Guild Wars 2

Looks like the competitive community is the same across all the games. Dota 2, LoL, CS:GO, HoN, HotS, Gw2.. you name it. Everyone just blames the game, the matchmaking system, their team mates but not themselves. I’m not saying the meta or the matchmaking system is perfect but this is ridiculous.

In every game, there will be an ‘elo hell’. Dota 2, LoL, CS:GO, whatever. And everyone stuck in this ‘elo hell’ will just keep complaining about everything under the sun, and claim that people who got past it was just by luck. I mean, that’s a given right? People will hit 8k mmr in dota 2, challenger in LoL and GE in CS:GO only by luck and grinding right?

This is the exact thing happening to leagues in Gw2. Except anet screwed up by not implementing mmr reset and calibration. Otherwise, there’s really no issue except for the current state of the meta since mmr tanking only works till sapphire.

Or perhaps there’s some legitimacy to some of the complaints.

Perhaps some people stuck in “elo hell” don’t individually deserve it.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which relatively unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than it really is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

ReaperJr.5967:

Except anet screwed up by not implementing mmr reset and calibration.

Which makes all the qq legitimate, especially the guy who was able to reach Ruby on his alt while his main account is stuck in Emerald.

ReaperJr.5967:

Looks like the competitive community is the same across all the games. Dota 2, LoL, CS:GO, HoN, HotS, Gw2.. you name it. Everyone just blames the game, the matchmaking system, their team mates but not themselves. I’m not saying the meta or the matchmaking system is perfect but this is ridiculous.

In every game, there will be an ‘elo hell’. Dota 2, LoL, CS:GO, whatever. And everyone stuck in this ‘elo hell’ will just keep complaining about everything under the sun, and claim that people who got past it was just by luck. I mean, that’s a given right? People will hit 8k mmr in dota 2, challenger in LoL and GE in CS:GO only by luck and grinding right?

This is the exact thing happening to leagues in Gw2. Except anet screwed up by not implementing mmr reset and calibration. Otherwise, there’s really no issue except for the current state of the meta since mmr tanking only works till sapphire.

To an extent of course, but the MMR reset is a small part of the problem. Unbalanced meta in GW2 is a completely failure. So horrible that the absolute best players in the game have made some very negative comments about it and one Pro team even wrote an open letter to the community not apologizing for their actions after his group rage quit. Things are actually quit different in GW2 than those other games you mentioned. Those games are well respected by players and spectators. For example LoL has 90k viewers right now. GW2 has about 500? GW2 PvP is the laughingstock of Twitch because of the horrible camera problems, the over use of skill fx, bad announcing for pro league play. The list goes on. The viewership numbers don’t lie.

The need to put some real love into fixing the product. If they really cared they could do many things. They could put out a post to the community here apologizing for the (as Chaith of The Abjured called it) “ridiculous meta” and make it so Elite Specializations aren’t available for ranked/League PvP play also block use of the new mods. We’re almost mid season now so it’s pointless, but they could have done this as soon as the first week of ESL Pro League matches hit and it became very clear how bad the meta was due to imbalance. They had choices. They still have choices. They choose to address the problems through minor skill balance.

There are powers that be who want to pretend certain problems aren’t as bad as they really are. When someone has that tunnel vision there really isn’t much you can do. The community as whole is just going to suffer and in the end the game itself suffers. Games don’t age well at all. Once you’ve lost a customers interest they are usually gone for it.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

The need to put some real love into fixing the product. If they really cared they could do many things.

Unfortunately, the Pro Leagues are for marketing. The company has actually said this. They don’t exist because Anet cares about a true competitive PvP competition, they exist to try and market the game. I think that right there is a really big part of the problem.

Israel.7056:

Or perhaps there’s some legitimacy to some of the complaints.

Perhaps some people stuck in “elo hell” don’t individually deserve it.

If you’re stuck in Elo hell you deserve it.

90% of escaping Elo Hell is being good enough to work with a team. Once you can do that you are out.

If you cannot find a team and are pugging, it’s because you don’t know how to be a team player.

And as you go, you may even have to refine your team comp and get people that can do their job without being toxic.

[note: if you are solo queuing on purpose then you may not lament elohell]

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Israel.7056:

Or perhaps there’s some legitimacy to some of the complaints.

Perhaps some people stuck in “elo hell” don’t individually deserve it.

If you’re stuck in Elo hell you deserve it.

90% of escaping Elo Hell is being good enough to work with a team. Once you can do that you are out.

If you cannot find a team and are pugging, it’s because you don’t know how to be a team player.

And as you go, you may even have to refine your team comp and get people that can do their job without being toxic.

The flaw here, is you’re not considering that they’ve combined 2 different match making rating systems!

Meaning, someone with 2200 MMR could have significant issues in Division 2, while someone with 1400 MMR could have an easier time climbing all the way to Division 5.

What everyone is complaining about, is that legitimately good, long time PvPers appear to be getting stuck in the same division for a long time.
Due to their pre-existing MMR.

Which actually makes some sense.

Them having pre-existing MMR, means the system has had a lot of time to figure out where they stand.
The system is less likely to match them up with a team significantly worse than them, because their potential deviation is lower.

Where as someone who’s fresher, has a much higher deviation.

Although, this also means it’s more likely that the fresher person will be pitted against someone who’s of significantly higher MMR (and therefore skill) than them.
As a way to “test” them, and try to figure out where they actually stand.

So, it should all balance out.

Whether it does or not, who knows.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Israel.7056:

Or perhaps there’s some legitimacy to some of the complaints.

Perhaps some people stuck in “elo hell” don’t individually deserve it.

If you’re stuck in Elo hell you deserve it.

90% of escaping Elo Hell is being good enough to work with a team. Once you can do that you are out.

If you cannot find a team and are pugging, it’s because you don’t know how to be a team player.

And as you go, you may even have to refine your team comp and get people that can do their job without being toxic.

The flaw here, is you’re not considering that they’ve combined 2 different match making rating systems!

Meaning, someone with 2200 MMR could have significant issues in Division 2, while someone with 1400 MMR could have an easier time climbing all the way to Division 5.

What everyone is complaining about, is that legitimately good, long time PvPers appear to be getting stuck in the same division for a long time.
Due to their pre-existing MMR.

Which actually makes some sense.

Them having pre-existing MMR, means the system has had a lot of time to figure out where they stand.
The system is less likely to match them up with a team significantly worse than them, because their potential deviation is lower.

Where as someone who’s fresher, has a much higher deviation.

Although, this also means it’s more likely that the fresher person will be pitted against someone who’s of significantly higher MMR (and therefore skill) than them.
As a way to “test” them, and try to figure out where they actually stand.

So, it should all balance out.

Whether it does or not, who knows.

Oh I’m not even beginning to consider the ranking here.

I’m just speaking generally. We’ve all realized mmr here is a travesty. The game is punishing you for having success as a team comp (more than it should, I should say).

I’m curious about your last point regarding how large the testing range for fresh players with high deviations is, though.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

If you’re stuck in Elo hell you deserve it.

90% of escaping Elo Hell is being good enough to work with a team. Once you can do that you are out.

If you cannot find a team and are pugging, it’s because you don’t know how to be a team player.

And as you go, you may even have to refine your team comp and get people that can do their job without being toxic.

[note: if you are solo queuing on purpose then you may not lament elohell]

I don’t think you have enough information to make these claims about percentages or what people do or don’t deserve.

There could be some very good players who are stuck right now.

Israel.7056:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

If you’re stuck in Elo hell you deserve it.

90% of escaping Elo Hell is being good enough to work with a team. Once you can do that you are out.

If you cannot find a team and are pugging, it’s because you don’t know how to be a team player.

And as you go, you may even have to refine your team comp and get people that can do their job without being toxic.

[note: if you are solo queuing on purpose then you may not lament elohell]

I don’t think you have enough information to make these claims about percentages or what people do or don’t deserve.

There could be some very good players who are stuck right now.

Conceded. I don’t have the info to make this claim in the slightest. I did however want to draw attention to the fact that escaping elohell requires you:

• work with a team
• be good as a part of a team

you cannot solo out of elo hell, especially here. the matchmaker actively attempts to curb your winrate and the only way you can avoid it is by minimizing the chances that youll be sandbagged/ a sandbag yourself.

It stands to reason that there are good players in the seas of mediocre rage-bait, so I’ll revise my opinion on that, immediately.

• I’d personally rather people not count on that though.

is what I probably needed to say.

Also: [Insert standard “Nope, 100% of people in Lo-hell deserve it”]

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Israel.7056:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

If you’re stuck in Elo hell you deserve it.

90% of escaping Elo Hell is being good enough to work with a team. Once you can do that you are out.

If you cannot find a team and are pugging, it’s because you don’t know how to be a team player.

And as you go, you may even have to refine your team comp and get people that can do their job without being toxic.

[note: if you are solo queuing on purpose then you may not lament elohell]

I don’t think you have enough information to make these claims about percentages or what people do or don’t deserve.

There could be some very good players who are stuck right now.

Conceded. I don’t have the info to make this claim in the slightest. I did however want to draw attention to the fact that escaping elohell requires you:

• work with a team
• be good as a part of a team

you cannot solo out of elo hell, especially here. the matchmaker actively attempts to curb your winrate and the only way you can avoid it is by minimizing the chances that youll be sandbagged/ a sandbag yourself.

It stands to reason that there are good players in the seas of mediocre rage-bait, so I’ll revise my opinion on that, immediately.

• I’d personally rather people not count on that though.

is what I probably needed to say.

Also: [Insert standard “Nope, 100% of people in Lo-hell deserve it”]

Except it really is unfair.

I remember seeing a picture of someones first ranked game against a full premade Abjured (this is like week 2 of the season). Just recently someone posted that they got 3 amber players, against a full 5 ruby team.

Hell, just last night fighting match after match of ESL players, we suddenly got a game we absolutely dominated. Turns out, the entire opposing team as all sapphire. We were 2 diamonds and a ruby premade and they were all sapphire solo Qers? HOW?!

The fact is, the system really is busted and there is proof of it.

I don’t mind if it means lower queue times, but the issue is the opposing team gets a pip loss because of the completely unfair match making. The pip brackets really needs to be split into 3 divisions instead of 4.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Except it really is unfair.

I remember seeing a picture of someones first ranked game against a full premade Abjured (this is like week 2 of the season). Just recently someone posted that they got 3 amber players, against a full 5 ruby team.

Hell, just last night fighting match after match of ESL players, we suddenly got a game we absolutely dominated. Turns out, the entire opposing team as all sapphire. We were 2 diamonds and a ruby premade and they were all sapphire solo Qers? HOW?!

The fact is, the system really is busted and there is proof of it.

I don’t mind if it means lower queue times, but the issue is the opposing team gets a pip loss because of the completely unfair match making. The pip brackets really needs to be split into 3 divisions instead of 4.

Theoretically, algorithms are supposed to consider this unfairness when awarding pips. The chart in the thread Evan last posted in should clear things up. The problem is that a game ends in a binary win/loss yet it’s the score that awards the pips, not the win/loss. Fun part is that MMR comes from win/loss and then becomes a factor for pip awards.

From looking at the chart, the best way to advance is to often have 0-19% chance of winning and scoring between 400-499 points in a loss. That will award you 2 pips, and (most likely) lower your MMR so that you you have less of a chance beating the next team you play, possibly increasing your pip gain or making the range of players you gain extra pips from greater. So, starting with a low MMR doesn’t just increase your chance of playing against a bad team, it literally increases your pip gain because of the unfair matches.

There is a real aspect behind “elo hell”, its not just a psychological phenomena. It exists, because GW2 PvP is mainly a group skill game, meaning that your individual skill can be really high, but if you are in a bad group OR your group skills (team play, coordination) are bad, you will lose and play together with people, who have a much lower individual skill. This leads to frustration and can establish a “devil circle”, since this frustration might cause you getting worse in your group skill (basically the “kitten off team attitude”) and thus leading to more lost games (thus getting paired with worser players, and so on).
This can be prevented by
a) a periodically (each season) reset of mmr.
b) form/join a team

Laodike.8640:

There is a real aspect behind “elo hell”, its not just a psychological phenomena. It exists, because GW2 PvP is mainly a group skill game, meaning that your individual skill can be really high, but if you are in a bad group OR your group skills (team play, coordination) are bad, you will lose and play together with people, who have a much lower individual skill. This leads to frustration and can establish a “devil circle”, since this frustration might cause you getting worse in your group skill (basically the “kitten off team attitude”) and thus leading to more lost games (thus getting paired with worser players, and so on).
This can be prevented by
a) a periodically (each season) reset of mmr.
b) form/join a team

You realise this works both ways right? There is no justification for ‘elo hell’ because what can happen to you can and will happen to your opponents too. It’s stupid thinking that the system works against you and you lost because of it.

So many people thinking that they are entitled to progress through divisions with the introduction of leagues if they play enough games. No, you are not. Having a losing streak? Can’t progress to the next division? That’s just your skill cap and where you belong then. Deal with it.

ReaperJr.5967:

So many people thinking that they are entitled to progress through divisions with the introduction of leagues if they play enough games. No, you are not. Having a losing streak? Can’t progress to the next division? That’s just your skill cap and where you belong then. Deal with it.

This would be true in a 5-players premade vs premade scenario only. GW1 GvG style.