Guild Wars 2

This is more crazy buffs to thieves, mesmer and evasion in general. Which is already too strong. So you actually remove counterplay with these changes. Really this isn’t complicated so I am shocked you guys cannot see these issues.

When doing design you need to consider unintended consequences. I mean, no doubt these changes will happen and make the game way worse. So whatever.

To break it down for those who do not understand:
1, Currently there is a ton of damage avoidance with no counter play such as zerker stance, endure pain, mesmer distoration spam, blurred frenzy, thieves with 9 dodges in a row.
2, The only thing barely keeping this stuff in check is uncounterable damage, which a huge part of is hydro and geomancy sigils.
3, The only time you can actually damage a thief or mesmer as a condi necro is to do some sort of weapon swap on them because its instant. Even then you need luck.

Changing things in this way without changing the amount of evade spam in the game is just awful and disrupts balance considerably.

*If you made these changes with sustain nerfs then that would actually help the game to not suck completely. But I have no faith in the ability of anet to do sustain nerfs lol. *

The fact they are considering these changes shows pvp is dead and they are panicking. When you remove all the pve rewards nobody will play because NOBODY plays pvp for fun. Because it sucks and is not fun.

Might i suggest one that i don’t see on the list that might work given the nature of PvP.

Sigil of Compelled Action
- On Swap (radius TBD) Taunt Enemies in the Area(2s).

Anonymouse.4760:

Most importantly, there needs to be sigils that work well for other classes.

For example

sigil of sleight “increases damage dealt from the side or behind by 8%”
which would work nicely for a thief.

sigil of judgement “increase your damage dealt by 3% +1% for every boon you have” ( maximum of 8% )
this would work nicely for revenants

In this way you have control over the damage modifiers you receive, and aren’t at the mercy of whether or not your necro condi bombs a target or if your target is a boon heavy class or not. This promotes more reliable and less RNG gameplay.

This. If they are really going with a massive sigil removal ( I think a lot of people are missing the part about how everything not listed is being removed. Not nerfed, flat out DELETED. ) In which case they need to make sure every class gets something.

Anonymouse.4760:

As has been already said, sigil of punishment and and compounding are really worthless sigils. Force was essentially a 100% better version of these sigils and still wasn’t used, so to have worse versions of force competing with the same condi sigils is just silly.

To be fair, Force isn’t taken because Air/Fire/Blood still exist. I’m pretty sure they’re also trying to tone down raw burst as well with these changes. Though I agree with your concerns about Condi, at least its damage is still dealt over time and cleansable.

As for the proposals, 8% damage increase is definitely too high relative to what they’re offering anyway, though I could see 5% versions of your proposals being included. That said, I really wish they would solve the problem by offering a way to get unique effects without weapon swapping. Daredevil runes-esque buffs on dodge, next hit, whatever with appropriate cooldowns and similar effects would be a better alternative and more in line with the current design goals in my opinion.

Either way, you’re right that thieves, druids, and even some engineer builds are really hurting from a lack of useful sigils.

Looks like there will be no valuable sigil for ele…even for healbot…it would be nice that any dev could explain what ele’s could use because kinda nothing you proposed is any alternative for renewal, leaching, transference or even blood.

Because you know ele doesn’t have any build diversity…so why are you nerfing one thing that is playable?

I hope these don’t find their way to pve/wvw.

It’s wired that once again there is the removal of necessary precision from condition builds with the sigil of earth change, just like it was removed from sharpened edges. What’s even worse is this also directly nerfs druid staff trait Primal Echoes because the on swap sigils don’t produce a strike. More pigeonhole into Druidic Clarity.

Anonymouse.4760:

Most importantly, there needs to be sigils that work well for other classes.

For example

sigil of sleight “increases damage dealt from the side or behind by 8%”
which would work nicely for a thief.

sigil of judgement “increase your damage dealt by 3% +1% for every boon you have” ( maximum of 8% )
this would work nicely for revenants

In this way you have control over the damage modifiers you receive, and aren’t at the mercy of whether or not your necro condi bombs a target or if your target is a boon heavy class or not. This promotes more reliable and less RNG gameplay.

Why is it that these sigils should be allowed up to 8%, when the other ones are capped at 5%? That’s the opposite of balance. This is creating sigils that are unquestionably better than alternatives, which is something that the balance team should strive to avoid

OriOri.8724:

Anonymouse.4760:

Most importantly, there needs to be sigils that work well for other classes.

For example

sigil of sleight “increases damage dealt from the side or behind by 8%”
which would work nicely for a thief.

sigil of judgement “increase your damage dealt by 3% +1% for every boon you have” ( maximum of 8% )
this would work nicely for revenants

In this way you have control over the damage modifiers you receive, and aren’t at the mercy of whether or not your necro condi bombs a target or if your target is a boon heavy class or not. This promotes more reliable and less RNG gameplay.

Why is it that these sigils should be allowed up to 8%, when the other ones are capped at 5%? That’s the opposite of balance. This is creating sigils that are unquestionably better than alternatives, which is something that the balance team should strive to avoid

OriOri is it your life purpose to come up with extraordinarily simple-minded responses to every post? Anet should hire you.

Mr Godlike.6098:

Looks like there will be no valuable sigil for ele…even for healbot…it would be nice that any dev could explain what ele’s could use because kinda nothing you proposed is any alternative for renewal, leaching, transference or even blood.

Because you know ele doesn’t have any build diversity…so why are you nerfing one thing that is playable?

There wasn’t a sigil that made the Ele a top tier pick, it was only a supplement to an already good class.

Your Ele is in the same boat as everyone else besides, they said they’ll talk to the balance team about these changes. That means IF they think your Ele needs a buffed in s7, he will.

On-swap sigils? Good place? lol

IMO, on-swap sigils should be gone from this game. Even defensive ones. They don’t promote any active or counter-play whatsoever, it’s sneaky and passive. There’s just no visible way to counter weapon swap effects without first getting hit by them. It’s just unnecessary power creep.

Well, thanks to the condition buffs in this patch and now with the sigil buffs, I have no reason to even step foot in pvp ever again. I see that the elite-specced, powercreep, condi meta is still on the agenda. Well, not me. I hate the condi meta to the bone and will not accept it.

I STAY quitted.

Yeah after thinking about this for a couple hours I’ve come to the decision that this idea of revamping sigils is an utterly BAD idea for pvp. It does nothing to really increase the quality of the game. If you want to reduce rng, just make on crits into on hits and nerf accordingly. All this change does is force the balance team into trying to figure out what will be different with 0 beta testing from anyone gold tier or higher. Aka bad Balance for at least 2 Balance cycles (8 months in gw2).

Just scrap this idea. It’s not worth it.

How about this for a sigil:

sigil of exhaustion (or something): when you swap weapons while in combat your next attack will disable dodging from your target for 1 sec

If immobilise hate sigils are allowed to exist then why not one to counter the brainless dodge spamming of a certain class. Would only effect natural dodges not weapon ones.

OriOri.8724:

Why is it that these sigils should be allowed up to 8%, when the other ones are capped at 5%? That’s the opposite of balance. This is creating sigils that are unquestionably better than alternatives, which is something that the balance team should strive to avoid

Let me put it to you this way, because it is a lot more fair in PvP than a 5% damage modifier as your only option.

Lets say we take a semi-realistic scenario like you kill someone in 9 seconds using only a Force Sigil if we take a basic HP pool of something like 18-21k that means it took about 9 seconds to deal something around 23-26k damage if they used their heal and you are using a Force sigil. In that 9 seconds without any extra healing a Force sigil gave you a maximum of 1300 less damage you had to deal to the target not counting condis, buff damage or any damage which isn’t effected by Force if after 9 secconds you simply 1 shot their entire health bar. Right now a Sigil of Air provides anywhere from 800-1500~ damage depending on class, vuln and might stacks on a 3 second cooldown. If you want to remove free damage and you remove sigils like that it’s fine because a Sigil of Air can contribute upwards of 3 times the damage or more in a PvP scenario realistically.

But here’s the thing about Force sigil right. What if you can’t reliably do 26k damage every 9 seconds? What if you can’t even consistently HIT your target every 9 seconds because of reasons?(block, evade, invlun, line of sight, you or they have to run). You start losing a lot of damage in those scenarios because you aren’t even applying any damage to actually enhance. A realistic PvP scenario means you can only deal damage to your opponent occasionally, such as maybe every 3 seconds?, where a Sigil of Air can provide its maximum value without even requiring you to hit for 3 seconds and on top of that it doesn’t require you to actually do a certain amount of damage to get the same damage increase. This is why Sigil of Force is already not used because even in the absolute best case scenarios it’s not that much damage.

The proposed new sigils for most classes would not even be 5% damage at all times meaning they will be even less useful than a Force sigil is now. The sad thing is it’s not even that the Sigils don’t increase your damage enough. It’s that the condi sigils still increase your damage by a lot and the utility sigils don’t fit the playstyle of a lot of builds. If you just completely removed sigils or made them purely not increase your damage in any way outside of synergy then it would be fine. Instead we have kitten like a condi class being able to pump out a 560 dmg Bleed every 3 seconds not even counting condition duration or might stacks. Like why is this even fair when you gut all the other options we had.

Saiyan.1704:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Looks like there will be no valuable sigil for ele…even for healbot…it would be nice that any dev could explain what ele’s could use because kinda nothing you proposed is any alternative for renewal, leaching, transference or even blood.

Because you know ele doesn’t have any build diversity…so why are you nerfing one thing that is playable?

There wasn’t a sigil that made the Ele a top tier pick, it was only a supplement to an already good class.

Your Ele is in the same boat as everyone else besides, they said they’ll talk to the balance team about these changes. That means IF they think your Ele needs a buffed in s7, he will.

Good? Healbot that can’t carry on his own? That is only usable in esl comps only because necro/rev sustain doesn’t exists in teamfights? That he’s rotation is to follow necro/rev in ranked and expecting them to do their job because if not then both them and ele (no matter how good he is) leave their team in 3v5 match?

Yes healbot is strong…in ts 5 man premade. In ranked he can only go duo q with necro/rev have really big faith in them.

Proposed changes are nerfs (not big nerf hammer – I am not panicking or something), because removed sigils were only usable ones in matter of ele that doesn’t have any build diversity. It’s not fair move devs.

While i like the idea of rebalancing them and more diversity, to me what the proposed list is now, feels so weak, that i might not even bother to select sigils when i’m in hurry for pvp match. So bad they are. Now they are a must include. For instance sigil of leeching/blood, make certain builds a lot more survivable, because they give that ‘slight’ extra push to just outsurvive certain insane bursts (backstab etc). Without them? Boom lots of ppl insta die. And these sigils? No solution to ultra burst, and no solution to one trick ponies, to make them ‘multi trick ponies’ as they did now.

Basically, class traits/skills, damage modifiers etc will now be crucially more important then sigils. That will make the balance gap bigger much bigger.

Ps if you even THINK about removing those sigils from pve (like air, force, fire), plz for love of god don’t… You’d basically kill a big part of customizability. Plz don’t…

Also while sigil balance may not be optimal, most have a certain ‘thril’ to them at the moment, that with the list Evan published will not be there anymore. Like ok i stealth, hold hold hold NOW! and hope your air/fire proc, then quickly escape. Or you are almost death, swap to your ranged weapon use it’s evade (if it has that), then hit enemy with leeching/blood proc. Woops 2k hp (definitely not that much), but it can buy you the time you need to to get your normal damage/survival rotation up again. Now sigil that you list are basically:

I have my build, and i do not extend that build anymore. However I pick a lotery ticket, that i can hardcounter a few buidls in game, wich build is unknown, you pick random. Like the reveal when swapping. That counters thief, mesmer, maybe some others. But that’s it. On necro it will never do anything. and then wich enemies do you get in game? pretty unknown right? So it’s a huge gamble IF it’s usefull or not. Any sigil should always be usefull even to a minimal degree of doing something like 100 extra damage. Most sigils (especially the 10 or so that are meta) do that just fine (even if you nerf them some). It’s the non used sigils that are the prob and need a boost. Removing the bad ones, and nerfing the existing ones to the old bad ones, no no no. Not good. Sigils will no longer be an extension so your build.

They will be: Fire, water, Air, earth sigils

Water counters fire
Air counters fire
Fire counters earth
Earth counters water

I know this example isn’t how elements work, but i quickly wanted to give an example of how i feel of current sigils.

your sigil has only 25% to be effective. You said you wanted RNG to be gone! Choosing Water sigil, and HOPING your enemie is fire, but he isn’t, and you fail = RNG!

Hey Evan,

I won’t go into deeper discussion, just one thing. Current state of swap sigils and possibility of double-swap burst is a big thing in Revenant’s toolkit. If your proposed changes go through, keep it in mind, as it could be a significant hit. Consider bringing back some Staff #5 damage, since Leeching+Hydro swap would not be a thing.

Oh boy. Changes!

I’m just gonna go down the list. If I skip something, I don’t have anything to comment on it b/c it’s fine. This is from a competitive 5v5 perspective. I can’t speak for solo/duo queue.

On hit sigils:

Fraility: Fraility is kind of weak compared to Earth and Strength. I don’t know if it’ll be used ever. It gives you…a grand total of 3 extra vulnerability, under ideal circumstances. As opposed to Sigil of Strength, which gives you 3 or even more stacks of might if you have boon duration.

On-swap

Sigil of Agility: This is fine. Good changes.

Sigil of Battle: Maybe increase duration of might. 5 seconds is a very short time. Possibly 4 stacks of might for 9 or 10 seconds?

Sigil of Doom: Good change, but I still think it should be closely looked at. I still think that if you’re having conditions like Cripple or Chill apply for only 2 or 3 seconds, you need to treat Poison similarly. I’m going to assume the reason you guys didn’t make Cripple or Chill apply for EDIT: more than 2-3 seconds is because they’re just really annoying if they cripple you for, like, 7 seconds.. Poison is similarly annoying. Good changes, though. Five seconds is already kinda straddling the line between ‘good’ and ‘bad’, but I would consider knocking it down to three. A lot of builds already have a lot of condition duration. Five seconds would result in near perma-poison. And, for the purposes of 1v1’s, a lot of power builds can just kinda toss on doom sigil and have a crazy advantage against the other dude, some times.

Sigil of Exposure: Maybe increase to 6 seconds.

Sigil of Stagnation: This is never going to be used. This sigil is kind of doomed. You can’t really make it ‘good’ by making it apply a lot of cripple, because it’ll be super duper annoying, and honestly be super unfun to play against, so…rip sigil of stagnation.

Sigil of Hydromancy: Same as Stagnation. I would honestly add the damage back, but, if it’s going for your guys’ vision of the game, it works.

Sigil of Revelation: I feel like this is something that’s going to be too niche to be a real thing, and even then, I think the AoE on it is too tiny. I really don’t like the idea of this sigil. I don’t think it should be added. There’s already too much random stuff that can stop a stealthed Thief in most metas.

Sigil of Escape: …I don’t know about this one lmao. I don’t like it. I really don’t think it should be added. It seems kind of…idk. Kind of silly. I would be pretty angry if my carefully thought of stealth burst was ruined by a sigil that was useless 99% of the time. I don’t think this should be added.

Sigil of Lethargy: Interesting. I’d say this has potential. I would honestly kind of reccomend having this not interract with conidition duration. I could see it getting really annoying.

And now, passive.

I think these’ll be ok. Maybe not good enough to matter? Maybe remove up to 5% for Sigil of Compounding. Maybe make it, like, 7%. Sigil of Punishment is…idk. I think it should be kept at 5%. Again, I don’t know if it’ll matter. I think people will almost always pick Fire or Air just b/c more DPS increase. I don’t like making those sigils worse than this. This sigil punishes having boons on you, which is kinda counter intuitive IMO.

Are going the new sigils on swap Will have a icon like for example the old Doom sigil?
If Yes, these sigil change would be nice.
I only want to say that your new passive sigils are not much desiderable. They Need a rework or maybe just forget about them and dont add them.

p.s.: to be honest you can do a better job and promote a better sinergy to rework at the same time all the runes, or at least the most used.

aerodynamique.5267:

Oh boy. Changes!

I’m just gonna go down the list. If I skip something, I don’t have anything to comment on it b/c it’s fine. This is from a competitive 5v5 perspective. I can’t speak for solo/duo queue.

On hit sigils:

Fraility: Fraility is kind of weak compared to Earth and Strength. I don’t know if it’ll be used ever. It gives you…a grand total of 3 extra vulnerability, under ideal circumstances. As opposed to Sigil of Strength, which gives you 3 or even more stacks of might if you have boon duration.

On-swap

Sigil of Agility: This is fine. Good changes.

Sigil of Battle: Maybe increase duration of might. 5 seconds is a very short time. Possibly 4 stacks of might for 9 or 10 seconds?

Sigil of Doom: Good change, but I still think it should be closely looked at. I still think that if you’re having conditions like Cripple or Chill apply for only 2 or 3 seconds, you need to treat Poison similarly. I’m going to assume the reason you guys didn’t make Cripple or Chill apply for 2-3 seconds is because they’re just really annoying if they cripple you for, like, 7 seconds.. Poison is similarly annoying. Good changes, though. Five seconds is already kinda straddling the line between ‘good’ and ‘bad’, but I would consider knocking it down to three. A lot of builds already have a lot of condition duration. Five seconds would result in near perma-poison. And, for the purposes of 1v1’s, a lot of power builds can just kinda toss on doom sigil and have a crazy advantage against the other dude, some times.

Sigil of Exposure: Maybe increase to 6 seconds.

Sigil of Stagnation: This is never going to be used. This sigil is kind of doomed. You can’t really make it ‘good’ by making it apply a lot of cripple, because it’ll be super duper annoying, and honestly be super unfun to play against, so…rip sigil of stagnation.

Sigil of Hydromancy: Same as Stagnation. I would honestly add the damage back, but, if it’s going for your guys’ vision of the game, it works.

Sigil of Revelation: I feel like this is something that’s going to be too niche to be a real thing, and even then, I think the AoE on it is too tiny. I really don’t like the idea of this sigil. I don’t think it should be added. There’s already too much random stuff that can stop a stealthed Thief in most metas.

Sigil of Escape: …I don’t know about this one lmao. I don’t like it. I really don’t think it should be added. It seems kind of…idk. Kind of silly. I would be pretty angry if my carefully thought of stealth burst was ruined by a sigil that was useless 99% of the time. I don’t think this should be added.

Sigil of Lethargy: Interesting. I’d say this has potential. I would honestly kind of reccomend having this not interract with conidition duration. I could see it getting really annoying.

And now, passive.

I think these’ll be ok. Maybe not good enough to matter? Maybe remove up to 5% for Sigil of Compounding. Maybe make it, like, 7%. Sigil of Punishment is…idk. I think it should be kept at 5%. Again, I don’t know if it’ll matter. I think people will almost always pick Fire or Air just b/c more DPS increase. I don’t like making those sigils worse than this. This sigil punishes having boons on you, which is kinda counter intuitive IMO.

All sigils not listed will not exist according to devs.

I like the idea of less RNG, but the removal of Air and Fire Sigils worry me. Most (if not all) power based builds use one or both of those sigil as part of their build. They provide those finishing bits of damage that determine if someone goes down or if they stay up. It’s RNG, but reliable RNG. You should know what your crit chance is, and decide if you want those sigil based on that (I’ll take one with anything over 50% crit chance).

I’m also concerned about the boon application sigil. They sound great, but I feel they are more of a trap to anyone that uses them due to Necromancer’s ability to corrupt boons so quickly. Combine that with the power builds taking a hit from the loss of Air and Fire, which I believe would cause a rise in hybrid or condi builds which Necro does very well… it just sounds like it would spiral out of control in favor of Necro (this coming from a PvP Necro).

Just my 2 bits on it.

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

aerodynamique.5267:

Oh boy. Changes!

I’m just gonna go down the list. If I skip something, I don’t have anything to comment on it b/c it’s fine. This is from a competitive 5v5 perspective. I can’t speak for solo/duo queue.

On hit sigils:

Fraility: Fraility is kind of weak compared to Earth and Strength. I don’t know if it’ll be used ever. It gives you…a grand total of 3 extra vulnerability, under ideal circumstances. As opposed to Sigil of Strength, which gives you 3 or even more stacks of might if you have boon duration.

On-swap

Sigil of Agility: This is fine. Good changes.

Sigil of Battle: Maybe increase duration of might. 5 seconds is a very short time. Possibly 4 stacks of might for 9 or 10 seconds?

Sigil of Doom: Good change, but I still think it should be closely looked at. I still think that if you’re having conditions like Cripple or Chill apply for only 2 or 3 seconds, you need to treat Poison similarly. I’m going to assume the reason you guys didn’t make Cripple or Chill apply for 2-3 seconds is because they’re just really annoying if they cripple you for, like, 7 seconds.. Poison is similarly annoying. Good changes, though. Five seconds is already kinda straddling the line between ‘good’ and ‘bad’, but I would consider knocking it down to three. A lot of builds already have a lot of condition duration. Five seconds would result in near perma-poison. And, for the purposes of 1v1’s, a lot of power builds can just kinda toss on doom sigil and have a crazy advantage against the other dude, some times.

Sigil of Exposure: Maybe increase to 6 seconds.

Sigil of Stagnation: This is never going to be used. This sigil is kind of doomed. You can’t really make it ‘good’ by making it apply a lot of cripple, because it’ll be super duper annoying, and honestly be super unfun to play against, so…rip sigil of stagnation.

Sigil of Hydromancy: Same as Stagnation. I would honestly add the damage back, but, if it’s going for your guys’ vision of the game, it works.

Sigil of Revelation: I feel like this is something that’s going to be too niche to be a real thing, and even then, I think the AoE on it is too tiny. I really don’t like the idea of this sigil. I don’t think it should be added. There’s already too much random stuff that can stop a stealthed Thief in most metas.

Sigil of Escape: …I don’t know about this one lmao. I don’t like it. I really don’t think it should be added. It seems kind of…idk. Kind of silly. I would be pretty angry if my carefully thought of stealth burst was ruined by a sigil that was useless 99% of the time. I don’t think this should be added.

Sigil of Lethargy: Interesting. I’d say this has potential. I would honestly kind of reccomend having this not interract with conidition duration. I could see it getting really annoying.

And now, passive.

I think these’ll be ok. Maybe not good enough to matter? Maybe remove up to 5% for Sigil of Compounding. Maybe make it, like, 7%. Sigil of Punishment is…idk. I think it should be kept at 5%. Again, I don’t know if it’ll matter. I think people will almost always pick Fire or Air just b/c more DPS increase. I don’t like making those sigils worse than this. This sigil punishes having boons on you, which is kinda counter intuitive IMO.

All sigils not listed will not exist according to devs.

OH NOOOO

I rescind my statement about the air/fire being more useful, then. I think that the passive boon sigil just shouldn’t exist, then lol

Cal Cohen.3527:

We’ve decided that Sigil of Lethargy (slow) will not be a thing that happens.

Thanks for changing your mind on this.

Just from a quick assessment of the forum, when we look at the sigil changes everyone proposed in the last thread and the sigil changes you made in this thread, it’s pretty clear what is happening I think.

Consensus is that direct damage sigils or sigils that provide major improvements to damage are not wanted, mostly.

Consensus is that people want more sigil selection options.

Consensus is that people are looking for sigils that add something to gameplay. Especially in the way of utility, or to make up for something they can’t achieve on their class.

I think the discrepancies are that yes there are new sigils like Revelation and Lethargy that achieve the last point very well, but there isn’t enough.

A few things people are looking for in sigils:
*Burst damage options
*Unique condition application
*Sustain options
*Counter play options
*Gameplay augmenting options
*Unique boon application

And they seem to want choice, a larger selection, sigils that are perhaps more powerful, but deal less damage.

You could take a game play augmenting option like bloodlust, this is just about never used, but the one time that it is, it is a key part of that build and one that people consciously play around having.

It’s being removed but there is not a suitable replacement for it.

There is not a burst damage option that can be used outside of mid combat
There isn’t a sustain option a squishy class can depend on.
Support roles don’t have an option that adds anything to their gameplay.
Boon dependant classes are still fishing for tiny might uptime.

Maybe it’s worth looking back through some of the sigils the players recommended, because while true some of them are crazy, a number of them I personally would be happy to have.

This is my little bit that I want to contribute to the game and making it better. I hope you agree with me.

My only gripe was Sigil of Revelation, it’s a direct hit on Profession that specialize into Stealth and a direct nerf to off hand Pistol,Scrappers and Druids other than that it’s been a Two step forward in a networking company that specialize into Innovation; i’m not saying Koreans will not like it but limiting some of the options existed instead of adding? probably Germans will do, and hopefully none of this Proposal pass the board, unless money talks which i assumed they good at it.

Also regards on those passive sigils, i thought these pvp Team was a Team? did they change name into sigils and amulets Team?
Hopefully they can bring more people on their World Marketing Championship because limiting the current option in a Team base game was not a good idea; if i were them imma step down and never look back.

As a thief player I have a couple issues with Revelation. I do not have an issue with the reveal stealth within that range, but the fact that a simple weapon swap can negate us blowing a CD with blinding powder or 8 initiative if we combine black powder with heartseeker to stealth.

How do you guys even remotely think that is balanced?

Would you find it fair that if the remaining stealth duration is longer than the reveal duration is that we get stealth reapplied?

Just to clarify, the list in the original post are the only options once this change goes through?

Have to say, I really appreciate ANet devs previewing changes along with explanation of the philosophy behind changes. As well as responding to feedback. It’s really refreshing and hope it continues.

No sigil of Ice?

That means necro no longer has ranged chill application outside of Staff. (or focus but who takes that thing?) Which indirectly nerfs Life Force generation b/c of chilling victory.

only these ?
no more other sigils ? : (

On-Hit:
We initially did not think on-hit sigils we have a place in the game given our goals, but after feedback from the forum, we decided it makes sense to have some consistent-effect sigils for classes that may not want to weapon swap as often as possible.
Sigil of Earth
On hit: Inflict Bleeding (5 Seconds)
(Cooldown: 3 Seconds)
Sigil of Frailty
On hit: Inflict Vulnerability (10 Seconds)
(Cooldown: 3 Seconds)
Sigil of Strength
On hit: Gain Might (10 Seconds)
(Cooldown: 3 Second)
On-Swap:
Most on-swap sigils we felt were in a good place, but we wanted to emphasize them as burst-effects in contrast to on-hit sigils. Some effects are shortened, but intensified. Strikes are removed from sigils like Hydromancy and Geomancy to fill our goal of less direct damage.
Sigil of Agility
Gain 5 seconds of swiftness and 1 second of quickness when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Battle
Gain 4 stacks of might (5 seconds) when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 seconds)
Sigil of Doom
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat inflicts Poison (5 seconds).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Energy
Gain 25% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 seconds)
Sigil of Exposure
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat inflicts 5 stacks of Vulnerability (5 Seconds).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Geomancy
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat inflicts 3 stacks of bleeding (5 Seconds).
(Cooldown: 9 seconds)
Sigil of Stagnation
Cripple nearby foes when swapping to this weapon while in combat (3 seconds, 240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Hydromancy
Chill nearby foes for when you swap to this weapon while in combat (2 Seconds, 240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 seconds)
Sigil of Intelligence
Your next three attacks after swapping to this weapon while in combat have a 100% critical chance.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Nullification
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat removes a Boon from your target.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Revelation
Reveal nearby foes when swapping to this weapon while in combat (240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Escape
Remove immobilize from yourself when swapping to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Lethargy
Your next attack after swapping to this weapon while in combat slows your target (2 Seconds).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Cleansing
New: Remove 1 condition when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)

why remove healing sigils ?

sigil of blood
sigil of water

edit
wait, what? you guys wanna remove all the sigils not listed in the op? wow that’s a pretty big change. I request you guys keep/change the following sigils:
sigil of impact (buff to 20%)
sigil of nullification (5sec icd 360 radius)
sigil of water
sigil of ice
welp. always good to see you guys making changes! hope it works out, cheers.
ps sigil of battle is way too stronk.

So what I’m understanding from your goals, you want to push more towards condi/bunkermeta with these changes and kill off burst oriented builds? Why just not delete thief and rev from pvp at this point? While you’re at it maybe remove dh aswell since without power build dh is left with burning build which is countered by 1 sigil. Counterplay achieved!

Sigil of Revelation
Reveal nearby foes when swapping to this weapon while in combat (240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)

Oh boy, inc massive QQ from thieves.

Pretty sure everyone will be running Sigil of Cleansing. Conditions are so rampant that we need all the cleansing we can get. Sigil of Nullification might also be run a lot more now to help counter boon spamming. Of course, we wouldn’t need these kind of powerful sigils if you just balanced your freaking game properly!

I very much like that you are reducing damage from sigils (as well as sustain from sigils), while keeping them interesting from a build perspective.

I personally think that you should have kept “Increase X duration by Y%” sigils, as they mean you are really trying to implement a solid strategy (bleeding opponents, chilling, burning, cc-ing, etc.). Similarly, giving 10% additional outgoing healing increases your build (at self-sacrifice) without being build or play-style defining. However, I don’t think 20% is right for every condi. 20% burning application is WAY stronger than 20% vuln application. I would also MUCH rather see opponents take these sigils as opposed to giving extra free procs that have just made condi builds bursty. In that vein, I am not a fan of geomancy, especially at 3 stacks.

Also, hydromancy as proposed will be a frequent pick at 2s, but stagnation (applies cripple) will never be picked at only 3s. A 2s chill not only slows MORE than the 3s cripple, it also messes up CD’s significantly.

I love that there is now a sigil that allows most classes to counterplay stealth, which to this point just lacks reasonable counters. Good thieves won’t really have any problems with this, but this definitely adds counterplay to druid and engie stealth resses.

Finally, I feel like there should be some on-crit sigils that give you stacking effects and don’t REALLY add RNG as much as they just promote building for precision. For instance, applying vuln, gaining might, building up to +X% damage, even applying 1 stack of bleed increase build decisions and synergy opportunities without being bursty and going “well I got procc’d to death”

still waiting to hear about sigil of cruelty making it to spvp like groucharoo was gonna do before leaving Anet

Zintrothen.1056:

Sigil of Revelation
Reveal nearby foes when swapping to this weapon while in combat (240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)

Oh boy, inc massive QQ from thieves.

Pretty sure everyone will be running Sigil of Cleansing. Conditions are so rampant that we need all the cleansing we can get. Sigil of Nullification might also be run a lot more now to help counter boon spamming. Of course, we wouldn’t need these kind of powerful sigils if you just balanced your freaking game properly!

They QQ is justified though. Thieves have to burn a cooldown or use half or more of their initiative to get a few seconds of stealth that can get negated by a simple weapon swap.

That is is no way balanced especially since it has no counterplay to it.

Sure, let’s just completely kitten on the only high tier sPvP thief build…while not allowing the other sets to ever be comparable, or be viable at that skill level, because your balance team just doesn’t know how to handle and balance thief properly; nor have they learned over the course of almost 5 years now.

First, let me say that I am intrigued by these changes!

However, has any thought been given to how the power shift from on-crit sigils to on-swap sigils will specifically affect the Engineer, Warrior, Revenant and Elementalist classes?

On the side of receiving high benefits under this system are classes that can run weapon swap procs at a higher rate than others— Revenant and Warrior. Specifically, Warrior with Fast Hands will again make far and away the best use of this new paradigm. The Warrior will be running 2x unique weapon swap procs every 5 seconds. A Revenant can achieve enhanced results by juggling weapon swaps and legend swaps properly.

At the opposite end of this, classes like Elementalist and Engineer are penalized by their class mechanic that limits them to just one weapon and one pair of sigils. These classes previously benefited from having viable on-crit and on-hit sigils, because their profession mechanic only really benefits from these types of sigils. Now that these types of sigils have been removed and/or neutered, I am wondering how you see this playing out.

Are you fine with the way this proposal affects these 4 classes? Is this give/take intended? As a primarily Engineer main I am a little concerned about this change.

anet have you ever thought of setting a pts(public test server) inviting high/top players to actually try your incoming patches?

I say this because you just proposed a change that will determine heavily the meta, and because you have proved that you can’t balance your classes properly I fear this will get of out hands again.

ESO is a great example, every time they announce a patch they put the pts so players can actually test the changes before they apply them, you can’t balance a game based on spamming skills without cds tho but gw2 is different and it would be really great to have a pts for inc patches.

Not going to focus on numbers as much as effect.

Take Another Look

Doom The healing reduction from poison can be strong for sustain builds which don’t normally have it. I’d argue for removing it.

Geomancy Still seems too strong, since it’s applying all its damage in that 5s window. Maybe make it like Intelligence and have each of the next 3 attacks inflict one bleed?

Stagnation Basically the same thing as Hydromancy.

Nullification Removing a single boon has a heavy RNG element. Get the might stacks and it’s amazing. Get regen or retaliation and it’s not that great. Boon removal is probably best left to profession skills.

Possible Additions

Renewal or Water It would be nice to have another support sigil in the mix.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

why remove healing sigils ?

sigil of blood
sigil of water

Blood was extra damage and also a noticeable amount of healing for DPS builds. If it did come back, the damage and healing would need to be much less, to the point where it was barely noticeable.

Good to know you’re removing a majority of the sigils that make revenant still barely viable.
~ blood, air, leeching.
Rev’s damage is already pretty much bad in comparison to the rest of the classes.
GG close game.

Paul.2054:

OriOri.8724:

Why is it that these sigils should be allowed up to 8%, when the other ones are capped at 5%? That’s the opposite of balance. This is creating sigils that are unquestionably better than alternatives, which is something that the balance team should strive to avoid

Let me put it to you this way, because it is a lot more fair in PvP than a 5% damage modifier as your only option.

Lets say we take a semi-realistic scenario like you kill someone in 9 seconds using only a Force Sigil if we take a basic HP pool of something like 18-21k that means it took about 9 seconds to deal something around 23-26k damage if they used their heal and you are using a Force sigil. In that 9 seconds without any extra healing a Force sigil gave you a maximum of 1300 less damage you had to deal to the target not counting condis, buff damage or any damage which isn’t effected by Force if after 9 secconds you simply 1 shot their entire health bar. Right now a Sigil of Air provides anywhere from 800-1500~ damage depending on class, vuln and might stacks on a 3 second cooldown. If you want to remove free damage and you remove sigils like that it’s fine because a Sigil of Air can contribute upwards of 3 times the damage or more in a PvP scenario realistically.

But here’s the thing about Force sigil right. What if you can’t reliably do 26k damage every 9 seconds? What if you can’t even consistently HIT your target every 9 seconds because of reasons?(block, evade, invlun, line of sight, you or they have to run). You start losing a lot of damage in those scenarios because you aren’t even applying any damage to actually enhance. A realistic PvP scenario means you can only deal damage to your opponent occasionally, such as maybe every 3 seconds?, where a Sigil of Air can provide its maximum value without even requiring you to hit for 3 seconds and on top of that it doesn’t require you to actually do a certain amount of damage to get the same damage increase. This is why Sigil of Force is already not used because even in the absolute best case scenarios it’s not that much damage.

The proposed new sigils for most classes would not even be 5% damage at all times meaning they will be even less useful than a Force sigil is now. The sad thing is it’s not even that the Sigils don’t increase your damage enough. It’s that the condi sigils still increase your damage by a lot and the utility sigils don’t fit the playstyle of a lot of builds. If you just completely removed sigils or made them purely not increase your damage in any way outside of synergy then it would be fine. Instead we have kitten like a condi class being able to pump out a 560 dmg Bleed every 3 seconds not even counting condition duration or might stacks. Like why is this even fair when you gut all the other options we had.

I understand that the new sigils of compounding and punishment are not all that great, I wasn’t trying to argue that they were. I am well aware that most of the time the bonus will be less than 5%. But that dodges my question.

Why introduce 2 new sigils that are almost the same thing, but then introduce a guaranteed 3% bonus damage, on top of the 5% that can stack. No one would ever, ever use the sigil of compounding or of punishment, because they could pick another sigil and have guaranteed 3% bonus damage on whatever compounding/punishment would have given them.

Same thing with the one that gave 8% extra damage from attacking from sides/back. No one would ever take compounding or punishment over this one, because this one is guaranteed to give a substantially higher damage bonus as long as you can maneuver correctly. The sigils aren’t balanced against each other.

Should the damage bonus be raised to 8%? That’s a different issue about whether the proposed sigils are too strong. But simply putting in sigils that are clear upgrades over others is not how to achieve good balance, all that will do is guarantee that 1 of those 2 new sigils would be in play, and the ones they improve on would never be used.

Asur.9178:

Sure, let’s just completely kitten on the only high tier sPvP thief build…while not allowing the other sets to ever be comparable, or be viable at that skill level, because your balance team just doesn’t know how to handle and balance thief properly; nor have they learned over the course of almost 5 years now.

Except d/p thief, as is, relies on stealth only for opener, escape, and respositioning/sneaky decap. D/P thief doesn’t really rely on backstab for damage, as a single shadow-shot does almost as much damage.

If you are referring to reducing the burst available, then yes, this really hurts thief, who can 75-0 most builds now (maybe 60-0 if a heavy class with no invulns).

They might compensate thief by removing other class’s invulns/increasing CD’s, which would be a great trade. They can also, maybe, give some damage back to weapon skills if needed, as you no longer rely on huge hits+procs to kill.

Overall, it depends on how they balance it, but I sincerely feel like thief will still be fine. It’s mostly a +1/decap role now, and it will still be tops for that role after any change.

Sigil of Revelation really kills off hand dagger thieves that rely on Cnd which is one of the harder skills to pull off for INI spent. Given it can only be pulled off withing melee range, a weapon swap will remove said thief from stealth immediately.

This skill is already hard to pull off with all of the blocks and dodges and the timing that is needed. CnD will warrant significant changes or you will end up with nothing but offhand pistol played by theif.

Somehow I doubt that Sigil of revelation is going to be used that much. It requires dropping a damage or cleanse sigil (which is useful against all opponents) for something that isn’t useful against all opponents.

I’m torn between wanting generosity to stay in in some form versus how actually not useful it’s been for the past year due to power creep offering far more cover condis than generosity is able to handle.

I don’t think geomancy needs to be gutted like that, at least keep it aoe?

revelation is precisely the type of reactive counterplay the game needs to keep stealth in check. the user risks being on a different weapon set in return for vision if they know almost exactly where the enemy is anyways. stealth classes aren’t that hard to fight against when they are predictable, but they are extremely annoying because there is very little you can currently do. this allows a predicted player to be targeted, so that one can access the plethora of skills that require a target. stealth is about being unpredictable, and this will help weed out the baddies who are just abusing the fact that they can’t be targeted.

Sigil of Frailty – On hit: Inflict Vulnerability (10 Seconds) – 3 second cooldown

• This should NOT be a thing. There are already dozens of skills that apply vulnerability (and not even for as long as this SIGIL). Same goes for Sigil of Exposure

Sigil of Energy is redundant. The classes that make use of constant Endurance already have a ton of passives/skills that keep it that way. No point for this Sigil rather than undoing a nerf for this specific problem.

Sigil of Escape is way too specific. No real point to waste a Sigil on something that specific and rare.

Sigil of Lethargy and Sigil of Hydromancy are the same thing. Just combine them into one Sigil and make the Chill kitten .

You have three On-hit Sigils for damage but nothing for support. Bring back: Sigil of Water

it already is a thing and it has a 2 sec icd and no one uses it anyways

Wait! You’re going to give conditions on-hit?

This means, for example, that a warrior can do a massive multi hit dps burst AND inflict stacked conditions at the same time? You’re talking about nuke level damage for War and ranger.

This will more or less turbo charge damage. That’s precisely the opposite of what we need.