Guild Wars 2

Scrapper is still one of the most annoying classes to fight even after their nerfs. They can’t chase and kill but their sustain and on point pressure is ridiculous. Not to mention daze spam, which is something Druids have had to give up/lose to maintain their sustain. And in conquest, getting people off point and not dieing is what’s most important.

BlackBeard.2873:

He is saying in comparison to the other , also OP builds (he listed symbolic DH and Druid), as if those are a good point of comparison.

Yea, the pressure is insane if you compare it to almost everything, but if you compare it to the other classes that are also dominating (and destroying viability of other builds), its par for the course.

5G lives in a world where it is ok for scrapper to be OP, b/c a few other classes are OP too. Ignore the fact that many of the OP stuff is completely stifling all creativity, and frankly, fun for most players. I mean, if you have 500 million dollars, and compare yourself to Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, you might even complain about being poor. Ignore the fact that you are objectively more well off than 99.9% of the others.

Poor Revenants, Condi Mesmers, Thieves, Necros, they are practically dumpster trash when compared with the god powers of bruisers, Kappa.

Tfw inter class balance is good to where all professions can be built around and used in a competitive comp, but everyone too busy making posts on DH or Scrapper cause they play GW2 like a Runescape classic and just lock in to people on melee and fight to the death.

marisgard.8715:

I just hate the protection uptime that Scrapper has, its unnecessary to have permanent protection and regen at the same time, then we have the Elixir S trait, some take double Elixir S, Moa is annoying too… Zzz… They’re ‘OK’, whats not fine is how much sustain they have, takes 2 or 3 to take down 1, they can bunker a point almost indefenitely and do disgusting damage

Elixer S is a death sentence if you have conditions on you.

Would you mind sharing this OP build?

For future discussion regarding damage coefficients, examine this claim:

The engineer got a super overpowered attack with (10x) 890 base damage and a 2.5 scaling!

WITHOUT RECHARGE!

And it cleaves!

And it applies 2 seconds of burning!

And it does 10% more damage against burning targets!

And it got 450 range!

Now guess which skill im talking about. Also try remember the last time you ever where killed as a result of this skill and how widespread its use is. Now ask yourself why? Apply this reasoning when discussing the damage on the hammer.

miriforst.1290:

For future discussion regarding damage coefficients, examine this claim:

The engineer got a super overpowered attack with (10x) 890 base damage and a 2.5 scaling!

WITHOUT RECHARGE!

And it cleaves!

And it applies 2 seconds of burning!

And it does 10% more damage against burning targets!

And it got 450 range!

Sounds insane, hope it gets nerfed asap, Kappa

FiveGauge.1357:

miriforst.1290:

For future discussion regarding damage coefficients, examine this claim:

The engineer got a super overpowered attack with (10x) 890 base damage and a 2.5 scaling!

WITHOUT RECHARGE!

And it cleaves!

And it applies 2 seconds of burning!

And it does 10% more damage against burning targets!

And it got 450 range!

Sounds insane, hope it gets nerfed asap, Kappa

That weapon doesn’t tie defensive skills to high damaging skills as well as CCs that’s the issue with hammer.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

FiveGauge.1357:

miriforst.1290:

For future discussion regarding damage coefficients, examine this claim:

The engineer got a super overpowered attack with (10x) 890 base damage and a 2.5 scaling!

WITHOUT RECHARGE!

And it cleaves!

And it applies 2 seconds of burning!

And it does 10% more damage against burning targets!

And it got 450 range!

Sounds insane, hope it gets nerfed asap, Kappa

That weapon doesn’t tie defensive skills to high damaging skills as well as CCs that’s the issue with hammer.

That weapon is also very underpowered despite its stated high coefficient.

Velimere.7685:

That weapon is also very underpowered despite its stated high coefficient.

It’s not underpowered, rather just intended to be a high concentration of Scrapper’s power budget. Explaining further below

BlaqueFyre.5678:

That weapon doesn’t tie defensive skills to high damaging skills as well as CCs that’s the issue with hammer.

It keeps coming around to this absolute statement that: “no ability can have defense and offense at the same time, or it’s an issue”, which is a nonsensical statement.

We see lots of professions having very key abilities that are a huge concentration of their overall power, and combine offense and defense. I feel Thief and Rev are pretty skillful and balanced professions, despite Bound, Vault, Unrelenting Assault, Surge of the Mists, all extremely good examples that combine offense and defense.

A profession can have most of their profession’s strength coming from few abilties, one weapon, or one traitline, or profession mechanic, and this is intended. Shifting Engineer from many streams of damage sources from kits, and towards a single damage source in Hammer, and Gyros to provide defensive utility exactly what the intended vision for Scrapper is.

Because now the Scrapper is designed around relying on one single damage source (Hammer) instead of many (multiple kits), Hammer is very compact in filling the offensive/defensive gap created.

In the context of this discussion, (PvP Profession Balance) Scrapper Hammer filling multiple holes in a build and being very concentrated in budget is not an issue until a good argument is made about the Scrapper performing in unintended ways like being too good compared to others at the same roles.

It’s all good, dude, no need to stress about the individual skills, just focus on the big picture in profession balance.

FiveGauge.1357:

Velimere.7685:

That weapon is also very underpowered despite its stated high coefficient.

It’s not underpowered, rather just intended to be a high concentration of Scrapper’s power budget. Explaining further below

BlaqueFyre.5678:

That weapon doesn’t tie defensive skills to high damaging skills as well as CCs that’s the issue with hammer.

It keeps coming around to this absolute statement that: “no ability can have defense and offense at the same time, or it’s an issue”, which is a nonsensical statement.

We see lots of professions having very key abilities that are a huge concentration of their overall power, and combine offense and defense. I feel Thief and Rev are pretty skillful and balanced professions, despite Bound, Vault, Unrelenting Assault, Surge of the Mists, all extremely good examples that combine offense and defense.

A profession can have most of their profession’s strength coming from few abilties, one weapon, or one traitline, or profession mechanic, and this is intended. Shifting Engineer from many streams of damage sources from kits, and towards a single damage source in Hammer, and Gyros to provide defensive utility exactly what the intended vision for Scrapper is.

Because now the Scrapper is designed around relying on one single damage source (Hammer) instead of many (multiple kits), Hammer is very compact in filling the offensive/defensive gap created.

In the context of this discussion, (PvP Profession Balance) Scrapper Hammer filling multiple holes in a build and being very concentrated in budget is not an issue until a good argument is made about the Scrapper performing in unintended ways like being too good compared to others at the same roles.

It’s all good, dude, no need to stress about the individual skills, just focus on the big picture in profession balance.

Yes but rev and thief have to have glassy stats to get decent damage from there main burst skills. Let’s take Vault being the highest damaging skill that has an evade frame for a 1/4 second of the total 1/2 cast, uses over a bird of their available resource pool, is highly telegraphed and has long aftercast, and still only has a 2.25 damage coefficient. While the other attack range from .65 damage coefficient to 1.67.

Now let’s look at a skill that Engie has that’s similar to vault. rocket charge gives you a 1 second evade, on a 1 3/4 cast that has a 3.0 damage coefficient that can hit up to 3 times on up to 5 people

And then you have Thunderclap which Stuns, cause Vulnerability, hits 5 times and has a 3.78 damage coefficient.

scrapper hammers lowest coefficient is a .8 on auto attack, while thief has a .65 for AAs. The second lowest Engie have on hammer is a 1.25 that is tied to a block that also stacks 10 Vulnerability, you have 2 Skills under 2 damage coefficients on top of all of your passive sustain and yet you are “balanced” how come you are allowed to take Tanky stats and deal good damage on top of all your damage mitigation but classes like thief can’t? Where they have to give all or nothing into damage?

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. You drawing conclusions on what abilities are superior without even factoring attack speed, number of hits the damage is spread between.

PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and the fact that Scrappers aren’t supposed to be chasing people around with a Hammer in conquest.

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. They aren’t based on PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and what the Scrapper is good at (it’s not chasing people around with Hammer).

Above average coefficients are when they have the extra rider affects on the damaging skills, and now with Anet willing to split pve and PvP balance they can lower the damage coefficients without impacting pve gameplay.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. They aren’t based on PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and what the Scrapper is good at (it’s not chasing people around with Hammer).

Above average coefficients are when they have the extra rider affects on the damaging skills, and now with Anet willing to split pve and PvP balance they can lower the damage coefficients without impacting pve gameplay.

For a Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet, 300k damage in a match is good, 400k is great, and 500k is amazing. The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. They aren’t based on PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and what the Scrapper is good at (it’s not chasing people around with Hammer).

Above average coefficients are when they have the extra rider affects on the damaging skills, and now with Anet willing to split pve and PvP balance they can lower the damage coefficients without impacting pve gameplay.

For a Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet, 300k damage in a match is good, 400k is great, and 500k is amazing. The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

Which is similar overall damage as say a rev or Thief with marauders. The overall recount doesn’t mean much at the end of a map, there are a lot of DHs and Necros and a few eles using clerics that reach those number last season without doing any real damage against players.

Like with the Ele you could do a lot of damage on the overall damage recap without killing any one or being a threat to any player .

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. They aren’t based on PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and what the Scrapper is good at (it’s not chasing people around with Hammer).

Above average coefficients are when they have the extra rider affects on the damaging skills, and now with Anet willing to split pve and PvP balance they can lower the damage coefficients without impacting pve gameplay.

For a Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet, 300k damage in a match is good, 400k is great, and 500k is amazing. The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

Which is similar overall damage as say a rev or Thief with marauders.

Nope. Read my reply again:

Velimere.7685:

The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

there are a lot of DHs and Necros and a few eles using clerics that reach those number last season without doing any real damage against players.

Like with the Ele you could do a lot of damage on the overall damage recap without killing any one or being a threat to any player .

That is exactly the point being made against you. Thank you for agreeing with it.

High coefficients don’t matter much when they’re only giving you small bursts of damage or decent cleave or on-point (small point) pressure. A Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet shouldn’t be killing you in a 1v1 unless you’re refusing to disengage a small point, and even then he still has his hard counters.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. They aren’t based on PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and what the Scrapper is good at (it’s not chasing people around with Hammer).

Above average coefficients are when they have the extra rider affects on the damaging skills, and now with Anet willing to split pve and PvP balance they can lower the damage coefficients without impacting pve gameplay.

For a Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet, 300k damage in a match is good, 400k is great, and 500k is amazing. The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

Which is similar overall damage as say a rev or Thief with marauders.

Nope. Read my reply again:

Velimere.7685:

The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

there are a lot of DHs and Necros and a few eles using clerics that reach those number last season without doing any real damage against players.

Like with the Ele you could do a lot of damage on the overall damage recap without killing any one or being a threat to any player .

That is exactly the point being made against you. Thank you for agreeing with it.

High coefficients don’t matter much when they’re only giving you small bursts of damage or decent cleave or on-point (small point) pressure. A Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet shouldn’t be killing you in a 1v1 unless you’re refusing to disengage a small point, and even then he still has his hard counters.

The problem is the high damage they have with the sustain and defensive options tied to the same skills, learn how to understand those concepts, you are using a amulet that provides crap for dps on any other class but scrapper while high dps classes have to run full glass to hit for equivalent damage with out the defensive options on the same skills.

I can burst someone for 12- 20k and kill any target on my thief which no defensive options on those attacks which is great but I only do on average 200k- 400k on the recap, again the old clerics Ele could do high damage over 8-9 minutes due to Aoe but low damage overall, using the recap as a justification or damage meter is very stupid it proves absolutely nothing. Scrappers can 1v1 most classes on point pretty effectively and kill most match ups since most of the opposition have to run glass amulets to do enough damage to even make a dent in the Scrappers health pool, and if you try to kite with range most classes have projectiles which the scrapper negates those on pretty short CD.

and Scrappers only hard counter is a reaper that’s it 1 out of 9 classes….. And the only reason is the amount of unblockable and the corruption attacks.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

and Scrappers only hard counter is a reaper that’s it 1 out of 9 classes….. And the only reason is the amount of unblockable and the corruption attacks.

Reading your posts one would get the idea that engi’s are dominating the meta both in normal ranked play as well as the pros, yet its not happening. You seem to be making statements about the theoretical damage output and sustain of engis from looking at a spreadsheet rather than evaluating whats happening in practice.

Of course the rez power is a real problem with scrappers (imo it should rez maybe half as fast so its not useless but not that OP either) but what i hate the most about them is the gyro destruct.
Why should it daze and do like 3k dmg in AoE (to marauders) when it is killed? It should only have this ability when the scrapper manually destroys it and not when it is killed by other people.

morrolan.9608:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

and Scrappers only hard counter is a reaper that’s it 1 out of 9 classes….. And the only reason is the amount of unblockable and the corruption attacks.

Reading your posts one would get the idea that engi’s are dominating the meta both in normal ranked play as well as the pros, yet its not happening. You seem to be making statements about the theoretical damage output and sustain of engis from looking at a spreadsheet rather than evaluating whats happening in practice.

Let’s see when I get hit by an Engie on average non crit is over 4K on a crit 7k. When I hit an Engie with all of my damage modifiers it hits for about 1.4-2k on a crit…..

And my class has to be fully invested in damage and damage modifiers to be effective on other classes I can hit anywhere from 3-6k on a crit

Now mix the engies damage with all of their CCs and Defenses I am getting hit a lot more than I can hit him.

morrolan.9608:

Reading your posts one would get the idea that engi’s are dominating the meta both in normal ranked play as well as the pros, yet its not happening. You seem to be making statements about the theoretical damage output and sustain of engis from looking at a spreadsheet rather than evaluating whats happening in practice.

Yeah, I believe he said Scrapper “kills” most things 1v1 lol.

Yes, a scrapper is a very tough fight for a thief (or daredevil) going power.

I think i said this long ago about engineers vs thieves- “Its mighty glacier vs fragile speedster”.

If you stand around for the full duration of thunderclap and dont take a single step backwards when shock shield is used you will have a bad time. But as an offensive bruiser (less focus on team support etc.) its expected to make short work of a full glass player brute forcing the situation in the optimal engagement range of that player (which is very, very short). Now the thing here is that one of the prime resources of the DD/thief, namely mobility fails to deliver if you want to take a point fast from a scrapper, the odds are stacked against you from the core design of these professions, one rely on people getting in your face and recklessly assault, the other require mobility to survive. If we balance the scrapper (or the engineer) on the basis of 1vs1ing a glassy melee thief on point there wont be anything left in that smoking crater unless they entirely revamp the scrapper to fill another role.

Its a bit like when, say a profession relying on boons to stay alive meets a necromancer.

P.S. Also this is why i hate conquest being the focal point of all balance, the engineer always end up as the bunkery/bruisery node control guy which fits perfectly in a mode about controlling nodes. And then they nerf us everywhere for that. Until recently at least.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The problem is the high damage they have with the sustain and defensive options tied to the same skills,

You mean like a lot of skills that a lot of Elite Specializations have? Yeah.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

learn how to understand those concepts,

Indeed you should seeing as they’re not exclusive to the Scrapper.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

you are using a amulet that provides crap for dps on any other class but scrapper while high dps classes have to run full glass to hit for equivalent damage with out the defensive options on the same skills.

That is 100% false; you need to stop lying and see my attachment. I get comparable numbers to Scrapper as Revenant using Paladin’s Amulet as well for the umpteenth time.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I can burst someone for 12- 20k and kill any target on my thief which no defensive options on those attacks which is great but I only do on average 200k- 400k on the recap,

I can average just as much using staff on Daredevil and Paladin’s Amulet too.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

again the old clerics Ele could do high damage over 8-9 minutes due to Aoe but low damage overall,

That’s an oxymoron seeing as 8-9 minutes is more than half of a match. Also, 300k was good for the Auramancer Tempest using Cleric’s Amulet, and AoE and cleave (PBAoE) is what makes up the majority of a Scrapper’s damage too. How about that?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

using the recap as a justification or damage meter is very stupid it proves absolutely nothing.

Fact: To state that empirical evidence proves nothing in and of itself is nothing short of uneducated and 100% false.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Scrappers can 1v1 most classes on point pretty effectively and kill most match ups since most of the opposition have to run glass amulets to do enough damage to even make a dent in the Scrappers health pool, and if you try to kite with range most classes have projectiles which the scrapper negates those on pretty short CD.

Berserker, Dragonhunter, Druid, Herald, Reaper, and Tempest either counter Scrapper or hold it to standstill on a point. That’s most classes, so you’re wrong.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

and Scrappers only hard counter is a reaper that’s it 1 out of 9 classes….. And the only reason is the amount of unblockable and the corruption attacks.

See above.

Scrapper is an easy counter, a good scrapper? Not so much. Someone who is good at something makes him/her seem impossible to fight. Maybe you just haven’t accepted the fact you’re not as good as you think you are? They have received a nerf to their sustain and trust me, they’re no longer OP. I can take one down in seconds with my necro and warrior. When I play scrapper, I’m the mvp bc I know how to play and know how to play against other classes.

@BlaqueFyre As a thief you should never engage a scrapper on point, unless to shortly hold the decap for a teammate to arrive. It sounds like you are just trying to 1v1 every class you run into, which is quite dumb as a thief. Despite the fact that you are running staff, i’m sure, because that is the only thing you use in your examples.

If there should be any argument against scrapper it should be the rez power and the INSANE amounts of passives.

Just seen how 4 scrapers from my team lose a fight to 4 DH, scrapers with all their reflects\retal\sustain died from 4 DH. How? Dont tell me about traps it was on legacy mid)

I don’t fight on point, the amount of Aoe and CC on point is a pure death sentence, I don’t 1v1 classes unless I know I can burst them in less than 10 seconds.

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats. Yet say a full glass thief will only get aroun2-4K on a crit with more setup and being single target. There is no reason for a class that has so much on point pretense to have the passive sustain as well as the amount of active mitigation on most of their weapon skill.

Right now the only classes I avoid in PvP matches are Eles and Scrappers, since 9/10 I will be punished just for attacking them, I don’t even have problems with DHs good or bad with my Thief build and I run around with 11k Hp and DHs are the Thieves main Hardcounter.

And serj if they were running the meta build the reflects would absolutely nothing against the DHs, which are easier to use than engies, in most cases, there are crap Engies out there too, I have killed a few with AAs before.

Maybe I will go into PvP and try out scrapper to see how low of damage it really does.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro and scrapper runes

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2689*1.07*1.33*1.33)= 2863rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

You forgot to factor in defense from armor. That makes a huuuge difference considering no extra toughness from amulets. Unless your thief is wearing no armor for some reason?

Sins.4782:

You forgot to factor in defense from armor. That makes a huuuge difference considering no extra toughness from amulets. Unless your thief is wearing no armor for some reason?

Good catch I thought the numbers looked off, I am doing this from my phone and while on break from work will update numbers.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro.

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2625*1.33*1.33)= 3138 rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

Testing against Target Golem Medium proves your math is utterly erroneous.

Try again, Thief player.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro.

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2625*1.33*1.33)= 3138 rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

Testing against Target Golem Medium proves your math is utterly erroneous.

Try again, Thief player.

Provide proof then and I know you haven’t tested the damage in the last 3.5-4 hours , also medium test golem has 2322 armor which is more armor than the Thief does running meta marauders. So with that being the case

(1048*2225*3.78)/2322=3796 rounded up non crit average

((1048*2225*3.78)1.5)/2322=5694 rounded up crit average.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro.

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2625*1.33*1.33)= 3138 rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

Testing against Target Golem Medium proves your math is utterly erroneous.

Try again, Thief player.

Provide proof then and I know you haven’t tested the damage in the last 3.5-4 hours , also medium test golem has 2322 armor which is more armor than the Thief does running meta marauders. So with that being the case

(1048*2225*3.78)/2322=3796 rounded up non crit average

((1048*2225*3.78)1.5)/2322=5694 rounded up crit average.

Hold on… Are you crying about Thunderclap? Sorry, but your argument conveniently totals up each hit into one big number when it’s an AoE field that does its damage divided into 5 ticks for a total of 5 seconds to do all of its damage. Furthermore, you’d have to be a very bad player to stand in it for its entire duration. Go ahead and divide those numbers by 5 and suddenly your argument looks a lot less convincing in the realm of overpowered damage. A Revenant auto-attacking with quickness does more DPS.

yeah man I feel like DH is balanced as opposed to scrappers.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro.

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2625*1.33*1.33)= 3138 rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

Testing against Target Golem Medium proves your math is utterly erroneous.

Try again, Thief player.

Provide proof then and I know you haven’t tested the damage in the last 3.5-4 hours , also medium test golem has 2322 armor which is more armor than the Thief does running meta marauders. So with that being the case

(1048*2225*3.78)/2322=3796 rounded up non crit average

((1048*2225*3.78)1.5)/2322=5694 rounded up crit average.

Hold on… Are you crying about Thunderclap? Sorry, but your argument conveniently totals up each hit into one big number when it’s an AoE field that does its damage divided into 5 ticks for a total of 5 seconds to do all of its damage. Furthermore, you’d have to be a very bad player to stand in it for its entire duration. Go ahead and divide those numbers by 5 and suddenly your argument looks a lot less convincing in the realm of overpowered damage. A Revenant auto-attacking with quickness does more DPS.

Then that was a misunderstanding and my mistake, I thought coefficient was applied to each pulse and was not derived of all 5 pulses together.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro.

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2625*1.33*1.33)= 3138 rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

Testing against Target Golem Medium proves your math is utterly erroneous.

Try again, Thief player.

Provide proof then and I know you haven’t tested the damage in the last 3.5-4 hours , also medium test golem has 2322 armor which is more armor than the Thief does running meta marauders. So with that being the case

(1048*2225*3.78)/2322=3796 rounded up non crit average

((1048*2225*3.78)1.5)/2322=5694 rounded up crit average.

Hold on… Are you crying about Thunderclap? Sorry, but your argument conveniently totals up each hit into one big number when it’s an AoE field that does its damage divided into 5 ticks for a total of 5 seconds to do all of its damage. Furthermore, you’d have to be a very bad player to stand in it for its entire duration. Go ahead and divide those numbers by 5 and suddenly your argument looks a lot less convincing in the realm of overpowered damage. A Revenant auto-attacking with quickness does more DPS.

Then that was a misunderstanding and my mistake, I thought coefficient was applied to each pulse and was not derived of all 5 pulses together.

I don’t even know how you could come to such a baseless conclusion given any experience whatsoever actually fighting against a Scrapper. That was a real ethos killer.

Azukas.1426:

DH is EASY to play. Scrapper is, while easy too, a wee bit harder to play

With my own experience I can safely claim that scrapper is just as easy as DH (at least for me :P).
They both run on cheese but while DH has strong traps, engineer’s elite and engineer himself has a much wider skill variety (and less broken or underwhelming traits)
I say that the more buttons, the better and mobility with stealth is a great deal.
For example necro and scrapper.
Necro can be a HP sponge to tank and it is nice as long as they are standing their ground, but once you burst through their shroud, they have nothing left but pray that someone saves them or just die.
Now scrapper is not that tanky but has offensive and defensive skills both mixed in. On the other hand once a scrapper gets rekt hard, they’ll turn invincible and if they think they won’t make it, they just run away. It is also possible for them to escape on demand with stealth gyro.
We all know that having a possibility of disengaging from combat as we see fit is much more convenient than relying on your character being tanky (or your teammates) to survive an onslaught.
Thus skilled thieves can easily harass others, mesmers as well with their portal.

Mobility (+ stealth utility) > Sustain
Why is that? Sustain can be out-dpsed and CC’ed for better results. But once you manage to stay out of someone’s distance through mobility skills, it is much better to regroup with other teammates and strike once again without cooldown and even healed up. Yes I also considered that the enemy can also heal once you run away from him/her and clear up the cooldowns, but as long as they don’t kill you, they might find themselves in a very inconvenient situation of 2v1 combat after you weaken such an adversary to return moments later to finish the job.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Let’s see when I get hit by an Engie on average non crit is over 4K on a crit 7k.

Gimme some of that crack man, a scrapper crits for 4k in perfect conditions, and usually hits for 1~2k without crits

Sometimes it feels like people are thinking builds like mine where I go with alot of might and Merc amulet and no elixir S trait or skill with the meta build. Yes my build hits like a truck but for the tradeoff from that perfect sustain. Now I can play my build very well and does not die anyway but the damage I do is alot higher than the paladin meta.

Krysard.1364:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Let’s see when I get hit by an Engie on average non crit is over 4K on a crit 7k.

Gimme some of that crack man, a scrapper crits for 4k in perfect conditions, and usually hits for 1~2k without crits

It is because he, as many others, looked up the wiki instead of checking their damage log or even better try recreating it with a scrapper of their own (at the very least against dummies).

Thus you get damage values that are off by at least 2-5 times.

This is exactly why i gave my flamethrower example above, because most people whip out their calculator (if even that) and start theorizing without doing a reality check on something familiar.

For a thief example lets take pistol whip, which would then provide equal or more damage than his theorized 20-35k damage thunderclaps. I think people would have noticed 30k+ per pistol whips and flamethrower autos in tanky gear.

My entire point is that we see a ton of this stuff popping up with the scrapper balance discussions and as i said above that leads to errors of a magnitude 2-5x wrong.

I dont know if its because few people got an engineer on their account ( more classes than baseline slots), but please be resonable people.

Yes I pulled a potato, you win this time Engie overlords.

Just keep in mind that hyperbole, while adding that extra spice to an argument is a bit like salt. A bit of it makes the dish taste more, but too much and it ends up disgusting.

I have and playing all Classes in PVP and WvW. Some i have two, Condi and Power. My view about this: The biggest problem here are the wimps who cry constantly after nerfs.

Scrapper has been nerfed severely for like what, 3 times in a row now? Meanwhile Druid has the same amount of sustain, better cleansing, better access to quickness, ranged pressure, passive dps from pet and better stability, better immunity (signet of stone), similar res power, but yeah, scrapper is op.

Scrapper is somewhat sustainy, but supectible to high burst, cc lock (due to lack of stabi) and condi pressure and extremely easy to kite. The auto elixir S is very double edged since it can interrupt your heal, condi might still grill you while in it and any decent thief or rev will instagib you when you get of it with 25% now that healing turret has a cast time.

The only truly op thing on scrapper is the res potential with gyro res + and stealth gyro, but even there the ranger is on par with pet rez, aoe stealth and potential S&R.

Honestly, have you been playing in emerald exclusively or how the hell can you get it so kitten wrong? I can’t take this seriously at all.

Scraps don’t necessarily need a nerf or buff but their mechanics needs to revert back imo.

They converted their burst damages to attrition damages over time and called it a buff since it is a “5% dmg increase”. They did a similiar change to DH Longbow and nearly rendering the weapon useless because our bursts were removed.

Every class has that coordinated burst strike, I feel Engi lost his, tuning down his performance some but that’s just my 2cents. If a few people think he’s OP while others disagree, he’s probably near balanced.

Meta scrapper is just about making the most passive build that mostly takes away the best part of Engi (FYI KITS – 1 kit is just silly)

Start adding those elements back in and Engi is one of the best designed classes in the game at higher tiers. In fact I wish we saw more of it (elemental weapons for ele anyone?)

It’s not that great in this meta, it’s fine but not qq thread worthy

Chasind.3128:

Scrapper is an easy counter, a good scrapper? Not so much. Someone who is good at something makes him/her seem impossible to fight.

A good anything is hard/impossible to counter.

DH counters thief, I’d like to see the average sapphire DH try to fight sind
Rev counters DH, I’d like to the average rev try to take Tage even below 50% HP without getting a +1

Seriously, people should really stop careing about dmg coefficents and other useless stuff you cant influence. Thats what anet is doing, lol!
Just get a proper combat movement and you will see that scrapper is by no means op.

Scrapper is so easily kited, there isnt much he can do to stop you from running. All his answers to kiting are an already nerfed thunderclap, his glob shot(3 sec cripple) that misses like 75% outside of melee range and 1(!!!) good gapcloser(rocket charge). Maybe 180° turn to acid bomb if you wanna count this as a gap closer as well. But instead of learning a proper movement, people like to face tank scrappers at melee range and cry for nerfs on forums…

Activate your “free camera”, start using your left mouse button(which i feel like 75% of the players dont even know about) and kite the hell out of him, like against any melee class.
Seriously, the superbad movement of most players is basically the main reason why scrapper is still strong after all the nerfs we had to take.

Im by no means a super good player in terms of pure skill, but i easily sprint into legendary division each season just with lets say “battle awareness”. Like positioning, combat movement, rotations and all this stuff. And in my point of view, scrapper is the 1 class that suffers the most from opponents with a proper movement. He really doesnt need any more nerfs, people need to learn the game!
I dont wanna sound rude(english is not my mothertongue, so sorry if i do), but this is simply the truth.

Btw, here´s an old, but amazingly good website with tutorials about movement, rotations and all that stuff: http://qqmore.net/

Heres the one about kiting: http://qqmore.net/kiting/

Watch this, learn this and you will do a 100% better against everyone, but actually the most versus scrapper.