally destroyed.

I would like to see a nerf to Feline Grace and a buff to FS (steal 2 buff again please).

Its the same way u counter someone in smash bros spamming the dodge button ! ! ??

Better timings, positionings and most importantly work on your mind game capabaility.

The mind game ability goes in the same catagory as trying to hit an interupt on someone fakecasting alot

u cannot turn off your brains and go auto pilot and spam keys vs thieves

Mbelch.9028:

There’s no build in the game that requires less skill than a condi mesmer build or a d/p thief build. We can leave everything else alone until those are fixed.

(no worries, condi warriors are high on the list too)

Do you always just troll D/P thieves? It seems that’s all you ever talk about, and when you do, it’s nothing good and always complaining about it. At this point I think there are bigger issues that are affecting S/D than D/P.

I think thief players go through various phases of denial and acceptance of how broken their class is (in an overpowered way).

Sizer.2654:

Its the same way u counter someone in smash bros spamming the dodge button ! ! ??

Better timings, positionings and most importantly work on your mind game capabaility.

The mind game ability goes in the same catagory as trying to hit an interupt on someone fakecasting alot

u cannot turn off your brains and go auto pilot and spam keys vs thieves

Perfect example of denial….considering how he apparently made the s/d evade (lack of any skill) spec famous again.

maha.7902:

being able to evade 8 times in a row is balanced what are you talking about

Being Immune to everything is also.

BUT your forgetting, that is how thieves stay alive, evade and blind.

This cat understands proper SD thief gameplay

Let’s just say some zerkers might have a problem with the spec but the game is not only zerker at least pvp and www wise. Let’s leave this thread dead until the patch.

I still don’t understand how you plan to change this spec any. It’s very obvious the only real problem is the stacking fire and air sigils. This is where all the builds offensive power is coming from.

Beyond that what else is the problem? Swap 20% steal cooldown to 20% boon duration in tricks would solve those complaints.

The evade spam can’t be touched without a near total rework of the entire class. Aint nobody got time for that.

Atherakhia.4086:

I still don’t understand how you plan to change this spec any. It’s very obvious the only real problem is the stacking fire and air sigils. This is where all the builds offensive power is coming from.

Beyond that what else is the problem? Swap 20% steal cooldown to 20% boon duration in tricks would solve those complaints.

The evade spam can’t be touched without a near total rework of the entire class. Aint nobody got time for that.

The point is IF Fire+Air is nerf’d they then will not be damaging enough to choose the build they are currently using, where every single trait point is spent on defensive and utility effects. Thieves will not be able to Steal+Auto for 40% of a Shatter Mesmer’s health if they stop Fire+Air (and don’t forget the Lifesteal Sigil too!).

Thieves do need more balancing after this change but it is a SIMPLE and QUICK fix for something that infects Eles and Mesmers too – Fresh Air lolinstantprocz is not impressive either (I know its hardly top tier tPvP but it shouldn’t exist with these Sigils either)

pathetic…

ppl asking for middles nerfs without thinking how it will affect the profession. YOU are only piking up stuff about thieves that you personally dont like and instead of learning to counter them you whine to anet asking for nerfs cuz it’s alot easier to beat on a afk dude then to L2P.

/facepalm

Booms.2594:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Moobs.8231:

Elitist.8701:

S/D thieves aren’t OP. In teamfights they dont have that much sustain, they only have 3 evades every 5 seconds unless they use Signet, and once focused they die really fast. They cant 1v1 engis, hambows, eles, or Necros ON POINT which is the only place where 1v1s matter. They’re only slightly more mobile than D/P thieves in terms of landspeed. Speaking of D/P thieves they HARDCOUNTER S/D thieves. Black Powder destroyed any X/D thief.

That’s a funny thing to say considering our thief who runs s/d never loses to caed

Thats because that thief is outplaying caed , d/p counters most thief sets aside from P/D because the latter doesn’t require you to go in melee range thus negating the blind spam.

caed is probably the best d/p thief mechanically so i think youre pretty stupid saying how it counters s/d then because no one should be able to beat him on s/d

I’m not sure how good Caed is because I’ve never fought him, but Amonatory beating Caed just shows that Amonatory is good enough to counter that disadvantage. however, the fact that you think that shows that S/D beats D/P just shows you’re ignorant. D/P has much higher burst, and has melee range invincibility with pistol 5.

On topic, this thread is still going on? S/D thief isn’t OP, and everyone that says it’s face roll has 99% guaranteed never used the spec or just wrecked some nub and comes to the forum to say " I destroyed someone slightly more bad than me, so S/D thief must be OP, PLZ nerf". Another scenario, " Im playing Hambow look at me spam buttons, oh look a thief, wtf he’s dodging all my moves, that cant be him skillfully dodging major tells, he must be evade spamming, S/D thief OP nerf plox".

-Teef Teef Teef Teef (My sig is disabled by mods >:( )

Volrath.1473:

pathetic…

ppl asking for middles nerfs without thinking how it will affect the profession. YOU are only piking up stuff about thieves that you personally dont like and instead of learning to counter them you whine to anet asking for nerfs cuz it’s alot easier to beat on a afk dude then to L2P.

/facepalm

If only that was the case with s/d SoH evade, but it’s not a “L2p” issue at all in the end.