Guild Wars 2

The top players got the system they wanted and, if people are at all honest about any of this, probably deserved. They’ll get to, to one extent or another, escape the shackles of last season, where average to poor players could and would hold back the talented ones. Less instances of having to carry, and less instances of being carried, get a nice skin. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

But, as the OP mused, sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for. They got what the wanted, but it /might/ have been a really kittening bad choice. Anet’s Season 1 presented X-prize to be attainable by even middling skilled players with enough patience and perseverance. Top players saw average players grind to legendary, didn’t like the look of any of that, so season 2 punches people in the nose and says, ‘Git gud’. So, yeah, there’s going to be /a lot/ of people that are going to be sad, angry, and hurt. And, more importantly, they’re going to quit. If not the game entirely, certainly the game-mode. That’s less new blood coming in the system, less people watching Twitch streams, following pro teams and ESL cups, and less competition all over. I can’t imagine that’s a good thing for a competitive scene that already needs all the help it can get.

So I wonder if it’ll all end up being worth it. Maybe when the top-500 get stuck in ruby because nobody is coming up from Sapphire anymore, they’ll be more noise from that contingent. We’ll see, I suppose, how it shakes out. But as of today, I can’t really say the outlook looks all that positive, as far as the health of the pvp community goes.

Agree with the OP.

Something stinks with the matchmaking. However the numbers were planned they aren’t working out. This many people with crazy losing streaks AND the new pip system which double punishes them for losing even when they are outmatched going in.

Something is way off in the way teams are being put together. It might have been a good idea, but I don’t think the execution was really thought through. This week has been a trainwreck and people caught in the downward spiral are just going to continue to spiral.

The differences between teams are huge because its the start of the season. It will even out eventually and the differences between teams and players within certain divisions should be small within a few weeks.

I know it isnt fun at this moment if your mmr is low. The new bonus pips during win streaks will get players like me (26-2 so far this season, solo + started yesterday) out of the way in no time tho.

ronpierce.2760:

I have a few questions.
1. Does unranked still use the old MMR method, where teams are attempted to be balanced?
2. Does unranked MMR gains and losses share with Ranked?

The reason I ask this is, if the above are both true, first off, people need to get out of the mindset that “Ranked” is for everyone. Everyone is welcome to apply, but not everyone will be effective in a highly competitive arena. That’s FINE. There is no reason to hand-hold people in Ranked, that’s what Unranked even exists for. People who want 100% fair matches, remember unranked exists. It may suck to hear, but Ranked simply isn’t a reward track and isn’t intended to be. It is a competition, and as such, it wouldn’t be a competition if everyone won or if it was divided up into baby, medium and high tier (which is effectively what averaging MMR does), because it becomes unfair for the higher tier players who have to fight only higher tier players while lower tier players rise in ranks by fighting other bad players.

I don’t want to come off as rude, but I think people are really watering down what the point of having an “Unranked” and a “Ranked” even is. By no means should anyone feel like they are entitled to do well in Ranked, nor should all apply. If you wish to try to get a few ranks out of it for some rewards, by all means, but I don’t think anyone should EXPECT anything from competition.

To my second question, if they ARE indeed shared, maybe build up your MMR by practicing and getting better in Unranked and try making a static team before shooting for Ranked play. (And if not, perhaps they should be.)

+1

System is fine. If you’re on a loss streak, go unranked. No one is entitled to do well in ranked.

Locuz.2651:

The differences between teams are huge because its the start of the season. It will even out eventually and the differences between teams and players within certain divisions should be small within a few weeks.

I know it isnt fun at this moment if your mmr is low. The new bonus pips during win streaks will get players like me (26-2 so far this season, solo + started yesterday) out of the way in no time tho.

People understand that. It’s really not the issue the OP is asking. He’s asking, and interestingly so, will there be anyone even playing the lower tiers in a few weeks because of how terrible they’re experiences have been thus far? People don’t like to play video games to feel miserable and bad. They’ll go do something else. Seems a lot of top-players like to live in a bubble where they think new top-players are created in a lab and just injected into the system when an old one goes away. But, unfortunately, a healthy tournament system lives and dies on a healthy population. Keep 1000 players happy so that maybe one will stick with it, love it, get great, and be on a great team. And the rest, hopefully, will be interested in what the pros are doing. Lose that, and, well…

Anyhow, it’s too early to say if the sky is falling, but there’s no denying the temperament out there is pretty salty right now. For whatever that is worth.

The new match making system forgets one thing. Players like me. I’m not awesome, not by a long shot, but I know that and I practice. I learned a lot more from the game in Season 1 then in the current season. In season one I managed to climb as far as league 4 before I didn’t get any further, I didnt cheat/tank mmr, I simply logged on and played. Do you honestly hink I give a crap that I got to league 4? I took the gold and I was done with it.

I play for fun, I don’t expect to get carried, I expect people to voice their criticism, I wanna get better. Season 2 makes that pretty hard for me. I don’t particularly learn much from being basecamped by people that are 10 times better then I am. I also don’t learn from playing with vegetables that don’t talk. When you say casuals belong in the ‘bottom barrel’ I am fine with that, but the thing I’m NOT fine with is the fact that I get kitten matches just because I can’t play 24/7 due to rl issues.

I’ve given this system a chance, but after a week, not much has changed yet, the majority of the matches is still kitten. For f’s sake, I don’t want phat rewards, I find the legendary wings fugly, I don’t care what league I’m in, even if it’s dung-tier, I just wanna frigging PVP.

Think about it: BIG downtime when there’s no ranked, all you can do is unranked. When ranked season starts people tell you to wait ANOTHER 4 weeks until things have settled down. All you can do, again, is unranked. When the season is over you’ll be stuck with ANOTHER huge downtime, where all you can do, is unranked.

How can I improve when I CAN’T PLAY RANKED for 50% of the time? I need the practice people. And don’t tell me to practice in unranked because that’s not the same. All you can practice in unranked are class mechanics, not tactics. I’ve had to endure somuch abuse, afk, lopsided matches and whatnot that I actually long back to GW1, especially RA, because compared to this RA is a quiet place of zen where everyone is pink, fluffy and happy….

Salamander.2504:

ronpierce.2760:

I have a few questions.
1. Does unranked still use the old MMR method, where teams are attempted to be balanced?
2. Does unranked MMR gains and losses share with Ranked?

The reason I ask this is, if the above are both true, first off, people need to get out of the mindset that “Ranked” is for everyone. Everyone is welcome to apply, but not everyone will be effective in a highly competitive arena. That’s FINE. There is no reason to hand-hold people in Ranked, that’s what Unranked even exists for. People who want 100% fair matches, remember unranked exists. It may suck to hear, but Ranked simply isn’t a reward track and isn’t intended to be. It is a competition, and as such, it wouldn’t be a competition if everyone won or if it was divided up into baby, medium and high tier (which is effectively what averaging MMR does), because it becomes unfair for the higher tier players who have to fight only higher tier players while lower tier players rise in ranks by fighting other bad players.

I don’t want to come off as rude, but I think people are really watering down what the point of having an “Unranked” and a “Ranked” even is. By no means should anyone feel like they are entitled to do well in Ranked, nor should all apply. If you wish to try to get a few ranks out of it for some rewards, by all means, but I don’t think anyone should EXPECT anything from competition.

To my second question, if they ARE indeed shared, maybe build up your MMR by practicing and getting better in Unranked and try making a static team before shooting for Ranked play. (And if not, perhaps they should be.)

+1

System is fine. If you’re on a loss streak, go unranked. No one is entitled to do well in ranked.

I do love this. But if all the “entitled” folk stop playing PvP you wont get your easy wins. Then you’ll start to lose games. Then you’ll be the ones complaining the system is not fair.

Why do people play PvP. I would think first and foremost for the challenge.where is the challenge for the good players? Heck even players like my self who are not too.bad,but not"pro" level are having really one sided matches where you win with a score of 500-100 or 200 maybe 300 if your lucky. Most wins are complete stomps where the other team are just fodder. Same go’s then for when you are losing games. The match is so one sided it’s not even funny.

The other problem is that some people did “well” last season. So they have a better MMR than they should, so then they have this misconception that the are better than they really are and are having a wake up call this time around.

While i agree not everyone is legend material. People should naturally fine there level, not make the players better than them think they are so, when really they probably are not really that much better.

here’s a novel idea….

Don’t reset the divisions.

that way, you actually play in the division where you belong instead of trying to crawl over 10k kittenters to get to players of your skill level.

…only to have the season end, and get forced to do it all over again next season.

You SHOULD average out to a 50/50 win loss once you hit the bracket/division where you belong.

and

You SHOULD retain league positioning every season.

This “league” system is simply a reward track that you can lose progress on.

…and it serves no purpose in its current form.

“System is fine. If you’re on a loss streak, go unranked. No one is entitled to do well in ranked.”

The system is not fine. the only reason he’s on a loss streak is the losing streak itself. The streak reduces his MMR and low MMR causes more losses due to flawed MM.
It’s not rocket science.

Seems really streaky. Went 18-0 then lost one when we were up 200 and 2 “primordial legends” decide to push lord at 250 and kitten fell apart after that. That started a 5 game losing streak where I could pinpoint the exact moment the match was lost. From teammates over correcting to home and two games of people sitting on the treb being useless the whole match. Point being after the first loss the quality of teammates went to kitten.

I probably should have played more the first two nights to get to mid sapphire because the quality of players I’m getting teamed with in the last tier of emerald first tier of sapphire are terrible. Not all but it only takes one or two to kitten things up.

Not saying I’m perfect and I don’t screw up but that for me the majority of the losses I have come from a major screw up on the part of one or two teammates.

This system don’t works even after a year…even for the top 10 player…it’s math.

Zuko nailed it. People like me are already quitting PvP outright because of the exact reasons he/she outlined.

Yeah today was my last day. I’m done. Enjoy your Esports Anet.

Torafugu.1087:

“System is fine. If you’re on a loss streak, go unranked. No one is entitled to do well in ranked.”

The system is not fine. the only reason he’s on a loss streak is the losing streak itself. The streak reduces his MMR and low MMR causes more losses due to flawed MM.
It’s not rocket science.

Well, they’re right. Nobody deserves or is entitled to anything in pvp. But what a weird kittening marketing scheme: PvP League Season 2 on splash screen, ready-ups, hype, everybody come play pvp for shiny backpack. Oh, but it’s going to be really, really kittening miserable for /most/ of you, and you’ll end up resenting the game mode if not the whole game itself, stick to unranked because you’re bad.

If that was the plan the whole time, I think they’ve a real success on their hands, here.

Hey!
I started to play in december of the past year and reached diamond few days before of the end of the s1.
Well, I had not difficulties for reach emerald. More and more 3 wins and reached more ranks of emerald in a short time(4/5 won). What’s happens? In one match, my Internet crashed and I came back hours more later.. that was terrible: I won 4/5 matches before and after I won 1/10, my MMR was changed with the crash to a many low MMR? In the last rank of emerald I had to make a group with people of my clan for try increase my mmr, at least this last night in premade of 4 diamond(scrapper, ele, dh and me) we reached shapphire.
The circumstance, if you start to lose matches, you will lose more matches.

It’s sad how season 2 was meant to promote more players to play in it, but instead did the opposite.

And watch the queue times go through the roof. If you are not sympathetic to the plight half the playerbase you will be soon enough.

gacob.1759:

The circumstance, if you start to lose matches, you will lose more matches.

A single lost match won’t affect your MMR much. Even multiple lost matches won’t do so, if you have a decent amount of ranked games played.

If you start off on the wrong footing, you get screwed up for the entire season.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

gacob.1759:

The circumstance, if you start to lose matches, you will lose more matches.

A single lost match won’t affect your MMR much. Even multiple lost matches won’t do so, if you have a decent amount of ranked games played.

My MMR changed to kitten after the crash, I don’t know how many is my MMR now and how many was.

FULL DRUNK RANT INC:

Average players that got carried into legend last league, well deserved, gg.

Whoever decided this system, needs another job, or fire the person that wanted this to be the end all be all system.

(let me preface this as I continue my ruby farm, )

This system is a joke, and it obviously isn’t working correctly, why should 1 player shoulder the weight of 4, I wont bring in screenshots, but if this gets the devs attention, then kitten your matchmaking tbh

Locuz.2651:

The differences between teams are huge because its the start of the season. It will even out eventually and the differences between teams and players within certain divisions should be small within a few weeks.

I know it isnt fun at this moment if your mmr is low. The new bonus pips during win streaks will get players like me (26-2 so far this season, solo + started yesterday) out of the way in no time tho.

This sort of person is exactly the reason pvp is the way it is elitist and smug – save your pity please !! typical elitist should not have expected anymore

I had a game where we stomped them 500-120 and everyone on their team was legit bad. Then the next game I got 2 of those people on my team and we lost 400-500. Don’t really know why they put them on my team but w/e, I don’t think the MMR stuff is working properly.

“I know it isnt fun at this moment if your mmr is low. The new bonus pips during win streaks will get players like me (26-2 so far this season, solo + started yesterday) out of the way in no time tho.”

He’s just happy he’s been carried up by his win streak and the flawed system.
Then he will hit a proverbial brick wall.

Zuko.7132:

Hi all. I’m Zuko. I play tempest for Best Team North Africa, which is currently invited to participate in the Challenger Cup to qualify for Pro-League.

So the goal of this new matchmaking is to make the league system more skill-based. So if you have high mmr (the game thinks ur good) you will progress faster and easier. If you have low mmr (game thinks ur bad) you might have incredible difficulty getting out of amber. How it works is you get matched with players on ur team of similar mmr. The opposing team has team mates of a similar mmr on it. However, your teams average mmr and the enemy teams mmr can be vastly different. If you are one of the players in the top 1% then you have a 99% chance to face an enemy team with lower skill than you. Likewise if you are in the bottom 50% you have a 50% chance to fight people much better than you.

The idea is that the good players will progress to higher divisions quicker and leave only the bad to average players in the lower divisions. Then the average players will advance leaving only the bad players. So as the season goes on your matches should start becoming more balanced, and divisions will actually represent skill instead of time spent playing like last season.

Here’s the issue with that. While I love the fact that I am progressing quickly as a reward for being one of the more highly skilled players, this type of matchmaking can be quite discouraging to a majority of the playerbase. If the game doesn’t already rate you as good, you will be more likely to lose and the game will think more and more that you suck. Anet’s answer to this is as time progresses matches will become better. I fear however that this new matchmaking will cause many of the new, average, and bad players to just give up before matchmaking becomes balance again. Call it quits and go home. And let’s face it, that’s bad for the game. I would ask anet if having the few really good players progress faster is worth angering and harming the gaming experience of the vast majority of the player population. Also for the unlucky people who actually are bad whether it be from being unable to commit enough time or just lacking skill, there matches will never get better as they are always going to be below average and so will always have more of a chance to face teams better than them, and will always be on a losing streak and thus quit the game.

Feel free to share your thoughts.

Its nice of you that you care about the worst players, but thats the whole idea behind any ladder.
Someone has to be the worst and there isnt much to argue about why the worst shouldnt stay at the bottom.

If you had been paying attention it’s not just the worst tho. Decent players aren’t able to play in this system. So quiting the game is a moot point and that is going to affect everyone, even the ignorantly smug.

Cynz.9437:

@Dirtyrascal.1023:
- old system wasn’t looking for 50/50 matches most of the time
- old system promoted farming, there was literary no difference wether you are good or bad player, you just had to farm matches; it was literary old farmboards with sprinkles

Exploiting the losing streak bonus is already appearing in this system.

jessiestiles.9437:

If you had been paying attention it’s not just the worst tho. Decent players aren’t able to play in this system. So quiting the game is a moot point and that is going to affect everyone, even the ignorantly smug.

agree entirely could not have said it better +1

Everyone thinks, he is (at least) decent, because the previous system allowed everyone to win a good amount of games. But how can you know, if you have never faced much better players before?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Everyone thinks, he is (at least) decent, because the previous system allowed everyone to win a good amount of games. But how can you know, if you have never faced much better players before?

Because in a league you will get to a point where’s you can go no further. The current set up means you stomp, or get stomped. There is no way to improve when you have close to no chance of winning.

Most people don’t want a free ride, the just want a chance of winning every match to a point.

I think that’s common sense. Nearly every player I could 1v1 and 3v1 I hold up my end reasonably. Of course I come across people that can defeat me but most people in a 20 game lose streak aren’t better than me. I know that much.

Cynz.9437:

@Dirtyrascal.1023:
- old system wasn’t looking for 50/50 matches most of the time
- old system promoted farming, there was literary no difference wether you are good or bad player, you just had to farm matches; it was literary old farmboards with sprinkles

“- old system wasn’t looking for 50/50 matches most of the time”
—- It was. Like I said though, this was subject to suitable player population.

“- old system promoted farming,”
—-If ‘challenge’ was the metric for progression then people did indeed earn their positions. A 1000 MMR player vs a 1000MMR player should feel similarly challenged to a 3000MMR player vs a 3000MMR player.

Fact is higher MMR players have done nothing but FARM since season 2 started.

“…there was literary no difference wether you are good or bad player”
—-Good players still got to climb the leader boards and get where they should be, but it wasn’t SPECIAL because you could also get there just by being dedicated.

I personally feel that it is better to reward some people who may not deserve it than it is to PENALISE people who don’t deserve it. And that is the fundamental difference between season 1 and season 2.

Season 1 was not perfect. I personally think it was much healthier for the game than season 2. As I’ve said I think a system that attempts 50/50 matchmaking of opponents is the correct way to go. The area that needs looking at is the League system. For instance, there should be free flow up and down tiers and divisions at all levels, you should start the season close to where you left off the previous season.

“Everyone thinks, he is (at least) decent, because the previous system allowed everyone to win a good amount of games. But how can you know, if you have never faced much better players before?”

These L2P posters need to understand that in spvp your team matters more than you. There wouldn’t be a problem otherwise.
Now where is my 1 v 1 ladder bro.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Everyone thinks, he is (at least) decent, because the previous system allowed everyone to win a good amount of games. But how can you know, if you have never faced much better players before?

True but how do you expect a team of low MMR players to win against a Team of High MMR players, it’s like a team full of challenger vs bronze. FYI, I am in no way insinuating that low MMR equate to poor skills.

Torafugu: Most teams I’m playing are solo queue as well. My team, who I don’t blame for the current problems, are selected on the basis that they will lose. Your post is irrelevant.

jessiestiles.9437:

Torafugu: Most teams I’m playing are solo queue as well. My team, who I don’t blame for the current problems, are selected on the basis that they will lose. Your post is irrelevant.

Most team are consist of players who have high MMR because they are only paired with other players who have high MMR.
You don’t understand the problem is the vicious cycle and is therefore irreverent.

That’s the complete opposite of what you were saying in the post I responded to. You’re not all there are you?

The question is, why do those players have a high MMR (even before the start of the season)?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

The question is, why do those players have a high MMR (even before the start of the season)?

Because they started off lucky, that’s all there is to it. Once it gets up it stays up because you get carried by good teams, thank you MMR.

I didn’t win 1 match today, thank Jesus.

Torafugu.1087:

Because they started off lucky, that’s all there is to it. Once it gets up it stays up because you get carried by good teams, thank you MMR.

How was it possible in season 1 (or in unranked) to create fair matches (or at least provide accurate predictions), if MMR is purely luck based?

Idk guys, i have a f2p account that has only played enough unranked matches to play ranked and enough matches to reach emerald in season 1 because i wanted to help a friend to get to ruby. We still lost a fair amount of matches back then so i don’t think its mmr is too high. I still had no trouble to get out of amber in season 2 and the other players on both teams were really terrible. That was on a coreclass, would have been even easier with a proper build.
end of the story: I have a hard time believing people who claim at they only lose because they are matched with bad teammates vs much better opponents.

Yesterday i had a player in ruby whose team had 0% winrate, regardless of whether he was on my team or against me. Obviously, he did not realise that the issue might be himself, but blamed his team instead.

If you keep losing perhaps rethink your build or your plays (or queue when more players are available as queueing late night can be fairly random due to the limited playerpool) 1v1 is helpful but not sufficient to win matches/being better than other players and far away from carrying your team because while you win 1v1 your team still has to win or at least stall (but a draw nearly never happens in lower brackets) 4v4 on the rest of the map aka your team has to better than he other team.

He’s saying if you were lucky enough to win your first matches by chance you’re MMR becomes elevated and you are placed with stronger players regardless of your skill level. The same being conversely true if you lose your first matches. And if you are losing you are placed with people experiencing long losing streaks whose moral has severely been lowered and expect to lose and some don’t even bother trying. The winning side having won many times in a row all expect to win and begin the game with a stronger team and a more positive outlook. This does not bode well.

As I understand it in season 1 the matches were based on your win/loss ratio and attempted to create evenly matched teams not favoring either side. Which upset a small fraction of the community. And people generally enjoyed themselves except for the stupid parts where you lost 2 pips because a team mate dc’d or pro teams (and pro team wannabes) matchfixing.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Torafugu.1087:

Because they started off lucky, that’s all there is to it. Once it gets up it stays up because you get carried by good teams, thank you MMR.

How was it possible in season 1 (or in unranked) to create fair matches (or at least provide accurate predictions), if MMR is purely luck based?

in unranked, you are only matched against people in your MMR range.
in S2, your opponent can have any MMR, as long as they are in your pip range. Regardless of their MMR. This lead to every match being non-match.
This is a textbook case of people playing with equations without understanding them.

The “fairness” is that you are paired with people closely represented as equal to you. That way, no one is being carried and no one is having to carry a team to be effective. Then you face other people with a team roughly as good as them, as long as they’ve reached roughly a similar division. As far as ranked goes, that’s entirely fair. People should be paired with similarly skilled players so their growth reflects their abilities, as it is a shares potential within the group.

What I don’t understand, still, is why everyone is basically begging for Ranked gameplay to basically be Unranked with more rewards…. If you’re not a competitive player and your main goal is to have a balanced match, then just do Unranked? Either you put in a little more effort for ranked, or skip the effort and play on a comfortable playing field, and just play Unranked. It still exists…

We are not begging for fairness. We are asking for something that remotely resembles functionality. The current version of MM algorithm work about as well as a stove that explode on your face when you switch it on.

Forum bug….

Torafugu.1087:

We are not begging for fairness. We are asking for something that remotely resembles functionality.

And in a lot of ways, it does. If within a low division, as people grow out of them, you still struggle super hard to get out of the lowest division, either not enough people have left it yet or you’re just not really cut out for making higher tiers yet. It’s brutal, but that’s how competitive environments work.

About the ONLY legitimate concern I have for people losing a lot is “what happens if you’re in a tail spin on MMR?” But I think people are grossly over-attributing how their loss of MMR affects their performance. I think there is a lot of personal growth requires and more than ever, it’s becoming very obvious to people that they aren’t as good as they thought due to the Unranked system trying to create “fair” match ups.

I hate to say it, but there are just some really bad people trying to push through this “Ranked” gameplay that aren’t cut out for it. Last night, last tier of Emerald that pushed me into Sapphire, a team mate DCed over and over, couldn’t stay on. We won 500-150 4v5, and was camping them at their base… I felt sort of had for them, but at the same time, I just don’t see them being in higher divisions. I think some people would have more fun if they just cut their losses and played in Unranked so they can have their performance off-set a bit.

geekanerd.4123:

Torafugu.1087:

“System is fine. If you’re on a loss streak, go unranked. No one is entitled to do well in ranked.”

The system is not fine. the only reason he’s on a loss streak is the losing streak itself. The streak reduces his MMR and low MMR causes more losses due to flawed MM.
It’s not rocket science.

Well, they’re right. Nobody deserves or is entitled to anything in pvp. But what a weird kittening marketing scheme: PvP League Season 2 on splash screen, ready-ups, hype, everybody come play pvp for shiny backpack. Oh, but it’s going to be really, really kittening miserable for /most/ of you, and you’ll end up resenting the game mode if not the whole game itself, stick to unranked because you’re bad.

If that was the plan the whole time, I think they’ve a real success on their hands, here.

If all the better than average players progress and the less than average are left behindbat the start of the season doesn’t that mean the less than average willbface the new players and each other? Then its only a matter of them increasing there skill level by watching top tier streams or tournaments in order to get better? So this matchmaking actually makes sense then..