Shadow Refuge is Absurdly Overpowered
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Dunno about that. The maps in GW2 are fine. Conquest could use a rework from a 1cap to a team cap system, but the map themselves are well designed.
AB suffered from the farm/bs/mill trifecta defense and how easy it was to reinforce. Was a huge advantage to the team that spawned on the South side of the map.
Dunno about that. The maps in GW2 are fine. Conquest could use a rework from a 1cap to a team cap system, but the map themselves are well designed.
AB suffered from the farm/bs/mill trifecta defense and how easy it was to reinforce. Was a huge advantage to the team that spawned on the South side of the map.
That would be called the Iron Triangle. Yes, it was a strong strategy for Horde, but could easily be overcome with proper counter strategy. The maps in GW2 are too small and have to few nodes imo.
Besides, this just brings up another point. If Thieves having a 10 second stealth is so detrimental to GW2 tPvP, why are Rogues with perma stealth not considered detrimental to rated Battlegrounds in WoW? I’ll tell you why, because stealth isn’t the problem. You being overly reliant on portals and not calling incomings is the problem, on top of bad map design.
(edited by Ashanor.5319)
thief player here, and i strongly agree on shadow refuge being absurdly overpowered.
But the point is that other options are very, VERY underpowered.
Venoms are bad if you don’t spec for them, and basically everything else is useless, from traps to other stuff.
Right now if you don’t go with shadowstep+ shadow refuge + whatever crap you want as utilities you’re doing it wrong.
Basically, you can’t nerf shadow refuge without changing how other utilities work ( for example blinding power has 60 secs CD, LOLWUT).
If Thieves having a 10 second stealth is so detrimental to GW2 tPvP, why are Rogues with perma stealth not considered detrimental to rated Battlegrounds in WoW?
Because the implementations aren’t identical. The maps are larger, you have more players to distribute between nodes, stealth movement speed is reduced, and the time it takes to neutralize/cap a node is considerably longer. The entire game dynamic is fairly different.
Also, calling incs is irrelevant in the context of this conversation since the whole point of the thread is that there are no incs to call – which is why portal mesmers are required.
@Noctred
Map size is irrelevant. You mount up and only stealth when about to enter combat if you’re going with your team. Just how you toss down a refuge before your team engages. However rogues were on defense 99% of the time because of sap and perma stealth.
Stealth movement isn’t reduced. It’s actually increased if spec’d for it. The same as GW2. The time it takes to cap a node is 10 seconds. The time it takes to cap a node in GW2 is 14. 19 if you have to neut it first. And stealthing stops the cap.
Your post was basically wrong on all 3 points ;p
Stealth speed in WoW, last I checked, was nearly identical to full speed. Also, I could easily prevent a solo player from capping a point for a minute or more in WoW without ever having to fight.
Calling incoming is irrelevant? I think I am starting to see the problem here. If you had someone tanky sitting on point who said “inc windmill 1” as soon as the Thief popped up, then properly had your roamers fall back to enforce the node, it wouldn’t be a problem. You once again prove that my point about you relying too much on Mesmer portal to win your games. Also, it took 10 seconds to cap something in WoW, but that was 10 seconds of uninterrupted cast time. Any attack interrupted you. I would say it is MUCH harder to cap a node in WoW than GW2 where you just sit on a node and any class that needs to kite or stealth will lose it.
@Noctred
Map size is irrelevant. You mount up and only stealth when about to enter combat if you’re going with your team. Just how you toss down a refuge before your team engages. However rogues were on defense 99% of the time because of sap and perma stealth.
Stealth movement isn’t reduced. It’s actually increased if spec’d for it. The same as GW2. The time it takes to cap a node is 10 seconds. The time it takes to cap a node in GW2 is 14. 19 if you have to neut it first. And stealthing stops the cap.
Your post was basically wrong on all 3 points ;p
Map size is perfectly relevant.
He isn’t talking about group fights. Jesus H Christ man, are you reading this thread at all?
He is talking about MOVING ACROSS THE MAP while under the affects of a very long stealth.
Also, I’m not sure if you are aware of this or not… but this is not WoW, and Thieves can not be accurately compared to Rogues. Completely different things.
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Your post was basically wrong on all 3 points ;p
Not really.
Yeah, you mount up and stealth prior to entering combat. However, this isn’t what you compare shadow refuge to. Thieves can traverse large portions of GW2 maps while stealthed because the maps are comparatively small, denying the other team any vision of you, which is the problem. If you’re a rogue crossing the field on a mount, the other team has full vision of you, which is less of a problem in the context of backcapping (which is the context of this thread).
Did you ever actually play rated AB? If you’re part of backcapping duty you’re going to be spending most of your time stealthed, off your mount. Yeah at least one rogue was frequently on defense thanks to fan of lol, but you typically had druid/rogue combos on backfield harass as well.
Also, I’m not sure if you are aware of this or not… but this is not WoW, and Thieves can not be accurately compared to Rogues. Completely different things.
It is perfectly alright to compare a much more powerful stealth mechanic (WoW) on larger maps (WoW) and why they aren’t a problem in WoW but you guys think they are a problem in GW2. We are comparing a 2 forms of Stealth and 2 forms of capture and hold PvP. The only reason you want to say not to compare it is because you obviously don’t like WoW and don’t want the golden child compared to it.
Better question then, in TOR how come a Jedi Shadow isn’t a problem on smaller sized maps like GW2… but they also have perma stealth. Explain that, and when you come to the realization that stealth isn’t the problem (you just hate thieves and would like to see them nerfed so they are the pigeon hole for everything wrong with the game) then you can let me know.
(edited by Ashanor.5319)
Did they change AB such that the 10 seconds of channeling on the node actually instantly caps? Last I played, it neutralized it, and you had to wait a significant amount of time before it was yours.
Regardless, this conversation is starting to nitpick about a game with wildly different mechanics. Stealth balance for WoW isn’t close to comparable to that for GW2.
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Calling incoming is irrelevant? I think I am starting to see the problem here. If you had someone tanky sitting on point who said “inc windmill 1” as soon as the Thief popped up, then properly had your roamers fall back to enforce the node, it wouldn’t be a problem.
If you have somebody tanky sitting on your home point, and the other team has a portal mesmer sitting on their home point, then you’re playing 4v5 in mid in the opposing team’s favor.
I really don’t understand where the disconnect is. It’s not about relying on portals, it’s about portals being the single most effective method to defend home point while also supporting mid fights – and shadow refuge moves it from effective to required.
It’s like we’re going in circles.
There are counters to it.
I played and won against Jumper last night on kylo in which he stealthed across the entire map. The only time he was able to backcap was when he won his thief 1v1 against me.
There are multiple ways to stop/counter it. Also, by sending a thief to backcap, you’re losing your DPS elsewhere. Which means if they have their DPS mid and you don’t, your team will be hard pressed to win that fight. Easiest way to counter a thief crossing the map stealthed is with a teleporting defense.
Calling incoming is irrelevant? I think I am starting to see the problem here. If you had someone tanky sitting on point who said “inc windmill 1” as soon as the Thief popped up, then properly had your roamers fall back to enforce the node, it wouldn’t be a problem.
If you have somebody tanky sitting on your home point, and the other team has a portal mesmer sitting on their home point, then you’re playing 4v5 in mid in the opposing team’s favor.
I really don’t understand where the disconnect is. It’s not about relying on portals, it’s about portals being the single most effective method to defend home point while also supporting mid fights – and shadow refuge moves it from effective to required.
It’s like we’re going in circles.
So get rid of portal. Everyone knows it is overpowered for multiple uses anyway. I mean, look at all the exploits it caused in WvW since release. Not to mention makes Mesmer the most effective class to ever use the trebs in Kylo.
The only reason you want to say not to compare it is because you obviously don’t like WoW and don’t want the golden child compared to it.
Also what?
I like AB and WSG way more than anything GW2 has to offer. That has nothing to do with it.
Easiest way to counter a thief crossing the map stealthed is with a teleporting defense.
That’s like… the entire point of the thread. I’m not even sure which side you’re arguing for.
Ashanor.5319So get rid of portal.
Fine with me, though I’d still say SR duration should be reduced considering how small the maps are.
Easiest way to counter a thief crossing the map stealthed is with a teleporting defense.
That’s like… the entire point of the thread. I’m not even sure which side you’re arguing for.
In tPvP, the main purpose a thief (BS&PW) brings over other classes is to get in unnoticed and burst someone down before they can react (because they didn’t notice you; less time to prepare/react).
10 Seconds of stealth just trivializes this as the enemy team can’t even tell what half of the map the thief is on.
Pretty sure the entire point of this thread was about a thief crossing the map unseen and bursting someone down. Since you know…that was the original post and why he decided to create it.
And further down the page -
Jumper.9482You’re not seeing the big picture here.
If you can pop up from mid to the enemy’s far point completely undetected at any time, that means the enemy team can’t have a bunker sitting inbetween points (ex: foefire: ele, engie on cliff).
So you either HAVE to have a mesmer on your team with portal on point, or fight mid 4v5.
I don’t want to see any one class being required for a team to compete competitively.
idk
I’ll take foefire as his example. Ele on cliff.
Keep track of the thief. Unless he refuges while in his gates, you can see him come out and refuge. If he does refuge inside his base, then you should know the spawn timers and when you need to head back just to be safe. If he engages mid, you just ride the lightning/swiftness and you’re back to mid very quickly. If your team loses because it’s 4v5 mid for 2-4 seconds, then you would have lost anyways because another person wouldn’t have stopped the coordinated burst.
Daays.4317If he does refuge inside his base, then you should know the spawn timers and when you need to head back just to be safe.
Which is really one of the bigger problems IMO. If you have a portal down on home, you don’t need to be safe unless the portal expires and you have to go back to drop another one.
A mesmer would be able to head mid right off the bat and chill there for as long as necessary without any real fear of a neutralize on home. An ele has to head back home just in case every time the spawn timers line up – and that’s abusable one way or the other. That fear of what could possibly happen is enough pressure by itself to give the other team an instant advantage elsewhere – that’s why a teleporting defense is best, as you said, and it’s why the long duration stealth that SR currently gives further narrows the game to portals on home over any other class.
Also, as a competitive player I figured you’d know that 2-4 seconds can be all you need to decide a fight.
And in those 2-4 seconds you couldn’t have done anything. If someone dies instantly from coordianted burst, it doesn’t matter if you had 10 people on your team. That person didn’t avoid it and is now down.
On foefire you need to play in between the point. If the thief shows up, you can make it there in time easily with swiftness. Plus his constant stealths will decap his progress made. If he goes mid, you swap dagger offhand, ride the lightning, and you’re back mid instantly.
Foefire was a poor example because it’s a straight shot from side points to mid, something easily covered by an ele.
(edited by Daays.4317)
Which is really one of the bigger problems IMO. If you have a portal down on home, you don’t need to be safe unless the portal expires and you have to go back to drop another one.
A mesmer would be able to head mid right off the bat and chill there for as long as necessary without any real fear of a neutralize on home. An ele has to head back home just in case every time the spawn timers line up – and that’s abusable one way or the other. That fear of what could possibly happen is enough pressure by itself to give the other team an instant advantage elsewhere – that’s why a teleporting defense is best, as you said, and it’s why the long duration stealth that SR currently gives further narrows the game to portals on home over any other class.
Also, as a competitive player I figured you’d know that 2-4 seconds can be all you need to decide a fight.
Your whole argument is about how strong portal is and how it is required, but then your solution is to nerf another class because of portal. The whole premise is ridiculous.
@Daays -
We can theorycraft all we want really. I mean, you never know what a chill field, a static field, or an extra AoE cleanse can do to a team fight in the span of several seconds – it might give the focus target just enough time to recover. Maybe people aren’t dying instantly. Maybe they’re dying gradually. Maybe people from both teams are down and that 2 seconds cost you a revive.
There are any number of things you could do in 2-4 seconds depending on the situation, but it’s all completely beside the point.
The point is really very simple – extended stealth from SR applies pressure that requires you to play proactively and occasionally divert resources away from problem areas “just in case”. That is, unless you play portals. It further pushes the meta towards portal defense – that’s my only real point.
Your whole argument is about how strong portal is and how it is required, but then your solution is to nerf another class because of portal. The whole premise is ridiculous.
Nah. My ideal solution is a reduction in the stealth time on SR once you leave the radius and some kind of limitation on portals – not really sure what at this point. I wouldn’t mind if that utility just didn’t exist in general.
Even if portal didn’t exist, I’d still probably like to see a reduction on stealth time once out of the SR radius because SR in its current state without portal defense would be even worse to play against IMO.
If it has counters, then it is by means not “absurdly overpowered”.
Absurdly overpowered would mean that no matter what you did, how you played, you could never overcome that obstacle.
SR is no where near that level. It doesn’t necessitate portal defense.
Also, portal is only strong if the team you’re playing against enjoys backcapping (assuming your mesmer is playing point defense). If they forsake backcapping for a stronger team fight pressence and hold their close/mid, then having portal on your hotbar is a waste. No reason to be two places at once if the other team is only in one spot.
(edited by Daays.4317)
The issue pointed in this topic is the long stealthy time (8 seconds) when SR ends and you can roam freely. Some people should be careful when using the word “nerf” as it seems they want SR nerfed as a whole ( heal , area , combo field ) and not only the stealth problem. Solution? Make you go visible if you leave the area but keep the 15 seconds stealth if you stay in.
Hey I didn’t title the thread – I just generally agree that it tends to push teams into certain comps and stunts growth.
As for this -
Daays.4317Also, portal is only strong if the team you’re playing against enjoys backcapping (assuming your mesmer is playing point defense). If they forsake backcapping for a stronger team fight pressence and hold their close/mid, then having portal on your hotbar is a waste. No reason to be two places at once if the other team is only in one spot.
IMO this kind of playstyle actually benefits portals just as much, if not more. If you never pressure their home point, then they’re free to 5-man zerg you at mid or wherever you’re trying to team fight. You can try to 5v5 them, but you better win that fight or you’re probably going to end up far behind – not to mention you’ll be leaving your close point completely exposed.
Only playing for close/mid and never pressuring far is too close to putting all your eggs in one basket for me.
Blinding powder and casting the heal with traits gives 8s of stealth as well. If you chain them after taking fall dmg you can get 12 sec..
Not sure if it’s here nor there but they are still sacrificing X utility slots to not be usable during the fight to do that (even if it’s just SR).
@Noctred: So they found a counter to your counter. Get back to the drawing board and find a new counter. Overcoming onstacles is how metas grow. Much like how overcoming obstacles makes us grow as people.
It’s not a counter to anything. I don’t think you understand what is being said.
The current meta typically involves a mesmer on home point who can leave a portal and then go team fight mid. If anybody is seen going for a backcap, the mesmer ports back home and stops the neut. However, it’s also possible to have other classes fill this role if your team’s map vision is good enough.
With shadow refuge granting as much stealth as it does, thieves can avoid all vision and simply show up on the enemy team’s home point completely unannounced. This effectively makes mesmers the ONLY valid home point defenders who can also assist in other areas of the map, because they’re the only ones who can make it back in time to stop the neut on home. If you place another class on your home while the opposing team has a mesmer on their home, then your team will be fighting 4v5 because your home point defender will need to sit there 24/7.
This effectively reinforces the already existing meta of putting a portal mesmer on your home point. It prevents the meta from evolving.
Does that make more sense?
So essentially, you’re complaining about a class who is defined by it’s ability to be “sneaky” (in every game out there involving the class…even FFXI had “Hide” for Thieves). You’re complaining that you can’t see someone traversing the map, and you want them to be out in the open like a normal kittening warrior (or kittened Ranger)?
You sir, are a tool. There is nothing wrong with Shadow Refuge, and I’m glad that they finally fixed the stealth-on-leaving bug. If you stealth in it and don’t leave, you get mauled by any smart player. If you see little “shadow swirlies” on the map and don’t see anyone there, that’s a Thief…attack it and all will be well when he hits you and pops.
Other than that, stop complaining. You can’t bunker with thief (well, you can, but not very well), and pretty much all other classes have more effective health than a Thief. Once Thief pops SR, HiS, there goes his heals. Sure, he can CnD or combo into stealth for minor heal (trait), but it’s not much…and the smartest thing to do when you see stealth is move out of the way.
After reading both pages, I still see no reason why you complain about Shadow Refuge. There are far more gimmicky skills out there. And for us Thieves who don’t play D/D Jinzu Burst Builds (or whatever they’re called now), Shadow Refuge is a very strong tool in keeping us alive.
Samuraiken.9581So essentially, you’re complaining about a class who is defined by it’s ability to be “sneaky” (in every game out there involving the class…even FFXI had “Hide” for Thieves). You’re complaining that you can’t see someone traversing the map, and you want them to be out in the open like a normal kittening warrior (or kittened Ranger)?
Grats on completely missing the point.
I give up.
Portal is bad. So is shadow refuge. They are both garbage “bring the class” skills.
The problem is Mesmer portal beeing the perfect most powerfull defence not thief beeing able to sneak up on your point( as a stealth class should)
Former Devils Inside Thief R43
Portal is bad. So is shadow refuge. They are both garbage “bring the class” skills.
As a thief i trait into stealth in Spvp, making my shadow refuge heal me around 6-7k if i stay invis all 15 seconds + removing all conditions. Its not crap at all, however its counters are quite obvious.
Former Devils Inside Thief R43
By bad I thought I was clear I meant bad for the game, not bad as in underpowered.
Both of those skills do more to ruin tPVP than almost everything else combined. The guardian gandalf staff skill is problematic too, but only on a few areas.
By bad I thought I was clear I meant bad for the game, not bad as in underpowered.
Both of those skills do more to ruin tPVP than almost everything else combined. The guardian gandalf staff skill is problematic too, but only on a few areas.
Well old shadow refuge was realy stupid… it gave 20 seconds invis (Not moving) autoattacks could have killed me in it, as i could not run out untill it was 3 seconds left. Atm its counterable easy if used in combat fear mesmer gs push heavy aoe and such still counter it. And actauly if you want to nerf shadow refuge its ok but fix Blinding powder then as other then that, i do not see myself using any stealth skills to do actaul damage.
Former Devils Inside Thief R43
The overpowered part is what the OP said, not in the in-combat use. That’s ok and counterable like you said.
The only counter to spawn-point SR is portal which is another “bring the class” skill that really doesn’t belong in the game.
I dont even need Sr for that… you can just use smoke bomb and few blast finishers for 15 seconds invis if i want . Diffrence ? none by the time im out of invis my innitiative wil be full again and Smoke bomb cooldown is shorter by 50%. Things like this always existed however its easier to achieve with SR now. Some players know nuthing of combos so just keep blabing.
Former Devils Inside Thief R43
Buff thieves, too weak, need permastealth
I dont even need Sr for that… you can just use smoke bomb and few blast finishers for 15 seconds invis if i want . Diffrence ? none by the time im out of invis my innitiative wil be full again and Smoke bomb cooldown is shorter by 50%. Things like this always existed however its easier to achieve with SR now. Some players know nuthing of combos so just keep blabing.
That at least requires an initiative dump…but I agree it’s problematic too.
Engi can do something similar.
What really ought to happen is stealth duration ought to reset rather than stack. I.e. you drop a smoke bomb, blast finisher = 3 seconds stealth, 1 second later you blast finish again = reset to 3 seconds stealth instead of going to 5 seconds stealth.
I dont even need Sr for that… you can just use smoke bomb and few blast finishers for 15 seconds invis if i want . Diffrence ?
They already nerfed smoke screen/cluster bomb once during the betas. They also nerfed engi mine field for the same reason.
It’s all the same and all of it needs to be toned down IMO. The maps are simply too small for it.
I currently feel pretty strong as a backstab thief and i’m not even using Shadow Refuge. Blinding Powder ftw man! <3
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Gandara – WvW Warrior
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This skill is honestly elite worthy with the recent changes.
I honestly don’t get why they made it possible to leave it without breaking out of stealth, it was pretty much the biggest difference between sr and blinding powder.
It’s not my fault if S/P is not popular !!!
Haha loving this; no trebuchet is safe any longer.
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