Guild Wars 2

DiogoSilva.7089:

You don’t need to tie an effect to a button to make it active. How active an effect is depends on active it demands the player to be. Effect = Button is a simple, effective way to do it, but not the only one.

In the case of Diamond Skin, it’s true that there is no button associated with it. But it needs to be maintained, and it can be counter-played. Anyone can nullify its effect, and the elementalist must work to get its effect back. This creates some sort of dancing between gaining and losing the effect, which is determined by the skill of the two combatants. This make the trait highly interactive and playable.

In comparison, passive traits like Dhuumfire are the opposite. They proc at pretty much anything that hits. They can’t be countered. They don’t require special or unique playing to be activated. They don’t depend on the player skill. They’re mindless and unhealthy to the game.

I would go as far as argue that skills like Enduring Pain are more passive than traits like Diamond Skin. Why? 1) Because the active maintenance required to make use of the Diamond Skin’s effect is far more demanding than simply prssing a single button. 2) Because once Endure Pain is activated, the opponent can’t do anything but wait until the effect ends, while the opportunity to counter-play Diamond skin is always there.

Let’s put it in simpler means and with different words: Diamond Skin is only a passive trait if no one attacks the elementalist.

^ Thank you. Someone gets it.

No one here is defending pure passive stuff like healing signet, signet of renewal, etc.
No one here is arguing that we should have more PvP abilities/traits that don’t actively engage the player.

Neuromancer.1653:

Fresh Air: The air attunement of the elementalist with its insane instant damage is another thing that leads to an unbalanced game in connection the recharge with fresh air…also in my opinion traits such as fresh air and diamond skin really destroy the elementalist’s playstyle…some time ago ele was used as an allrounder class that can be really supportive while dealing a nice amount of dmg which can be combined in spikes (buffing stealth, might) as well as for supporting allies (swiftness, heal)

Er, have you ever tried fresh air on an ele? It requires alot more depth gameplay then any other build in this game. Also insane instant damage? Are we playing the same game? A full glass ele (62% crit damage)that dies within 5 seconds will crit for 2-3k with Lightning strike. I think you are referring to s/d 1-2 damage? And still the problem with that build is not Fresh Air, but dubble arcane burst.

look outside the box..if they balance the mentioned things the counter classes of elementalist will get nerfed so an elementalist with instant huge burst will be unbalanced thats the reason i would remove or change the fresh air trait

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Fresh Air: The air attunement of the elementalist with its insane instant damage is another thing that leads to an unbalanced game in connection the recharge with fresh air…also in my opinion traits such as fresh air and diamond skin really destroy the elementalist’s playstyle…some time ago ele was used as an allrounder class that can be really supportive while dealing a nice amount of dmg which can be combined in spikes (buffing stealth, might) as well as for supporting allies (swiftness, heal)

Er, have you ever tried fresh air on an ele? It requires alot more depth gameplay then any other build in this game. Also insane instant damage? Are we playing the same game? A full glass ele (62% crit damage)that dies within 5 seconds will crit for 2-3k with Lightning strike. I think you are referring to s/d 1-2 damage? And still the problem with that build is not Fresh Air, but dubble arcane burst.

look outside the box..if they balance the mentioned things the counter classes of elementalist will get nerfed so an elementalist with instant huge burst will be unbalanced thats the reason i would remove or change the fresh air trait

What instant huge burst are you speaking about? Is it s/d 1-2? Problem is still not fresh air but dubble arcane utilities. And even then they barley have half of a backstab thiefs burst (out of stealth).

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Fresh Air: The air attunement of the elementalist with its insane instant damage is another thing that leads to an unbalanced game in connection the recharge with fresh air…also in my opinion traits such as fresh air and diamond skin really destroy the elementalist’s playstyle…some time ago ele was used as an allrounder class that can be really supportive while dealing a nice amount of dmg which can be combined in spikes (buffing stealth, might) as well as for supporting allies (swiftness, heal)

Er, have you ever tried fresh air on an ele? It requires alot more depth gameplay then any other build in this game. Also insane instant damage? Are we playing the same game? A full glass ele (62% crit damage)that dies within 5 seconds will crit for 2-3k with Lightning strike. I think you are referring to s/d 1-2 damage? And still the problem with that build is not Fresh Air, but dubble arcane burst.

look outside the box..if they balance the mentioned things the counter classes of elementalist will get nerfed so an elementalist with instant huge burst will be unbalanced thats the reason i would remove or change the fresh air trait

What instant huge burst are you speaking about? Is it s/d 1-2? Problem is still not fresh air but dubble arcane utilities. And even then they barley have half of a backstab thiefs burst (out of stealth).

i think we can all agree that the dmg of ele is fine it just needs more sustain against the current meta classes which would be achieved with the nerfs

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Fresh Air: The air attunement of the elementalist with its insane instant damage is another thing that leads to an unbalanced game in connection the recharge with fresh air…also in my opinion traits such as fresh air and diamond skin really destroy the elementalist’s playstyle…some time ago ele was used as an allrounder class that can be really supportive while dealing a nice amount of dmg which can be combined in spikes (buffing stealth, might) as well as for supporting allies (swiftness, heal)

Er, have you ever tried fresh air on an ele? It requires alot more depth gameplay then any other build in this game. Also insane instant damage? Are we playing the same game? A full glass ele (62% crit damage)that dies within 5 seconds will crit for 2-3k with Lightning strike. I think you are referring to s/d 1-2 damage? And still the problem with that build is not Fresh Air, but dubble arcane burst.

look outside the box..if they balance the mentioned things the counter classes of elementalist will get nerfed so an elementalist with instant huge burst will be unbalanced thats the reason i would remove or change the fresh air trait

What instant huge burst are you speaking about? Is it s/d 1-2? Problem is still not fresh air but dubble arcane utilities. And even then they barley have half of a backstab thiefs burst (out of stealth).

i think we can all agree that the dmg of ele is fine it just needs more sustain against the current meta classes which would be achieved with the nerfs

Not to be rude but I honestley dont think you have the slighest clue what the problem really is with s/d burst. Now belive me I dont like it either, but atleast Im not going to nerf every ele because of me not understanding what the core problem is. That would be Anet way of balancing (just look at the ele proffession). Instead of nerfing something you dont understand, nerf the actual problem. That has been stated since for ever now. Fresh air only provides eles with sustain damage, not a huge instant burst that you described. That comes from 9 abilitys an s/d ele does (that in some cases insta gib people). But the problem is not fresh air, its the dubble arcane utilities.

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Fresh Air: The air attunement of the elementalist with its insane instant damage is another thing that leads to an unbalanced game in connection the recharge with fresh air…also in my opinion traits such as fresh air and diamond skin really destroy the elementalist’s playstyle…some time ago ele was used as an allrounder class that can be really supportive while dealing a nice amount of dmg which can be combined in spikes (buffing stealth, might) as well as for supporting allies (swiftness, heal)

Er, have you ever tried fresh air on an ele? It requires alot more depth gameplay then any other build in this game. Also insane instant damage? Are we playing the same game? A full glass ele (62% crit damage)that dies within 5 seconds will crit for 2-3k with Lightning strike. I think you are referring to s/d 1-2 damage? And still the problem with that build is not Fresh Air, but dubble arcane burst.

look outside the box..if they balance the mentioned things the counter classes of elementalist will get nerfed so an elementalist with instant huge burst will be unbalanced thats the reason i would remove or change the fresh air trait

What instant huge burst are you speaking about? Is it s/d 1-2? Problem is still not fresh air but dubble arcane utilities. And even then they barley have half of a backstab thiefs burst (out of stealth).

i think we can all agree that the dmg of ele is fine it just needs more sustain against the current meta classes which would be achieved with the nerfs

Not to be rude but I honestley dont think you have the slighest clue what the problem really is with s/d burst. Now belive me I dont like it either, but atleast Im not going to nerf every ele because of me not understanding what the core problem is. That would be Anet way of balancing (just look at the ele proffession). Instead of nerfing something you dont understand, nerf the actual problem. That has been stated since for ever now. Fresh air only provides eles with sustain damage, not a huge instant burst that you described. That comes from 9 abilitys an s/d ele does (that in some cases insta gib people). But the problem is not fresh air, its the dubble arcane utilities.

i am talking about the nerfs from other classes not the ele nerf

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Fresh Air: The air attunement of the elementalist with its insane instant damage is another thing that leads to an unbalanced game in connection the recharge with fresh air…also in my opinion traits such as fresh air and diamond skin really destroy the elementalist’s playstyle…some time ago ele was used as an allrounder class that can be really supportive while dealing a nice amount of dmg which can be combined in spikes (buffing stealth, might) as well as for supporting allies (swiftness, heal)

Er, have you ever tried fresh air on an ele? It requires alot more depth gameplay then any other build in this game. Also insane instant damage? Are we playing the same game? A full glass ele (62% crit damage)that dies within 5 seconds will crit for 2-3k with Lightning strike. I think you are referring to s/d 1-2 damage? And still the problem with that build is not Fresh Air, but dubble arcane burst.

look outside the box..if they balance the mentioned things the counter classes of elementalist will get nerfed so an elementalist with instant huge burst will be unbalanced thats the reason i would remove or change the fresh air trait

What instant huge burst are you speaking about? Is it s/d 1-2? Problem is still not fresh air but dubble arcane utilities. And even then they barley have half of a backstab thiefs burst (out of stealth).

i think we can all agree that the dmg of ele is fine it just needs more sustain against the current meta classes which would be achieved with the nerfs

Not to be rude but I honestley dont think you have the slighest clue what the problem really is with s/d burst. Now belive me I dont like it either, but atleast Im not going to nerf every ele because of me not understanding what the core problem is. That would be Anet way of balancing (just look at the ele proffession). Instead of nerfing something you dont understand, nerf the actual problem. That has been stated since for ever now. Fresh air only provides eles with sustain damage, not a huge instant burst that you described. That comes from 9 abilitys an s/d ele does (that in some cases insta gib people). But the problem is not fresh air, its the dubble arcane utilities.

i am talking about the nerfs from other classes not the ele nerf

I see my bad, but honestly I dont like it as mutch as you. Im just trying to explain what the problem really is with s/d burst. Dubble arcane utilities promotes brain dead gameplay, as they do instant damage and cant be read from any animation (they just do instant damage) promotes unwanted gameplay.

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Sensotix.4106:

Neuromancer.1653:

Fresh Air: The air attunement of the elementalist with its insane instant damage is another thing that leads to an unbalanced game in connection the recharge with fresh air…also in my opinion traits such as fresh air and diamond skin really destroy the elementalist’s playstyle…some time ago ele was used as an allrounder class that can be really supportive while dealing a nice amount of dmg which can be combined in spikes (buffing stealth, might) as well as for supporting allies (swiftness, heal)

Er, have you ever tried fresh air on an ele? It requires alot more depth gameplay then any other build in this game. Also insane instant damage? Are we playing the same game? A full glass ele (62% crit damage)that dies within 5 seconds will crit for 2-3k with Lightning strike. I think you are referring to s/d 1-2 damage? And still the problem with that build is not Fresh Air, but dubble arcane burst.

look outside the box..if they balance the mentioned things the counter classes of elementalist will get nerfed so an elementalist with instant huge burst will be unbalanced thats the reason i would remove or change the fresh air trait

What instant huge burst are you speaking about? Is it s/d 1-2? Problem is still not fresh air but dubble arcane utilities. And even then they barley have half of a backstab thiefs burst (out of stealth).

i think we can all agree that the dmg of ele is fine it just needs more sustain against the current meta classes which would be achieved with the nerfs

Not to be rude but I honestley dont think you have the slighest clue what the problem really is with s/d burst. Now belive me I dont like it either, but atleast Im not going to nerf every ele because of me not understanding what the core problem is. That would be Anet way of balancing (just look at the ele proffession). Instead of nerfing something you dont understand, nerf the actual problem. That has been stated since for ever now. Fresh air only provides eles with sustain damage, not a huge instant burst that you described. That comes from 9 abilitys an s/d ele does (that in some cases insta gib people). But the problem is not fresh air, its the dubble arcane utilities.

i am talking about the nerfs from other classes not the ele nerf

I see my bad, but honestly I dont like it as mutch as you. Im just trying to explain what the problem really is with s/d burst. Dubble arcane utilities promotes brain dead gameplay, as they do instant damage and cant be read from any animation (they just do instant damage) promotes unwanted gameplay.

i agree here and see your point! there needs to be found a solution for this as well

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Please stop ruining this constructive thread sensotix created! you told your point, disagree’ers told their point, let it rest now (as your logic is already).

Offering counter-arguments does not make a thread less constructive, it does the opposite. What you seem to want is for everyone who disagree with what you think to get out, which would only lead to biased discussion. I don’t think anyone wants that.

@ Fresh Air comments

The problem with this build is not Fresh Air. In fact, Fresh Air does not make the instant burst any stronger, just more frequent. It’s a good trait as it is, because it allows elementalists to specialize more on a single attunement. The problem with the build lies on how many instant skills an elementalist can stack at the same time. If we look at them individually, they’re not very strong, but all of them add up.

Scepter’s Lightning Strike, and electric discharge’s trait effect, add about 4-5k damage together. With Fresh Air, that’s every five seconds. This is rather reasonable considering that elementalist’s sustain damage is poor. But when we add in the arcane skills, it starts going too high.

My suggestion for this is to slightly change the functionality behind arcane skills. Keep them instant-cast, but add a delay in damage that can be countered-back (with a dodge, a block, etc). And, because arcanes aren’t individually anything special, I would compensate this nerf with a small cooldown decrease.

• Arcane Blast: Projectile speed decreased. Cooldown decreased from 20 seconds to 15 seconds.
• Arcane Wave: Extended animation. Only deals damage one second after. Cooldown decreased from 30 seconds to 25/ 20 seconds.
• Arcane Wave (alternatively): Less damage. Cooldown decrease as well.

I wouldn’t suggest decreasing the damage for both skills, though. And with all of this, arcane skills would still deal good damage by themselves (assuming none of them get nerfed in this department), and both of them would have slightly more valuable combo finishers, while not being as strong and “uncounterable” as they are while stacked all together with air scepter’s instant skills.

Best of both worlds?

I agree with everything (except with vulnerability change, it’s fine like it is now, 2% is too much and chill and poison are fine too).

Only two things:

- Necro. Imho Necro has too much damage for his survivability and i’m afraid in the next patch this aspect will be more relevant.
- Warrior. I agree with everyone healing signet is OP now and need a little nerf (15-20%) but we need to be carefull to not push warrior away from the meta like in the old months. Now a Warrior is a fake berserker class because with zerker he has a very good survivability and very good damage (Longbow in a conquest mode is a very strong weapon).

I think it is important to also look at these proposed changes from a PvE standpoint.

A few things that come up from a PvE-ers perspective:

Elementalist changes

The argument you are making here for a change to fresh air is that it deviates from the idea of an all-round ele. The problem that I have with this reasoning is having traits like these actually allows for more types of play from an elementalist than just the regular all-round attunement swapping one.

- Now why is this important from a PvE perspective?

Because an Ele in PvE can’t just swap to another profession. It takes a while to level and gear a character. So if all-round is the only type of ele you can play, it can become dull after a while. Having different styles of play available is necessary for all professions. (And through traits like fresh air, they have this type of thing available.)

Fresh air and Diamond skin are in my eyes not ‘destroying’ the ele playstyle, they’re ‘creating’ new ele playstyles. (Although there aren’t many PvE situations yet where these shine unfortunately)

Halting Strike

If the damage on this is clearly overpowered, then it probably needs a nerf. A problem with interrupts in PvE however, is that things need to deal damage to be valuable. So if you want to do some interrupting in PvE, you better make sure that your build also deals damage. Halting Strike allows this. I’d say it is a pretty important trait to the interrupters viability in PvE. (and even then it’s not particularly useful in defiant heavy situations)

Poison

In line with the previous note: things need to deal damage to be valuable in PvE. If poison doesn’t deal damage it does… nothing… in PvE. Since most enemies do not heal.

Chill

Monsters don’t care much for skill recharge it seems. Slows however do have a clear use. (And even then, not enough) Without the slow, I don’t think we would see much of a difference between chilled and not-chilled foes in PvE.

Vulnerability

Stacking vulnerability up to 25 is very easy in PvE. If this results in the party dealing 50% more damage instead of 25%, it will have a pretty big impact on boss fights. Many bosses are already dealt with in a couple of seconds by berserker groups before their abilities come into play. This would make that even more likely. (Offense is the best defense) Maybe if vulnerability becomes harder to apply or has less duration though… but even then, I’m not so sure this would be a good move.

The rest

Seems ok for PvE. Some are pretty beneficial there aswell, such as tempering the warrior, more ranger pet control and less random procs on runes.

One final note on ‘passive’ skills and traits though:

Many PvE players are much more casual than the hardcore PvP crowd. They don’t master their keybinds, they click their utilities, they see loads of monsters and don’t remember all their tells. Keeping track of everything is quite a challenge to them already and some passive skills/traits give them a bit of breathing room.

If traits went from ‘+5% damage while wielding daggers’ to ‘gain 2 might for 2 seconds when using heartseeker’ and from ‘Immunity to conditions below 25% health’ to ‘Immunity to conditions for 2 seconds after using a gadget.’ these changes would be glorious for those who relish playing their characters to the absolute limit of their skills. But they would make combat very complicated to the players that don’t play every day. Or those that spend half their time making jokes and appreciating the landscape. (And half of that time in downed state.)

And because of this, I think that there should be quite a few passive traits and skills for people to play with. And they shouldn’t be bad, otherwise skilled players, that don’t run passive skills could run the content with ease (which would make it boring).

However, they shouldn’t be too strong either, making the more difficult active skills not worth the effort.

Oh… and don’t overlook the ‘active’ playstyles created by seemingly ‘passive’ traits.

Guys, its simple , go play an ele fresh air and then come and tell me how good you were. When you will miss the initial burst ( that you will ) and you have 0 utils to escape or do something useful the war/necro/xxx class will just sneeze at you and you will die from pneumonia.
As Neuromancer says the instant arcane utils are the problem. ( for me is not actually i’m a zerker ele and i have died only once from the initial burst of a fresh air ele and that was because i didn’t see him coming and i was already low in health).
I dont know why you guys have started the QQ about diamond skin before the skill is tested in ACTUAL fights. Yes yes passive play sucks, i know this well because as an ele i’m the victim of this. But why NOW you all must try to correct the world because some MINOR (for my opinion) buffs comes to ele whilst the passive necro/war/ranger etc play is on its peak months now is very strange. For short : Cut the drama. We will see when the actual skill is live. And an advice to all … DROP the rabid amulet and adapt if you can’t eat 1500 of the health of an ele. I adapted when this horrible meta came.
Peace!

I disagree on Halting Strike.

With the game filled with peanut-sized heroes and more explosions and spell effects than a coven of witches with diarrhea, seeing a person casting an ability can be very challenging (it is significantly easier in duels). Halting Strike does good damage only if you manage to land the interrupt.

Right now I think that anything which encourages active gameplay and good timing should be rewarded, and rewarded heavily!

Besides, most Mesmers don’t take Halting Strike; they instead opt for the Mind Wrack damage increase talent, Mental Torment.

A 4k damage Halting Strike is very high – most likely against a light armor player in zerker gear.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Oh… and don’t overlook the ‘active’ playstyles created by seemingly ‘passive’ traits.

Yes, that’s the basis for my defense of Diamond Skin.

Not everything that is “passive” is bad or leads to mindless play.

Sen, I love your channel and videos, and I agree with your intentions for a lot of your post. But there’s a lot of logic in there I don’t agree with like Dahkeus and DiogoSilva before me.

Like, Diamond Skin: There is active play in there. This is a fact. You’re doing more work for the skill to maintain it then you would for something like Healing Signet. What you should be focusing on is the fact that it’s hard counter.

Berserker’s Stance: Again, the argument here should be that at 8 seconds duration it’s a hard counter skill.

There’s Thief evades: “other classes don’t have that possibility which makes it unbalanced imo”. That’s a reason that sounds like “I don’t want this class to have this unique ability because it’s unique”. You should be arguing how strong the evades are combined with its damage and/or escape ability.

Remove the snare from Chill? Make Cripple stack in intensity? I actually agree with the Immobilize suggestion (although some will say that’s too long). But you can’t just nerf two forms of soft CC like that in a game with dodging and teleports.

Halting Strike: Just say you want it removed. If you lower it’s damage it’ll probably never get picked again. I personally think it should be a harder ability to trait for.

Torment change: Torment then becomes weak by itself and to only be used in combination with Immobilize and hard CC. Sort of a condition version of Unsuspecting Foe. As it stands, the whole point of putting a negative effect like this is to have the target make a hard choice. If you don’t want to punish movement then you should just skip to saying this trait should be removed.

Actual arguments:
Changing Condi scaling because of Pin Down: You have an argument here but this is just something I disagree with. I think Power builds should have some access to decent condition damage skills and vice versa. If they’re going to keep hard counter skills and traits in the game then you have to give more options to keep them balanced. I’d also just prefer if more things were designed like how the Guardian has a few extra burns to help push his direct damage over the top, rather than focusing on more burst and crit damage. I remember during the early days of PvP where having burst Thieves and Mesmers around meant that you either played Rocket Tag with them or made a bunker build. We completely lost balanced builds back then.

Fresh Air: This depends on where ANet wants to go with the class. If they want the Elementalist to be an all rounder taking the strengths of every element constantly, then the Elementalist needs a redesign when it comes to Attunement Swapping and I don’t think the upcoming attunement cooldown changes will help much. But Fresh Air is one of those abilities that goes in the opposite way: It allows Elementalists to specialize in an element. And I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing to work towards.

What I do agree with:
Actual passive play like Automated Response, which gives you a huge comeback benefit for free when you’re losing that your opponent can’t do much to counter. Diamond Skin is something you have to build up and maintain (It’t like a skill that depends on you having a certain special meter built up, where that special meter is your health). Berserker’s Stance at least has some semblance of timing necessary and the enemy can focus on kiting during that time (although the main reason why it’s such a hard counter is because of it’s long duration versus Necro’s primary method of kiting: conditions). The only balancing factor that makes me okay with it being in the game (and an RPG game no less, where the style fits) is the fact that it’s a Grandmaster trait, much like the Warrior’s Endure Pain trait.

Runes: Runes need such an overhaul. Some runes just overshadow everything else. Lyssa, Nightmare, you know them. Some runes are just “pump my stats more!” and you take them depending on whether you run this or that amulet.

Autoattacks: I’m glad you made the point to include both high damage and high condition stacking autoattacks. There’re a bunch of ideas I have for changing a number of autoattacks but I don’t even want to list them because there have been hundreds before me. The only time I’m fine with it is when you have nothing else that’s anywhere near as effective sustain wise (Necro Dagger) or you make missing the last hits of the chain extra harsh (Warrior Axe, and as you mentioned, Mesmer Sword, are great examples of this).

some of the stuff here is decent, but the bias for mesmer is too obvious. basically wants to nerf thief, warrior, ranger, engineer, and ele but mesmer is apparently fine and balanced? kinda seems to me like rock is fine, nerf scissors when you’re paper kind of thing here.

I agree with you about eles, I miss 0 20 0 20 30 type specs reasonable support and damage before the condi patch. The reason i don’t like diamond skin and to a lesser extent Fresh Air. is they will balance around it . IE moving all water traits that are worth taking to master tree which is a nerf to eles active condi clear. This patch is nerf to eles imo!

I’d be happy if they cancel’d or at least held off on diamond skin and left cleansing wave OR water cdr in adept. maybe even remove 5s icd on cleansing waters as it can mess up stuff with water fields. I can’t imagine getting 2 extra cleanses from popping 3 cantrips at the same time (super long cd and is a waste anyway) is a big deal anymore.

Also, things that make eles good now are all kinda(very) cheesy; double or tipple arcane burst , frostbow 4 , fresh air, invulnerably from focus, diamond skin? soon.

Halting Strike: Yes i am a mesmer and since this post aims to show an objective point of view i also have to talk about this trait…when you talk about halting strike you talk about – instant – damage that can reach up to 3-4k (not dodgeable) imo it should either be removed completely or the dmg nerfed

Lol what?.. Who even runs halting strike… who even runs mesmers?

Excalibur.9748:

some of the stuff here is decent, but the bias for mesmer is too obvious. basically wants to nerf thief, warrior, ranger, engineer, and ele but mesmer is apparently fine and balanced? kinda seems to me like rock is fine, nerf scissors when you’re paper kind of thing here.

no every decent player should know that the points above are right and not biased on the class i am running….looks like you are none tbh
nerfing engineer makes mesmer better? aha okay

I don’t know why invul from focus is cheese :/ You care to elaborate ?

Excalibur.9748:

some of the stuff here is decent, but the bias for mesmer is too obvious. basically wants to nerf thief, warrior, ranger, engineer, and ele but mesmer is apparently fine and balanced? kinda seems to me like rock is fine, nerf scissors when you’re paper kind of thing here.

Actually I think he’s saying nerf mesmers, thieves and warriors, buff ele, change ranger to be more rewarding to players who are more skilled, and change engineer’s Automated Response to not be such a hard counter.

Those all sound like good ideas to me.

I could think of alternatives to Automated Response that would be more engaging:
New Automated Response: while under 25% health, all damage taken is reduced by 15% and you are immune to blind, weakness, bleeds, fear and cripple.

This is still a very strong talent, but still leaves room for some condition play: torment, confusion, poison and burning all can do damage, chill can still slow, immobilization still works, and you can still stack vulnerability.

You actually have some pretty bad points for someone who has played a lot of pvp, and if you think the amount of games alone makes you a creditable source of balance information then I’m sorry I have to disagree with you.

Looking through this thread I see that’s anyone who doesn’t agree with you is met with a sarcastic remark instead of trying to understand what they are saying. I mean your comments about fresh air or diamond skin make me doubt you even know what your talking about.

hm maybe because i take the kittening time to write this post and people just complain you all come from wvw and have no clue of pvp and just rage and rage and rage..no constructive feedback nothing

Sensotix.4106:

Blind: make the skills that apply a blind instant (like we see on ele) but decrease the blind duration
Poison: remove damage
Chill: remove that it slows down enemies
Cripple: let it stack in intensity
Torment: change the skill so it does double dmg while the target is not moving (in a game where good positioning and movement is a key to win a fight moving should not be punished) it also can lead to nice combinations with stun and immobilise
Immobilise: max duration 5 sec
Fear: move the “terror” trait on necro to grandmaster
Weakness: let it stack in intensity and reduce the duration of weakness applied by skills a little bit
Vulnerability: Increases damage the target takes by 2% instead of 1% stacks in intensity.

How will that affect the Game:
Conditions will be used more carefully and we don’t see the spam we all hate

I think this deserves more arguments if you want it to be constructive and promote a discussion about it. You can’t just say “change this and that” and justify it with a non so obvious consequence. The torment change is the only argued one.

-> Regarding vulnerability: it would be way too strong. You’re just wanting to easily destroy your enemies after a good 3 clone Diversion (just jocking ^^)

-> Regarding terror: idk, maybe a too strong nerf. I prefer the damage to be shaved, then necro’s bleeding stacks to be shaved step by step. I think that how Anet is shaving necros (by removing bleedings one by one, and doing little skill reworks) is a slow process but will lead to a balanced state of the necro without the risk of an overnerf.

Also when you ask something to stack on intensity, specify what one stack would represent.

I agree that weakness should last less given how strong it is. A single condition that can pretty strongly counter a whole kind of specs (direct dmage ones) shouldn’t be able to last 10+ sec or 5+ sec with low cds.

i totally agree with u sensotix and for others i will say some of u guys have no idea what are they talking about, how about u casual players go play cof path 1?www and pve players have their own section now, be a good boys and buy a skin and dont interfere here play hearstone and skyrim

teogeos.1364:

Sensotix.4106:

Blind: make the skills that apply a blind instant (like we see on ele) but decrease the blind duration
Poison: remove damage
Chill: remove that it slows down enemies
Cripple: let it stack in intensity
Torment: change the skill so it does double dmg while the target is not moving (in a game where good positioning and movement is a key to win a fight moving should not be punished) it also can lead to nice combinations with stun and immobilise
Immobilise: max duration 5 sec
Fear: move the “terror” trait on necro to grandmaster
Weakness: let it stack in intensity and reduce the duration of weakness applied by skills a little bit
Vulnerability: Increases damage the target takes by 2% instead of 1% stacks in intensity.

How will that affect the Game:
Conditions will be used more carefully and we don’t see the spam we all hate

I think this deserves more arguments if you want it to be constructive and promote a discussion about it. You can’t just say “change this and that” and justify it with a non so obvious consequence. The torment change is the only argued one.

-> Regarding vulnerability: it would be way too strong. You’re just wanting to easily destroy your enemies after a good 3 clone Diversion (just jocking ^^)

-> Regarding terror: idk, maybe a too strong nerf. I prefer the damage to be shaved, then necro’s bleeding stacks to be shaved step by step. I think that how Anet is shaving necros (by removing bleedings one by one, and doing little skill reworks) is a slow process but will lead to a balanced state of the necro without the risk of an overnerf.

Also when you ask something to stack on intensity, specify what one stack would represent.

I agree that weakness should last less given how strong it is. A single condition that can pretty strongly counter a whole kind of specs (direct dmage ones) shouldn’t be able to last 10+ sec or 5+ sec with low cds.

I agree i am open for changes there! these are just some bullet points i wrote down to start the whole thing these things can be discussed with the anet team then..

Sensotix.4106:

hm maybe because i take the kittening time to write this post and people just complain you all come from wvw and have no clue of pvp and just rage and rage and rage..no constructive feedback nothing

this is your big mistake… u copied and pasted a lot of stuff from other threads and throw some suggestions without argumentation like teogos mentioned and want us to praise u. everybody who has a different opinion is a wvw noob and has no clue of pvp in your eyes, no matter if they argument well. your attitude disqualifies u to even think about balance. and even if they have no clue about pvp or are wvw players, theyre complains are reasonable.. seems u has problems to understand this.

teogeos.1364:

Sensotix.4106:

Blind: make the skills that apply a blind instant (like we see on ele) but decrease the blind duration
Poison: remove damage
Chill: remove that it slows down enemies
Cripple: let it stack in intensity
Torment: change the skill so it does double dmg while the target is not moving (in a game where good positioning and movement is a key to win a fight moving should not be punished) it also can lead to nice combinations with stun and immobilise
Immobilise: max duration 5 sec
Fear: move the “terror” trait on necro to grandmaster
Weakness: let it stack in intensity and reduce the duration of weakness applied by skills a little bit
Vulnerability: Increases damage the target takes by 2% instead of 1% stacks in intensity.

How will that affect the Game:
Conditions will be used more carefully and we don’t see the spam we all hate

I think this deserves more arguments if you want it to be constructive and promote a discussion about it. You can’t just say “change this and that” and justify it with a non so obvious consequence. The torment change is the only argued one.
.

The blind change is clearly intended to make Blind a reflexive trait to avoid incoming damage. In other words, you see an attack coming and use blind to avoid it: rewards timing and counterplay. Good idea.

The poison change is an attempt to dial down condition damage overall and reduce it to a smaller set of sources. Removing the damage component could open avenues to increase its duration, which would make it better counterplay against heavy regen/healing classes. Good idea.

Removing slow from chill is another way to tone down the effects of condition spam. I’m not 100% sold on this yet.

Cripple change is married to the slow change.

Fear – we all understand the Terror argument.

Weakness – it’s insanely powerful (and undervalued by many). This is an attempt to tone it down but at the same time make coordinated use of it more potent.

Cripple is a lot more spammy than chill.I have no ideea what kind of nonsense you were thinking.Only a war could stack 3 cripples on you rather easy and considering half your post was warrior qq you will run out of tears if they adopted the ideea.Or your plan is to nerf warriors even more? December 10th no warrior will be seen in tpvp anyway until next buff in maybe another 12 months? Hopefully.
I really am amazed how people just nod heads and agree to very false knowledge about the game.Even Anet stated that the reason they nerf combustive shot is that replenishes andrenaline too fast while in fact the skill gives zero andrenaline whatsoever.Yes zero.The excuse was terrible but the nerf will still get trough just because you whined about burning damage.
Shame on everyone that mindlesly agree with more than half your post.

hooma.9642:

Sensotix.4106:

hm maybe because i take the kittening time to write this post and people just complain you all come from wvw and have no clue of pvp and just rage and rage and rage..no constructive feedback nothing

this is your big mistake… u copied and pasted a lot of stuff from other threads and throw some suggestions without argumentation like teogos mentioned and want us to praise u. everybody who has a different opinion is a wvw noob and has no clue of pvp in your eyes, no matter if they argument well. your attitude disqualifies u to even think about balance. and even if they have no clue about pvp or are wvw players, theyre complains are reasonable.. seems u has problems to understand this.

i didnt’ copy a single thing man
second of all okay man..then let’s just let all the guys commentating and trashtalking make the balance…oh wait that happened already and that’s why we are in this meta :/

i agree with almoust all , torment should be unique necro condi and it should work like now becouse of necro mobility and sustain + on necro u need to be quite close and chanel torment so is easy to counter.

Thedenofsin.7340:

teogeos.1364:

Sensotix.4106:

Blind: make the skills that apply a blind instant (like we see on ele) but decrease the blind duration
Poison: remove damage
Chill: remove that it slows down enemies
Cripple: let it stack in intensity
Torment: change the skill so it does double dmg while the target is not moving (in a game where good positioning and movement is a key to win a fight moving should not be punished) it also can lead to nice combinations with stun and immobilise
Immobilise: max duration 5 sec
Fear: move the “terror” trait on necro to grandmaster
Weakness: let it stack in intensity and reduce the duration of weakness applied by skills a little bit
Vulnerability: Increases damage the target takes by 2% instead of 1% stacks in intensity.

How will that affect the Game:
Conditions will be used more carefully and we don’t see the spam we all hate

I think this deserves more arguments if you want it to be constructive and promote a discussion about it. You can’t just say “change this and that” and justify it with a non so obvious consequence. The torment change is the only argued one.
.

The blind change is clearly intended to make Blind a reflexive trait to avoid incoming damage. In other words, you see an attack coming and use blind to avoid it: rewards timing and counterplay. Good idea.

The poison change is an attempt to dial down condition damage overall and reduce it to a smaller set of sources. Removing the damage component could open avenues to increase its duration, which would make it better counterplay against heavy regen/healing classes. Good idea.

Removing slow from chill is another way to tone down the effects of condition spam. I’m not 100% sold on this yet.

Cripple change is married to the slow change.

Fear – we all understand the Terror argument.

Weakness – it’s insanely powerful (and undervalued by many). This is an attempt to tone it down but at the same time make coordinated use of it more potent.

i am also not 100% sure about the chill and cripple change but it feels like the two condis are way too similar which is not a good thing imo

remeber that for necros chill is super important for slowing ppl

Why is everyone complaining about diamond skin? It will go live anyways and we will see if it’s going to be OP or not usefull at all. But there’s no point in theorizing about it now. Until we can test it and see how it works all discussion is a waste of time.

Accepts practically in all with Sensotix

glad some agree

I love your thread. I do not agree with everything but i really appreciate it you take the time to cover the most issues that need to be fixed.

If we would have a CDI with the following focussed topics:

-Regarding the OP builds
-Regarding useless, bad designed, broken, … traits
-Regarding broken/lacking weaponsets
-Regarding condi/spam meta
-Fill me in

There could be some hope for this game because then people like you with enough experience in the game come up and give Anet an idea how to fix the current issues in a way the players would like.

We could do this by, instead of making 1 thread per topic, make a CDI segment in forum where the topics are put. Here people can post their ideas in the form of a thread(like yours). The ideas(threads) that will be liked the most by others will be upvoted and given feedback in the most.

Wouldn’t that be a better idea then 1 thread/topic with a load of ppl posting their ideas ?

just my 2 cents…

Halting strike damage is not nearly that high in most scenarios – typically more like 2k (even assuming the mesmer is zerker amulet). Anything above 3k and you’re hitting a very squishy target that probably has vulnerability stacks and you probably have might stacks.

Halting strike is also a good example of a trait that encourages an active play style. I think there should be more traits like this.

Plenty of people don’t take the trait as is – it competes with some other good choices in that spot like Mental Torment and Empowered Illusions. I think if you make it weaker you may as well remove it (it used to do like 400 damage and nobody took it ever).

I like your proposals to change some of the conditions. IMO conditions should be broken up into damaging ones and control ones, and condi removal should be more specific and deliberate. Instead of traits and abilities that remove conditions in some pre-determined order, we should have more traits like Stop Drop and Roll for the ele or skills like Hide in Shadows for the thief. These remove specific condis, making the interplay between condi applications and removal more elegant

If you’re going to allow a trait such as halting strike deal so much damage it’s better placing it in a higher tier of traits. Remember mug damage(prenerf)? Although mug damage still isn’t terrible.

If you build it, they will come.

I took some time to break out Halting Strike damage info b/c I do not want the PvP community at large to start coming at that trait with pitchforks and torches.

Ok so lets envision the typical scenario of a 20/20/0/0/30 shatter mesmer that takes this trait. That mesmer uses a berzerker amulet and lyssa runes, and has a power of 2039, crit damage of 40%. Lets take the damage formula for halting strike worked out and posted on the wiki: [weapon strength] * [power] * 1.25 [Coef]) / [Armor] = damage.

Of note PvP weapons have strengths of 905-1000 for one handed 995-1100 for two handed. However, utility and F skills actually use a different “weapon strength” – on the mesmer forums they calculated this to be ~760-775 (see https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Halting-strike-does-300-base-damage-bug)

On the squishiest possible target (light armor, no toughness) armor = 1836 so do the math you get:

1076 damage, 2044 if crit

Lets say you have 25 stacks of might, then you get:

1537 damage, 2921 if crit

And now lets say you have 25 stacks of might and the target has 25 stacks of vuln – i.e. the absolute best case scenario:

1921 damage, 3651 if crit

Ok so there’s that “3-4k damage!” number we hear all about – but look what it took to get it. Now lets say you aren’t only fighting zerker amu light armor people.

Rabid amu necro = reduce all above numbers by 26%

Soldier’s amu warrior = reduce all above numbers by 40%

Settler’s amu ranger = reduce all above numbers by 43%

Target has protection? Reduce the number AGAIN by 33%

In practice, halting strike probably averages somewhere in the 1.5 – 2.2 k range against typical targets under typical conditions of might and vulnerability.

Sure it CAN crit for 3.6k, but you are definitely not seeing that regularly, and such numbers should not be used as rallying cries to nerf the trait that barely competes with Mental Torment and Empowered Illusions as it is.

Halting Strike… not dodgeable?…. WHAT??

Halting Strike is OP but im not sure i would kill SD thieves without it. I would be VERY worried about the Vuln change you suggested Sensotix, mesmers stack ~20 vuln very easily and 40%+ damage is mad. It would need a serious rebalance of power before that was considered. Diamond Skin has warnings all over it, considering how eles are pretty decent at bouncing their health up and cleansing condis – i like eles, watching a good one play is a treat but i also remember what they were like early on in the game.

Good suggestions and well structured. Seriously opposed to the Vuln change you mentioned though without a MASSIVE nerf on EVERYTHING. I feel these caps are justified

OP doesn’t like thieves lol

I’m definitely looking forward to the livestream. I’ve missed having something like that ever since the Guru SotG stopped playing.

@Josh.

This is really good Josh but i think Balance team need a better interaction with pvp players. Balance is crucial in spvp, builds are updated very fast and there are a lot of delicates situations in a conquest game that require a better attention from balance team.

There a lot of bad mechanics in the game and 10th dec balance patch won’t cover all the bad aspects for many classes, so i think balance team need a really better focus on spvp and this game need more quick fix to cover many of these aspects.

Short version:

Bi-weekly targeted fix for spvp

Sensotix.4106:

felivear.1536:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Diamond Skin is an active trait disguised as a passive trait.

Which button do you press to activate it again? I can’t remember.

nailed it again

hmm no not really..By your logic fresh air is also a passive trait.You dont press anything to activate it,you just play and it “passively” refreshes your air attunement on crits.
You dont do activate anything?? But it changes everything on your playstyle..
Pretty much what will happen with your decision making in fights while you have diamond skin.
Its not passive play at all..If it counters some classes and its bad thats another story but pls..PLS!!
“Passives” arent the devil btw ..When Jon said that you have to actievely react to the passives he was right ..lol! You just need to play a game where passives are nicely implemented.

I just read DiogoSilva’s post..It pretty much somes up my thoughts of why traits like dhuumfire promote passive play(you cant practically control its proc) and diamond skin not.
But with that in mind im not fond of it giving 100 immunity cause it becomes a hard counter and thats unfair . Bad yeah..but passive play?? Sort that out pls

Dirame.8521:

Halting Strike… not dodgeable?…. WHAT??

Yes. Halting Strike damages an opponent if a Mesmer successfully interrupts their cast. So it requires a precise attack at a precise time to score the damage.

Next meta, Tempest Defense+Powerful Aura Eles are going to be key components on any team like Guardians are now.
Guardian’s Stand Your Ground will be as mandatory as ever (Mantra of Concentration and Toss Elixir B not so sure).
The new condi resistant shatter Mesmers will see their rise.
Strong condition classes such as Spirit Rangers, Engineers and Necros will still remain as viable as ever (DPS alternatives not so much).
Burst rifle Engies may see their rise to quickly take down these new Eles.
GS/LB Warriors with (very)high stability uptime may possibly see a come back. Hambows will still be viable.
Thieves are a big ?

Well, those are my guesses.