Guild Wars 2

I enjoy the idea of being able to cloak yourself to avoid detection, midgigate damage and kite away.
It makes the game exciting..
BUT.. (here is the but..)
It is kinda noticable that stealth has a big advantage when it comes to reapplying your target. basicly it is a combat reset that only works in the favour of the person in stealth.
The person in stealth can still target the person who isn’t.
The person who isn’t stealth loses the target.
Im fine with not seeing my target and not being able to cast spells on that target when in stealth. My gripe is that with the targeting system as it is, in a combat situation the clutter on screen and the fast pace of combat stealth is the most annoying uninteresting, non combat promoting thing for anyone fighting against it.
(I love fighting the ground, spamming all skills hoping i get a hit off when someone is in stealth) Stealth doesn’t promote any skillbased combat if it comes to trying to reveal an opponent.
So my suggestion on how to make stealth an honest tactic to use in combat.
It doesn’t have anything to do with nerfs or buffs. It has to do with the targetting system.
I am suggesting a lock on target trough steath.
iow, if i am fighting someone and that person cloaks i will not be able to target or cast spells on him. but .. As long as i don’t switch targets, and the stealthee is in a certain range i should be able to pick up the target once it get revealed. without picking trough all the clutter spam to find the target.
now the game to counter stealth is spam.. pure, unrelentless spam that doesn’t add anything except more clutter.
I would rather have someone in stealth not activate marks or be hit by aoe. but instead have a suspension of combat untill the stealth is trough.
So i will still be able to see the characters icon/hpbar info on the top of my screen even though cloacked and once the stealth is gone being able to attack without spending 5 seconds browsing trough enemiestrying to find the person i was supposed to be fighting.
I would like people to seriously think about this option, and about what stealth should gain/lose if this would be implemented.

Cheers.

If you can’t find the stealther after the stealth wears off, it means they are doing it right. Its called a surprise attack. Should we /wave before we engage?

I don’t mind stealth, I don’t mind suprise attacks. I mind reapplying target every 5 seconds amid a clutterkitten of addons.

I can play thief and mesmer in constant combat without being hit more then 5 times by direct attacks in a whole match simply because noone can target me. This seems to me a bit absurd.

I might have to explain a bit further what i am suggesting.

If fighting stealth, I can’t see you, I can’t cast spells on you that hit, I don’t have an indication on where you might be, and if you are in stealth and out of a certain range i will lose you as a target
Add to that maybe longer stealth duration/negating effects while in stealth and you would have a more interesting mechanic.

As far as i can see stealth is the only mechanic that removes a target/breaks combat and one should really try to see both sides of this play. especially with the target system and pace that this game has. I see stealth as a blocking mechanism like almost all other classes have except all those other classes don’t have a combat reset.

Just answering L2p to a mechanical suggestion is a bit simple.

Another thief QQ thread ? After dec 10 thief is going to be a worthless but even all those nerfs won’t help nubs to counter thieves . It’s better to just delete the class now .

a t s e.9614:

Another thief QQ thread ? After dec 10 thief is going to be a worthless but even all those nerfs won’t help nubs to counter thieves . It’s better to just delete the class now .

Couldn’t care less about thieves to be honest, couldn’t care less about mesmers either, or rangers, or the stealth runes.

I care about the makeshift mechanic involved

a t s e.9614:

Another thief QQ thread ? After dec 10 thief is going to be a worthless but even all those nerfs won’t help nubs to counter thieves . It’s better to just delete the class now .

what? You don’t understand: he just wants to not have to click to see the enemy after his stealth goes away – this has nothing to do with crying about how op thieves are or something like that.

Also, the only thing that changes at dec 10th is that the vigor and a few traits get nerfed – but the normal initiative regain will be improved and this actually only makes dp-perma-stealth-thieves useless. dd-thieves will get better, sd-thieves can take 30 in acrobatics and double sd to get their ini back (maybe even with energy-sigils as the vigor gets nerfed), dp-thieves can’t have perma-stealth anymore – so nothing that troubles the overall thief

to the topic: I really think that would be nice, even as a stealth-thief-player :P

Well … if that idea goes through, you have basically killed many of the mesmer-speccs, that rely on confusing (not the condition) the enemy.
In other words, you have made it mindless to face a mesmer, that builds on builds on spamming clones and adding confusion to the battle. Imho that is NOT the way to move.
I wouldn’t call it a L2P-issue, but … why babysit ppl to find the real mesmer, when ALL the clues are there? Does it have to be more mindless?

Stealth in general is however another topic. Even as a class/specc that uses it, I find it silly strong (as I recall, it wasn’t even supposed to be here in the first place?). But that goes for a lot of things: Evades, AoE, mobility, ports & disengages to name a few.

I’ll say it again: Stealth is the cancer of all PvP games.

It’s just a terrible mechanic that ruins the flow of combat and it’s so inherently strong that any class that has it, needs to be arbitrarily weakened just for balance. One of the key reasons Thief is weak in many ways is to balance against by far the strongest disengage combat mechanic in game. It’s stupid…

I’ve thought a lot about the concept of stealth over the years and I’ve only found one way the technique can be even remotely interesting on a skill-based level by itself:

When you engage stealth, the biggest benefit is that eventually your opponent(s) lose track of where you are, and/or break target, while you still retain this information…

To level the playing field, and increase the skill-cap of the feature, the person who engages stealth should also loses track of enemies.

You’re probably thinking “what the hell? What’s the point in that? Were you dropped on your head more than once as an infant?” etc.. Once you get past the initial ‘discomfort’, you realise it opens up something so simple and elegant, it’s actually quite brilliant…

It essentially becomes a game of Hide and Seek, in the context of combat.

Think on that a second… You have to guess where your opponent will position themselves and put yourself in a more advantageous position, based on nothing more than your deductive skill and understanding of the present combat moment.

You may think, well what’s the point of having stealth then if both user and target both benefit and suffer from the stealth? Well that’s the thing, the person who begins the game of hide and seek gets to choose when it happens. which is absolutely huge in itself.

It’s a risk/reward situation where you need to skilfully choose when it’s most advantageous for you to use stealth. Use it when you’re close to dying to recover cool downs/HP? Use it as a ‘break stun’ to nullify someone’s attack sequence? Use it to simply waste time in an encounter you don’t think you’ll win if you fight right this second, or simply to wait for allies?

Sure much of this occurs with typical degenerate cheesy stealth, but the difference is with this it’s a lot easier to mess up the usage because of unskilled timing/deductive prediction… You could easily pop stealth when the opponent just made a mistake and was gonna’ take it in the face, big time. Now they get time to recover from the misstep because of your stealth. All of a sudden it isn’t simply god-mode any more, just ‘potentially’ so…

It would essentially make stealth a far more interesting chess-game like mechanic where most of the power was still held by the user, with the distinct difference being that they could potentially mess it up quite royally.

This would then enable classes that receive stealth (across all games even) to not have to be stupidly weak in other areas just because….

I still think stealth is a poor choice of what players could be spending their time enjoying in combat, but at least it wouldn’t be so lame!

Poxxia.1547:

Well … if that idea goes through, you have basically killed many of the mesmer-speccs, that rely on confusing (not the condition) the enemy.
In other words, you have made it mindless to face a mesmer, that builds on builds on spamming clones and adding confusion to the battle. Imho that is NOT the way to move.
I wouldn’t call it a L2P-issue, but … why babysit ppl to find the real mesmer, when ALL the clues are there? Does it have to be more mindless?

Stealth in general is however another topic. Even as a class/specc that uses it, I find it silly strong (as I recall, it wasn’t even supposed to be here in the first place?). But that goes for a lot of things: Evades, AoE, mobility, ports & disengages to name a few.

I know where you are coming from.
In case of the mesmer i agree, the signs are there. yet take into account the timespan to apply a target on a mesmer amidst clones and other clutter.
I would go as far as to say the mechanic turns guildwars into a game of memory and simon says.. instead of a game of using skills..
A person would spend more time picking up the right target in a brawl then a mesmer would need to unload all three skillbars.
But yeah confusion is the mesmers trait, i agree its their neiche yet i don’t think they will suffer from a proximity to apply targets. like the ranger and necro, AI should have
a smaller range limit anyway. besides with the mobility getting in and out of range is the mesmers least of concerns.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Poxxia.1547:

Well … if that idea goes through, you have basically killed many of the mesmer-speccs, that rely on confusing (not the condition) the enemy.
In other words, you have made it mindless to face a mesmer, that builds on builds on spamming clones and adding confusion to the battle. Imho that is NOT the way to move.
I wouldn’t call it a L2P-issue, but … why babysit ppl to find the real mesmer, when ALL the clues are there? Does it have to be more mindless?

Stealth in general is however another topic. Even as a class/specc that uses it, I find it silly strong (as I recall, it wasn’t even supposed to be here in the first place?). But that goes for a lot of things: Evades, AoE, mobility, ports & disengages to name a few.

I know where you are coming from.
In case of the mesmer i agree, the signs are there. yet take into account the timespan to apply a target on a mesmer amidst clones and other clutter.
I would go as far as to say the mechanic turns guildwars into a game of memory and simon says.. instead of a game of using skills..
A person would spend more time picking up the right target in a brawl then a mesmer would need to unload all three skillbars.
But yeah confusion is the mesmers trait, i agree its their neiche yet i don’t think they will suffer from a proximity to apply targets. like the ranger and necro, AI should have
a smaller range limit anyway. besides with the mobility getting in and out of range is the mesmers least of concerns.

Editing, sorry. Here goes another version, that is perhaps a bit more clear:
I don’t know about you, but I barely care to mark the real mesmer anymore. It is really that obvious, unless the place is filled with clones/AI and particle-effects (3 mesmers spamming clones can make me loose track as well; especially if they are all looking the same). Sure, it can happen … and frequently does. WvW and hotjoins are perfect examples. But in a 1vs1 I don’t think, the loosing target is beyond reasonable.
Mesmers would most likely suffer the most with your mobility-suggestion, I take it you know that.

I agree AI is too profound, and shouldn’t be so. I am not sure it can be fixed without effectively killing classes in the process though.

Regarding your post again:
If you look through the mesmer-traits, some traits require for clones to be killed in one way or another. If that doesn’t happen, those traits are useless.
Effectively it would make those traits much less desirable (imho close to useless).
But more importantly: The basic idea of the class goes down the drain for the purpose of making it easier to target the real mesmer. And even worse: It promotes more mindless AoE/Cleave, since the risk of facing a mesmer that punishes you for being mindlessly killing the clones is not there. In all honesty: Why would you want to do that?

lock on target through stealth? what’s the point of stealth if you could still target them freely?

Should we have a mechanic that goes – damage enemy through their invulns?

that is the point of stealth…drop target

besides stealth has huge disadvantge that everyone forgets….stealthed person doesn’t cap anything…

Looks like an l2p issue to me . You can’t target after the person comes back from stealth . So you want an auto-target . Can I have an auto-stunbreak when I get stunned ? It would make the game easier for me .

a t s e.9614:

Looks like an l2p issue to me . You can’t target after the person comes back from stealth . So you want an auto-target . Can I have an auto-stunbreak when I get stunned ? It would make the game easier for me .

Do you ever have a positive thing to say ever? XD He has a point. Re-targeting isn’t a combat mechanic, it’s a crutch and a very annoying one at that. It causes combat to feel clunky, if you knew anything at all about proper game design you’d know that anything in a game that feels clunky is a bad thing. Thieves need help with basic survival, yes, but they also need the cheese and clunkiness toned down. There’s no part of combat that is interesting or fun about “cool I can’t retarget my enemy fast enough because there’s too much crap around.”

What if going to stealth made it so that you lost your target when you stealthed, and had to do all stealth attacks via skill shot, and once you came out of stealth you had to re-tab to gain your target. How fun would that be? >_>:

^Have you ever fought against another thief/mesmer/engi as a thief? It’s the same thing. Thieves have also been dealing with this mechanic that the OP is complaining about…

It’s a l2p issue. All you have to do is hit “C” when he comes out of stealth, or click it…this game really isn’t that hard to target someone especially with the new target priorities over the petting zoos.

Adding a button to fix losing a target when you could just keep it or “regain” target afterwards isn’t depth, is my point, its just annoying/frustrating. I have no issues with thieves personally. Like I said; they need a BUFF. I specifically said that… But I also agree they need a. less cheesy build access, and b. stealth needs to be less clunky/annoying to play against. There’s nothing wrong with saying that, cutting annoyance and disturbances in natural combat flow is good for games, you mistake it for cutting depth. It absolutely is not depth.

ronpierce.2760:

a t s e.9614:

Looks like an l2p issue to me . You can’t target after the person comes back from stealth . So you want an auto-target . Can I have an auto-stunbreak when I get stunned ? It would make the game easier for me .

Do you ever have a positive thing to say ever? XD He has a point. Re-targeting isn’t a combat mechanic, it’s a crutch and a very annoying one at that. It causes combat to feel clunky, if you knew anything at all about proper game design you’d know that anything in a game that feels clunky is a bad thing. Thieves need help with basic survival, yes, but they also need the cheese and clunkiness toned down. There’s no part of combat that is interesting or fun about “cool I can’t retarget my enemy fast enough because there’s too much crap around.”

What if going to stealth made it so that you lost your target when you stealthed, and had to do all stealth attacks via skill shot, and once you came out of stealth you had to re-tab to gain your target. How fun would that be? >_>:

In all honesty, I find it to be an excuse for not caring to have combat awareness … I know it sounds arrogant, but that is not intended. We have AI following through stealth (which is bad imo), we have marks, we have very clear tells of which mesmer is the real one, and while thieves imho have too much access to stealth, following them after is the least of the issues I have with them.
If everyone lost target upon stealth it would be fine with me, but the other way around just promotes more mindless play.

I guess we define awareness differently. I find all the stuns, evades, AoE-cloaks, disengages to be a much bigger issue, when it comes to how combat “should feel”.

Honestly, I wish it was more like WoW; where (granted, this would work strange with clones) where when you’re struck from a target while having no target you’d auto target them. That’d be helpful. It’s not a lack of combat awareness, I mean you know they vanished and you have to re-target, its not a hard concept, the problem, overall, is that it just adds “meaningless” button pressing that doesn’t add to the game and artificially fluctuates the thieves defenses. Pros retarget in a split of a second and thieves complain their defenses blow, nubs have a horrible time keeping up and complain thieves are OP. It fluctuates too much. If you eliminated the retargeting from stealth, perma stealth would be less frustrating to fight for everyone (less QQ about them, and may even deter some people from playing it, which would also be good), then they could also work on buffing thieves actual defenses instead of making them rely on artificial defenses like stealths and evades.

Poxxia.1547:

ronpierce.2760:

a t s e.9614:

Looks like an l2p issue to me . You can’t target after the person comes back from stealth . So you want an auto-target . Can I have an auto-stunbreak when I get stunned ? It would make the game easier for me .

Do you ever have a positive thing to say ever? XD He has a point. Re-targeting isn’t a combat mechanic, it’s a crutch and a very annoying one at that. It causes combat to feel clunky, if you knew anything at all about proper game design you’d know that anything in a game that feels clunky is a bad thing. Thieves need help with basic survival, yes, but they also need the cheese and clunkiness toned down. There’s no part of combat that is interesting or fun about “cool I can’t retarget my enemy fast enough because there’s too much crap around.”

What if going to stealth made it so that you lost your target when you stealthed, and had to do all stealth attacks via skill shot, and once you came out of stealth you had to re-tab to gain your target. How fun would that be? >_>:

In all honesty, I find it to be an excuse for not caring to have combat awareness … I know it sounds arrogant, but that is not intended. We have AI following through stealth (which is bad imo), we have marks, we have very clear tells of which mesmer is the real one, and while thieves imho have too much access to stealth, following them after is the least of the issues I have with them.
If everyone lost target upon stealth it would be fine with me, but the other way around just promotes more mindless play.

I guess we define awareness differently. I find all the stuns, evades, AoE-cloaks, disengages to be a much bigger issue, when it comes to how combat “should feel”.

Also; in case you weren’t aware, stealth itself is a means of not having to have good combat awareness, so its only fighting fire with fire. Am I losing? Hide, LOS so they can’t find me and reset. That’s exactly what it is. Its a way for thieves to not have to have full combat awareness because if they get into too much trouble they can rely on not being targetable.

What if:

Stealth made enemies drop target, like now, but you were not 100% invisible, you had a “ripple outline” (kind of like starwars cloaking, where you can sort of see where they stand) and you could retarget the enemy in stealth via clicking them, not tab. Would that be a good change or bad? I mean that’d really add some combat awareness and skill. But I guarantee thieves wouldn’t be too thrilled about it.

Just press TAB when the thief appears (avoid using your mouse)Except when you are against an AI wall. They need to improve the targetting against AI users. Cheers.

What if we delete mesmers and thieves from the game ? It will be better for the devs to only balance the remaining classes. Also we should get rid of necros\rangers , it’s very hard to target through their petting zoo.

a t s e.9614:

What if we delete mesmers and thieves from the game ? It will be better for the devs to only balance the remaining classes. Also we should get rid of necros\rangers , it’s very hard to target through their petting zoo.

They fixed petting zoo; they don’t stealth and tab goes through players now. For once. Secondly. I’ve already suggested Spirits become active buffs with personal animations and not AI, but that would actually BUFF spirit rangers. I’ve thought about ways to keep MM a minion master while being less AI-y, haven’t had a good one yet, but I’ll keep thinking. I main MM and wish it was easier for people to deal with AI so people would complain about it less, and yes it does make me feel like less of a player because people struggle with it. At least I’m realistic and know when things need changed and don’t defend it just because I can.

I’m not defending my class . I just said it above: Delete thieves please .

a t s e.9614:

I’m not defending my class . I just said it above: Delete thieves please .

Unfortunately I’d be for that, not because of stealth. The design overall just doesn’t fit the game…

- No cooldowns on weapons.
- Spammable.
- Most gimmicky possible builds.
- Too heavy reliance on evades.
- A lot of stealth

basically anything that could throw the game’s realistic balance out of whack. For the most parts most classes balance comes down to numbers (stun times/cooldowns and damage/healing ratios), but thieves don’t fit that mold one bit, and it legitimately does cause issues with the game. Its hard to believe people can not see that. I don’t hate thieves, they just don’t fit.

Its a typical l2p issue. Anyone that complains about having to retarget is lazy, and probably plays hotjoins for the most part. Reapplying targets is extremely easy and its the whole point of the mechanic. Look at two equally skilled players, one a thief and one of any other class and you’ll see the thief loses the majority of the time. Stop crying about thieves, these endless topics on them was kind of cute at first but now I actually think you guys are serious. QQ

Stealthasaur.2198:

Its a typical l2p issue. Anyone that complains about having to retarget is lazy, and probably plays hotjoins for the most part. Reapplying targets is extremely easy and its the whole point of the mechanic. Look at two equally skilled players, one a thief and one of any other class and you’ll see the thief loses the majority of the time. Stop crying about thieves, these endless topics on them was kind of cute at first but now I actually think you guys are serious. QQ

I’ve explained my points and you’re not reading them. I have no issues with thieves. But I’m not going to repeat it 1000 times. Also 2v2 Champ here last fight was against Caed (Thief) and Tany (Spirit ranger), I have no issues with fighting thieves. I just said they don’t fit the game’s mold.

ronpierce.2760:

a t s e.9614:

I’m not defending my class . I just said it above: Delete thieves please .

Unfortunately I’d be for that, not because of stealth. The design overall just doesn’t fit the game…

- No cooldowns on weapons.
- Spammable.
- Most gimmicky possible builds.
- Too heavy reliance on evades.
- A lot of stealth

basically anything that could throw the game’s realistic balance out of whack. For the most parts most classes balance comes down to numbers (stun times/cooldowns and damage/healing ratios), but thieves don’t fit that mold one bit, and it legitimately does cause issues with the game. Its hard to believe people can not see that. I don’t hate thieves, they just don’t fit.

LOL if you spam anything youll be out of initiative and not be able to use a single ability except auto attack. Lots of stealth? Only if youre spec’d for it and if you are, you arent doing much of anything for your team. Most reliance on evades? You can spec for that but its not difficult to hit a thief between evades while hes not doing any damage because hes well….evading. Perm stealth and evades builds are used by trolls and low skill thieves and they are both useless builds that lose most matches for your team. Again l2p issue.

Stealthasaur.2198:

ronpierce.2760:

a t s e.9614:

I’m not defending my class . I just said it above: Delete thieves please .

Unfortunately I’d be for that, not because of stealth. The design overall just doesn’t fit the game…

- No cooldowns on weapons.
- Spammable.
- Most gimmicky possible builds.
- Too heavy reliance on evades.
- A lot of stealth

basically anything that could throw the game’s realistic balance out of whack. For the most parts most classes balance comes down to numbers (stun times/cooldowns and damage/healing ratios), but thieves don’t fit that mold one bit, and it legitimately does cause issues with the game. Its hard to believe people can not see that. I don’t hate thieves, they just don’t fit.

LOL if you spam anything youll be out of initiative and not be able to use a single ability except auto attack. Lots of stealth? Only if youre spec’d for it and if you are, you arent doing much of anything for your team. Most reliance on evades? You can spec for that but its not difficult to hit a thief between evades while hes not doing any damage because hes well….evading. Perm stealth and evades builds are used by trolls and low skill thieves and they are both useless builds that lose most matches for your team. Again l2p issue.

Grow up, I told you I have no issues with thieves. I’m telling you they don’t fit the design model for classes in GW2 and it causes tons of issues. Get it through your head and stop being immature. I’ve said THIEVES NEED BUFFED, but they need to tone down the CHEESE.

I’m starting to realize why Devs are so cautious when talking about anything with players… Hardheaded as hell.

ronpierce.2760:

Stealthasaur.2198:

Its a typical l2p issue. Anyone that complains about having to retarget is lazy, and probably plays hotjoins for the most part. Reapplying targets is extremely easy and its the whole point of the mechanic. Look at two equally skilled players, one a thief and one of any other class and you’ll see the thief loses the majority of the time. Stop crying about thieves, these endless topics on them was kind of cute at first but now I actually think you guys are serious. QQ

I’ve explained my points and you’re not reading them. I have no issues with thieves. But I’m not going to repeat it 1000 times. Also 2v2 Champ here last fight was against Caed (Thief) and Tany (Spirit ranger), I have no issues with fighting thieves. I just said they don’t fit the game’s mold.

Okay youre right. Considering playing a thief (close with engi) is the most difficult class to play it should be removed and they should give us another class that is extremely easy. Id like to request more AI heavy classes anetplz. Thief too hard give us more classes that require a low skill cap.

Stealthasaur.2198:

ronpierce.2760:

Stealthasaur.2198:

Its a typical l2p issue. Anyone that complains about having to retarget is lazy, and probably plays hotjoins for the most part. Reapplying targets is extremely easy and its the whole point of the mechanic. Look at two equally skilled players, one a thief and one of any other class and you’ll see the thief loses the majority of the time. Stop crying about thieves, these endless topics on them was kind of cute at first but now I actually think you guys are serious. QQ

I’ve explained my points and you’re not reading them. I have no issues with thieves. But I’m not going to repeat it 1000 times. Also 2v2 Champ here last fight was against Caed (Thief) and Tany (Spirit ranger), I have no issues with fighting thieves. I just said they don’t fit the game’s mold.

Okay youre right. Considering playing a thief (close with engi) is the most difficult class to play it should be removed and they should give us another class that is extremely easy. Id like to request more AI heavy classes anetplz. Thief too hard give us more classes that require a low skill cap.

I didn’t say they weren’t hard to play themselves. I said it many times, they don’t fit the model. I’d much prefer no cooldowns and have resources we have to juggle and EVERY class be more like thieves. But the reality is, that’s not possible at this point…. I told you, I don’t hate thieves, but they DO cause issues because the design doesn’t mesh well with all of the other classes…

i have read entire thread and i must ask: where were you in the last year ronpierce??? you didnt play gw2 since release or at least pvp part, don’t you?
anyway i bet anet will create a minigame 8v8 deatchmatch, only BS thief allowed . next esport!

ronpierce.2760:

Stealthasaur.2198:

Its a typical l2p issue. Anyone that complains about having to retarget is lazy, and probably plays hotjoins for the most part. Reapplying targets is extremely easy and its the whole point of the mechanic. Look at two equally skilled players, one a thief and one of any other class and you’ll see the thief loses the majority of the time. Stop crying about thieves, these endless topics on them was kind of cute at first but now I actually think you guys are serious. QQ

I’ve explained my points and you’re not reading them. I have no issues with thieves. But I’m not going to repeat it 1000 times. Also 2v2 Champ here last fight was against Caed (Thief) and Tany (Spirit ranger), I have no issues with fighting thieves. I just said they don’t fit the game’s mold.

Wait, I didn’t get that – are you the MM or Spirit Ranger from Petting Zoo in that 2v2 tourney?

If yes – well, I have nothing to say.

ronpierce is the MM necro from petting zoo …. He is asking for thieves to get deleted from the game because his minions are not smart enough to catch the thief.

shimmerless.4560:

Amaterasu.6280:

ronpierce.2760:

Stealthasaur.2198:

Its a typical l2p issue. Anyone that complains about having to retarget is lazy, and probably plays hotjoins for the most part. Reapplying targets is extremely easy and its the whole point of the mechanic. Look at two equally skilled players, one a thief and one of any other class and you’ll see the thief loses the majority of the time. Stop crying about thieves, these endless topics on them was kind of cute at first but now I actually think you guys are serious. QQ

I’ve explained my points and you’re not reading them. I have no issues with thieves. But I’m not going to repeat it 1000 times. Also 2v2 Champ here last fight was against Caed (Thief) and Tany (Spirit ranger), I have no issues with fighting thieves. I just said they don’t fit the game’s mold.

Wait, I didn’t get that – are you the MM or Spirit Ranger from Petting Zoo in that 2v2 tourney?

If yes – well, I have nothing to say.

Please tell me the guild name was actually called “Petting Zoo” lol

The team/guild name was indeed Petting Zoo, we decided it’d be clever to run MM/Spirits and name ourselves Petting Zoo, and had no real intentions on winning going in lol.

Secondly; to those saying I’m wrong for playing MM, I’ve said many times in other threads MM is a bit too good versus low-tier players because they can’t avoid the damage well. I just don’t have any good ways to fix that. But that wasn’t what this thread is about. I want this game to be balanced and fun, there is a lot of changes that need to happen to make that a reality; but I don’t go into every thread saying everything that needs to change. This was about thieves/stealth, period. Yes Minions at this point are a little too much of a hard counter on low-tier players (and certainly has issues in high tier), I just simply don’t have a realistic way to fix MM without scrapping the moves all together.

And no, I don’t want thieves deleted, I was being sarcastic, because you (a t s e) said to delete them first. I was mocking you. Realistically; thieves should have less access to evades/stealths, more defense so that being caught without evades/stealth isn’t the end of the world for the thief, and in a perfect world, would use the cooldown-based system like every other class. (Which would be easier than switching every other class to a resource system without cooldowns to match thieves).

You’re being dramatic and blowing what I said out of the water. I said they do not fit the class standards for this game, and thus is causes very big issues for balancing. This is an un-deniable fact, otherwise the MANY threads like this would not exist.

To be honest Thief is a lot closer to what I once imagined most classes in this game’d be like, but to each their own I guess.

shimmerless.4560:

To be honest Thief is a lot closer to what I once imagined most classes in this game’d be like, but to each their own I guess.

I’ve said I agree with this. My only point is it’s far too late. :/ It’s easier to make 1 class like 7 others than 7 classes like 1. It’s unfortunate, and you’re right, but they’re not able/willing to make smalled “big changes”, there’s no way they’d redo the entire class system, all abilities and traits.

i find it funny how people say that target los is just annoying…. IT IS why people use stealth and it IS intended… stealth by itself doesn’t grant any kind of protection, stability etc. , onky thing that sealth has to offer is target los, auto target would make stealth even worse than it is already

in wow losing target was viable tactics and very helpfull, that is why people who played healer on ally side picked nelfs usually despite human racial being so good

try to play a stealth based target vs any class that abuses AI, those completely ignore stealth in fact all the time

in gw2 the game already kind of auto targets for you, stop QQ and l2p

Thats the entire point basically… lol. Stealth isnt even that strong. it doesnt hurt anyone…

ronpierce.2760:

Also; in case you weren’t aware, stealth itself is a means of not having to have good combat awareness, so its only fighting fire with fire. Am I losing? Hide, LOS so they can’t find me and reset. That’s exactly what it is. Its a way for thieves to not have to have full combat awareness because if they get into too much trouble they can rely on not being targetable.

What if:

Stealth made enemies drop target, like now, but you were not 100% invisible, you had a “ripple outline” (kind of like starwars cloaking, where you can sort of see where they stand) and you could retarget the enemy in stealth via clicking them, not tab. Would that be a good change or bad? I mean that’d really add some combat awareness and skill. But I guarantee thieves wouldn’t be too thrilled about it.

Yes, I am aware, that the knife cuts both ways.
The ripple-effect could work; at least my first impression is, that it sounds like a great idea.

I am just against mindless play, so whatever brings that down is fine with me

An example of a build that balances risk and reward, and where I find skill is both needed and rewarded in the proper amount is something like the Mind Crush build mesmers have:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Lockdown-Vid-Mind-Crush-11-5-13-Update/first

Whenever I am running Blackwater-mesmer it is mainly because I am tired of people mindlessly claiming to gods, when they are merely mindlessly spamming AoE … and I can’t help feeling good about making a point out of that and stick it right under their nose and have them chew on that for a bit.

I would like people to seriously think about this option, and about what stealth should gain/lose if this would be implemented.

So what would a theif/mesmer need if there was a mechanic involved that would make the enemy keep you as target if you are in a certain range?

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

I would like people to seriously think about this option, and about what stealth should gain/lose if this would be implemented.

So what would a theif/mesmer need if there was a mechanic involved that would make the enemy keep you as target if you are in a certain range?

I did think about it, and it is imho a horrible idea.
Let us reverse the situation a bit. From mesmer-pov I would like to ask you:
1: What purpose does illusions serve in “your world”?
2: What defense mechanisms should be given in return?
3: What about the mindless AoE where ppl don’t even have a target in the first place?

If the answer in your first question is “shatters & phantasms”, then I would have to ask you, if AI is a good solution? If shatters is the only other real option, what prevents players from mindless AoE illusions. Think about it for a second or two.

The second question relates to what other classes have. Here I think about evade-spam, chained fears, chained AoE-criples/immob, disengages in general, boons. My point is naturally, that I am all for bringing it all down. Along with silly AoE-stuns repeatable every 9. second.

The third question is obvious. If you want to punish being untargetable, why don’t you punish skills, that don’t need a target in the first place as well?

1: Damage? yes illusions would have the purpose of confusing the opponent. if you would add a couple of seconds to stealth , with the suggested mechanic. a (stealth user) mesmer would have to consider breaking combat and reposition out of range. or stay close and suffer the consequences. This also answers your Aoe suggestion. i meantioned in my first post to make stealth nullify damage from aoe, not trigger marks etc.
2: nullification of damage/protection. i see stealth as a blocking/defensive skill. if i can’t see you. i cant hit you. and you cant hit me.
3: see 1+2

I also heared mention of losing target/combat ablility when in stealth.
Or if compared with a block, that block skill ends when the player starts an attack. stealth and reveal would work the same way but since you become visible within a certain range your reveal will automaticly reapply the target from people who patiently waited out the stealth without attacking something else..

So if you stealth and i attack an illusion (with a 1 second window to stop attacking/cancel your cast) i will lose my target on you. and you can attack me trough stealth. however if i don’t do damage to another opponent/illusion i will have the mechanic play in my favor. but will have to resort to a defensive mode.

I do see where you are going with your suggestions and i realize that there is more to consider to make an mechanic like this to be possible. Hence the topic

“The second question relates to what other classes have. Here I think about evade-spam, chained fears, chained AoE-criples/immob, disengages in general, boons. My point is naturally, that I am all for bringing it all down. Along with silly AoE-stuns repeatable every 9. second.”

can’t disagree with that

Read this very carefully: stealth is underpowered in spvp. Underpowered. A stealthed player should be able to at least partially contest a point. Instead of buffing it properly you want to make it worse? This suggestion from the OP is so so so very bad.

The only thing I rly would like to have changed on stealth is, that if attacks out of stealth get blocked, you dont become revealed.

EverythingEnds.4261:

The only thing I rly would like to have changed on stealth is, that if attacks out of stealth get blocked, you dont become revealed.

^This.

Stealth as a mechanic in any MMO is fine because stealthed classes like thieves should be allow the preemptive strike because that’s what they do. The problem is that there is less risk for a thief in GW2 to attempt the preemptive because if they miss, they can try, try again until they do land the hit.

I think WoW had it right where a stealth player getting too close can actually be seen and if you spot the rogue fast enough you get the preemptive strike. Other than that, stealth in WoW is used to reset the fight IF the rogue runs far enough away.

Stealth is so embedded into thieves (stealth+heal+remove condition) that it takes away some of the skill required to play such a complex class type. I’m all for letting thieves have more stealth or evade, but they need to make sacrifices in order to get it.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

1: Damage? yes illusions would have the purpose of confusing the opponent. if you would add a couple of seconds to stealth , with the suggested mechanic. a (stealth user) mesmer would have to consider breaking combat and reposition out of range. or stay close and suffer the consequences. This also answers your Aoe suggestion. i meantioned in my first post to make stealth nullify damage from aoe, not trigger marks etc.
2: nullification of damage/protection. i see stealth as a blocking/defensive skill. if i can’t see you. i cant hit you. and you cant hit me.

What confusion is there, if you don’t loose the target? None, imo. At least not for me. To me, confusion is a major subject, when it comes to mesmers.
And (repeating, sorry) removing that confusion makes one kind of mesmers viable only, namely the ones using illusions strictly for direct dmg (phantasm/shatter-builds), and hence promoting AoE instead (because, it is viable to AoE the illusions and safe to do so). In other words, promoting the thing “we” (I) want to get rid of. We could remove stealth entirely, but then mesmers would have to have another way to make people believe the illusions are the real mesmer … else we might as well remove the class, imo.

I will say it again: I find it to be babysitting people to face mesmers, and I don’t think it is needed to dumb down the game.

As for stealth being a mechanic, where everyone becomes “blind”. I can see that working, but it sure is a major change.

I would prefer stealth-abilities to be like mesmer have atm: Skills on cd. But that does kinda ruin the whole design of thieves (which I didn’t like in the first place), and does ruin combo-fields. So I can’t see that happening.