Guild Wars 2

Hi, I’m GW1 player, and I did want, with all my heart to see return on Random-Arena.

For those who don’t know what that is I’ll explain:

• It’s a solo queue with death match style of 5v5
• you get paired with 4 random people
• if all players on one side are dead, that team is defeated and the team that won, will go in next round.
• There is no re-spawn once you are dead.
• There is no reviving once you are fully dead.
• If you win, your team will continue in the next round, Maximum rounds is 25, if you lose, your team is kicked into the lobby.
• Higher you climb higher reward you get.
• If player doesn’t want to continue, you can go out on the end of the round, and that player is replaced with random person.
• You can change your build in Ready position before round starts.
• No time frame[all fights were cca 2-10 min long].
• Example
• As some1 reminded me, we had no queue, 10-15 sec waiting only to fill the round with players.

This was a game mode of true skill, honor, pride, helping each other like a brother or sister to push harder to the top, a joy and meaning of PvP, where many times you felt like a hero for defeating enemy team as last man standing.

We have none of this in Conquest, a wanna-be-eSports-like game mode, enforced way of playing that MOBA brought to us.

Where are death match maps? I’ve expected at least two of them with better design then Courtyard, less clustered.

But all we got was Stronghold and removal of Courtyard, shame to remove the best PvP mode from original Guild Wars.

Sure sounds like fun!

That mode sounds awesome…. if they added that. The population of normal conquest would tank so hard…

I’ll pretend I didn’t read that and go back begging the druid on my team to help mid and not farm the npcs.

I think the game mode sounds interesting, but you’re forgetting the part where all of the teams that cause the players to yell at each other for being terrible, and everyone complains about the MMR of the random matching with new players against another team that has a bunch of experience players, or randomly matching up poor class comps. The complaining about RNG involved would be endless.

Defeating an enemy team as the last man standing might happen a time or two over the course of a long period of time. I’m not sure where you’re getting “many times”.

Tbh, that mode was more of a check if you have monk in team :P

But I’m all for this. Progressing with people was awesome.

In general, I’m all for more fun game modes. They don’t have to be competitive or super-esports, at all. Something like Codex Arena which would make people craft their builds or go in with semi-random crappy ones. Doesn’t have to be balanced – for people who don’t know, I’d compare it to good Tavern Brawls in Hearthstone. Mode that would simply encourage using stuff you usually don’t in meta game. All Thieves have to run Scorpion Wire, Engineers having Gadgets traits chosen by default, Warriors using OH Axe etc. with rules swapping weekly.

I’m down. Since there is no respawn and the match is strictly based on combat, something like this would be easier to develop.

Firelysm.4967:

This was a game mode of true skill…

Not really, death match is one of the lowest skilled PvP modes out there, there is nothing you have to do in death match, that you don’t have to do in pretty much every other PvP mode, other PvP modes then have aspects on top of teamfights, that raise the skill cap like map awareness, more decision making, , more communication, etc.

That aside the whole progression as you win is pretty good though, though 25 rounds seems a bit excessive.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I think the game mode sounds interesting, but you’re forgetting the part where all of the teams that cause the players to yell at each other for being terrible, and everyone complains about the MMR of the random matching with new players against another team that has a bunch of experience players, or randomly matching up poor class comps. The complaining about RNG involved would be endless.

Defeating an enemy team as the last man standing might happen a time or two over the course of a long period of time. I’m not sure where you’re getting “many times”.

That’s the eSports thing.
In 5 years playing GW1, i cannot remember one incident with players, because fights are short and interesting, if your team is good you’ll continue to next round, and if you are bad, you’ll eventually lose and not climb far.

eSports is making this toxicity, from my gaming experience Random Arena from GW1 was the best thing, aside from GvG. RA had so much respect and pride, people were hyping each other to get to the next round.

I miss those times when people were team working and not jerking own members.

@OP, +1

Rym.1469:

Tbh, that mode was more of a check if you have monk in team :P

It’s a lie.
You could overcome lack of Monk in team and still win those ~20 games.

zinkz.7045:

Firelysm.4967:

This was a game mode of true skill…

Not really, death match is one of the lowest skilled PvP modes out there, there is nothing you have to do in death match, that you don’t have to do in pretty much every other PvP mode, other PvP modes then have aspects on top of teamfights, that raise the skill cap like map awareness, more decision making, , more communication, etc.

That aside the whole progression as you win is pretty good though, though 25 rounds seems a bit excessive.

You are so wrong on so many levels.

A dead player in death match map as i’ve described has a crucial meaning for team.
A dead player in GW2 sPvP has no meaning at all, you respawn soon enough, and has minor effect on outcome.

Speaking of map awareness is nothing special. Yet again if you speak about map awareness, say hi to GvG from GW1, yet another game mode that can say, GW2 sPvP is more casual then ever. And for those that say Stronghold = GvG, please Mr.John Snow Driving a car is way more complicated then playing sPvP, you have to control so many things, and be ready for unpredictable, but yet you do it so easy. You just have to get used to it, same goes for map awareness.

Personal opinion about what you prefer, but like it or not, Death Match has more team fight synergy required then GW2 sPvP. GW2 is more like about capping de-capping and sustaining. Which takes out the core thing of death match. Eliminating the weakest to prevail and a tactical extraction for further fights, while GW2 is simply delaying the death, to make fights outnumbered, and re-spawning reduces so much skill because, in deathmatch you die once and you left your weight on the team to carry you. While GW2 spvp has no meaning if you die, you wipe but you can recover and still come up strong. In Deathmatch players are a lot more driven by being careful and not yolo stuff like ppl do it here.

Once you know how to rotate, you win 99% of the matches.
In death match is a pure skill of individual and ability to work with the team and use what you were given with random team mates.

No offence taken, you prefer MOBA style, I prefer DM, but deathmatch will always be true player vs player.

EDIT: OP sorry if i went hard on this, but i don’t approve MOBA e sports retaking the GW2, arena net should be more proud on their own game modes from original Guild Wars. And less copycat about MOBA dur hur.

Morwath.9817:

It’s a lie.
You could overcome lack of Monk in team and still win those ~20 games.

He’s actually correct. Anet had to introduce abandonment rules because people would commonly abandon an RA match-up if they didn’t have a monk on their team. If you had a monk on your team, and if the monk was any decent (basically if it was a prot monk, not a healing monk), you would go further than any comp simply because the monk was in your team. Not to mention the AIDS that was 55hp monks.

For those who don’t know, there was a monk skill in the game that capped max damage onto an ally to 10% of its health as long as the enchantment was on them – one of the best protection skills in the game, which prevented nukes. So a 55hp monk would take, at most, would take 5 dmg from anything. Then 55hp monks would use regen spells, raw damage negation, with a bit of burst healing to top off their extremely low health in a rapid amount of time. So they would sit there in spawn and spam these spells. If your team comp in random arena didn’t have enchant removal (which was common because it was random arena), matches with a 55hp monk would last forever. The goal of the 55hp monks was to force the other team to leave the match. It was THE definition AIDS. Not this whiny “It’s not me, it’s because the other guy,” bullkitten people try to convince themselves of these days.

Also there WAS ressing, but most commonly in the form of resurrection signet – a one-time res for one downed ally.

I don’t know how something like this would play out in GW2 though. It could backfire having consecutive matches like this, but it’s an interesting idea.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Morwath.9817:

It’s a lie.
You could overcome lack of Monk in team and still win those ~20 games.

He’s actually correct.

Probably those winning streaks without Monk were nothing but my imagination…

About 55hp monks…
You know that you could remove Protective Spirit just with e.g. Strip Enchantment and kill them?

Morwath.9817:

Probably those winning streaks without Monk were nothing but my imagination… oh wait…

Your own experiences do not matter in the grande scheme of things; no offense.

Firelysm.4967:

Hi, I’m GW1 player, and I did want, with all my heart to see return on Random-Arena.

For those who don’t know what that is I’ll explain:

• It’s a solo queue with death match style of 5v5
• you get paired with 4 random people
• if all players on one side are dead, that team is defeated and the team that won, will go in next round.
• There is no re-spawn once you are dead.
• There is no reviving once you are fully dead.
• If you win, your team will continue in the next round, Maximum rounds is 25, if you lose, your team is kicked into the lobby.
• Higher you climb higher reward you get.
• If player doesn’t want to continue, you can go out on the end of the round, and that player is replaced with random person.
• You can change your build in Ready position before round starts.
• No time frame[all fights were cca 2-10 min long].
• Example

This was a game mode of true skill, honor, pride, helping each other like a brother or sister to push harder to the top, a joy and meaning of PvP, where many times you felt like a hero for defeating enemy team as last man standing.

We have none of this in Conquest, a wanna-be-eSports-like game mode, enforced way of playing that MOBA brought to us.

Where are death match maps? I’ve expected at least two of them with better design then Courtyard, less clustered.

But all we got was Stronghold and removal of Courtyard, shame to remove the best PvP mode from original Guild Wars.

RA was the best.

i think u forgot to mention that, since it was random arena, there was no, mmr, so no clicking around w/ ur click waiting for 3-5min queues. 30sec queue and fight.

and since the fights were tdm, they were usu very short, so even if the team was awful, u didn’t have to torture yurself for 10+ mins only to lose. when the team was terrible, they were dead and u could re-queue in <2 or 3 mins

Firelysm.4967:

A dead player in death match map as i’ve described has a crucial meaning for team.
A dead player in GW2 sPvP has no meaning at all, you respawn soon enough, and has minor effect on outcome.

Yeah normally in deathmatch in an MMO, where the skill cap is considerably lower than say an FPS, a dead player more often than not means round over, which is one of the reasons it is a kittenty mode in MMOs.

Firelysm.4967:

Speaking of map awareness is nothing special. Yet again if you speak about map awareness, say hi to GvG from GW1, yet another game mode that can say, GW2 sPvP is more casual then ever.

Irrelevant, we are talking about death match random arena, not GvG, arena deathmatch is simply the most simplistic lowest skill cap mode there is, now you may like the mode, but that changes nothing, all it is, essentially is a teamfight, which is why most PvP modes in MMOs, MOBAs, etc, try and add things like objectives, some compelxity into the map, etc, because it ups the skill cap, ups the need for communication, the need for map awareness, etc.

Firelysm.4967:

Personal opinion about what you prefer, but like it or not, Death Match has more team fight synergy required then GW2 sPvP.

Death match has simplistic synergy, whatever wins the teamfight, more complex modes require more aspects beyond what is good in a team fight, which is superior.

Firelysm.4967:

Eliminating the weakest to prevail…

Probably one of the most tedious aspects of deathmatch in MMOs is all it really consists of is focusing the easiest to kill class/build, which generally is decided by the game design/balance, as opposed to player skill, which tells you all you need to know about the low skill level, and why MMOs add things like objectives to try and bring up the skill level and increase decision making,

Firelysm.4967:

In death match is a pure skill of individual…

Deathmatch is the lowest skilled, most simplistic mode out there, the only time it works is when the inherent game mechanics take a lot of skill like certain FPS (well lots for a video game, lets be honest video games are low skilled in the grand scheme of things), MMOs are in comparison a joke.

Firelysm.4967:

No offence taken, you prefer MOBA style, I prefer DM, but deathmatch will always be true player vs player….

If I liked MOBAs I’d play MOBAs, PvP in MMOs is genreally nothing like MOBAs, having a capture point or killing the lord on Foefire, does not equate to a MOBA, in MMOs deathmatch is low skilled and is tediously one dimensional, if you prefer that fine, but stop deluding yourself over its “merits”.

zinkz, have you played GW1 RA, or just sharing WoW experiences?

Firelysm.4967:

For those who don’t know what that is I’ll explain:

• It’s a solo queue with death match style of 5v5
• you get paired with 4 random people
• if all players on one side are dead, that team is defeated and the team that won, will go in next round.
• There is no re-spawn once you are dead.
• There is no reviving once you are fully dead.
• If you win, your team will continue in the next round, Maximum rounds is 25, if you lose, your team is kicked into the lobby.
• Higher you climb higher reward you get.
• If player doesn’t want to continue, you can go out on the end of the round, and that player is replaced with random person.
• You can change your build in Ready position before round starts.
• No time frame[all fights were cca 2-10 min long].
• Example

This was a game mode of true skill, honor, pride, helping each other like a brother or sister to push harder to the top, a joy and meaning of PvP, where many times you felt like a hero for defeating enemy team as last man standing.

NONONONO

This is bad, this is cancer.
I play SW:TOR for 4 years right through the period when that game transitioned from 8v8 ranked (which was like conquest) to Arenas (which used the exact rules you outlined above)
This game type is pure and complete cancer. It’s near impossible to balance, it promotes class stacking, it has little to no strategic play and promotes some of the most kitten play I’ve ever experienced. And random team selection makes it even worse.

Since you have random teams, you can’t depend on support. So all strategies and builds that require support or coordination beyond “focus X dude first, then focus Y” is gone. Also because of this, the only viable builds for such a gamemode will be builds that are extremely self-sufficient with high levels of sustain. Or in other words it’ll be bruisers only, and even then only a couple bruiser builds will even be viable.

Since the is no respawn, strategy boils down to having everyone focus fire whichever enemy player is the squishiest (thieves you’re worthless here even with sb#5), once they die you’ve got a +1 situation. This detail means that comebacks in this gamemode are super rare, and most matches will be blowouts.

Never, EVER do this. It’s bad enough in SW:TOR which has full trinity, this game would be destroyed by such a gamemode. With GW2 TTK the average match time would be maybe 30 seconds.

Crinn does make a good point. Maybe this game mode worked for GW1 for some magical reason, but I can definitely see this mode being almost exclusively bruiser builds.

Exactly what zinkz.7045 says.

And RA has never been a “skillfull gamemode” in gw1. Hell, it was random… Queue till a good group comp comes and farm those 25 victories. Thats what its been basically about.
Its been fun and a nice way of passing the time while waiting for gvg, but this was nothing like serious gameplay. Team Arena was a thing, too bad they removed it…

And “a dead player in GW2 sPvP has no meaning at all”??? Creating majorites through kills and rotations is what gw2 is all about… Whats worse than dieing?

With the release of gw2 i was thinking the same, continued to play gw1(my guild still plays the monthly gvg tournaments, lol) and stuff. But after lots of time i started to enjoy conquest. It really needs some time to get used to and to fully understand the gameplay, but for me its the best game mode for gw2 without a doubt. I would never wanna exchange it with deathmatch.
And honestly its pretty similar to gw1 gvg, compared to playing a split build.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

Exactly what zinkz.7045 says.

And RA has never been a “skillfull gamemode” in gw1. Hell, it was random… Queue till a good group comp comes and farm those 25 victories. Thats what its been basically about.
Its been fun and a nice way of passing the time while waiting for gvg, but this was nothing like serious gameplay. Team Arena was a thing, too bad they removed it…

And “a dead player in GW2 sPvP has no meaning at all”??? Creating majorites through kills and rotations is what gw2 is all about… Whats worse than dieing?

With the release of gw2 i was thinking the same, continued to play gw1(my guild still plays the monthly gvg tournaments, lol) and stuff. But after lots of time i started to enjoy conquest. It really needs some time to get used to and to fully understand the gameplay, but for me its the best game mode for gw2 without a doubt. I would never wanna exchange it with deathmatch.
And honestly its pretty similar to gw1 gvg, compared to playing a split build.

I disagree.
I remember game where Abjured was dying like little kittens ;-), yet they won 500-200 or so (it wasn’t Foefire) and it was prefect match to show what about CQ really is and show its weaknesses as gamemode:
→ It’s often worth to die to prevent cap/decap if someone can jump in your place during your downtime (even if you end dead).
→ Because in CQ often rotations are often more important than actual fights.

Morwath.9817:

I disagree.
I remember game where Abjured was dying like little kittens ;-), yet they won 500-200 or so (it wasn’t Foefire) and it was prefect match to show what about CQ really is and show its weaknesses as gamemode:
-> It’s often worth to die to prevent cap/decap if someone can jump in your place during your downtime (even if you end dead).
-> Because in CQ often rotations are often more important than actual fights.

But going to a gamemode like the one suggested by the OP would become far worse in terms of the effects on quality of play.

And strategic play is a type of skill in itself. Players using a strategy to win a otherwise losing situation is a measure of skill in itself. No-respawn TDM doesn’t have strategic play and really doesn’t involve much personal skill either since matches usually come down to which team has the worst player on it, rather than which team has the best player on it.

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

I disagree.
I remember game where Abjured was dying like little kittens ;-), yet they won 500-200 or so (it wasn’t Foefire) and it was prefect match to show what about CQ really is and show its weaknesses as gamemode:
-> It’s often worth to die to prevent cap/decap if someone can jump in your place during your downtime (even if you end dead).
-> Because in CQ often rotations are often more important than actual fights.

But going to a gamemode like the one suggested by the OP would become far worse in terms of the effects on quality of play.

And strategic play is a type of skill in itself. Players using a strategy to win a otherwise losing situation is a measure of skill in itself. No-respawn TDM doesn’t have strategic play and really doesn’t involve much personal skill either since matches usually come down to which team has the worst player on it, rather than which team has the best player on it.

Nope. It just causes more balance problems, because even if all professions would have 50% vs each other and skill would decide 1v1 and 2v2 situations and so on then more tanky (who can hold for longer, even few seconds of longer cap/decap than enemies can decide “close enough” match) and more mobile (who can +1 more frequently or move between points) composition is better, which makes even more imbalances.

Morwath.9817:

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

I disagree.
I remember game where Abjured was dying like little kittens ;-), yet they won 500-200 or so (it wasn’t Foefire) and it was prefect match to show what about CQ really is and show its weaknesses as gamemode:
-> It’s often worth to die to prevent cap/decap if someone can jump in your place during your downtime (even if you end dead).
-> Because in CQ often rotations are often more important than actual fights.

But going to a gamemode like the one suggested by the OP would become far worse in terms of the effects on quality of play.

And strategic play is a type of skill in itself. Players using a strategy to win a otherwise losing situation is a measure of skill in itself. No-respawn TDM doesn’t have strategic play and really doesn’t involve much personal skill either since matches usually come down to which team has the worst player on it, rather than which team has the best player on it.

Nope. It just causes more balance problems, because even if all professions would have 50% vs each other and skill would decide 1v1 and 2v2 situations and so on then more tanky (who can hold for longer, even few seconds of longer cap/decap than enemies can decide “close enough” match) and more mobile (who can +1 more frequently or move between points) composition is better, which makes even more imbalances.

I don’t think you’ve actually played a mmo with competitive TDM. Yes conquest is certainly flawed but TDM is downright broken.

Any TDM with no respawns, revolves around nuking the kitten out of the other team’s weakest link. Glass builds are garbage. Anything that requires support is garbage. Anything and can’t escape a focus fire is garbage. Anything that requires any amount of setup is garbage.

Don’t believe me?

the only way you could make no-respawn TDM work is if the entire combat system and the classes themselves where designed solely with no-respawn PvP in mind.

Morwath.9817:

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

I disagree.
I remember game where Abjured was dying like little kittens ;-), yet they won 500-200 or so (it wasn’t Foefire) and it was prefect match to show what about CQ really is and show its weaknesses as gamemode:
-> It’s often worth to die to prevent cap/decap if someone can jump in your place during your downtime (even if you end dead).
-> Because in CQ often rotations are often more important than actual fights.

But going to a gamemode like the one suggested by the OP would become far worse in terms of the effects on quality of play.

And strategic play is a type of skill in itself. Players using a strategy to win a otherwise losing situation is a measure of skill in itself. No-respawn TDM doesn’t have strategic play and really doesn’t involve much personal skill either since matches usually come down to which team has the worst player on it, rather than which team has the best player on it.

Nope. It just causes more balance problems, because even if all professions would have 50% vs each other and skill would decide 1v1 and 2v2 situations and so on then more tanky (who can hold for longer, even few seconds of longer cap/decap than enemies can decide “close enough” match) and more mobile (who can +1 more frequently or move between points) composition is better, which makes even more imbalances.

You can try and disagree all you want but it doesn’t make what they said any less truthful. And arena net is not foolish to implement such a bad game mode. Conquest might be flawed but not at the level of TDM.

Anyway who are you trying to convince with your weak argumens? Us, yourself or arena net? Convincing us is easy, convincing arena net…is not.

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

I disagree.
I remember game where Abjured was dying like little kittens ;-), yet they won 500-200 or so (it wasn’t Foefire) and it was prefect match to show what about CQ really is and show its weaknesses as gamemode:
-> It’s often worth to die to prevent cap/decap if someone can jump in your place during your downtime (even if you end dead).
-> Because in CQ often rotations are often more important than actual fights.

But going to a gamemode like the one suggested by the OP would become far worse in terms of the effects on quality of play.

And strategic play is a type of skill in itself. Players using a strategy to win a otherwise losing situation is a measure of skill in itself. No-respawn TDM doesn’t have strategic play and really doesn’t involve much personal skill either since matches usually come down to which team has the worst player on it, rather than which team has the best player on it.

Nope. It just causes more balance problems, because even if all professions would have 50% vs each other and skill would decide 1v1 and 2v2 situations and so on then more tanky (who can hold for longer, even few seconds of longer cap/decap than enemies can decide “close enough” match) and more mobile (who can +1 more frequently or move between points) composition is better, which makes even more imbalances.

I don’t think you’ve actually played a mmo with competitive TDM. Yes conquest is certainly flawed but TDM is downright broken.

Any TDM with no respawns, revolves around nuking the kitten out of the other team’s weakest link. Glass builds are garbage. Anything that requires support is garbage. Anything and can’t escape a focus fire is garbage. Anything that requires any amount of setup is garbage.

Don’t believe me?

the only way you could make no-respawn TDM work is if the entire combat system and the classes themselves where designed solely with no-respawn PvP in mind.

I’ve played most major MMOs mostly for PvP since 1999 or 2000… and I can tell you that RA like TDM is perfect mode for following players:
-> Players who don’t have much time or just dislike wasting time in ques or lost matches that last eternity [matches are fast, there is no MMR so ques should be short]
-> Players who prefer action than capping and rotating around the map [action! no time wasted for rotating, runing around, respawning etc].
-> Players who hate playing against any kind premades.

RA suggested by OP wasn’t designed to be competitive nor he suggested it should replace conquest, but to be PvP mode for those who could enjoy it more than current one.

the point is, Stronghold was a total failure. especially given how much resources and time they dedicated to it. I would have preferred if they kept cranking out maps like Foefire, temple, and Nilfhel.

mistsim.2748:

the point is, Stronghold was a total failure. especially given how much resources and time they dedicated to it. I would have preferred if they kept cranking out maps like Foefire, temple, and Nilfhel.

I really enjoy Stronghold, for sure more than Conquest. However I believe it still need alot of work and polishing.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Anyway who are you trying to convince with your weak argumens? Us, yourself or arena net? Convincing us is easy, convincing arena net…is not.

For sure not Anet, there were serval threads about bringing RA back or implementing some of its positives to current game mode [CQ] e.g. people wished to stay as winning team together for next match in Ranked if they have to be in same Q with Premades.

Anet obviously always ignored those threads, since ever.

Morwath.9817:

I’ve played most major MMOs mostly for PvP since 1999 or 2000… and I can tell you that RA like TDM is perfect mode for following players:
-> Players who don’t have much time or just dislike wasting time in ques or lost matches that last eternity [matches are fast, there is no MMR so ques should be short]
-> Players who prefer action than capping and rotating around the map [action! no time wasted for rotating, runing around, respawning etc].
-> Players who hate playing against any kind premades.

RA suggested by OP wasn’t designed to be competitive nor he suggested it should replace conquest, but to be PvP mode for those who could enjoy it more than current one.

Think about the average TTK in this game.

Now think about what playing a gamemode where you will have 5 people focus firing will be like.

enough said.

And competitive in my last post means “any game where the participants are playing to win”

mistsim.2748:

the point is, Stronghold was a total failure. especially given how much resources and time they dedicated to it. I would have preferred if they kept cranking out maps like Foefire, temple, and Nilfhel.

I don’t think that’s the point of anything in this thread so far. And I love Stronghold.

I think general gaming community mentality has changed since GW1. Expectations and attitude are different, and a totally random TDM solo queue arena would probably be a point of complaint these days.

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

I’ve played most major MMOs mostly for PvP since 1999 or 2000… and I can tell you that RA like TDM is perfect mode for following players:
-> Players who don’t have much time or just dislike wasting time in ques or lost matches that last eternity [matches are fast, there is no MMR so ques should be short]
-> Players who prefer action than capping and rotating around the map [action! no time wasted for rotating, runing around, respawning etc].
-> Players who hate playing against any kind premades.

RA suggested by OP wasn’t designed to be competitive nor he suggested it should replace conquest, but to be PvP mode for those who could enjoy it more than current one.

Think about the average TTK in this game.

Now think about what playing a gamemode where you will have 5 people focus firing will be like.

enough said.

And competitive in my last post means “any game where the participants are playing to win”

I guess it could force timer.
You know all those Cele Eles and Druids supporting each other ;-)

You know, boring and one sided matches would be fast, while those more balanced and enjoyable could last a while.

Firelysm.4967:

Hi, I’m GW1 player, and I did want, with all my heart to see return on Random-Arena.

For those who don’t know what that is I’ll explain:

• It’s a solo queue with death match style of 5v5
• you get paired with 4 random people
• if all players on one side are dead, that team is defeated and the team that won, will go in next round.
• There is no re-spawn once you are dead.
• There is no reviving once you are fully dead.
• If you win, your team will continue in the next round, Maximum rounds is 25, if you lose, your team is kicked into the lobby.
• Higher you climb higher reward you get.
• If player doesn’t want to continue, you can go out on the end of the round, and that player is replaced with random person.
• You can change your build in Ready position before round starts.
• No time frame[all fights were cca 2-10 min long].
• Example

This was a game mode of true skill, honor, pride, helping each other like a brother or sister to push harder to the top, a joy and meaning of PvP, where many times you felt like a hero for defeating enemy team as last man standing.

We have none of this in Conquest, a wanna-be-eSports-like game mode, enforced way of playing that MOBA brought to us.

Where are death match maps? I’ve expected at least two of them with better design then Courtyard, less clustered.

But all we got was Stronghold and removal of Courtyard, shame to remove the best PvP mode from original Guild Wars.

I think your suggestion is great! Bring back Random Arena’s and the bullet’s you outline would make it fun and reminiscent of GW1. Having said that, you aren’t giving
Conquest the respect it deserves. It sounds like you want 100% of the strategy to be in the play mechanics between the team (healing, range, dps). Point capture by two skilled teams takes all the effort of what you deal with in death match scenario and adds the mechanic of point capture + the secondary map mechanic to the mix. It takes much more skill to balance all of those elements, decide on your team splits, strategize use of secondary mechanics, etc… It can become too busy (e.g. Skyhammer) but on most maps it’s balanced well. Stronghold format has the potential to be run tournaments parallel with Conquest. We just need more maps. Honestly the Random Arenas, death match style PvP while fun is a bit primitive. I think it worked well in GW1 because we had so many skills to pick from (Build Wars) with GW2 we see maybe a dozen great and meta builds being run. There is little strategy in the individual build, focus is action-combat and skill and I think the additional mechanics add to the fun with action combat.

Cogbyrn.7283:

mistsim.2748:

the point is, Stronghold was a total failure. especially given how much resources and time they dedicated to it. I would have preferred if they kept cranking out maps like Foefire, temple, and Nilfhel.

I don’t think that’s the point of anything in this thread so far. And I love Stronghold.

I think general gaming community mentality has changed since GW1. Expectations and attitude are different, and a totally random TDM solo queue arena would probably be a point of complaint these days.

it’s definitely the point. most people don’t enjoy SH. all the serious pvp’ers aren’t interested in it, and are queuing primarily for conquest. in other words, SH will never have a “community” around it.

iterating on conquest and successful pve/pvp maps like Foefire was the right course of action.

Morwath.9817:

I guess it could force timer.
You know all those Cele Eles and Druids supporting each other ;-)

You know, boring and one sided matches would be fast, while those more balanced and enjoyable could last a while.

Balanced matches wouldn’t last long at all. Why? Because in this game the HPS is significantly less than the post-defensives DTPS (damage taken per second). This means that even in fights with near even levels of skill, the fight will draw to a conclusion in a reasonably quick amount of time.

If you pay attention you’d realize that all those MMOs that do no-respawn TDM are nearly one and all trinity games where the two support roles offset the DPS role so that equal skill matches would go on forever with no deaths.

GW2’s classes and combat system simply does not have sufficient sustain to support any type of no-respawn PvP. People already go down rapidly in a 2v1, do you really want to see what getting focus fired by 5 people will be like?

Seriously stop, the kind of match you are asking for would likely have a average combat time of maybe 20 seconds. Unless you’re the first guy on the focus list, then it’ll be like 4 seconds.

Crinn.7864:

Seriously stop, the kind of match you are asking for would likely have a average combat time of maybe 20 seconds. Unless you’re the first guy on the focus list, then it’ll be like 4 seconds.

Wrong, just Zerkers/Marauders wouldn’t be viable ;-)

zinkz.7045:

Firelysm.4967:

A dead player in death match map as i’ve described has a crucial meaning for team.
A dead player in GW2 sPvP has no meaning at all, you respawn soon enough, and has minor effect on outcome.

Yeah normally in deathmatch in an MMO, where the skill cap is considerably lower than say an FPS, a dead player more often than not means round over, which is one of the reasons it is a kittenty mode in MMOs.

Firelysm.4967:

Speaking of map awareness is nothing special. Yet again if you speak about map awareness, say hi to GvG from GW1, yet another game mode that can say, GW2 sPvP is more casual then ever.

Irrelevant, we are talking about death match random arena, not GvG, arena deathmatch is simply the most simplistic lowest skill cap mode there is, now you may like the mode, but that changes nothing, all it is, essentially is a teamfight, which is why most PvP modes in MMOs, MOBAs, etc, try and add things like objectives, some compelxity into the map, etc, because it ups the skill cap, ups the need for communication, the need for map awareness, etc.

Firelysm.4967:

Personal opinion about what you prefer, but like it or not, Death Match has more team fight synergy required then GW2 sPvP.

Death match has simplistic synergy, whatever wins the teamfight, more complex modes require more aspects beyond what is good in a team fight, which is superior.

Firelysm.4967:

Eliminating the weakest to prevail…

Probably one of the most tedious aspects of deathmatch in MMOs is all it really consists of is focusing the easiest to kill class/build, which generally is decided by the game design/balance, as opposed to player skill, which tells you all you need to know about the low skill level, and why MMOs add things like objectives to try and bring up the skill level and increase decision making,

Firelysm.4967:

In death match is a pure skill of individual…

Deathmatch is the lowest skilled, most simplistic mode out there, the only time it works is when the inherent game mechanics take a lot of skill like certain FPS (well lots for a video game, lets be honest video games are low skilled in the grand scheme of things), MMOs are in comparison a joke.

Firelysm.4967:

No offence taken, you prefer MOBA style, I prefer DM, but deathmatch will always be true player vs player….

If I liked MOBAs I’d play MOBAs, PvP in MMOs is genreally nothing like MOBAs, having a capture point or killing the lord on Foefire, does not equate to a MOBA, in MMOs deathmatch is low skilled and is tediously one dimensional, if you prefer that fine, but stop deluding yourself over its “merits”.

If you say so, you clearly want to make Conquest god like, simple because of map rotations, but let me tell you, map rotation is 5% of skill, if we remove that we get pure death match. Now argue as much as you want, we still play deathmatch easy mode on conquest map, it’s a simpler mode of Deathmatch with smaller team fights and occasional 5v5

Nothing wrong with personal opinion, but you cannot bash one mode because you think Conquest is better You did turn around many points as well.

Crinn.7864:

Firelysm.4967:

For those who don’t know what that is I’ll explain:

• It’s a solo queue with death match style of 5v5
• you get paired with 4 random people
• if all players on one side are dead, that team is defeated and the team that won, will go in next round.
• There is no re-spawn once you are dead.
• There is no reviving once you are fully dead.
• If you win, your team will continue in the next round, Maximum rounds is 25, if you lose, your team is kicked into the lobby.
• Higher you climb higher reward you get.
• If player doesn’t want to continue, you can go out on the end of the round, and that player is replaced with random person.
• You can change your build in Ready position before round starts.
• No time frame[all fights were cca 2-10 min long].
• Example

This was a game mode of true skill, honor, pride, helping each other like a brother or sister to push harder to the top, a joy and meaning of PvP, where many times you felt like a hero for defeating enemy team as last man standing.

NONONONO

This is bad, this is cancer.
I play SW:TOR for 4 years right through the period when that game transitioned from 8v8 ranked (which was like conquest) to Arenas (which used the exact rules you outlined above)
This game type is pure and complete cancer. It’s near impossible to balance, it promotes class stacking, it has little to no strategic play and promotes some of the most kitten play I’ve ever experienced. And random team selection makes it even worse.

Since you have random teams, you can’t depend on support. So all strategies and builds that require support or coordination beyond “focus X dude first, then focus Y” is gone. Also because of this, the only viable builds for such a gamemode will be builds that are extremely self-sufficient with high levels of sustain. Or in other words it’ll be bruisers only, and even then only a couple bruiser builds will even be viable.

Since the is no respawn, strategy boils down to having everyone focus fire whichever enemy player is the squishiest (thieves you’re worthless here even with sb#5), once they die you’ve got a +1 situation. This detail means that comebacks in this gamemode are super rare, and most matches will be blowouts.

Never, EVER do this. It’s bad enough in SW:TOR which has full trinity, this game would be destroyed by such a gamemode. With GW2 TTK the average match time would be maybe 30 seconds.

1 how do you promote class stacking when there is random arena.
2 i dont know how bad your other MMO experience that was, but Guild Wars Random Arena is amazing
3 You seam to use that word “cancer” quite frequent.
4

builds that are extremely self-sufficient with high levels of sustain.

Isn’t that what Conquest currently do? You just described GW2 sPvP
5 Thiefs die fast? With new daredevil you think so? And only a bad thief dies first. That’s down to personal skill.

Morwath.9817:

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

I disagree.
I remember game where Abjured was dying like little kittens ;-), yet they won 500-200 or so (it wasn’t Foefire) and it was prefect match to show what about CQ really is and show its weaknesses as gamemode:
-> It’s often worth to die to prevent cap/decap if someone can jump in your place during your downtime (even if you end dead).
-> Because in CQ often rotations are often more important than actual fights.

But going to a gamemode like the one suggested by the OP would become far worse in terms of the effects on quality of play.

And strategic play is a type of skill in itself. Players using a strategy to win a otherwise losing situation is a measure of skill in itself. No-respawn TDM doesn’t have strategic play and really doesn’t involve much personal skill either since matches usually come down to which team has the worst player on it, rather than which team has the best player on it.

Nope. It just causes more balance problems, because even if all professions would have 50% vs each other and skill would decide 1v1 and 2v2 situations and so on then more tanky (who can hold for longer, even few seconds of longer cap/decap than enemies can decide “close enough” match) and more mobile (who can +1 more frequently or move between points) composition is better, which makes even more imbalances.

I don’t think you’ve actually played a mmo with competitive TDM. Yes conquest is certainly flawed but TDM is downright broken.

Any TDM with no respawns, revolves around nuking the kitten out of the other team’s weakest link. Glass builds are garbage. Anything that requires support is garbage. Anything and can’t escape a focus fire is garbage. Anything that requires any amount of setup is garbage.

Don’t believe me?

the only way you could make no-respawn TDM work is if the entire combat system and the classes themselves where designed solely with no-respawn PvP in mind.

I’ve played most major MMOs mostly for PvP since 1999 or 2000… and I can tell you that RA like TDM is perfect mode for following players:
-> Players who don’t have much time or just dislike wasting time in ques or lost matches that last eternity [matches are fast, there is no MMR so ques should be short]
-> Players who prefer action than capping and rotating around the map [action! no time wasted for rotating, runing around, respawning etc].
-> Players who hate playing against any kind premades.

RA suggested by OP wasn’t designed to be competitive nor he suggested it should replace conquest, but to be PvP mode for those who could enjoy it more than current one.

Exactly, thank you.

I really like SH, much more so than conquest (which just seems like a poor imitation of WoW’s Arathi Basin). There are definitely some tweaks that Anet should make but I think this game type has a lot of potential. Anet should focus its effort here imo.

mistsim.2748:

Cogbyrn.7283:

mistsim.2748:

the point is, Stronghold was a total failure. especially given how much resources and time they dedicated to it. I would have preferred if they kept cranking out maps like Foefire, temple, and Nilfhel.

I don’t think that’s the point of anything in this thread so far. And I love Stronghold.

I think general gaming community mentality has changed since GW1. Expectations and attitude are different, and a totally random TDM solo queue arena would probably be a point of complaint these days.

it’s definitely the point. most people don’t enjoy SH. all the serious pvp’ers aren’t interested in it, and are queuing primarily for conquest. in other words, SH will never have a “community” around it.

iterating on conquest and successful pve/pvp maps like Foefire was the right course of action.

A lot of stats with no support. People complain about DH constantly, but funnel into the game mode where a DH’s traps are most effective. I’ve seen DH Guards in SH, and their traps seem to be dodged more often than not. Or one NPC triggers them as it runs down the lane.

Conquest has its benefits as a game type on occasion, but I think GW2 could use more diversity, and in that regard SH was a great step forward. I personally enjoy PvP with mechanics. Deathmatch style arenas are OK and all, but I find them much less interesting in MMOs than in something like Q3A of old. Even fast-paced FPS games were often more about just running into an enemy team and fighting all the time.

Flood a game mode with constant fighting/action, and the fighting/action dulls over time, since it’s all you do. Temper a PvP game with mechanics and the fighting feels intense as player engagements develop naturally, instead of being forced.

That’s my opinion, anyway. Random Arena would be kind of cool and all, but I think it would stale pretty quickly from a build perspective.

as a long time gw1 random arena almost only player, i was actually amazed at launch that they didn’t include their best mode in gw2. this was actually the reason i stopped playing immediately and just came back around 2 months ago.

like the OP and many others, i’d like to see a return of random arena since conquest feels a lot like dominion in league of legends. and it’s neither fast nor fun.

random arena was always refreshing and it was a lot of fun to discover what your team could acomplish – monk or not doesn’t matter.

despite what some people may feel about RA, for me, it never got stale. never. having to cap points, run around like chickens to cheese cap and avoid group fights at all costs is what makes current pvp in gw2 boring & plain bad.

also removing courtyard aka the only true pvp map in the game is a very questionable decision imo. limiting the players ability to choose their prefered mode is also something devs should never be doing. there are checkboxes for garbage mode #1 and #2 aka conquest & stronghold. bring back courtyard & make a few more generic TDM or arenastyle maps and give us a checkbox for that.

the current state of pvp is not sustainable imo.

Cogbyrn.7283:

mistsim.2748:

Cogbyrn.7283:

mistsim.2748:

the point is, Stronghold was a total failure. especially given how much resources and time they dedicated to it. I would have preferred if they kept cranking out maps like Foefire, temple, and Nilfhel.

I don’t think that’s the point of anything in this thread so far. And I love Stronghold.

I think general gaming community mentality has changed since GW1. Expectations and attitude are different, and a totally random TDM solo queue arena would probably be a point of complaint these days.

it’s definitely the point. most people don’t enjoy SH. all the serious pvp’ers aren’t interested in it, and are queuing primarily for conquest. in other words, SH will never have a “community” around it.

iterating on conquest and successful pve/pvp maps like Foefire was the right course of action.

A lot of stats with no support. People complain about DH constantly, but funnel into the game mode where a DH’s traps are most effective. I’ve seen DH Guards in SH, and their traps seem to be dodged more often than not. Or one NPC triggers them as it runs down the lane.

Conquest has its benefits as a game type on occasion, but I think GW2 could use more diversity, and in that regard SH was a great step forward. I personally enjoy PvP with mechanics. Deathmatch style arenas are OK and all, but I find them much less interesting in MMOs than in something like Q3A of old. Even fast-paced FPS games were often more about just running into an enemy team and fighting all the time.

Flood a game mode with constant fighting/action, and the fighting/action dulls over time, since it’s all you do. Temper a PvP game with mechanics and the fighting feels intense as player engagements develop naturally, instead of being forced.

That’s my opinion, anyway. Random Arena would be kind of cool and all, but I think it would stale pretty quickly from a build perspective.

Not sure about that. CSGO is the biggest growing E-sport game at the moment, and it’s been big since always, streaming back then was never a thing. But in certain countries it was streamed on TV. CSGO is a simple way of action, defuse bomb or plant bomb while defending. That’s what people do over and over, and even in competitive play in ranked, it’s the same game mode over and over, and over and over. Why do people still play it? I don’t know, but I play CSGO and it’s fun as ever.

Most of the time you win in CSGO is by kills, not having a bomb exploding or defusing. So, if the game is good – the action in pvp will never get dull. It’s just how Anet is handling conquest pvp atm. Valve and Riot are great with communication.

For better pvp experience overall in esports, they just need to delete cele or nerf celestial like 30% kittened, and does not allow hybrid, such good examples are druid and dd cele ele. I am 100% sure this will make game way much cooler. Especially druid, they can do both dmg and support, and support healing amount is still huge with not cleric but cele. This is way much broken than dd cele ele in terms of they can do super support without cleric but also dps.

Only allow bunker(highly specialized in bunkering a capped point with less support)/support type(buff and healing allies) or DPS type or offensive support type as stated below. Rip hybrid.

Also, nerf all condition type but they have to all AOE for extensive dmgs, making it only good at team fight but not 1v1 stuffs. Condition type should become like offensive supporter that sucks at 1vs1 but good at team fight to aids people who land real dmg.

Crinn.7864:

Morwath.9817:

I disagree.
I remember game where Abjured was dying like little kittens ;-), yet they won 500-200 or so (it wasn’t Foefire) and it was prefect match to show what about CQ really is and show its weaknesses as gamemode:
-> It’s often worth to die to prevent cap/decap if someone can jump in your place during your downtime (even if you end dead).
-> Because in CQ often rotations are often more important than actual fights.

But going to a gamemode like the one suggested by the OP would become far worse in terms of the effects on quality of play.

And strategic play is a type of skill in itself. Players using a strategy to win a otherwise losing situation is a measure of skill in itself. No-respawn TDM doesn’t have strategic play and really doesn’t involve much personal skill either since matches usually come down to which team has the worst player on it, rather than which team has the best player on it.

I dont think that’s fair, picking the correct target to focus fire in TDM, and for the opposing team to anticipate which member of their own team will get chosen and come up ways to interrupt are both examples of skill and decision making. TDM here is not the same as FPS, each class has mechanics to avoid damage, stun / daze opponents. I fail to see your argument that there’s no strategy involved.

Not to mention, if this mode becomes popular, there will be more meta builds for each class, specifically for players that want to compete in this mode. Just because you dont like TDM, it doesnt mean it’s bad for everyone.

Shemie.4286:

Cogbyrn.7283:

mistsim.2748:

Cogbyrn.7283:

mistsim.2748:

the point is, Stronghold was a total failure. especially given how much resources and time they dedicated to it. I would have preferred if they kept cranking out maps like Foefire, temple, and Nilfhel.

I don’t think that’s the point of anything in this thread so far. And I love Stronghold.

I think general gaming community mentality has changed since GW1. Expectations and attitude are different, and a totally random TDM solo queue arena would probably be a point of complaint these days.

it’s definitely the point. most people don’t enjoy SH. all the serious pvp’ers aren’t interested in it, and are queuing primarily for conquest. in other words, SH will never have a “community” around it.

iterating on conquest and successful pve/pvp maps like Foefire was the right course of action.

A lot of stats with no support. People complain about DH constantly, but funnel into the game mode where a DH’s traps are most effective. I’ve seen DH Guards in SH, and their traps seem to be dodged more often than not. Or one NPC triggers them as it runs down the lane.

Conquest has its benefits as a game type on occasion, but I think GW2 could use more diversity, and in that regard SH was a great step forward. I personally enjoy PvP with mechanics. Deathmatch style arenas are OK and all, but I find them much less interesting in MMOs than in something like Q3A of old. Even fast-paced FPS games were often more about just running into an enemy team and fighting all the time.

Flood a game mode with constant fighting/action, and the fighting/action dulls over time, since it’s all you do. Temper a PvP game with mechanics and the fighting feels intense as player engagements develop naturally, instead of being forced.

That’s my opinion, anyway. Random Arena would be kind of cool and all, but I think it would stale pretty quickly from a build perspective.

Not sure about that. CSGO is the biggest growing E-sport game at the moment, and it’s been big since always, streaming back then was never a thing. But in certain countries it was streamed on TV. CSGO is a simple way of action, defuse bomb or plant bomb while defending. That’s what people do over and over, and even in competitive play in ranked, it’s the same game mode over and over, and over and over. Why do people still play it? I don’t know, but I play CSGO and it’s fun as ever.

Most of the time you win in CSGO is by kills, not having a bomb exploding or defusing. So, if the game is good – the action in pvp will never get dull. It’s just how Anet is handling conquest pvp atm. Valve and Riot are great with communication.

If CSGO hasn’t changed formula since CS of old (which I played for 5 years, loved that game), then even CSGO has down-time. After each round, teams re-spawn together, there’s a pause to buy, then they are released again into the map. Conflicts develop based on team/player movements, and watching how a firefight is going to unfold then thinking about what the teams might do the next round sounds like part of the fun. It isn’t like they just run at each other shooting, there’s thought behind which objective is going to be chosen, how it is going to be approached, how it can be best defended, how the CTs might rotate to an objective once the Ts broadcast their move, whether the Ts have a sneaky snake to double back/go slowly towards the off-objective, etc.

There are rotational considerations in Conquest, but often times people are mushed together fighting for most of the game. To me, that makes the fighting less of a peak, and more of a plateau, reducing overall excitement. Even when playing and not just watching, I like a little distraction/build-up to my fighting. In CS, that happened when running towards objectives, wondering which corner the enemy was going to be around, searching for that headshot. In DOTA 2/LoL, it’s the build-up of teamfights as they develop from rotations, smokes, Roshan spawns, etc., knowing that deaths could mean a large swing in the game.

In GW2 Conquest, you run back to points after respawning quickly, so maybe there’s a bit of a “gotta get back in the fight”, but it feels less meaningful, to me.

Shemie.4286:

Not sure about that. CSGO is the biggest growing E-sport game at the moment, and it’s been big since always, streaming back then was never a thing. But in certain countries it was streamed on TV. CSGO is a simple way of action, defuse bomb or plant bomb while defending. That’s what people do over and over, and even in competitive play in ranked, it’s the same game mode over and over, and over and over. Why do people still play it? I don’t know, but I play CSGO and it’s fun as ever.

Most of the time you win in CSGO is by kills, not having a bomb exploding or defusing. So, if the game is good – the action in pvp will never get dull. It’s just how Anet is handling conquest pvp atm. Valve and Riot are great with communication.

CSGO’s success wasn’t because of the speed it was because of what you said “is a simple way of action, defuse bomb or plant bomb while defending.” It’s simple, it’s something that a casual observer can understand and follow.
To be successful as a eSport, a game must be something that a person who isn’t a high level player, or doesn’t play the game at all can watch and still engage in.

Viewers must be able to see the big plays and cheer for them, to yell “GOGOGOGO” when their team starts a big play.
Guild Wars 2 can’t deliver this. Conquest and the telegraph system are so nebulous that only experienced GW2 PvP’ers can even follow what is occurring. You can’t cheer your favorite team on through a play if you can’t even understand when the play happens.

There is a reason that nearly all mainstream sports boil down to “take ball and get it somewhere” because that’s something that anyone, even people that don’t plaay the sport can engage with.

Becoming a sport requires designing around the viewer just as much as the player.

Crinn.7864:

Shemie.4286:

Not sure about that. CSGO is the biggest growing E-sport game at the moment, and it’s been big since always, streaming back then was never a thing. But in certain countries it was streamed on TV. CSGO is a simple way of action, defuse bomb or plant bomb while defending. That’s what people do over and over, and even in competitive play in ranked, it’s the same game mode over and over, and over and over. Why do people still play it? I don’t know, but I play CSGO and it’s fun as ever.

Most of the time you win in CSGO is by kills, not having a bomb exploding or defusing. So, if the game is good – the action in pvp will never get dull. It’s just how Anet is handling conquest pvp atm. Valve and Riot are great with communication.

CSGO’s success wasn’t because of the speed it was because of what you said “is a simple way of action, defuse bomb or plant bomb while defending.” It’s simple, it’s something that a casual observer can understand and follow.
To be successful as a eSport, a game must be something that a person who isn’t a high level player, or doesn’t play the game at all can watch and still engage in.

Viewers must be able to see the big plays and cheer for them, to yell “GOGOGOGO” when their team starts a big play.
Guild Wars 2 can’t deliver this. Conquest and the telegraph system are so nebulous that only experienced GW2 PvP’ers can even follow what is occurring. You can’t cheer your favorite team on through a play if you can’t even understand when the play happens.

There is a reason that nearly all mainstream sports boil down to “take ball and get it somewhere” because that’s something that anyone, even people that don’t plaay the sport can engage with.

Thats another thing I’ve mentioned many times already on those boards: we need casting bars and ability icons (both on cast and on damage) so everyone can follow, like GW1 had.

This way even the most green noob would see that player A used skill X and player B responded to it with skill Y to block/interrupt/evade it and so on… also makes game much simpler to learn for newcomers and community grows easier…

rchu.8945:

I dont think that’s fair, picking the correct target to focus fire in TDM, and for the opposing team to anticipate which member of their own team will get chosen and come up ways to interrupt are both examples of skill and decision making. TDM here is not the same as FPS, each class has mechanics to avoid damage, stun / daze opponents. I fail to see your argument that there’s no strategy involved.

It’s only skill and decision making for the early days of the arena, before the meta settles.

I saw this when TOR debuted it’s arena system in 2.4. The first week was amazing, each match saw different strategies and builds in play. Even the team ranked queue was diverse.
But then the meta and the pecking order was established, and thus diversity and strategy died.

See the problem with saying that choosing a focus requires skill and decision making is that it doesn’t account for player behavior. What will actually occur is that the PvP community will come to a consensus on a “focus list” which is basically all the classes order from squishiest to tankiest. Strategy will simply be selecting the member of the opposing team that’s the highest on the focus list and going from there.

i.e in TOR it works like this, Mandos are always #1 target, if no mandos then focus Sniper, if no snipers then focus DPS PT, if no DPS PTs …… you get the picture.
Here in GW2 it would be something along the lines of “always tunnel thieves first, then….”

Not only is that a cesspool in terms of depth of play, it also means the arenas are going to be nothing but a source of anger and frustration for anyone playing classes that are higher on the focus list, since they will be forever condemned to dying early and quickly. Playing these classes would boil down to “try to live long enough for your team to hopefully kill one of theirs first.”

Not to mention, if this mode becomes popular, there will be more meta builds for each class, specifically for players that want to compete in this mode. Just because you dont like TDM, it doesnt mean it’s bad for everyone.

More meta builds is meaningless when the meta itself is a cesspool. In my experience in past games is that the people that enjoy arenas are exclusively players that main high self-sufficiency classes (the only class that can really function in a pug TDM) the rest of the community typically ends up hating on TDM.

no-respawn TDM was really designed for coordinated environments in games that have trinity. no-respawn TDM can have some amazing strategy (like hardswitches, which I love), but only in the realm of premades and voice-chat, where you can assure team support and can both execute and deflect more complex strategies. no-respawn TDM is also largely dependent on the combat system being set up so that evenly matched teams will stalemate, rather than mutually obliterate.

Morwath.9817:

Thats another thing I’ve mentioned many times already on those boards: we need casting bars and ability icons (both on cast and on damage) so everyone can follow, like GW1 had.

casting bars and ability icons don’t really help view ability. Have you ever watched another person play some mmo you’re not familiar with? Sure you can see what buttons they are pressing, but that doesn’t in the slightest help you understand what is actually occurring.

Crinn.7864:

casting bars and ability icons don’t really help view ability. Have you ever watched another person play some mmo you’re not familiar with? Sure you can see what buttons they are pressing, but that doesn’t in the slightest help you understand what is actually occurring.

Casting bars doesn’t help to understand whats going on for people who never played game and know nothing about, for same reason as someone who never played LoL won’t have any idea how Lee Sin went between walls on ward without using Flash.

On the otherside, same casting bars will help to easy follow action for people who played GW2 only a bit, but doesn’t know and understand all those animations, especially if we take into account that all tournaments are streamed without any kind of standarized models…

Trayzer.7268:

as a long time gw1 random arena almost only player, i was actually amazed at launch that they didn’t include their best mode in gw2. this was actually the reason i stopped playing immediately and just came back around 2 months ago.

like the OP and many others, i’d like to see a return of random arena since conquest feels a lot like dominion in league of legends. and it’s neither fast nor fun.

random arena was always refreshing and it was a lot of fun to discover what your team could acomplish – monk or not doesn’t matter.

despite what some people may feel about RA, for me, it never got stale. never. having to cap points, run around like chickens to cheese cap and avoid group fights at all costs is what makes current pvp in gw2 boring & plain bad.

also removing courtyard aka the only true pvp map in the game is a very questionable decision imo. limiting the players ability to choose their prefered mode is also something devs should never be doing. there are checkboxes for garbage mode #1 and #2 aka conquest & stronghold. bring back courtyard & make a few more generic TDM or arenastyle maps and give us a checkbox for that.

the current state of pvp is not sustainable imo.

Exactly.
My last 4 years of GW1 was exclusively pvp. I did start as PvE player and because i did like my character a lot, i’ve decided to keep her and bring her in PvP. When i’ve seen how awesome PvP in GW1 was, i was instantly in love, and never ever left PvP for 4 YEARS until of GW2 release.

But what does convince player from GW1, to instantly stop playing GW2 pvp? Many people would say GW1 combat system was different maybe thats why. No, i love GW2 combat, but I don’t like Conquest neither Stronghold. I play WvW and i duel there, i play GvG, but then again very STRONG question, How can a GvG have a stronger community that no one promotes? While PvP which is constantly promoted by anet has a minor success? [again GvG is mode from GW1 wich we both remember].

Yet i’m surprised that we GW2 GvG players play for free, no reward, no loot, no achievement nothing, we arrange our own battles, only for honor and joy. This proves, that people love this game a lot more then people think and other people will never know how much this game modes mean to me, you and those that were able to play in that time era. We love the combat, we love developers, what’s the problem then? Well, if you know what is anet capable and how awesome those modes were, you’ll never accept Conquest over your game mode, which is totally enforced from MOBA world of eSport success. I still think, GW2 would have greater success if they would stick to their own unique PvP modes then adapting to Conquest.

Without GW1 PvP, guild wars 2 would never be what it is today.

zinkz.7045:

Firelysm.4967:

This was a game mode of true skill…

Not really, death match is one of the lowest skilled PvP modes out there, there is nothing you have to do in death match, that you don’t have to do in pretty much every other PvP mode, other PvP modes then have aspects on top of teamfights, that raise the skill cap like map awareness, more decision making, , more communication, etc.

That aside the whole progression as you win is pretty good though, though 25 rounds seems a bit excessive.

Sounds like someone can’t handle team fights. Matches lasted like a minute so 25 rounds wasn’t that excessive. Not like Courtyard in this game where no one dies ‘till it’s half over.

I am not sure how often I would play it but this game needs way more instanced PvP modes than we have and there is little reason not to give it a try.

Schurge.5194:

zinkz.7045:

Firelysm.4967:

This was a game mode of true skill…

Not really, death match is one of the lowest skilled PvP modes out there, there is nothing you have to do in death match, that you don’t have to do in pretty much every other PvP mode, other PvP modes then have aspects on top of teamfights, that raise the skill cap like map awareness, more decision making, , more communication, etc.

That aside the whole progression as you win is pretty good though, though 25 rounds seems a bit excessive.

Sounds like someone can’t handle team fights. Matches lasted like a minute so 25 rounds wasn’t that excessive. Not like Courtyard in this game where no one dies ‘till it’s half over.

I am not sure how often I would play it but this game needs way more instanced PvP modes than we have and there is little reason not to give it a try.

agreed, this games pvp needs more depth and options. It’s funny watching this company shove Esports down peoples throat when they hardly have a scene because they want that marketing $$$.

Would love to see some simple good gw1 style death matches or something close to it. After 3 years all we got was Stronghold.

There is a reason this game is not very competitive at the “high level” and lacks a population. I mean 3 years and how many competitive teams are there in each region? Not that many, definitely not enough to consider this game an Esport imo.

More options and depth would really help improve the pvp population.