Guild Wars 2

I think we all have those frustrating matches where the score is 500/0 and you being on the 0 team. However, what is even more frustrating is when a person on the losing team gets ALL Top Stats. That person tried their best while everyone else slacked off. Here is my proposal.

If a player gets a top stat and they win, they receive more rating than other players (taking in current rating effects as well). However, if a player gets top stats on a losing team, that player will lose LESS rating than players with less top stats (assuming all players in one team have the same rating as that factors rating loss/gain).

What do you think? Should top stats affect rating loss/gain? What if by gaining all top stats in a losing team the player loses no points at all?

Though there should be a way to reward players for playing well. I think the easiest way to do it is to reduce how many points are lost based on how close the scores were. But, I’m sure there are flaws to this solution as well. It just sucks when you lose a bunch of points even if you lost with a score of 499-500.

Zintrothen.1056:

Though there should be a way to reward players for playing well. I think the easiest way to do it is to reduce how many points are lost based on how close the scores were. But, I’m sure there are flaws to this solution as well. It just sucks when you lose a bunch of points even if you lost with a score of 499-500.

I would prefer that actually. Less points lost the closer the final score is. However, in order to avoid opposing teams from colluding to allow eachother to have close scores, the point gain for the winning team should also be higher (counterbalanced by mmr difference between teams) when the score difference is higher. That a losing team will try to get their score as close as possible to the last minute but the winning team will be motivated to prevent that.

would you consider expanding top stats and stats in general?, it can be quite rewarding and make even a bad loss less painful and enjoyable (monitor your own performance against your other fights, experiment with builds etc)

- Least deaths
- Top boons applied
- Top Boons removed

- Break down of condy dmg and direct dmg totals

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

Abelisk.4527:

What do you think? Should top stats affect rating loss/gain? What if by gaining all top stats in a losing team the player loses no points at all?

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

It’s entirely possible to quantify a player’s contribution towards the win condition. The current stat system does not do that however. Plus such a system would be beyond the understanding of a lot of players, which would leave said players feeling cheated since they would not understand the results.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

Abelisk.4527:

What do you think? Should top stats affect rating loss/gain? What if by gaining all top stats in a losing team the player loses no points at all?

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

Event though it should not count towards winning a game it should count somehow to league points, even when losing.

The only issue is that sometimes there are classes that “don’t do much”, like a decapping thief who is making his/her team win the fight “without being noticed”, just by decapping, and that player won’t get top stats but contributed the most to the team with these actions.

So, sometimes top stats could contribute a lot to individual goals, but not as a group and most people would be left out since not everyone can be “1st place” in a race.

make it count towards pip gainage, I’d like that 20g to come quicker

Stoneheart.6547:

snipples

this could possibly be accounted for with certain categories.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

snipples

what about if those top stats were directly tied to winning the game? I’m thinking about 3 categories: points decapped, points capped, and time spent on a contested point. I guess you could combine decapped with capped and make it a ratio. so for example 3 decap / 1 cap would beat 2/1 (maybe capped count double? so its really 3/2 beats 2/2). idk just a thought.

It would open way to many exploits, but partially could be implemented to reduce the loss for people who work overtime for their hopeless team.
Gameplay can’t be that easily quantified with numbers, so if this ever gets implemented make sure it’s extremely limited and has minimum impact.

martin.1653:

snipples

if you can think of any exploits to what I proposed I would like to hear them.

Stand The Wall.6987:

martin.1653:

snipples

if you can think of any exploits to what I proposed I would like to hear them.

It promotes zerging and multicapping nodes. It’s also not representative of what wins a match because what wins a match is determined by how much value you get out of each cap not how many caps you have or how many people you have standing on caps.

You can win a match with as little as 1 cap.

The way a system would work is that it looks at how long a node is decapped and capped and rewards contribution points to the players responsible for capped/decapped it for as long as the node is decapped/controlled.

So if a node is decapped for 10 ticks then the guy that decapped it geets 10 contribution points. If it is fulled capped for 10 ticks then it grants 20 contribution, 10 for the points that the enemy didn’t get, and 10 for the points that your team got.

Emdrix.6124:

if anything top stats should be removed and instead lower rating losss on closer games to force people to try hard till the match ends.

The problem with this is you would also have to reduce point gain for winning close games as otherwise you’d end up with rating inflation because you always be losing less points that you gain.

And before you say it, no reducing point gain for winning blowouts is not a good idea, because it would mean that exceptionally good players would progress slower than mediocre players since the mediocre players win by lower margins.

Crinn.7864:

snipples

good point about zerging and multicapping, but isn’t this already a problem in lower tiers? if the rating gain from certain top stats was minimal I doubt it would affect much.

isn’t winning with 1 cap impossible or at least a statistical anomaly? when I say cap I mean if its either controlled or neutral.

don’t know where you got the tic idea but that’s not how I imagine it working. in my version one simply gets a point for decap/cap. for the other one the person with the highest time on a contested point wins. these could be rewarded per match or per team idk which makes more sense.

Stand The Wall.6987:

good point about zerging and multicapping, but isn’t this already a problem in lower tiers? if the rating gain from certain top stats was minimal I doubt it would affect much.

But you don’t want to encourage that behavior. Besides there are better ways to figure contribution that are actually accurate to what wins the match.

isn’t winning with 1 cap impossible or at least a statistical anomaly? when I say cap I mean if its either controlled or neutral.

If you cap 1 point and keep 1 other point neutral the entire match you can in fact win with just that 1 cap. This actually happened back during s1 chronobunker meta.

ouch I don’t remember that, sounds painful. I definitely wouldn’t want to encourage that, and what I proposed wouldn’t I’m pretty sure.

Stand The Wall.6987:

like I said though if the rating gain was minimal I don't think everyone in bronze would suddenly ball up.

It doesn’t matter the rate it would still do it.

Also issue isn’t so much figuring contribution it’s integrating it with glicko2 without compromising glicko.
Having arbitrary modifiers to rating gain completely destroys glicko’s ability to function since the algorithm assumes that it isn’t be mucked with.

That said it may be possible to modify glicko to do so. Glicko functions similar to microsoft’s trueskill algorithm so it may be possible to solve that problem the same way the trueskill algorithm does. I’ve had some interesting discussions with a math nerd in my guild on doing just that.

ouch I don’t remember that, sounds painful. I definitely wouldn’t want to encourage that, and what I proposed wouldn’t I’m pretty sure.

You misunderstand the point I was making. Your system primarily promotes getting as many caps as possible. I was pointing out that winning is unrelated to the number of caps made, but rather how long your caps are held vs how many caps the enemy holds.

ah, I see now lol. welp. thanks for the breakdown.

The only thing top stat should count towards is more pips for rewards. That is it. If you tie rating to top stat not only are you going to have people trying to push for top stat rather than making the right decisions to win the game, you’ll also be leaving it out as a exploit for people to try and utilize. It’s even proven, giving NA a inch on gaming the system or cheaping it out, they’ll do it. Look at how they game’d the decay system and leaderboards, and p2w matches.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

Abelisk.4527:

What do you think? Should top stats affect rating loss/gain? What if by gaining all top stats in a losing team the player loses no points at all?

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

Shouldn’t the top stats you selected at least some what correlate with a players contribution towards winning a game?…. if not, maybe the top stats should be reworked…. I understand the frustration of losing a game 500-10 and coming out with EVERY top stat (not even shared) and still losing a bunch of rating. At that point there is nothing that could have been done other then to reroll the mmr dice. Not saying this happens a lot, but it is a point that could be made.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

Abelisk.4527:

What do you think? Should top stats affect rating loss/gain? What if by gaining all top stats in a losing team the player loses no points at all?

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

impressive.

im totally against using Top Stats to gauge contribution. I agree with the Dev on this one.

I prefer the final score idea. Close scores should reduce the rating loss/gain

I totally agree on top stats giving more pips.

But sometimes it’s hard not beaing rewarded for what a person did in a match. Example: Yesterday I had a match (Eternal Coliseum) in which two of my teammates dc-ed after maybe a minute of the match – both thiefs, one of them even came back for like 10 seconds to dc again. Before thy dc-ed we were in the lead (yeah, I know not that much of a lead after one minute but still lead). And the rest of the match was us 3 vs 5. I played ranger and I got top stats for kills (4 of them, yay) but necro on my team got 3, maybe 4, top stas (didnt’ really check because I just wanted to get out of the match). And if it wasn’t for him we would lost 500 to 30, but this way we lost 500 to about 250, and the necro should be rewarded for keeping us from losing by a big gap. The fact that opposing team had 2 guardians speaks for itself (they were actually good). So yeah, top stas should award more pips, and should prorbably be reworked becuse of players like that necro who did everything they could to try to turn the impossible situation around.

And on the other hand people like those two thiefs should be punished, but I guess dishonor is all we have now for that behaviour. I played against one of them in a match after and he dc-ed again halfway trough match. Maybe they have bad internet connection and that’s something they can’t directly control but if that’s not the case they manipulated the match and deserve every minute of dishonor they got.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Top stats already give pips. Unless people want MORE pips?

They provide +1, which is really small comp. It should be +1 per stat gained.

But since I play thief and we often don’t get top stats due to our role, stats should be expanded. Instead of offense: split into cap and decap offense (that type of stuff).

But yes, more reward for more effort, everyone wins.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Top stats already give pips. Unless people want MORE pips?

MORE is always good.

pips do taste good.

I’m almost to the point where I’d be perfectly fine with top stats being nixed altogether. I’m so tired of running into those people who seem to be of the opinion that they are somehow so much more awesome because they got such and such top stat and someone else didn’t.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

People already do this.

If someone defends all match they will get top defense. But if you play the whole map getting 20%-30% in offense, defense, damage, kills, healing, revives and 10% deaths you often end up with no awards. There should be a top all round player award.

Crinn.7864:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Top stats already give pips. Unless people want MORE pips?

MORE is always good.

pips do taste good.

ye. its akin to the crack epidemic. good job guys.
ps :P

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

Abelisk.4527:

What do you think? Should top stats affect rating loss/gain? What if by gaining all top stats in a losing team the player loses no points at all?

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

Players are already doing it (not reading the mini map, fighting off point, some players avoid all fights and runs around capping). Regardless if they do it on purpose or not, The point is to reward players who actually try to play the match when the match is already unplayable. ie: on a loosing team, when half the team is standing in the holding area being idle, and one players is doing their absolute best trying to make a different in the game and all they get are top stats.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

Abelisk.4527:

What do you think? Should top stats affect rating loss/gain? What if by gaining all top stats in a losing team the player loses no points at all?

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

Then why bother even having stats that mean absolutely nothing and contribute nothing to personal gain?

At the very least make top stats affect your MMR by a very marginal amount.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Top stats already give pips. Unless people want MORE pips?

Who cares about pips? It’s a linear progression model that you’ll gain just by playing. By having it affect MMR + means your effort isn’t in vain when you lose while carrying the team.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

Thats exactly what top stats do allready.

The vast majority of players that communicate about a game after a win / loss refer to their top stats to measure their value for the teams succes. Look at the OP for example.

I cant count the times where i was defending our only remaining node vs 2-3 while the rest of my team was chasing “top stats”.

In all honesty, I am perfectly fine with topstats not giving anything what so ever. To think, that those stats indicate any kind of skill is plain wrong. Some classes are designed to do better than others regarding certain aspects. Just because a DH has top damage, doesn’t mean he did well…especially when their other teammates dont have damage classes.

Just some examples:
Druid and Ele on the same team. Ele will most likely do more damage AND more healing than the druid, and yet can a good druid be more of a playmaker than a good ele.

Or, a thief +1s a 1v1 on any node, downs the enemy with a quick burst and immediately leaves without even getting a single tick on the node.

Locuz.2651:

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

Thats exactly what top stats do allready.

The vast majority of players that communicate about a game after a win / loss refer to their top stats to measure their value for the teams succes. Look at the OP for example.

I cant count the times where i was defending our only remaining node vs 2-3 while the rest of my team was chasing “top stats”.

I mean all this says really is that how top stats are determined should be changed. For your example, defending 1v2 or 1v3 should be given you a lot more points towards the defensive top stat than if you were 1v1. It doesn’t mean that top stats are flawed, just that how they are determined needs some work.

OriOri.8724:

Locuz.2651:

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

No. I don’t want to encourage people to go after top stats over winning the game.

Thats exactly what top stats do allready.

The vast majority of players that communicate about a game after a win / loss refer to their top stats to measure their value for the teams succes. Look at the OP for example.

I cant count the times where i was defending our only remaining node vs 2-3 while the rest of my team was chasing “top stats”.

I mean all this says really is that how top stats are determined should be changed. For your example, defending 1v2 or 1v3 should be given you a lot more points towards the defensive top stat than if you were 1v1. It doesn’t mean that top stats are flawed, just that how they are determined needs some work.

Top stats are clearly flawed.

Player 1 who has the highest top damage took a minute to down his enemy and take the point.
Player 2 with the lowest damage killed his enemy on his first or maybe 2nd burst, 10 seconds to take the point.

Who was more effective?

OriOri.8724:

I mean all this says really is that how top stats are determined should be changed. For your example, defending 1v2 or 1v3 should be given you a lot more points towards the defensive top stat than if you were 1v1. It doesn’t mean that top stats are flawed, just that how they are determined needs some work.

That will not do anything…

Ill put it in to a very simple example to make you understand why top stats in general are a very poor measuring tool:

Player A:

- Defended (often the only remaining) points solo vs 2-3.
- Didnt die once and still managed to kill 10 ppl solo.
- Did 400k dmg.

Player B:

- Chased and fought random solo thieves, mesmers etc with 2 teammates.
- Died 15 times but killed 15 aswell.
- Did 420k dmg.

Player A gets 1 top stat “defense”…..and player B gets 2 "kills"and “damage done”.

According to the OP player B needs to gain more rating than player A.

Do you agree with him?

@Locuz you completely missed my point. I never agreed with OP in this thread. Not once. I agreed that the implementation of top stats leaves a lot to be desired. And just like defense, if you can keep 2 or 3 players on the other team occupied for a long time than your offensive stats should reflect that. These shouldn’t ba based off of raw numbers but on how effective you were, and currently they don’t reflect that.

What I meant about players already are going to try to achieve top stats, because it is fun, it is good so why not reward for people actually trying to do it.