"Shake up the meta"

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Posted by: Ocosh.5843

Ocosh.5843

This phrase (the thread title) appeared in a message from Johanson on the main site at the beginning of last November. I found it unpleasant at the time (and not just because it features obnoxious gamerspeak) and it has not grown on me. At the worst it smacks of a hubris I would expect of the game’s economic planner and at the best it speaks to a well-intentioned clumsiness toward game balance.

Naturally, it would be foolish indeed to design a game without acknowledging that there will be demonstrably better builds that emerge, and that certain classes/professions will fill certain roles better than others. On the other hand, if one alters the professions with certain ends in mind and makes a mistake, then some players will suffer. It is the suggestion of perfect foresight that is most bothersome about the phrase, like everything that happens is by design. Was it intentional that Warriors and, to a lesser extent, Thieves simply not be viable in Season 1? What or who determines what makes one change important enough to effect mid-season (Mesmer) and lets another wait (say, Revenant)?


There seems to have been a recognition that boon-spewing contributed to the boring playstyle of S1, and that the fix for this was to dramatically boost Necromancer. Who has traditionally countered Necromancer? Warriors and Thieves. So just tweak them a little and they will regain their place! (50% success rate?) This slightly shifts the mix of professions without addressing the core problem; it’s just trying to create a train of counters chasing one another. We’ve heard this tale before: It’s The Old Woman Who Swallowed a Fly. It doesn’t end well.


There’s a difference between pushing professions toward certain roles and forcing them. Since HoT we have seen Guardians with longbows, Revenants with hammers (albeit less so in PvP), and lately Warriors with buffed rifles. Is this what they want to see? Heavies standing off-point blasting away while the tanky light-armors contest? (Is this what they expect in WvW? If so, I’d have to ask if they’ve ever played it before.) It’s a neat reversal of expectation, but also a bit of a gimmick. And it doesn’t entirely work. Elements of the core professions shine through. Chrono was never the bunker of yesteryear; Reaper still gets punted around; DH still brings some party support; etc. The elite specs give you the edge you need to survive, but they also created monsters, hybrids of what you did before and new powers, with some good and some poor results.


One of the biggest problems with the bunkers of S1 was that they lacked the shortcomings of the traditional bunker: they were highly mobile, put out appreciable damage, and took a small army to kill. I would point to a bygone bunker for a better model: the Guardian. It had good self-sustain, AoE condi-clear, and party support. But it was slow moving from point to point; you might not kill it 1v1, but it certainly wasn’t going to kill you; and once you pushed through its cooldowns, it could be defeated. Plus, as others have pointed out, Altruistic Healing meant that it was stronger with allies around and weaker standing on its own. It was nice to have one on your team, but too many meant you were in a bad spot. There were stages between different ability tweaks where it became more and less annoying to deal with, but it wasn’t up to the level of last season’s incarnations of the beast.


The “shoutbow” Warrior was admittedly a bad type of bunker, and I say this as someone who played it from time to time when looking for easy wins. It was quite mobile, had tremendous (and passive) sustain, and could kill certain enemies 1v1. In an attempt to “shake up the meta,” Warrior’s Healing Signet was hammered, warhorn was gutted (yet another blow to WvW, but they don’t care), and shouts were eviscerated. At the time, Warrior could rely on its natural tankiness and high damage output to maintain a place in the game. Then came HoT, when everyone’s damage went up, and Warrior was given a wholly selfish trait line, which unlike every single other elite spec in the game offered no real sustain. And Warrior died. Warrior still offers nice offensive support in PvE, but the attempt to deny them defensive support without forethought for the coming changes left them useless.


Before S1, Mesmer struggled to find a place at the highest tiers of play with a very few notable exceptions. Mes was essentially a sneaky burst class with occasional mobility. There was just one problem: This fellow named Thief was a sneakier, burstier class with exceptional mobility. Some of the most recent tweaks seemed aimed at encouraging more of this type of role, such as scepter and Fresh Air buffs (not going to happen) for Elementalist, or increasing Warrior’s damage output. Anybody that does what Thief does but not as well as Thief is going to be inferior to Thief. This will be doubly so if Thief handily counters the build (e.g., Mes (less so now than before) and burst Ele). Making Thief bad in team fights or weak in 1v1s doesn’t encourage the use of alternatives; it just puts more weight on smart rotations.


The new system of having each game move one’s card a single “pip” up or down, by win or loss, works if and only if we can assume an ideal matchmaking system that will consistently produce competitive matchups. We have no reason to expect this to be the case. Why remove one of the few elements of the system that largely worked well last time?

I understand that the game is played at all levels of skill and intensity, and that just because something is true at the top level doesn’t mean it’s true everywhere. However, by design, there is high visibility to those top-level players, and people tend to follow what they do. Furthermore, even in the middle ranks having a better or worse build makes a difference.

There will never be perfect balance — this is a given — but there are better and worse approximations thereof, and when one comes out and states its intent to shuffle the deck, we the players naturally grow leery about the hands to be dealt. When one is shaking things up on this stage, one has to be very, very particular about where the pieces fall.

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Posted by: choovanski.5462

choovanski.5462

excellent post. it’s a sad time for gw2 balance to be sure.

. Engi & Warr . Beta > 2017 Death of PvP
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

+1 great analysis. Spoilers were spot on. I even laughed a bit at the first few sentences of “I’m a knight,bang,bang”. This is exactly why having a game that HAS to be balanced around a certain game mode, yet the majority of thoughtful players’ communication attempts seem ignored, will have eternal struggles. Though you didn’t state it outright, I think this (obvious?) philosophy would go a long way to relieve some of our current problems, in PvP and other modes.

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Posted by: Steelstickfig.9146

Steelstickfig.9146

This is perhaps one of the best concise descriptions of the current problems with how spvp is being handled currently – especially the bit on boon corruptions and elite spec versatility. You should honestly post/link to this on the gw2 subreddit, you’d get way more praise over there.

It cannot be stressed enough that power creep is one of the most dangerous things to happen in a pvp-oriented game. It’s inevitable, sure, but can be kept in check. Almost all of the dominating elite specs are dominating because of just how well they cover for a given professions’s classic flaws. If anything, the idea of outright replacing certain elements of a profession’s profession skills should’ve been stuck to as was seen in Reaper (one of the better designed elite specs, imo). If the elite specs are going to offer everything that the base class offers and then some, of course they’ll be overloaded.

And as far as buffing X to nerf Y, take a look at another semi-competitive game that attempted a similar methodology: Hearthstone. Anyone who plays any of that game knows that that method simply doesn’t work – because it not only limits build diversity (you need X card to counter Y card; you need X profession w/ X build to counter Y profession), but also means that unless your comp has said class, you’re gonna have a bad time.

Do you play necromancer? Me too.

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Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

This phrase (the thread title) appeared in a message from Johanson on the main site at the beginning of last November. I found it unpleasant at the time (and not just because it features obnoxious gamerspeak) and it has not grown on me. At the worst it smacks of a hubris I would expect of the game’s economic planner and at the best it speaks to a well-intentioned clumsiness toward game balance.

Naturally, it would be foolish indeed to design a game without acknowledging that there will be demonstrably better builds that emerge, and that certain classes/professions will fill certain roles better than others. On the other hand, if one alters the professions with certain ends in mind and makes a mistake, then some players will suffer. It is the suggestion of perfect foresight that is most bothersome about the phrase, like everything that happens is by design. Was it intentional that Warriors and, to a lesser extent, Thieves simply not be viable in Season 1? What or who determines what makes one change important enough to effect mid-season (Mesmer) and lets another wait (say, Revenant)?


There seems to have been a recognition that boon-spewing contributed to the boring playstyle of S1, and that the fix for this was to dramatically boost Necromancer. Who has traditionally countered Necromancer? Warriors and Thieves. So just tweak them a little and they will regain their place! (50% success rate?) This slightly shifts the mix of professions without addressing the core problem; it’s just trying to create a train of counters chasing one another. We’ve heard this tale before: It’s The Old Woman Who Swallowed a Fly. It doesn’t end well.


There’s a difference between pushing professions toward certain roles and forcing them. Since HoT we have seen Guardians with longbows, Revenants with hammers (albeit less so in PvP), and lately Warriors with buffed rifles. Is this what they want to see? Heavies standing off-point blasting away while the tanky light-armors contest? (Is this what they expect in WvW? If so, I’d have to ask if they’ve ever played it before.) It’s a neat reversal of expectation, but also a bit of a gimmick. And it doesn’t entirely work. Elements of the core professions shine through. Chrono was never the bunker of yesteryear; Reaper still gets punted around; DH still brings some party support; etc. The elite specs give you the edge you need to survive, but they also created monsters, hybrids of what you did before and new powers, with some good and some poor results.


One of the biggest problems with the bunkers of S1 was that they lacked the shortcomings of the traditional bunker: they were highly mobile, put out appreciable damage, and took a small army to kill. I would point to a bygone bunker for a better model: the Guardian. It had good self-sustain, AoE condi-clear, and party support. But it was slow moving from point to point; you might not kill it 1v1, but it certainly wasn’t going to kill you; and once you pushed through its cooldowns, it could be defeated. Plus, as others have pointed out, Altruistic Healing meant that it was stronger with allies around and weaker standing on its own. It was nice to have one on your team, but too many meant you were in a bad spot. There were stages between different ability tweaks where it became more and less annoying to deal with, but it wasn’t up to the level of last season’s incarnations of the beast.


The “shoutbow” Warrior was admittedly a bad type of bunker, and I say this as someone who played it from time to time when looking for easy wins. It was quite mobile, had tremendous (and passive) sustain, and could kill certain enemies 1v1. In an attempt to “shake up the meta,” Warrior’s Healing Signet was hammered, warhorn was gutted (yet another blow to WvW, but they don’t care), and shouts were eviscerated. At the time, Warrior could rely on its natural tankiness and high damage output to maintain a place in the game. Then came HoT, when everyone’s damage went up, and Warrior was given a wholly selfish trait line, which unlike every single other elite spec in the game offered no real sustain. And Warrior died. Warrior still offers nice offensive support in PvE, but the attempt to deny them defensive support without forethought for the coming changes left them useless.


Before S1, Mesmer struggled to find a place at the highest tiers of play with a very few notable exceptions. Mes was essentially a sneaky burst class with occasional mobility. There was just one problem: This fellow named Thief was a sneakier, burstier class with exceptional mobility. Some of the most recent tweaks seemed aimed at encouraging more of this type of role, such as scepter and Fresh Air buffs (not going to happen) for Elementalist, or increasing Warrior’s damage output. Anybody that does what Thief does but not as well as Thief is going to be inferior to Thief. This will be doubly so if Thief handily counters the build (e.g., Mes (less so now than before) and burst Ele). Making Thief bad in team fights or weak in 1v1s doesn’t encourage the use of alternatives; it just puts more weight on smart rotations.


The new system of having each game move one’s card a single “pip” up or down, by win or loss, works if and only if we can assume an ideal matchmaking system that will consistently produce competitive matchups. We have no reason to expect this to be the case. Why remove one of the few elements of the system that largely worked well last time?

I understand that the game is played at all levels of skill and intensity, and that just because something is true at the top level doesn’t mean it’s true everywhere. However, by design, there is high visibility to those top-level players, and people tend to follow what they do. Furthermore, even in the middle ranks having a better or worse build makes a difference.

There will never be perfect balance — this is a given — but there are better and worse approximations thereof, and when one comes out and states its intent to shuffle the deck, we the players naturally grow leery about the hands to be dealt. When one is shaking things up on this stage, one has to be very, very particular about where the pieces fall.

Exactly, get off the gamerspeak. The integrity of pvp has SUFFERED. I played scrapper for the first time for FIVE MINUTES in unranked doing 1v2 on these teams. It’s NONSENSE.

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Posted by: hackks.3687

hackks.3687

Excellent post OP. 100% agree

Hackkz/Riggamaroll
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

A very nice analysis, unfortunately wasted on deaf ears.

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Posted by: TheLargeUnit.2793

TheLargeUnit.2793

I completely agree but unfortunatly nothing will ever get done. This game was ready for esports until the HoT powerstampeede killed it

Achmed Afro Thunder ~ Six Ft Pole Achmed ~ Dharok The Ravenous
Long Live [ASAP] Zerg: The greatest guild that ever was or will be.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Excellent analysis. In order to have better balance in spvp, we need to have the elite specs toned down and warrior group support/sustain nerfs need to be reverted. We really need both, because even if they would revert the ill-thought warhorn nerfs on warrior and make shouts heal slightly more, that wouldn’t still make warrior viable in high end play. Lots of blocks, evades, high protection uptime and invulnerability is still going to be better as demonstrated by the current meta.

Thief has almost always been gating the other berserker professions. You can spec ele or mesmer etc. as berserker, but a skilled thief or two will eat you alive and have superior mobility + ability to reset fights.

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

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Posted by: Daishi.6027

Daishi.6027

Omg yes all of this.

“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”

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Posted by: Asrat.2645

Asrat.2645

Forgive me for beeing observant, but ist that exactly what the thief profession should do? Pick out the weakest link (the one that actually dies if you hit’em), appear out of nowhere, finish them of and go back into the shadows. It should be dangerous to run a zerker build with a thief around, thats kinda the point.
However +1k for the bunker analysis. I hated bunker guards (kinda natural as a thief) but im really starting to miss them now. Those were bunkers done right. I believe the auramancers are still a lot like the guards used to be, just with offering the same sustain if on their own.
And, actually you got a point on the elite specs. I never really noticed it before, but they are all focussed around covering aspects, where the class should be weak by concept. The question remains: why?

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

And, actually you got a point on the elite specs. I never really noticed it before, but they are all focussed around covering aspects, where the class should be weak by concept. The question remains: why?

Except for warrior’s elite spec berserker. Warrior’s biggest weakness right now is lack of sustain and berserker really doesn’t help much with it. I am very well aware of “Savage Instinct” and “Dead or Alive” and “Eternal Champion” traits and use them on my warrior build, but still the sustain is subpar compared revenants, druids, auramancers, reapers, scrappers etc. The problem is that the core warrior spec sustain is too low for the current meta.

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

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Posted by: Dojo.1867

Dojo.1867

Giving warrior also more sustain now would be a typical arenanet move.

To me it feels like warrior is the only remotely balanced class with deticated weaknesses and actually decent build/traitline variety.

The sustain/defense of all the other classes elite spec is silly and needs to be toned down for all of them.

Druid – CA was not intended to refill so fast/be on such a low cd making the associated traits (stunbreak, full condi clear) and the healing broken.

Scrapper – Way too much defense in a single GM trait (also both, condi and direct which they almost never did before) and hammer skills with sick damage while also reflecting/evading/blocking.

Daredevil – They continue with the permanent evasion game pidgeonwholing thief into this glass cannon role.

Tempest – This spec feels closest to warrior in terms of the traitline and weapon skills. They kittened up when they randomly decided the new heal should also heal the whole team for 8k.

Herald – Don’t even get me started on the stupidity that is crystal hibernation and permanent stunbreaking/evading paired with stability. Any defensive stats feel silly on this class.

Dragonhunter – Yeah let’s make the new f2 heal for 4k, why not. Let’s give dh a second healing skill out of nowhere with instantly resettable cooldown. Very squishy class indeed. /s

Chrono – There was so much wrong with this class but it already recieved the nerf bat. The silly defensive mechanics remain but atleast got toned down.

Reaper – 50k hp. Now with mobility. Oh also everyone around you is slowed now and takes 700 dmg per second. Have fun.

(edited by Dojo.1867)