Guild Wars 2

Shouldn’t Thief destealth if it attacks me even while I’m invulnerable?

I’ve had random arrows fly out of mid air, hit me, and nothing happens cause I was invulnerable. So no consequence for the thief for attacking, he can just keep sitting in stealth til my invulnerable runs out and then backstab me.
I’ve had a stealth thief just run after me and spam dagger autoattack while keeping stealth, just cause I’m invulnerable and there’s nothing I can do about it.

Is it working as intended, is thief supposed to counter classes that do single target damage and can’t do formidable AoE? If that’s the case it’s a pretty unfun mechanical way to do balance, but what ever.

I’m not here to say that it is unbalanced, I genuinely don’t know. I just want discussion whether it is or not, cause it seems to me that it’s not working like it should.

Yes, nevermind invuln, but should lose stealth if an attack is evaded, blocked or missed as well. Same goes for Mesmer phantasm casting while in stealth (saying that so it doesn’t seem unfair).

Imo any class should lose stealth as soon as they use any skill offensive skill, whether it hits or not. I’m okay with things like heals or preparations like venoms not removing stealth.

If you block or evades a backstab, there is no reason the thief should keep its stealth.
If a mesmer casts a phantasm in stealth, he should be revealed also.

Still a believer in stealth ending when using an attack skill, even if there are no enemies or objects in range. Stealth gained via finishes should have their durations increased to compensate.

a thief that attacks a blocking, dodging , invul target out of stealth makes a mistake and shouldn´t get plenty other chances to engage first. They should even get punished with a longer revealed debuff.

Bad enough that I lose stealth because some random botting AI engi decides to randomly dodge roll while sitting under a turret now you want to nerf thief even more?

Florgknight.1589:

Bad enough that I lose stealth because some random botting AI engi decides to randomly dodge roll while sitting under a turret now you want to nerf thief even more?

Do you realize how silly it is to complain about “random” dodge rolls when you’ve actively forced your opponent to do that by denying them all visual information about your movement and attacks?

“They just sorta guessed that maybe now was a good time to dodge, since they couldn’t actually, you know, see me at all.”

NO WAI! SO UNFAIR!

i usually save my obsidian flesh or signet of stone for when the thief is revealed.

Stealth Classes should destealth if they attack a blocking dodging or invuln target. Not blind though, that doesn’t make sense as they miss the attack, so it would never contact anything.

this again…. there was a thread about this like a week ago that went on for a couple pages]

(and there have been many many threads about this for a very long time)

Curunen.8729:

Yes, nevermind invuln, but should lose stealth if an attack is evaded, blocked or missed as well. Same goes for Mesmer phantasm casting while in stealth (saying that so it doesn’t seem unfair).

sure, if Anet fix or optimize Mesmer’s GM trait power block that’s completely invulnerable to theives (and future Revenants), then I can agree to fix this “unfair” issue…

Blocks at very least should reveal. Evades probably should to.

Cryers shouldn’t play.
Stealth ends up in Revealed if you deal damage.
If you haven’t dealt damage to invulnerable/dodging/blocking/whatsoever target why should stealth fade out? And, if it will, should be Revealed put on thief?
If you answer yes for second question pls die as fast as possible.

Few things…

I am inherently for this due to the lack of counter play against stealth. Having the garantee to either do damage or have the full duration is a bit strong, yes it’s inherently a nerf but was a poor design choice to begin with and altho I sympathize with a glass build taking a hit like this it’s really not a case where thief loses its survivability, just counter play to it’s offense… And really will make little diffrence for well played thieves who play not predictably.

The other thing is… No I don’t see phants and clones revealing Mesmers. Not only is it unreliable for AI to break your stealth but the moderate access to stealth would just make it unviable. However if such a thing was implemented, ranger pet and engie turrets would have to reveal their respective classes, as well as AI spawned thieves for thief classes… And this affects any current or future runes that could possibly proc stealth.

That being said, if a mesmer hits a blocking/dogging/invuln target directly they should be properly revealed as well.

The last thing I want to point out and has been pointed out on these topics before is that other games with fair PvP usually has the exact mechanic we are discussing. And works out fine.

A change like this would also affect the mesmer vs thief matchup and might make them viable for the slot by not just being food

Use your cooldowns differently then, why use a 3s block or inv right away when the thief just stealthed? if i did this i would never be able to beat a skilled thief on my ranger.

rchu.8945:

Curunen.8729:

Yes, nevermind invuln, but should lose stealth if an attack is evaded, blocked or missed as well. Same goes for Mesmer phantasm casting while in stealth (saying that so it doesn’t seem unfair).

sure, if Anet fix or optimize Mesmer’s GM trait power block that’s completely invulnerable to theives (and future Revenants), then I can agree to fix this “unfair” issue…

It effects revenants a lot. Most of Revenant abilities actually have cooldowns. It’s tied to most attacks thieves have not having cooldowns, not the resource type (if that’s what you’re thinking?). Revenants have someutilities with absolutely no cooldown, and it might be frustrating there, but its be and large not the same as weapon attacks that can’t be affected. Their heals have long cast times (not instant like withdraw) and a majority of damage can be cooldown-extended. The difference is that they might be able to play a bit more defensively freely because the utilities don’t have cooldowns, but its not the same as thief’s immunity by a long shot.

(Save maybe spamming Banish Enchantment)

Daishi.6027:

Few things…

I am inherently for this due to the lack of counter play against stealth. Having the garantee to either do damage or have the full duration is a bit strong, yes it’s inherently a nerf but was a poor design choice to begin with and altho I sympathize with a glass build taking a hit like this it’s really not a case where thief loses its survivability, just counter play to it’s offense… And really will make little diffrence for well played thieves who play not predictably.

The other thing is… No I don’t see phants and clones revealing Mesmers. Not only is it unreliable for AI to break your stealth but the moderate access to stealth would just make it unviable. However if such a thing was implemented, ranger pet and engie turrets would have to reveal their respective classes, as well as AI spawned thieves for thief classes… And this affects any current or future runes that could possibly proc stealth.

That being said, if a mesmer hits a blocking/dogging/invuln target directly they should be properly revealed as well.

The last thing I want to point out and has been pointed out on these topics before is that other games with fair PvP usually has the exact mechanic we are discussing. And works out fine.

A change like this would also affect the mesmer vs thief matchup and might make them viable for the slot by not just being food

You do realize that it takes more than half of your initiative to go into stealth and stealth utilities have a large base cooldown right? In a fight losing a backstab to a dodge. If I lose all my damage after black powdering into heartseekering I would have to either use the rest of it to back away or fight someone at full health with 2/3 initiative. The number of evades and blocks most pvp builds have is huge. Losing stealth while not being able to use my main damage combo and more than half my initiative just ruins any stealth based build in competitive play which is already plagued by low risk high reward bunker builds.

rchu.8945:

Curunen.8729:

Yes, nevermind invuln, but should lose stealth if an attack is evaded, blocked or missed as well. Same goes for Mesmer phantasm casting while in stealth (saying that so it doesn’t seem unfair).

sure, if Anet fix or optimize Mesmer’s GM trait power block that’s completely invulnerable to theives (and future Revenants), then I can agree to fix this “unfair” issue…

Hey, I’m a mesmer main – I was just trying to preempt any whining.

Florgknight.1589:

Daishi.6027:

Few things…

I am inherently for this due to the lack of counter play against stealth. Having the garantee to either do damage or have the full duration is a bit strong, yes it’s inherently a nerf but was a poor design choice to begin with and altho I sympathize with a glass build taking a hit like this it’s really not a case where thief loses its survivability, just counter play to it’s offense… And really will make little diffrence for well played thieves who play not predictably.

The other thing is… No I don’t see phants and clones revealing Mesmers. Not only is it unreliable for AI to break your stealth but the moderate access to stealth would just make it unviable. However if such a thing was implemented, ranger pet and engie turrets would have to reveal their respective classes, as well as AI spawned thieves for thief classes… And this affects any current or future runes that could possibly proc stealth.

That being said, if a mesmer hits a blocking/dogging/invuln target directly they should be properly revealed as well.

The last thing I want to point out and has been pointed out on these topics before is that other games with fair PvP usually has the exact mechanic we are discussing. And works out fine.

A change like this would also affect the mesmer vs thief matchup and might make them viable for the slot by not just being food

You do realize that it takes more than half of your initiative to go into stealth and stealth utilities have a large base cooldown right? In a fight losing a backstab to a dodge. If I lose all my damage after black powdering into heartseekering I would have to either use the rest of it to back away or fight someone at full health with 2/3 initiative. The number of evades and blocks most pvp builds have is huge. Losing stealth while not being able to use my main damage combo and more than half my initiative just ruins any stealth based build in competitive play which is already plagued by low risk high reward bunker builds.

The low risk bunkers and tanky DPS are a problem in themselves and need to be toned down regardless.

But the thing is a whiffed attack SHOULD force a back stab build into playing defensive.

And in short bursts initiative is a problem yes, but at it’s rather frequent refresh rate it’s not long before you can attempt an attack again.

Yes there are a lot of doges but this just raised the skill cap, because if it’s not a gaurd, s/d thief, or s/d ranger, there’s still the standard 2 doges + one defensive c/d most builds run (on a weapon set that provides sometimes depending). Also if you bait out 2 doges whiff the attack on the third escape and retaliate with a proper amount of ini: on point 1v1 you can still outplay wear out force and bait those c/ds

Daishi.6027:

Few things…

I am inherently for this due to the lack of counter play against stealth.

Maybe for a trash-level player like yourself it seems as if there is no counter-play to stealth. But D/P stealth is highly telegraphed and easily interruptable and CnD stealth is reasonably dodge-able and melee range so you get guaranteed DPS on the Thief (also almost never used because random dodge/blind/block essentially kills you). You would know this if you spent a few hours playing Thief in order to gain knowledge to beat them instead of just crying incessantly like an infant.

The last thing I want to point out and has been pointed out on these topics before is that other games with fair PvP usually has the exact mechanic we are discussing. And works out fine.

I’ve never played a game that had a stealth mechanic like Thief stealth. What game are you talking about?

A change like this would also affect the mesmer vs thief matchup and might make them viable for the slot by not just being food

The reason you’re less viable than a Thief:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow

Edit below, bonus response:

Daishi.6027:

And in short bursts initiative is a problem yes, but at it’s rather frequent refresh rate it’s not long before you can attempt an attack again.

Yes there are a lot of doges but this just raised the skill cap, because if it’s not a gaurd, s/d thief, or s/d ranger, there’s still the standard 2 doges + one defensive c/d most builds run (on a weapon set that provides sometimes depending). Also if you bait out 2 doges whiff the attack on the third escape and retaliate with a proper amount of ini: on point 1v1 you can still outplay wear out force and bait those c/ds

It takes a D/P Thief 8.18 – 9.0 seconds to recoup the initiative he used to stealth. Assuming he uses no weapon skills for any reason (i.e. fights with nothing but auto attack and the almighty backstab (36% less damage than eviscerate)). It takes 10 seconds to recoup 50% endurance. It takes 10 seconds to recoup 100% endurance if you have vigor. This isn’t counting if you have any class-specific endurance regen or energy sigils on weapons.

So basically, in your world, the Thief needs to spend 4 seconds in revealed, running for his life, using zero initiative to stay alive or fight back in order to gain a 1-1.8 second advantage on his opponent’s next dodge roll.

Uninstall.

Lol morbid still salty about getting spawn camped by me? How did that dishonor taste?

If I’m trash and should uninstall I wonder what you should do instead of feeding my team?

But my arguments are for players better than you, whom have no trouble escaping and arn’t as predictable. But that’s clear if you think infiltrator arrow is the reason why theif is more viable then mes.

You are right however the math doesn’t add up just the doges however it is still enough for force and bait defensive c/ds that have a longer duration, and this STILL does not discount the fact that there is no telegraph to the burst that follows… Even IF you withdraw and come back you still have an advantage being able to burst with no telegraph forcing your opponent to guess and anticipate.

But dearp I killed supcutie with a thief clearly he’s terrible and should uninstall too right? That’s why so many of our Mesmers are rolling thief to be viable lol. Surely this is balanced. Lol

Couldn’t the same type of situation apply for thief as well if you choose to nerf it’s stealth yet again? You think thief should destealth when it attacks, even if it doesn’t proc, but why can anything have a continued channel skill on thief once it’s stealthed (s/f ele autos for example)?

If you nerf, you must buff.

Daishi.6027:

Lol morbid still salty about getting spawn camped by me? How did that dishonor taste?

If I’m trash and should uninstall I wonder what you should do instead of feeding my team?

Yeah, nice try dude. I have no idea who you are – if we actual have met in-game the only person that’s salty is you, because you know my user name by heart, apparently.

Sorry you’re so incredibly bad and wrong.

Thief shouldn’t be revealed, but backstab should cost initiative. That way the thief can try again, but is still punished a little for attacking into a dodge/block/invuln/blind.

“But that’s our auto attack”…ok, then give a stealth AA and move backstab to f2

Ultimately if this change was implemented along with some changes to the current easy mode carry from bunkers and bruisers thief wouldn’t suffer as much as people make out and defend. They’d be strong enough to still dominate glass but makes the inherit guessing game nature of play have much more depth than what we currently have.

In the spirit of making more things viable and taking down apex preditors and wanting things to be fair for EVERYONE in the long run this is a viable option atleast for proper testing (God I wish we had public test servers) and if buffs are needed after that’s fine too.

morbidillusion.2759:

Daishi.6027:

Lol morbid still salty about getting spawn camped by me? How did that dishonor taste?

If I’m trash and should uninstall I wonder what you should do instead of feeding my team?

Yeah, nice try dude. I have no idea who you are – if we actual have met in-game the only person that’s salty is you, because you know my user name by heart, apparently.

Sorry you’re so incredibly bad and wrong.

First off if you have no idea who I am (which is likely since I don’t use my account name for my PvP toons) then you have no idea of my skill level, and your just shooting in the dark calling me bad, when I have already rekt you. So at the VERY LEAST if I am terrable I’m still better than you.
And as to how do I recognize your account name? Whenever I block people who spam me in rage I typically set a nickname and give a short blurb on why they were blocked. (Which I did when you came in guns blazing with indignation to call someone you don’t know bad) I guess your not salty unless your lying. Incase you are I’ll unblock you before I head out if you want to try to lick off some of that salt. lol

tl/dr: backstab already has too many requirements and is not worth it in many cases; making it even more punishing will leave the spell obsolete… removing the spell won’t change anything as it is not what kills you most of the time

So let me understand it.
For backstab to even do measy 4k dmg following requirements need to be fullfilled:
- stealth
- hit from the back (because facestab is worse dmgwise than AA)
- actually crit which requires 6 pts inc rit basically sacrificing a lot of surivival
- actually hit target in melee range
- thief actually need not die to all aoe, random attacks and what not while getting in position.

Not to mention that even if you successfully do land backstab (or after your suggestion not even execute it) it puts 4 sec reveleaed on thief thus leaving them extremely vulnerable as they don’t have blocks, big heals, invul etc.

Now let’s look closer at requirements:

stealth – usually archived by either dumping in a lot of intitiative or blowing relative long CDs thus causing thief to sacrifice survival and/or potential dmg… i would also like to mention that stealth doesn’t last forever, in most cases thief has very short window to land backstab or stealth falls off… many invul/block etc. spells last as long if not longer than base stealth duration.

- hit from the back is actually harder to archive as it may sound as 1) targets are usually moving in pvp 2) this game really does suck at registering weither or not you hit someone from the back 3) hitting from the back also requires thief to actually go in melee range thus putting themself in extreme danger of being nuked before they even can land any attack.

- crit % requirements: as said, requires investment either from traits and/or amulet; usually both thus denying thief even more survival leaving them no choice but running glass cannon… keep in mind that as stated above backstab requires thief to go in mid of fire, so to say, while being absolute glass.

- actually land an attack: now this one is also pretty tricky considering amount of blocks (instant), invul (instant), blinds (instant/automatical) in game… not to mention random dodges.

All of that is for measy 4k backstab (crit) which is most cases is even lower due to facestab and perma protection on current meta builds.
Yes, it may hit sometimes, when all stars line up, for 8k or so in pvp on zerker but is rather rare and in 90% of the cases it is not even worth all the risk and requirements it demands. By the time you actually manage to sucessfully execute backstab you probably would have done double of dmg by spamming auto attack – yes, this is how sad backstab is actually atm.

Now considering all that, you suggest that backstab should reveal thief right away no matter weither they landed backstab or not so thief should be punished even further for even trying to execute it.

If this (rather absurd) idea really would get implemented i think following things would need to change as well:
- no attack can follow or hit thief while they are in stealth (that includes aoe)
- stealth skills are not interruptable
- pets stop following/attacking thief after he entered stealth and don’t follow/attack him unless pet owner executed attack on thief
- attacks from stealth don’t trigger passive procs like from nightmare runes or trait/spells like counter attack from ranger or blind from turret engi
- backstab doesn’t require to hit target from the back anymore
- spells like block/invul/protection/aoe blind now have a cast time

just to make it “fair”.

P.S. i personally can’t believe that you suggest thief suppose to predict instant spells like invul/block etc.

How about any missed attack from Stealth reduces the remain duration by 1sec, this means small Stealths won’t have much negative effect (they usually run out after 1 attack anyway) but thieves spamming with massive Stealths from SR are punished a bit for their desperate attmepts to give away their position.

Here guys, justs re-read this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Suggestion-Revealed-when-blocked-missed/first

Since it’s already been talked about 8 days ago.

Stop bringing up backstab, it has no relevance in this conversation. This is for all skills in stealth. sb auto is one good example.. ranger stealth auto is another.

Quadox.7834:

Stop bringing up backstab, it has no relevance in this conversation. This is for all skills in stealth. sb auto is one good example.. ranger stealth auto is another.

Backstab has no relevance in a thread about Thieves attacking in stealth…

Is this real life?

morbidillusion.2759:

Quadox.7834:

Stop bringing up backstab, it has no relevance in this conversation. This is for all skills in stealth. sb auto is one good example.. ranger stealth auto is another.

Backstab has no relevance in a thread about Thieves attacking in stealth…

Is this real life?

It is april fools…

Quadox.7834:

Stop bringing up backstab, it has no relevance in this conversation. This is for all skills in stealth. sb auto is one good example.. ranger stealth auto is another.

you sersiously complaing about sb auto from stealth? really? oh man
this gotta be 1st april joke

Just block, I think. The stealthed player hit something, so they should destealth. With evade, blind, and invuln, it just feels like the hit never reaches in the first place.