Guild Wars 2

Pretty much self explained question.

Now i’m sure this debate has happend many times before, but i forgot why it should or shouldnt.

My own feelings is it should NOT. I beleive (much like gears of war) when your down your only alive to force enemies to move in closer to finish you off and to give you a second chance if a teammate is near by and wants to put himself at risk to save you.

I dont know what purpose rally holds in spvp, in pve it makes sense, but in spvp i dont know why its needed.

I think they should flat out remove downed state personally. Or at least remove all offensive downed abilities. It’s nothing but frustrating.

As for rally though, I think that it shouldn’t exist personally. It’s too much of a tide changer for such a small thing. You can have a 5v5, and 3 on each team are down. Well, because one team was maybe 1 second faster suddenly it’s now a 5v2. In other words, there would be too much disparity between even matched teams.

My own feelings also are that it shouldn’t. I mean if both sides have downed people whoevers team gets the first kill basically win. And at this point classes that can’t move basically become a big and easy target. If your ever in one of those situations you better hope you don’t have an engie on your side.

It should.
Conditions should stick with downed targets though.
It’s pointless trying to finish off a player when all your damage comes from conditions, which were wiped when you downed a player.
Rallying isn’t hard to predict either. I like rallying just fine. Downed state conditions however. Fix-it Felix.

I’m more or less ok with rally…

What I’m not fine with is people doing more dps in downed state than when they’re alive. (Thief, Warrior, power Necro, Mesmer easily stacking 5+ comfusion permamently, not to mention the Rogue)

Also the diffirences between downed states are complete BS. Stomping Warrior/Engi/Necro is a joke, just need to dodge the CC. For Rangers and Guards you need stability. Thieves, Mesmers and Eles you gotta chase around.

How downed state should work imo is:
- All classes should have same skills when downed (like AoE CC+Heal+Suicide, that’s it)
- Removal of attack when downed. If you lost the fight while being alive, you should not be able to win it by throwing nuclear-powered rocks while lying on the ground.
- The only way to get up – being healed by yourself or ally.

Rally shouldn’t exist anywhere and down state abilities should be about supporting team mates instead of damage if it has to stay in the game

I’d rather have to option to die and start the respawn timer right away although there are plenty of times where I down an opponent and keep him down as long as possible by doing enough damage so that they can’t get up thereby keeping them out of the game as long as possible. Overall, I’d rather have down state removed.

Maybe remove downstate and implement closer respawn points where a player can respawn in the middle of the map if they control that point. It might add a new dynamic to the current maps. I’m just throwing ideas out based on wow bgs. GvG would be the closest thing to AV in wow and I would definitely play that with a lord at the end of the map that has to be killed for either the win or for points.

huh, a lot better responces than i expected. Learned a lot.

sounds to me the problem with rally is generally felt by most players, but many players dont like the downed state entirely or just dont like you being able to attack while downed (keeping more in line with gears of war’s downed state where your just a half dead guy waiting to be rescued untill you bleed out)

Maybe a compromise solution.

Remove Rally from Spvp
Downed state exists but all you can do is A) try to heal yourself, B ) end your own life immidiatly. (this would prevent you wasting your time or having that scenerio where someone is purposly preventing you from healing yourself but making sure you die as slowly as possible to keep you out of the game longer)

This probably would be better for game health and make everyone happy.

As has been pointed out across the board some peoples downed state attacks are simply better than others and some people are incredibly dangerous downed while others are a free kill (or free rally as it stands now).

Best to just put everyone on an even playing field and remove rally and not allow any attacks while downed. (or everyone has the same attack that is very weak and not effected by traits or stats)

That solution would be fine IMO. Something like a mesmer stacking 9 confusion on you + the phantasm criting for 5k is just ridiculous. The person is literally bleeding out on the floor dying and they can kill someone from 50% health? Makes no sense.

And then you have something like an engineer or necromancer which is basically helpless. Ridiculous imbalances.

Yes the imbalances are insane.

Downstate should be the easiest part to balance.

Your utilities and Traits are (majoritively) countered by the state. Class balances doesnt have to be interested or complicated in downstate. Its just a simple few abilities that need to balance.

Necro can do decent damage in downstate if they trait for it. Engi rely on rng for anything useful and crap damage always.

Engi then has a single target gap closer to assist an enemy in getting the stomp off on them (technically single target interupt) . Guardian have an aoe knockback.

Thief and Mes have a stealth ability (yeah wtf) , in their downstate, yet Necro have a poison field………… because yes , avoiding stomp is definately equivalent to a poison field.

I’d moan about Vengeance, but warriors have it tough enough as it is.

Its just ridiculous.

I honestly have no idea if it’s needed or not. Downed state is needed for sure otherwise the game would devolve into a “who bursts who first” meta but rallying I’m not sure. Hopefully there will be an option in the custom servers that allows us to turn rallying off so we can see for ourselves.

This is one of the reasons why custom servers will have a big impact on the PvP population. People will find out for themselves the game modes/features that they enjoy the most if there is enough customization implemented, and if one particular mode/feature gets very very popular it may convince ANet to implement it into their official game mode.

I guess i am kind of necro’ing this post,but here goes:

The Downed State has got to go from PvP.I am really keeping my distance from PvP because of it.Now,GW2 was supposed to be a game where your skill matters.

For example,as a Ranger,i can go against 2 different players(doesn’t really matter what classes they are in the long run) and i automatically know that i will lose.When i defeat 1,he should be dead,so i can focus on the other one.However,the one i “killed” will be downed,allowing him to continue dealing damg to me and/or heal himself back to full hp and join his ally against me.Or his ally can just dodge near him,and revive him.There is no way you can outdamg that heal,thus you will once again be 1vs2.

Now one might say that you could always go there once he gets downed and finish him.All classes have an interrupt skill(or seem to have,some seem to have a “i will get out of here” skill),thus not allowing me to continue my finisher,but by that time,his ally will be on me like a rabid dog.I lose again.

I am not sure what kind of “pro” skill i need to win against such odds,the game is basically punishing me for going against more than a single person.

I don’t know about the Downed State in WvW though,because i am not an avid WvW player,maybe it works better there.I believe it is fine in PvE though,allowing you to have a second chance against monsters(especially bosses).

On a side-note;How about some unranked PvP where it doesn’t have any impact on your stats(win/lose/highest score etc) where you can practice your builds or just play PvP if you are not interested in your stats.

Thank you for listening to my little rant

^ The downed state is an extension of health.
To be frank no one is supposed to beat two people in reality. 2v1 is inherently a disadvantage, winning it is primarily about the other two making significant mistakes, build wars or being vastly inferior.
Downed state interrupts can be stopped via stability. Mesmer warp can be timed to kill upon reapparance. Thieves you dodge/warp to. Eles you dps outright or double tap. In terms of the other person? You kill them while they’re rezzing or you take that opportunity to get out of a bad situation.

I think people are missing the fact that if you are in a downed state, you haven’t lost yet. Getting downed doesn’t mean you lost, it means that you’ve been put in a bad position by the enemy team. You’ve not lost til your dead.

@Nightside: Rangers have stability AND quickness, of which quickness is on a relatively short cooldown. There is no reason you should be unable to stomp a downed player in a 1v2.

Further, yea, you should lose a 1v2 against equally skilled opponents. That’s the same in any decently balanced game.

As for the balance of the downed state: some of them need love (Engineers cough) but by and large they are fairly equal. It is (usually) easy to identify the real mesmer to stomp and (usually) easy to force a thief to tele and then to hop back on him and quickstomp.

I dislike the downed state and rally and is the only reason why I don’t play sPVP.

I can tolerate it in WvW to a certain extent and have no issue with it in PVE.

Atlanis.6597:

Further, yea, you should lose a 1v2 against equally skilled opponents. That’s the same in any decently balanced game.

I disagree.

A highly skilled player should be able to mop the floor with 3 or 4 bad players or 2 equally skilled players.

Unfortunately this is not possible due to auto aim and the downed state.

Down state is the only thing preventing this game from being a bad game for baddies(Hit team focus target=win).

Rally is entirely different issue. It makes for big plays and decisions, but I could see how it can frustrating by turning an otherwise even fight into a landslide.

It should just be “throw rock” and “heal” imo, just those 2 abilites and NOTHING else. Downstate takes the fun away from playing well and rewards those who play bad.

ensoriki.5789:

To be frank no one is supposed to beat two people in reality.

Since when?

+By the time i’ve downed one of them,and seriously injured the other,i will have all my skills on a cooldown,so i can’t exactly deal with that downed state.I can’t just spam stability out of nowhere.And its not like i can just wait before i use my stability/etc skills ,after all,i am against 2 players.I need all my skills to deliver a massive blow.

ensoriki.5789

To be frank no one is supposed to beat two people in reality. 2v1 is inherently a disadvantage, winning it is primarily about the other two making significant mistakes, build wars or being vastly inferior.

Explain that to Bruce Lee if he was alive. This guy would mop the floor with 12 people each holding knives.

Calae.1738:

Atlanis.6597:

Further, yea, you should lose a 1v2 against equally skilled opponents. That’s the same in any decently balanced game.

I disagree.

A highly skilled player should be able to mop the floor with 3 or 4 bad players or 2 equally skilled players.

Unfortunately this is not possible due to auto aim and the downed state.

Yes, a highly skilled player should be able to. A highly skilled player is able to. I’ve seen mesmers and warriors do just that. If a highly skilled player is against two other players who are of roughly the same skill level as him, he should lose. If he doesnt, then he’s above their skill level by quite a bit (or build wars).

Calae.1738:

ensoriki.5789

To be frank no one is supposed to beat two people in reality. 2v1 is inherently a disadvantage, winning it is primarily about the other two making significant mistakes, build wars or being vastly inferior.

Explain that to Bruce Lee if he was alive. This guy would mop the floor with 12 people each holding knives.

Those 12 people with knives were obviously vastly inferior to Bruce Lee. I mean, hell, he’s kittening Bruce Lee!

Downed state is the reason why I don’t sPVP in this game, and why I can’t really take s/tPVP seriously as a competitive format. DS is great in PVE but it shouldn’t exist in competitive PVP if you expect people to take GW2 PVP seriously.

The rally mechanic is one of the worst aspects of DS, so yes, it should be removed. The whole impact of DS on PVP build and outcomes should be greatly reduced as easy, consequence-free rezzing is one of the main reasons why bunkers exist.

Instead of DS, people should just have more HP across the board. That way, players could play the actual, full 10-skill combat game instead of some silly 4-skill mini-game.

IMO, Downed State is one of the key underlying reasons why sPVP has fallen flat.

I noticed a lot of people have turned my old thread into an anti-down state anti-rally.

I think downed state is fine under one rule. It should function like gears of war. It allows a teammate to use this moment to ressurect you and plays can be built around that. I think thats fine. But the downed state abilities all being completely different makes the entire thing incredibly unbalanced.

Rally is just frusterating for spvp, its an easy AE ressurect for not always requiring risk. It makes sense for pve. But spvp there needs to be a risk reward…while i channel healing someone, neither of us are fighting, its a sacrifice to bring someone into the game like it is on gears of war. (first game i ever played that used this system)

Heres an example of where rally is frusterating.
team fight 3on2…during the fight we down both people and are about to finish them off (but they buy time with gaurdian knockback etc). ..while cd’s are down a theif insta kills one of us out of no where and because he uses haste + invis instantly stomps the downed teammate. Because of this, he not only successfully killed someone he instantly ressurected 2 others and turned the fight into 3on2 the other way around, if the guys we downed were bunker, they have oppurtunities now to fully heal or if they’re evasive slippery types they can disengage a second to heal and come back in.

Another example of where it is just plain dumb. One time i left a rifle turret in an oddball spot at another point while running to help another point on the other side of the map. I have a fight in which i’m downed and going to die…apparently though my rifle turret shot somoene that one of my teammates was finishing…so i rallied and turned around and killed the player who downed me. As funny and rewarding it was for me, i felt this should never happen….(immidiatly saw in all chat “omg, nerf engineers instant self ressurect”)

So rally has a lot of innate annoyances, and does not bring enough PROS as it does CONS to spvp. Downed state i’m actually fine with, its the abilities while downed that are creating more problems than good.

IMO, i’d be fine if they kept downed state but removed all offensive abilities. All you’d have in sPvP is bandage.

Things like mesmer damage, or ele vapor form, or warrior vengeance are all just stupid and unfun mechanics.

I think the principle of downed state is fine, I just think the execution needs a little work. The professions need better balance, as other people have stated, and some classes certainly have stronger downed states than others.

But everyone here seems to think that downed players do insane damage, and I haven’t seen that in sPvP. Downed is pretty much downed, and after you sit through the initial interrupt or the disappearing/movement skill, finishing an opponent is simple. If a downed player manages to outmaneuver you—an alive and attacking opponent—then props to them for surviving.

If you are outnumbered in PvP, fundamentally the odds aren’t any worse for you than they were initially. And, at times, you can still stomp people in an outnumbered situation, or even down the teammate that stopped to res them.

Rusc.4978:

I think the principle of downed state is fine, I just think the execution needs a little work. The professions need better balance, as other people have stated, and some classes certainly have stronger downed states than others.

But everyone here seems to think that downed players do insane damage, and I haven’t seen that in sPvP. Downed is pretty much downed, and after you sit through the initial interrupt or the disappearing/movement skill, finishing an opponent is simple. If a downed player manages to outmaneuver you—an alive and attacking opponent—then props to them for surviving.

If you are outnumbered in PvP, fundamentally the odds aren’t any worse for you than they were initially. And, at times, you can still stomp people in an outnumbered situation, or even down the teammate that stopped to res them.

It’s highly unlikely that you could stomp someone in a situation where you are outnumbered. Even a thief who stealths is essentially stunned for the animation period and will get nailed hard.

Never mind the fact that 1 person can resurrect a downed player in less than 10 seconds but; that downed player can DPS and sometimes even fear, knockdown, immobilize while downed.

This game is asking that a player in a 1vs2 situation essentially run away for backup or troll around structures using line of sight.

What do you think is more exciting to watch? Someone owning 2 people or someone running away from 2 people?

Core issues no one can escape from that rally poses.

1. Adds another form of instant ressurect to the game that is noted by even the devs as a problem (referring to ressurect signets).
2. Allows for ressurecting an ally at no risk to the player. (they can continue on fighting the enemy instead of having to stun themselves and channel a heal leaving them open.)
3. Creates the unpleasant situations that are discouraging and frusterating that have been made clear through out this thread.

Ressurect is fine. Being downed is fine. But it must come at a price to bring that player up and should not be something that just “happens” without any significant cost.

As for downed state abilities.

1. They are not balanced even remotely across professions.
2. Downed states support certain statistics on a character more than others (examp more healing will make necromancers attack heal better as will power increase its damage, condition has little effect……engineer benefits more from power and condition duration etc).

I’m all for bandage being allowed while downed, maybe even increasing in effect when out of combat…or perhaps like gears of war pvp you just slowly bleed and if you are not aided you just die off (imo this works better and has been proven to work). But downed state abilities should be swept under the rug in SPVP. I dont think them missing would confuse players coming over from PVE as its not learning a new ability even….its like racials/fooditems you just learn that you cant use them.

Some time ago i went up against a fellow Ranger,and i was quite surprised that he was very good.I still managed to down him,but just barely.Now,technically i won,however,since he was downed,he could continue attacking me and thus downed me as well.By that time,his Cooldowns had ended and he could use his pet to revive him while i still had a 3s or so so Cooldown.As you can imagine,i lost.

Now,i know i might sound a little bitter here,but i do not understand how this game rewards skill at all.Its basically a luck game.Thus rendering PvP pointless.

Calae.1738:

Rusc.4978:

I think the principle of downed state is fine, I just think the execution needs a little work. The professions need better balance, as other people have stated, and some classes certainly have stronger downed states than others.

But everyone here seems to think that downed players do insane damage, and I haven’t seen that in sPvP. Downed is pretty much downed, and after you sit through the initial interrupt or the disappearing/movement skill, finishing an opponent is simple. If a downed player manages to outmaneuver you—an alive and attacking opponent—then props to them for surviving.

If you are outnumbered in PvP, fundamentally the odds aren’t any worse for you than they were initially. And, at times, you can still stomp people in an outnumbered situation, or even down the teammate that stopped to res them.

It’s highly unlikely that you could stomp someone in a situation where you are outnumbered. Even a thief who stealths is essentially stunned for the animation period and will get nailed hard.

Never mind the fact that 1 person can resurrect a downed player in less than 10 seconds but; that downed player can DPS and sometimes even fear, knockdown, immobilize while downed.

This game is asking that a player in a 1vs2 situation essentially run away for backup or troll around structures using line of sight.

What do you think is more exciting to watch? Someone owning 2 people or someone running away from 2 people?

Whether it’s unlikely or not is not the point, because that can can vary widely based on the situation. But I’ve done many stomps in situations where I was outnumbered—especially in stealth—and I’ve also seen them performed. Not to mention that I’ve been stomped by outnumbered opponents. Not everyone pays attention to their downed teammates.

And like I stated before, if you get CC’d by the downed skills, you just wait it out or stunbreak and then resume the finish.

Dealing with downed opponents requires a situational strategy, to be sure, but it’s certainly not impossible.

Edit: Also, if you’re having trouble completing a finish, you could just attack them to death. It accomplishes the same end.

Rusc.4978:

Calae.1738:

Rusc.4978:

I think the principle of downed state is fine, I just think the execution needs a little work. The professions need better balance, as other people have stated, and some classes certainly have stronger downed states than others.

But everyone here seems to think that downed players do insane damage, and I haven’t seen that in sPvP. Downed is pretty much downed, and after you sit through the initial interrupt or the disappearing/movement skill, finishing an opponent is simple. If a downed player manages to outmaneuver you—an alive and attacking opponent—then props to them for surviving.

If you are outnumbered in PvP, fundamentally the odds aren’t any worse for you than they were initially. And, at times, you can still stomp people in an outnumbered situation, or even down the teammate that stopped to res them.

It’s highly unlikely that you could stomp someone in a situation where you are outnumbered. Even a thief who stealths is essentially stunned for the animation period and will get nailed hard.

Never mind the fact that 1 person can resurrect a downed player in less than 10 seconds but; that downed player can DPS and sometimes even fear, knockdown, immobilize while downed.

This game is asking that a player in a 1vs2 situation essentially run away for backup or troll around structures using line of sight.

What do you think is more exciting to watch? Someone owning 2 people or someone running away from 2 people?

Whether it’s unlikely or not is not the point, because that can can vary widely based on the situation. But I’ve done many stomps in situations where I was outnumbered—especially in stealth—and I’ve also seen them performed. Not to mention that I’ve been stomped by outnumbered opponents. Not everyone pays attention to their downed teammates.

And like I stated before, if you get CC’d by the downed skills, you just wait it out or stunbreak and then resume the finish.

Dealing with downed opponents requires a situational strategy, to be sure, but it’s certainly not impossible.

Edit: Also, if you’re having trouble completing a finish, you could just attack them to death. It accomplishes the same end.

downed state makes it harder to successfully fight 2on1 (or any outnumbered fight). This isnt even argueable. All i see is a lot of talk bouncing around the initial subject which is such. “Not everyone pays attention to their downed teammates.” what bad players do has no grounds in a discussion about balance. I could say its possible to win 4on1 because sometimes the enemys afk or never use their abilities….doesnt really prove anything.

Also
He never said it was IMPOSSIBLE to finish someone 1v2, it is simply highly unlikely given circumstances. Not everyone runs haste, not everyone can invis, not everyone has stability. And non of those garantee you will stomp the person(you can counter them all), or that those abilities will even be off cd (you may have used them to down the first guy). In a perfect ideal world maybe you have everything you need at that time, but most likely you wont. and “attack them to death” to finish someone off isnt usually going to work if the other guy is sitting there healing him.

Zinwrath.2049:

Rusc.4978:

Calae.1738:

Rusc.4978:

I think the principle of downed state is fine, I just think the execution needs a little work. The professions need better balance, as other people have stated, and some classes certainly have stronger downed states than others.

But everyone here seems to think that downed players do insane damage, and I haven’t seen that in sPvP. Downed is pretty much downed, and after you sit through the initial interrupt or the disappearing/movement skill, finishing an opponent is simple. If a downed player manages to outmaneuver you—an alive and attacking opponent—then props to them for surviving.

If you are outnumbered in PvP, fundamentally the odds aren’t any worse for you than they were initially. And, at times, you can still stomp people in an outnumbered situation, or even down the teammate that stopped to res them.

It’s highly unlikely that you could stomp someone in a situation where you are outnumbered. Even a thief who stealths is essentially stunned for the animation period and will get nailed hard.

Never mind the fact that 1 person can resurrect a downed player in less than 10 seconds but; that downed player can DPS and sometimes even fear, knockdown, immobilize while downed.

This game is asking that a player in a 1vs2 situation essentially run away for backup or troll around structures using line of sight.

What do you think is more exciting to watch? Someone owning 2 people or someone running away from 2 people?

Whether it’s unlikely or not is not the point, because that can can vary widely based on the situation. But I’ve done many stomps in situations where I was outnumbered—especially in stealth—and I’ve also seen them performed. Not to mention that I’ve been stomped by outnumbered opponents. Not everyone pays attention to their downed teammates.

And like I stated before, if you get CC’d by the downed skills, you just wait it out or stunbreak and then resume the finish.

Dealing with downed opponents requires a situational strategy, to be sure, but it’s certainly not impossible.

Edit: Also, if you’re having trouble completing a finish, you could just attack them to death. It accomplishes the same end.

downed state makes it harder to successfully fight 2on1 (or any outnumbered fight). This isnt even argueable. All i see is a lot of talk bouncing around the initial subject which is such. “Not everyone pays attention to their downed teammates.” what bad players do has no grounds in a discussion about balance. I could say its possible to win 4on1 because sometimes the enemys afk or never use their abilities….doesnt really prove anything.

Also
He never said it was IMPOSSIBLE to finish someone 1v2, it is simply highly unlikely given circumstances. Not everyone runs haste, not everyone can invis, not everyone has stability. And non of those garantee you will stomp the person(you can counter them all), or that those abilities will even be off cd (you may have used them to down the first guy). In a perfect ideal world maybe you have everything you need at that time, but most likely you wont. and “attack them to death” to finish someone off isnt usually going to work if the other guy is sitting there healing him.

I’m not allowed to use my own phrasing? I also mentioned that “whether it’s unlikely or not is not the point”—and it’s not. Being able to stealth and use Haste are helpful, but I’ve seen stomps without those. I typically make stomps without those, because I don’t like blowing my utilities to kill someone that’s already downed.

And if the other guy starts to heal him, you have three options: kill the downed player, if you can stomp in time or do enough damage; down the player trying to resurrect them; or, if you don’t think you can win in the situation, bail. Staying in a stale fight isn’t helping your team, and contrary to what some of the posts in this thread seem to be saying, PvP isn’t a matter of who can defeat who in a 1vX. It’s a game of strategy. If you’re not at a strategic advantage in a battle, you probably won’t win, downed state or no downed state, and if you’re dead or downed at all then you’re not helping your team.

Downed state and rallying are a part of the game in PvE, and there’s no reason that they wouldn’t exist in PvP. The downed state gives you a slim chance for redemption, and rallying is just another facet of gameplay that you have to keep in mind when you weigh the odds of a particular engagement.

I understand it in PvE,it kind of makes sense.

However,so what you are saying is that every time i see more than 1 person coming at me,i should pull back,thus giving the enemy a point to capture?Even though,under normal circumstances i could win against both of them?

Also,the “finish them” always takes longer than it takes for the other to revive him,same with damg unless you are playing some uber damg type.(Maybe with warriors/mesmers/eles etc this works,but not with Rangers.

This has nothing to do with strategy.

Edit:Actually,the game allows you to spawn quickly anyways,why should you be given the chance to be “redeemed” .If you lost,you lost.

Nightside.4715:

I understand it in PvE,it kind of makes sense.

However,so what you are saying is that every time i see more than 1 person coming at me,i should pull back,thus giving the enemy a point to capture?Even though,under normal circumstances i could win against both of them?

Actually, that’s pretty much the opposite of what I’ve been saying. If you can win against both of them, go for it. But if you can’t, then what good would it do to engage and lose, versus just coming back and capping the point once they’ve left?

Nightside.4715:

Also,the “finish them” always takes longer than it takes for the other to revive him,same with damg unless you are playing some uber damg type.(Maybe with warriors/mesmers/eles etc this works,but not with Rangers.

This has nothing to do with strategy.

Sometimes, but not always. And I’ve seen Rangers absolutely destroy downed players, as well as the players trying to res them. It has everything to do with strategy, and skill.

Nightside.4715:

Edit:Actually,the game allows you to spawn quickly anyways,why should you be given the chance to be “redeemed” .If you lost,you lost.

Why shouldn’t you? If you lost, you’d be dead. I agree that class skills are unbalanced, but the downed state (in principle) gives everyone a fair shake. There’s always the chance that you can outsmart other players, or that your teammates will save you.

Downed state rewards bad play.

When your health reaches zero, you’re invulnerable for a few seconds until you’re downed. While downed you can deal damage to a target. If that target goes down while you’re downed, you instantly revive.

Some classes have interrupts while downed. Try to stomp a Thief or a Mesmer and record how much time it’ll take. Some classes buy themselves so much time to be revived that being downed isn’t even a liability to the team as long as they’ve accomplished what they were supposed to do.

If I bring your health down to zero by blowing all my cooldowns; I still have to walk up to you in melee range and stun myself for 3 seconds to finish you off. Not only will my stomp be interrupted by the downed player but, I can also be interrupted by another player. Those interrupts can be carefully used to avoid overlap and remove my ability to stomp altogether.

Not only is the downed state not fun to watch but, for me, it’s not fun play. I would rather be dead. Why? Because if I knew that I would die once my health reached zero; I would play a lot more carefully and strategically. Knowing that I could revive myself and my friends can revive me creates a moral hazard. I’m actually willing to take risks knowing that even with bad play I can succeed.

In my opinion; this is precisely the reason why it’ll never become an esport and why competitive players will never take it seriously.

Should Rally exist in spvp?

No, it should not.

This part of the game is already filled with zergs. People know that traveling in packs increases the probability of taking a point successfully, just like most games. I am not saying that traveling in packs is bad, strength in numbers right?
What I am trying to say is, in this game every class has the ability to become a bunker spec. Some classes are better fitted than others. Which means if one team is traveling around in 5 v 5, with 3-4 people, and two of those people are a guardian in a bunker and an elementalist in a bunker spec, it already takes every available person on the other team to down one of those specs in a timely manner. But, it doesn’t end there.
With mesmers, thieves, and elementalists you not only have to down them first, but then you have to deal with them moving after the fact. And it only takes one person on their team to rez them back to life. While it takes preplanned tactics of the attacking team to make sure someone has quickness and stability handy to make sure to stomp said person before their teammates are able to heal them back up.

The math does not add up to me. We have classes that take 2-3 people to get down before reinforces show up, 2-3 people to plan beforehand who will not use what abilities to make sure to get the stomp, only to have one person able to bring the downed player back to fighting…that’s some kittening kitten right there, no?

Either ANET needs to remove down state so that when your HP runs out you are dead. OR, remove every ability in the down state except for bandage. So that if you actually are able to down that elementalist, or whatever, that took you 2-3 or more people to get down, you do not have to deal with all that effort being wasted due to one person being able to rally their teammate after said class was able to move to a position that was conveniently close to them.

It’s in no way fun for me(and it seems most people) to put in the effort of killing someone, only to have that person down me while they are in down state, and because of the class they play they are either able to move far enough away for me not to be able to attack them and heal up, or for their pet to rally them, or for some reinforcements to show up rally their teammate and make my effort completely futile.

(I also think it’s kittened when I or the person I am fighting gets rallied after someone you happened to have tagged or hit in passing gets stomped at another place on the map. I could be completely wrong about this, but what is the range on rally? The entire map?
I mean if someone is healing to rally you it’s like 2 feet of distance, but if you happened to tag someone during battle, run far enough away to not be hit by any ranged attacks, you can still be rallied if a person on the other side gets stomped more than 1200 range away? What’s up with that?)

Close this thread, please. This is ridiculous.

Rallying can be very exciting in PvP, and it actually allows people to have great comebacks.
The problem is that people in downed deal way too much dmg, sometimes even more than when they were alive. Tone the dmg down and it wont be so frustrating.
Another thing i’d like to see implemented in PvP is that you should only rally once, the next time you would go into defeated mode instantly.
This would be very easy to implement, since the system is already there, but you have to down FIVE times before this happens and it never does in PvP.
This would allow for comebacks via the rallying system, but this would also make it easier for people to win 1vX fights.
I have no clue why the system does not function like this in PvP, it is beyond me.

Calae.1738:

ensoriki.5789

To be frank no one is supposed to beat two people in reality. 2v1 is inherently a disadvantage, winning it is primarily about the other two making significant mistakes, build wars or being vastly inferior.

Explain that to Bruce Lee if he was alive. This guy would mop the floor with 12 people each holding knives.

Ahahahahahahahah!!! I loled so hard!! Hilarious! I bet they hold their knives with their feet!! Plz go out and see the lights. There is a big ball of fire up there in the sky. Its beautiful. More real life, less Enter the Dragon!! OMG!! Ahahahah! Im gonna get another infraction, oh well… its my millionth already, who cares?

This thread is about Rallying, though and I don’t think it should be removed from Spvp. It happens only on rare occasions and there is no way to abuse it.

In general, I personally think downed state is an important part of Spvp. It adds depth and interesting dynamics to the conquest game.

However, I do think it needs rebalancing and a better tutorial for new players, because it is not intuitive whether to ress or stomp in certain situations.
Warrior’s temporary selfress, for example, is not fully understood by most new players.
Mainly, the cooldowns are not optimal. Ele’s downed state is broken and the Engineer’s downed state is too clunky, imo.

It also plays into the absence of Healers, because it gives an additional reason to play a support with healing stats in a team composition.
Then again, swiftness resses and the ress signets need to be looked at.

Calae.1738:

Downed state rewards bad play.

When your health reaches zero, you’re invulnerable for a few seconds until you’re downed. While downed you can deal damage to a target. If that target goes down while you’re downed, you instantly revive.

No, only a death will revive downed players.

Calae.1738:

Some classes have interrupts while downed. Try to stomp a Thief or a Mesmer and record how much time it’ll take. Some classes buy themselves so much time to be revived that being downed isn’t even a liability to the team as long as they’ve accomplished what they were supposed to do.

Rangers, Guardians, Warriors, Engineers, and Necromancers all have interrupts. Thieves, Mesmers, and Eles do not, because they have some form of movement still and/or stealth. But being downed is still a liability to the team, regardless of what you’re doing. How much can you accomplish while you’re downed, exactly, that you couldn’t do easier or better while alive?

Calae.1738:

If I bring your health down to zero by blowing all my cooldowns; I still have to walk up to you in melee range and stun myself for 3 seconds to finish you off. Not only will my stomp be interrupted by the downed player but, I can also be interrupted by another player. Those interrupts can be carefully used to avoid overlap and remove my ability to stomp altogether.

What? It’s not a stun, it’s a cast time, and the stomp is essentially an insta-kill attack. It’s a choice that people make in order to speed up a kill, but of course you can interrupt it. Stomping would be ridiculous if you couldn’t.

Calae.1738:

Not only is the downed state not fun to watch but, for me, it’s not fun play. I would rather be dead. Why? Because if I knew that I would die once my health reached zero; I would play a lot more carefully and strategically. Knowing that I could revive myself and my friends can revive me creates a moral hazard. I’m actually willing to take risks knowing that even with bad play I can succeed.

You should already be playing carefully and strategically. Going down all the time and just expecting your teammates to save you is poor team behavior and a worse game mentality. Maybe, instead of suggesting the removal of a game facet—one that most people seem to be able to deal with—you should reevaluate your habits.

Calae.1738:

In my opinion; this is precisely the reason why it’ll never become an esport and why competitive players will never take it seriously.

If you’re going to pick on sPvP and talk about how bad it is, there are other, more pertinent problems you can choose. The downed state is a small issue compared to other things in the game right now, which is why I find the devolvement of this thread to be rather ridiculous.

Downed state/rallying is great for the game. There are many ways for the downed player to not get stomped (interupts, stealths, teleports), and then there’s many ways for the stomping player to get the stomp off clean (stability, blocks, invulnerability, teleports, double stomping), or they can just do poison and damage.

Then there’s ways for the downed player/his team to beat the stomp (boon removal, cc, aoe cc, stealth, res signets).

It’s good counter play.

Assuming the most likely case that custom servers will have the option to turn rally off, i imagine it will be popular.

Its one of those things that is a port over from the pve side of the game where it makes clearer sense.

I garantee if they had never put it in the game to start with and i or someone suggested it on the forums, even the people defending it would have said “hell no thats ridiculous”. It is not a fun nor does it add dynamic strategy to the game. It just allows players to take no risk or change what they’re doing to ressurect someone. They can continue fighting ignoring the downed player. And the devs already recognized theres too much ressurecting as it is in a game with so many slipper escapes and bunkers.

I have not heard a single reasoning that says otherwise.

This thread is not about downed state abilities. They are not balanced either, but you can make another thread to debate whether you think they are balanced or should exist.

Necromancer isn’t helpless in downed state. They have fear and that’s one of the hardest things to get rid of. Its just as effective as elementalist going invulnerable for 3 seconds and moving away.

No it shouldn’t. You down someone he should be dead and not trying to find a downed body porting everywhere

People seem to confuse downed state with being dead. It isn’t the case, however.

The point is that everyone can handle a certain amount of beating, until they keel over and only have a small handful of methods to fend off an attacker in desperation. Someone in 1 on 1 who is downed is most likely to lose, if the opposing player uses his/her brain a little, but the cool aspect of it is that if you use your surroundings to your advantage, you might even be lucky enough to survive.

If people would die immediately upon reaching downed state, it would leave some classes at a huge advantage, mainly thieves.

However there are an inbalance in a few downed states with skill damage, but nothing Anet can’t fix along the way and we as players can work around. If trying to stomp a mesmer with 10% health, be ready for a phantasm trying to backstab you (dodge), or heal up before the stomp. You should by now know all the different professions downed state and what to expect.

The downed state is awesome, and elevates the game from being as simple as other mmo’s. The feature makes strategic placement much more valuable, which is great. It also boosts the teamplay aspect of the game GREATLY. Without it, you will see a million burst D/D thieves in the game I bet.

The downed state is an awesome idea and serves to further strategic play, which is good. If you only like to mindlessly butcher other people in the simplest sense, then perhaps this game isn’t the best choice for you.

uberkingkong.8041:

Necromancer isn’t helpless in downed state. They have fear and that’s one of the hardest things to get rid of. Its just as effective as elementalist going invulnerable for 3 seconds and moving away.

The three seconds you are invulnerable means that you also lose 3 seconds of health.

If you use Vapor Form when on low health, you will die when popping out of it anyway.

Necro fear on bridges and rooftops can be great fun.

To be honest, I think they should make all downed states the same in SPvP. This would break away from what they have in WvW and PvE but it will at least ensure that the movement based professions don’t win oout most of the time.

I personally still want profession specific finishers. And I know the developers could go crazy with that too.

Why do all professions need to be dull and similar? That is so uninventive. An engi surely would have a bomb lying around that would trigger and blow people away. Or a ranger with its wound licking pet.

What is next. All need the same base hp, armor, skills and weapons available?

A bit of flavour is good. If someone who has the ability to move (mesmer, warrior, thief and ele) is making it hard on you, then lure them to a spot you know they can’t easily escape from.

The downed state is an awesome idea and serves to further strategic play, which is good and creates deeper gameplay and teamwork. If you only like to mindlessly butcher other people in the simplest sense, then perhaps this game isn’t the best choice for you.

Agree with Malcastus

Malcastus.6240:

If you only like to mindlessly butcher other people in the simplest sense, then perhaps this game isn’t the best choice for you.

Why is it that every time someone complains about something “This isn’t the game for you”?